285 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

Geth had more soul before than with Reaper upgrades...

At start of morning war it was geth which deffend itself and at the end it was geth again which stop hunting his creators and all organics, despite what Catalyst said it´s totally breaking his logic because by his logic would Geths probably already owners of Milky Way but instead they lived in separation from organics. They were looking for understanding on their own and once when they achieved Dyson Sphere maybe than they would look for organics and trying to make a peace.

But if you have not enough points to broke a peace betwen Geths and Quarians and you have allowed to use Reaper Code - it show that Geths change their personality. Geths could simply retreat from war and left creators alone but they want to destroy creators despite that without Reaper Code they were looking for understanding.
But Reaper code simply rewrite their logic to own purpose, despite that they get personality they also allow to rage work instead of their true nature.

Also there is interesting what said Javik about his cycle: Zha implanted themself and become Zha´til and live in co-existence but after Reaper arrival there both were turned into abominations. So they in fact achieved synthesis already but Reapers turn them into monsters and used them into own plans which is disproving Catalyst´s claim that the Reapers were looking for solution.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:23 .

[The Angry One]

^ If the Geth had retreated the Quarians would've shot them to pieces. It was an us or them scenario.

[sistersafetypin]

 OP, did you play ME1? Do you happen to remember Feros? 


Souless Machines don't pray.

Unless the soul really is a construct of the human mind, at which point... There is no such thing as a soul, and God is dead

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:22 .

[Jassu1979]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

And yet you can do anything counter to the logic your brain and experiences tells you. Legion and the geth cannot. They have to do what best answer gets computed from consensus because that is all they know.  

You know why humans can do this: free will. That comes from something.

Free will is an oxymoron, and our choices are very much a product of our individual conditioning and our subconscious.

[SpamBot2000]

At the very least they have Funk.

[Applepie_Svk]

The Angry One wrote...

^ If the Geth had retreated the Quarians would've shot them to pieces. It was an us or them scenario.

Maybe yes maybe not... FTL jump is FTL jump, otherwise Geths are wide-spread around old colonies of Quarians. Even if they lose one battle it would took maybe months or years to complete victory over Geths.

[Jassu1979]

As long as we define "soul" as some supernatural mumbo jumbo supposedly tied to Biblegod, it's safe to say that it's entirely fictional - just like thetans or the "animating life force" once imagined by the vitalists.

[Bill Casey]

Prove that I have a soul...
Prove that I am sentient...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:31 .

[estebanus]

Of course they don't. Things such as souls don't exist.They're metaphors.

[Ieldra]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...
The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

And yet you can do anything counter to the logic your brain and experiences tells you. Legion and the geth cannot. They have to do what best answer gets computed from consensus because that is all they know.  

You know why humans can do this: free will. That comes from something.

Are you aware of the fact that most decisions we make are already made in our brains before we become aware of them? We are much less free than we think. Also, your claim pretty much supports how determined we are by factors within ourselves. Were we not, we would more readily take logic and experience into account.  

[DriftingMustang]

Hey OP, just want to know if you have ever experienced discrimination for looking, feeling, and believing differently. just want to point that out just because I HAVE pretty much because im not white, and Im not christian in a very white christian area. alongside a huge list of ways people have offended me because of my race and religion, been told my soul will go to hell because im not christian. Try using your sentient, human, soul empowering empathy and put yourself in geth shoes.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Geth don't wear shoes, silly.

[DriftingMustang]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Geth don't wear shoes, silly.

touche lol

[Ageless Face]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Geth don't wear shoes, silly.

Neither do elves.

Does this elf have a soul?

[Archontor]

If there are souls and geth don't have them it just shows how useless and ineffectual they are. They have innovated, they possess curiosity of a sort, they ponder philosophy and religion and so far more peacefully than any other species IRL or in mass effect. So tell me what good is a 'soul'?

[Anvos]

The Angry One wrote...

Anvos wrote...

All of the geth "memories" can be doubted as potential graphical file edits or complete fabrications rather than true memories since a robot's memories should largely be video files and not subjective images that change the view of the parties based on the viewers memories hence shepard should not see quarian's as in suits or geth as the most recent moble platform modles.

The Consensus is truth, they are incapable of lying in there.
When Legion actually tries to lie to Shepard, it's terrible at it, constantly getting caught and tripping over itself.
Yet you think the Geth are somehow master manipulators. To what end?

I'll remind you that even the Quarians admit they started the war.
Also Raan, when faced with the Geth version of events, says that it differs from the Quarian's, but does not dismiss it as a lie.

Not to mention even saying the geth memory isn't a complete lie, there is most likely a precusor file that you don't get to see when a geth program interjects into other programs determining how to pursue the creators stating that probability scenarios have shown an 90% chance of pursuing creator forces through the relay network outside of quarian space leading to intervention by the citadel and councial fleets leading to a 90% chance of geth network destruction.

Um, no. If the Geth had wanted to the Quarians would never even have left Rannoch. It has nothing to do with pursuing them through the relays.

Unless I'm mistaken the video file/"memory" mentions the quarian fleet already being taken off. 

Not to mention it is a logical absurdity to say that a race renouned for its engineering and computer skills couldn't disable their own tech long enough to get off planet (especially since by the time the Morning War would have gotten bad enough to declare retreat the quarian fleet would have already been mobilized).  Lets also not forget the geth network was originally designed for industry and service.

