285 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

KrAzY WiSh wrote...

Geth do not have a soul, neither does anyone else.

There is no way you can prove otherwise so the discussion need go no further.

EDIT: sorry to add this a little after posting. Would choosing the Synthesis ending give the Geth? If you use the op`s definition of soul.

As defined we can lay claim to having a soul. Some people choose not to as their right of a free-thinking individual.

I have no idea a fictional race merged with human dna gives what exactly? I don't like the option as too fictional for my taste. At best every geth would have an imprint of Shepard's soul or nothing still. Take your pick. I don't think sould would be disseminated so I go with 2.

[Catastrophy]

I thought you referred to the MP-Geth enemies, but OK:

Not sure what constitutes a soul and where we could find it. What about "cogito ergo sum"? It's a lot easier to recognize the state of something as sentient being. And I see a couple of these in SP.

[DriftingMustang]

The Angry One wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

They make decisions based on observation and evidence not by right and wrong or any moral concept. If their consensus said murder all organics to ensure our continuation they would do it with no qualms.

Oh you mean like how they killed the Quarians 300 years ago, and this is why there's no such person as Tali.

touche

[RethenX]

man, you guys like feeding me that same can of worms huh? *opens a new can of worms*

[InvincibleHero]

SebAusFR wrote...

I am always amazed that people cannot imagine the possibility that a self-aware machine would probably not ask questions such as "do I have a soul?". That's because the machine would recognise "soul" is a concept invented by some organic philosophers to explain something they did not understand. A sufficiently advanced IA consciousness would be based on the same principles as a human one, albeit with a different material substrate.

So technically, yes Geth have no souls. But Shepard or Tali do not have any either. All of them have consciousnesses that arose from the activity of a complex substrate (brain, CPUs, etc.). But I'm okay with using the word "soul" for the sake of the drama

Sorry I missed this.

If it had true self-awareness it would know the answer. It should have come to the conclusion in consensus no based on empirical evidence. Logic is absolute.

[BSpud]

You know who has no soul? MeerShep. Seriously, listen to it talk. It's dead inside.

Modifié par BeefheartSpud, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:03 .

[The Angry One]

RethenX wrote...

man, you guys like feeding me that same can of worms huh? *opens a new can of worms*

Worms have no soul.

[DriftingMustang]

InvincibleHero wrote...

SebAusFR wrote...

I am always amazed that people cannot imagine the possibility that a self-aware machine would probably not ask questions such as "do I have a soul?". That's because the machine would recognise "soul" is a concept invented by some organic philosophers to explain something they did not understand. A sufficiently advanced IA consciousness would be based on the same principles as a human one, albeit with a different material substrate.

So technically, yes Geth have no souls. But Shepard or Tali do not have any either. All of them have consciousnesses that arose from the activity of a complex substrate (brain, CPUs, etc.). But I'm okay with using the word "soul" for the sake of the drama

Sorry I missed this.

If it had true self-awareness it would know the answer. It should have come to the conclusion in consensus no based on empirical evidence. Logic is absolute.

 

not realy, do we have a soul has been an answer philosphers have been looking for for a while. an atheist would answer, no, no you dont and neither do I.

[sistersafetypin]

BeefheartSpud wrote...

You know who has no soul? MeerShep. Seriously, listen to it talk. It's dead inside.

Scares me a little, really 

[InvincibleHero]

The Angry One wrote...

I like how people assume the Quarian definition of a soul is the same as the human definition.
It may be, but we don't know. According to Quarian beliefs, humans may not even qualify the same way that some humans believe any aliens wouldn't.

This is an abstract. The question was not meant to demonstrate whether the Geth actually have a soul or not but to show the Geth reached a level of consciousness where they can think about these things.

Hey you're right it might not be. Shepard seems to agree with the notion and it is written by humans and using human terminology so it is a safe assumption.

Do geth think? Forget it not taking much more time with a different topic.

[Ageless Face]

InvincibleHero wrote...
Sorry I missed this.

If it had true self-awareness it would know the answer. It should have come to the conclusion in consensus no based on empirical evidence. Logic is absolute.

What? Do you know how many humans are asking the same thing?

They are asking in a religious manner. it's not about self awerness, Because souls are not something absolute.

[Muhvitus]

Life:
a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional plant or animal from a dead body b : a state of living characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
2
a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual

I think Geth fulfill those requirements.

[Anvos]

The Angry One wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

They make decisions based on observation and evidence not by right and wrong or any moral concept. If their consensus said murder all organics to ensure our continuation they would do it with no qualms.

Oh you mean like how they killed the Quarians 300 years ago, and this is why there's no such person as Tali.

sigh

All of the geth "memories" can be doubted as potential graphical file edits or complete fabrications rather than true memories since a robot's memories should largely be video files and not subjective images that change the view of the parties based on the viewers memories hence shepard should not see quarian's as in suits or geth as the most recent moble platform modles.

