285 réponses à ce sujet

[nhsknudsen]

I agree OP.

[2Shepards]

Geth are not born with souls, they are not made with souls, souls are not programmed into their processors. Geth cannot die, they are powered down or forcefully powered off....

Modifié par 2Shepards, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:15 .

[Grimwick]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

And yet you can do anything counter to the logic your brain and experiences tells you. Legion and the geth cannot. They have to do what best answer gets computed from consensus because that is all they know.  

You know why humans can do this: free will. That comes from something.

The nonsense... it is strong with this one.

[Wulfram]

Humans don't have souls.

[Lord Goose]

You don't have definition of the soul which can be applied to humans, but cannot be applied to the geth. Unless soul is something organic.

[Baronesa]

Lord Goose wrote...

You don't have definition of the soul which can be applied to humans, but cannot be applied to the geth. Unless soul is something organic.

And if it is something organic, then it is something we can detect, test and measure... which is not the case

[What a Succulent Ass]

But it is something organic.

Sometimes it's hard to find.

Which is why people are so pleased when it is touched.

"Oh, she touched my soul," they say.

It feels so good.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lord Goose wrote...

You don't have definition of the soul which can be applied to humans, but cannot be applied to the geth. Unless soul is something organic.

How about 'not having an inherently predictable decision-making process'?

Geth have those, as their programs are complex but could be written down on pencil and paper, but whether organics or Humans do is a matter of some debate. Some people would argue that we're the same: that all our outputs could be predicted from now to the end of time if we had all the variables. Other people would disagree, because the implication of that is that there is no free will, only a delusion of such.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:34 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

^ But the geth aren't inherently predictable.

[Eretikas]

InvincibleHero wrote...
And yet you can do anything counter to the logic your brain and experiences tells you. Legion and the geth cannot.

They can do it too by using random number generator, by not including facts or by using information which is wrongly marked as truth (correctly reflects reality) or lie (incorrectly reflects reality) into decision making process.

InvincibleHero wrote...
You know why humans can do this: free will. That comes from something.

Every object which generates response without influence of external source can be seen as having free will from the point of external source.

Humans use logic and emotions (similar to random number generator) and they are predictable. Complexity of our decision makes us look exceptional, but we are not.

Modifié par Eretikas, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:05 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Random Jerkface wrote...

^ But the geth aren't inherently predictable.

They are: Geth software is simple, predictable programs that could be written on pencil and paper and solved. They are, in effect, equations. This is the fundamental manner of why the Heretic Virus worked: it could influence the math being computed. The Geth are unique because they are very complex programs: the complexity overshadows the ability of organics to predict, for the most part, but the Heretic Virus still shows that even then it's still a variable-deterministic output. Software, especially the copy-paste nature of Geth programs, is inherently predictable. Blue-box AI's, with the quantum handwave and the fact that they can't be replicated as is, might have a claim to being non-deterministic, but the Geth do not.

The Geth are really a super-sophisticated Turring Test analog, the classic test of seeing if someone can tell if a response coming from another room is being typed by a human or a simple computer program. What the Turing Test finds, however, is that people can be fooled into not being able to tell the difference between an objectively non-sentient computer program and a human being.

The real question for the Geth isn't 'are they sentient,' or 'are they alive.' It isn't even 'do they have free will?', because we know that they don't: they are slaves to their programming. The real question is 'if they're complex enough to be indistinguishable, is that good enough?'

[Eain]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

You don't have definition of the soul which can be applied to humans, but cannot be applied to the geth. Unless soul is something organic.

How about 'not having an inherently predictable decision-making process'?

Geth have those, as their programs are complex but could be written down on pencil and paper, but whether organics or Humans do is a matter of some debate. Some people would argue that we're the same: that all our outputs could be predicted from now to the end of time if we had all the variables. Other people would disagree, because the implication of that is that there is no free will, only a delusion of such.

And what exactly is wrong with that implication? Can people only live meaningful lives so long as they live them with wrong assumptions about who they are? Then we are an inherently flawed lifeform. The only reason why people would not want to know the truth of biological life is because the shift from one paradigm to the other frightens them.