As for the consensus, as far as I know there isn't any subjective proof that the geth can't lie in the consesus if their programing views it as a matter of self preservation of the geth network.  Also there is still the whole fact that the consesus was infected with reaper programming so there is also the possibility the reapers edited some files to make the geth more likely to join them.

Modifié par Anvos, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:49 .

[Eain]

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

Yup. Nobody has a soul to begin with, making Legion's question rather pointless.

Also this thread pleases me. A lot of philosophically responsible folk in here, with a correct understanding of human nature. The people who stubbornly argue that the Geth do "not have souls" are the ones grounded in an outdated worldview. Sucks for them.

Modifié par Eain, 16 juillet 2012 - 09:01 .

[SpamBot2000]

It's good that we as a civilization are so advanced that we completely understand the emergent properties of the neural system.

[The Angry One]

Anvos wrote...

Unless I'm mistaken the video file/"memory" mentions the quarian fleet already being taken off. 

The file states that the fleet has just cleared Rannoch and will proceed to the mass relay.

Not to mention it is a logical absurdity to say that a race renouned for its engineering and computer skills couldn't disable their own tech long enough to get off planet (especially since by the time the Morning War would have gotten bad enough to declare retreat the quarian fleet would have already been mobilized).  Lets also not forget the geth network was originally designed for industry and service.

By that logic, why did they lose the war?

As for the consensus, as far as I know there isn't any subjective proof that the geth can't lie in the consesus if their programing views it as a matter of self preservation of the geth network.  Also there is still the whole fact that the consesus was infected with reaper programming so there is also the possibility the reapers edited some files to make the geth more likely to join them.

Because the Geth are terrible at lying. Also why would the Reapers alter Geth history? They already control the Geth.

[Baronesa]

HAHAHAHA

Sorry OP. But you are stating the obvious. Of course the whole soul thing is metaphorical since there is no such thing as a soul. Geth don't have it, you don't have it, nobody has it.

You can believe there is such thing, and you are welcome to that, go ahead, but believing is not knowledge, and there is not a shred of evidence pointing to the existence of such thing.

What really matters here are these question among many others: Are the geth sentient beings? What is sentience? How can you prove sentience? Is it something inherent of organic life? Can you prove that you are sentient? under which criteria? Would that criteria also work on the geth and EDI? would that criteria apply to other alien species?

Modifié par Baronesa, 16 juillet 2012 - 09:19 .

[Anvos]

The Angry One wrote...

Anvos wrote...

Unless I'm mistaken the video file/"memory" mentions the quarian fleet already being taken off.

The file states that the fleet has just cleared Rannoch and will proceed to the mass relay.

Not to mention it is a logical absurdity to say that a race renouned for its engineering and computer skills couldn't disable their own tech long enough to get off planet (especially since by the time the Morning War would have gotten bad enough to declare retreat the quarian fleet would have already been mobilized). Lets also not forget the geth network was originally designed for industry and service.

By that logic, why did they lose the war?

As for the consensus, as far as I know there isn't any subjective proof that the geth can't lie in the consesus if their programing views it as a matter of self preservation of the geth network. Also there is still the whole fact that the consesus was infected with reaper programming so there is also the possibility the reapers edited some files to make the geth more likely to join them.

Because the Geth are terrible at lying. Also why would the Reapers alter Geth history? They already control the Geth.

Why the quarians lost?
Industrial based robots would naturally be poised to take over their factories early on.  Thus they could just keep pumping out more and more of them and win/stall via zerg tactics until the network adapts combat modes into its system.  Plus the quarian's were kinda hoping the councial would do their duty and help them, thus they were more concerned about preserving their people. (different subject though part of me is convinced the councial chose to do nothing since the quarian's seem like they were getting too close to becoming a strong enough galatic power to consider making a play to get the councial to give them their own seat)

Why the reapers would edit geth files?
1. Its possible that there was reaper code in the consensus since they encountered Sovreign and until the damage the quarian's did to the network their firewalls were able to compensate and keep it contained or the reaper code went dormant when Sovreign was destroyed and came back online when the reapers returned.  Thus the reaper code would begin modifying files to influence the consensus to join the reapers.
2. Its kinda what reapers do, modifying conquered races to help them continue the cycle, and if they modified enough files that the consensus would believe there could never be peace with organics it essentially makes them the puppets of the reapers and a potential replacement for the collectors.

As for the relgion thing somebody brought up, the heritic "religion" is more about honoring the reapers as the pinnacle of synthetic life and hoping to convince them to share more reaper tech with them.

Modifié par Anvos, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:09 .

[Xellith]

Human beings do not have souls. Pics or it didnt happen.

[Jackums]

The whole concept of a "soul" is man-made fanfiction. Ergo, thread invalid. We don't and cannot know whether "souls" exist in the first place, therefore you're arguing the geth lack something we don't even know if we have.

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

This.

HagarIshay wrote...

If Geth don't have a soul, then I guess souls are not that important.

This.

InvincibleHero wrote...

Did the game ever mention quarians gave a soul to the geth?

Tali tells Legion it has a soul on Rannoch.

[DirtyPhoenix]

I always thought their question about having a soul and Tali's answer is meant to be taken metaphorically and not literally. I don't even know what constitute a soul. Do I have a soul OP? xD

[Pitznik]

Geth either have souls just like us, or don't have souls, just like us. They're sentient beings, conscious of their own existence, they're alive. Doesn't change the fact they're treacherous scum allying with Reapers and should be destroyed.