Not to mention even saying the geth memory isn't a complete lie, there is most likely a precusor file that you don't get to see when a geth program interjects into other programs determining how to pursue the creators stating that probability scenarios have shown an 90% chance of pursuing creator forces through the relay network outside of quarian space leading to intervention by the citadel and councial fleets leading to a 90% chance of geth network destruction.

[Omega2079]

I think if your reasoning is followed through op, we too are just biological machines. No different from them. We don't have a soul either. We're just a series of chemical reactions and we follow our deterministic, chemical programming.

Modifié par Omega2079, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:07 .

[Fuzzfro]

ElementL09 wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer.
/thread

+1
This pretty much simplifies a comment I was going to make.

Agreed.

[AlanC9]

InvincibleHero wrote...

You're going to have to prove the conscious beings part. Maybe you meant some other term.

As others have said, you don't get to put the burden of proof on us. You're the one making categorical statements, so you need to prove they're not conscious.

They are not life as defined. Note they created a new term synthetic life for the game. They are made of inanimate objects aka metal and glass etc and cannot be defined as life by any conventional means. Really they are simply lines of code a string of 1s and 0s. There is nothing else to them they replicate in strings of 1s and 0s by copying programs that are extant. They are animated by some power source not really defined is it battery electrical whatever. Thus 1 does not apply.

From what I linked above:

Others take a systemic viewpoint that does not necessarily depend on molecular chemistry. One systemic definition of life is that living things are self-organizing and autopoietic (self-producing). Variations of this definition include Stuart Kauffman's definition as an autonomous agent or a multi-agent system capable of reproducing itself or themselves, and of completing at least one thermodynamic work cycle.[33] Life can be modeled as a network of inferior negative feedbacks of regulatory mechanisms subordinated to a superior positive feedback formed by the potential of expansion and reproduction.[34] From a simplified perspective, life can be said to consist of things with the capacity for metabolism and motion,[20] or that life is self-reproduction "with variations"[35][36] or "with an error rate below the sustainability threshold."[36] Others take a systemic viewpoint that does not necessarily depend on molecular chemistry. One systemic definition of life is that living things are self-organizing and autopoietic (self-producing). Variations of this definition include Stuart Kauffman's definition as an autonomous agent or a multi-agent system capable of reproducing itself or themselves, and of completing at least one thermodynamic work cycle.[33] Life can be modeled as a network of inferior negative feedbacks of regulatory mechanisms subordinated to a superior positive feedback formed by the potential of expansion and reproduction.[34] From a simplified perspective, life can be said to consist of things with the capacity for metabolism and motion,[20] or that life is self-reproduction "with variations"[35][36] or "with an error rate below the sustainability threshold."[36] 

This fits the geth just fine.

Legion has exhibited no real spirituality in the game proper. Besides it is easy to invalidate as it specifies human beings.

Now we're going to need a definition of "spirituality." And again, you're making grandiose claims without even trying to offer proof.

And the definition does not specify human beings. Note the "or" -- bolded below for your convenience. This means that "all rational and spiritual" beings can be a sufficient criterion, depending on who's doing the defining.

2: the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe 

I loved the Legion/geth story. I just don't think they can be ever defined to be alive or have a soul. If someone created a geth on earth I would respect its right to exist as long as it did not endanger the well-being of humanity aka skynet doom and gloom. I don't think it will ever be possible that code can become self-aware. It can only ever do that which it was created for period.  

Neurons can become self-aware. Why not code? Again, an actual argument is customary.

[DriftingMustang]

Muhvitus wrote...

Life:
a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional plant or animal from a dead body b : a state of living characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
2
a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual

I think Geth fulfill those requirements.

yes, yes they do.

[What a Succulent Ass]

BeefheartSpud wrote...

Also what TAO and Random Jerkface say, like, ever.

Coincidentally, I was drafting up a ramble thread that addresses my Rannoch butthurt. It's tangentially related to this topic:

To create a bit of perspective, examining the validity of (a theoretical) artificial intelligence outside of fiction is already a thorny discussion. Qualia is not something that can be quantified or measured (or properly described, for that matter), as it is intuited only through introspection. Since it is presumed amongst humans through Theory of the Mind, there is the possibility that, regardless of how far technology develops, irrespective of how intelligent or "lifelike" a machine becomes, the fact that we built it could prevent us from accepting it as conscious. Whilst TM is (usually) automatically applied to pets and infants, one wonders what would happen if we could build a computer that perfectly simulates the human brain, one that has been given the experiences and inputs of a person. I'm willing to bet that, no matter how many black boxes or blind tests were given, once it was revealed to be a machine, the majority of people would retract their acceptance of it being "alive." I won't pretend to have any real knowledge of social psychology, but I theorise that this reluctance would be a byproduct of the fact that such recognition would also require us to accept our own consciousness as mechanistic. Simply said, humans love to attribute special meaning to our emotions and our ability to perceive stimuli, and the actions that result from these things are usually considered spontaneous and organic. We are much less eager to think of ourselves as living "machines" or our actions as the result of organic "programming." A lobster banging around in a pot of boiling water will be said to be feeling pain rather than "instinct" (for lack of a better word), but were we to build a robot that does the same thing within certain degree thresholds, we would attribute it to programming, not pain. It's possible, then, that the reality of AI becoming "alive" is not constrained by technology, but human pride.