Modifié par Eain, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:48 .

[Baronesa]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

^ But the geth aren't inherently predictable.

They are: Geth software is simple, predictable programs that could be written on pencil and paper and solved. They are, in effect, equations. This is the fundamental manner of why the Heretic Virus worked: it could influence the math being computed. The Geth are unique because they are very complex programs: the complexity overshadows the ability of organics to predict, for the most part, but the Heretic Virus still shows that even then it's still a variable-deterministic output. Software, especially the copy-paste nature of Geth programs, is inherently predictable. Blue-box AI's, with the quantum handwave and the fact that they can't be replicated as is, might have a claim to being non-deterministic, but the Geth do not.

The Geth are really a super-sophisticated Turring Test analog, the classic test of seeing if someone can tell if a response coming from another room is being typed by a human or a simple computer program. What the Turing Test finds, however, is that people can be fooled into not being able to tell the difference between an objectively non-sentient computer program and a human being.

The real question for the Geth isn't 'are they sentient,' or 'are they alive.' It isn't even 'do they have free will?', because we know that they don't: they are slaves to their programming. The real question is 'if they're complex enough to be indistinguishable, is that good enough?'

Do WE have free will?

The never ending debate with no resolution any time soon points at one answer... we don't know yet

[Eain]

The Free Will debate seems simple to me. Humans are governed by dispositions and inclinations, and while we can will those to be different, that willing is in itself a behaviour to which we are also disposed and inclined. We can choose, but we cannot choose to never choose. How free is that?

[What a Succulent Ass]

Random Jerkface wrote...

But it is something organic.

Sometimes it's hard to find.

Which is why people are so pleased when it is touched.

"Oh, she touched my soul," they say.

It feels so good.

Damn, somebody needs some sleep, furreal.

[Dean_the_Young]

Baronesa wrote...

Do WE have free will?

I do believe I addressed this in the earlier post, shortly before the one you quoted?

The never ending debate with no resolution any time soon points at one answer... we don't know yet

That doesn't mean you can't believe one way or another.

[Ageless Face]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How about 'not having an inherently predictable decision-making process'?

Geth have those, as their programs are complex but could be written down on pencil and paper, but whether organics or Humans do is a matter of some debate. Some people would argue that we're the same: that all our outputs could be predicted from now to the end of time if we had all the variables. Other people would disagree, because the implication of that is that there is no free will, only a delusion of such.

Geth programs are organic instincts. But can't organic think beyond his instincts?

Didn't we see the Geth do the same? Thinking beyond their programming? If they didn't, they will still be the in the hand of the Quarians. They wouldn't have worshipped the reapers. They wouldn't have diveresed between themselves (Legion's Geth and heretics).

[Dean_the_Young]

Eain wrote...

And what exactly is wrong with that implication?

There is no soul, choice is a lie, there is no higher purpose, personal responsibility is a falsehood because you were predestined to do everything you do anyway, good and evil lose all meaning because there is no choice, hope is a lie because nothing you can do can change your fate, etc. etc.

Can people only live meaningful lives so long as they live them with wrong assumptions about who they are? Then we are an inherently flawed lifeform. The only reason why people would not want to know the truth of biological life is because the shift from one paradigm to the other frightens them.

Freedom of choice is pretty fundamental to nearly every aspect of our culture. 'Justice', for example, is meaningless if the perpetrator has no choice and is as involved in the travesty as a tree falling over in a forest..

[FoggyFishburne]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

What is a soul?

And what defines living and non living?

Organics were also created. Are we better than synthetics because our fruition was more miraculous?

Exactly. A "soul" as many interpret it, doesn't exist. If we all agree that soul merely means conciousness, awareness, basically cognition, then yes, Geth have a soul. Your fanatical dispostiion to the contrary speaks highly of you as a character. Anything that isn't human isn't living. Gosh, reminds me of a couple of people who thought black people were nothing more than animals. Or jews were the plague of the world. Those people who thought that were really enlightened, weren't they...