OED wrote...

noun
1 the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.
2 [mass noun] emotional or intellectual energy or intensity, especially as revealed in a work of art or an artistic performance:
3 the essence or embodiment of a specified quality:
4 a person regarded with affection or pity:

IC, please provide a functional definition of "soul." By even engaging in the thread, all of us are tacitly agreeing it exists, but the onus is on you to give it. Otherwise this exercise is pointless; you are assuming your conclusion is true as a premise to prove your conclusion.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:13 .

[The Angry One]

Anvos wrote...

All of the geth "memories" can be doubted as potential graphical file edits or complete fabrications rather than true memories since a robot's memories should largely be video files and not subjective images that change the view of the parties based on the viewers memories hence shepard should not see quarian's as in suits or geth as the most recent moble platform modles.

The Consensus is truth, they are incapable of lying in there.
When Legion actually tries to lie to Shepard, it's terrible at it, constantly getting caught and tripping over itself.
Yet you think the Geth are somehow master manipulators. To what end?

I'll remind you that even the Quarians admit they started the war.
Also Raan, when faced with the Geth version of events, says that it differs from the Quarian's, but does not dismiss it as a lie.

Not to mention even saying the geth memory isn't a complete lie, there is most likely a precusor file that you don't get to see when a geth program interjects into other programs determining how to pursue the creators stating that probability scenarios have shown an 90% chance of pursuing creator forces through the relay network outside of quarian space leading to intervention by the citadel and councial fleets leading to a 90% chance of geth network destruction.

Um, no. If the Geth had wanted to the Quarians would never even have left Rannoch. It has nothing to do with pursuing them through the relays.

Modifié par The Angry One, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:12 .

[InvincibleHero]

Arken wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
I cannot define that for you. By any dictionary meaning without seriously misreading could you even make a an argument a machine could plausibly have one.

Does windows have a soul? It is a collection of programs like the geth. Is it alive? There is your answer. NO.

Whether one is better or not is off topic and would be flame bait material.

Life is defined as an organism ;plant, animal, or human. I bet I could name a thousand things and you'd get every one right whether living or non-living. You know what the definition is but choose to ignore it in favor of a fantasy fiction.

Then let's forget about life for a minute. What about sentience?

Humans are sentient. Geth are also sentient. They are aware of their existence, wish to continue existing, have shown the ability to regret their actions, have shown the ability to become engraged, etc and so on.

The human brain is nothing more than an organic computer, as someone stated before, there is nothing that makes humans different from AIs aside from humans being made from flesh rather than machines.

Emotions, and opinions are the result of the brain computing the appropriate response based on past experiences. AI are fully capable of emotions and opinions.

Humans can only make a choice based on what is preprogrammed within their mind to do. If there's no information on the subject than we won't know what to do. If we see someone is in pain we'll probably know they're in pain, because our brain kept track of what signs of pain are either from our own experience or someone else's.

AIs are the same. The learn from experiences, and integrate that knowledge to know what to do if the situation arises again.

The difference between Legion and Shepard is that Legion is made of metal. Legion is a sentient being, and wishes to ensure the continuation of its people's existence.

They are not sentient. Legion said they are devoid of feeling and emotions. They have awareness. That is all. Now after reaper upgrades maybe they are capable. However reapers have an organic component for a reason.

Self-preservation is not a part of sentience.

[What a Succulent Ass]

However reapers have an organic component for a reason.

...To preserve organics by keeping them save from synthetics.

Trolololo.

Edit: Self-preservation is part of sentience.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:15 .

[The Angry One]

InvincibleHero wrote...

They are not sentient. Legion said they are devoid of feeling and emotions. They have awareness. That is all. Now after reaper upgrades maybe they are capable. However reapers have an organic component for a reason.

Self-preservation is not a part of sentience.

The Geth display emotions and bouts of irrationality.

Curiosity and abstract thought: "Does this unit have a soul?"

Anger: "No. We will not allow you to determine our future."

Empathy: Donating to an Eden Prime charity for the Heretic attack

Sentiment: Legion's hero worship of Shepard

Remorse: "We regret the deaths of the Creators."

[solys]

Geth and gingers don't have soul,everyone knows that.

[AlanC9]

Random Jerkface wrote...
IC, please provide a functional definition of "soul." By even engaging in the thread, all of us are tacitly agreeing it exists, but the onus is on you to give it. Otherwise this exercise is pointless; you are assuming your conclusion is true as a premise to prove your conclusion.

Well, in my case it's just arguendo. But yeah, the circularity is getting pretty obvious. And since it's past 4 AM here, I'm going to bow out for a bit.

(Any bets on whether IH will actually report anyone to mods the way he threatened to? And who will actually get banned if a mod does show up?)

[DriftingMustang]

Saying the Geth are not sentient is blatent Racism because they clearly are and they clearly feel, just not in the same way humans do. if hypothetically the geth were real this would be considered highly offensive and racist.