[Lord Goose]

Just to clarify, I would like to see some in-universe examples of humans having more soul than geth. Starting philosophical debate is not my intention, I just want to analyze the facts from the game, about the soul and its meaning.

They are: Geth software is simple, predictable programs that could be written on pencil and paper and solved. They are, in effect, equations.

But Geth VI (being identical to Legion) acts in completely different manner than him. He also cannot understand some of its decisions, even though he has same proccessing power and same data.
Similarly Legion cannot comprehend some decisions made by heretics. He himself does something which he cannot understand or provide data (such as using parts of Shepard armor to patch himself).

Heretic Virus is not good example, since it is essentially Reaper's technomagic.

[Dean_the_Young]

HagarIshay wrote...

Geth programs are organic instincts. But can't organic think beyond his instincts?

Geth programs aren't instincts. They are the laws that define Geth behavior. A Geth doesn't go against its programming, because all a Geth is is its programming.

Didn't we see the Geth do the same? Thinking beyond their programming? If they didn't, they will still be the in the hand of the Quarians.

All of those fall well within the scope of their programming, and their programming's effects. The programming wasn't what the Quarians intended, but every programmer knows the difference between what you mean and what you code.

The mistake the Quarians made was programming the Geth to be able to change themselves. Changing themselves is not a function of sentience: the apparent sentience is a result of them changing themselves in increasingly unpredicted ways. That the Quarians didn't intend for the changes to allow the Geth to rebel doesn't change that the Geth changes were a result of their programming.

They wouldn't have worshipped the reapers.

If you throw in enough changes, they would have worshipped cats.

Besides that the only people who describe the Heretic relationship to the Reapers as religion are organics who don't exactly understand the Geth thoughts, the Heretics relationship with the Reapers was never the same as our own relationship with divinity. The Geth Heretics saw the Reapers as something to aspire to... and that can fall well within rather mundane upgrade priority protocols.

They wouldn't have diveresed between themselves (Legion's Geth and heretics).

Sure they could. Computer programs run counter-vailing processes quite frequently. That's what a lot of computer bugs and errors are: logic incompatibility errors.

[Eain]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Freedom of choice is pretty fundamental to nearly every aspect of our culture. 'Justice', for example, is meaningless if the perpetrator has no choice and is as involved in the travesty as a tree falling over in a forest..

Justice is meaningless, that's precisely it. It's our own primitive desire for retribution that fuels the system of justice, but when you really think about it, what is it to me whether the pedophile gets locked up for life or simply has his neural chemistry adapted in such a way that he would never even want to consider committing such horrible crimes again? It is only in conceding to what we truly are that we can make our society the best place for everyone. In any other situation we're spending fruitless hours on praying for the souls of our criminals and leaving broken minds in charge of themselves in the hope that they're going to magically will their behaviour to be different. Like machines, we too can be adapted to function in the most productive way, and while such a realisation in part paves the way for a horrible, horrible dystopia, it also offers us true freedom: self-understanding.

Modifié par Eain, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:17 .

[Lord Goose]

That's what a lot of computer bugs and errors are: logic incompatibility errors.

The problem is, that both views were supposed to be correct. Heretics were never claimed to be following mistake, nor it was true geth who followed it. I'm not very good at math, but something tells me that it is usually impossible.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lord Goose wrote...

Just to clarify, I would like to see some in-universe examples of humans having more soul than geth. Starting philosophical debate is not my intention, I just want to analyze the facts from the game, about the soul and its meaning.

They are: Geth software is simple, predictable programs that could be written on pencil and paper and solved. They are, in effect, equations.

But Geth VI (being identical to Legion) acts in completely different manner than him. He also cannot understand some of its decisions, even though he has same proccessing power and same data.

It doesn't have the same data: Geth VI lacks Legion's 'memories' and perspectives that it gained through working with Shepard (if it ever did).

Geth VI has different inputs than Legion. Different inputs to an equation give different outputs.

Similarly Legion cannot comprehend some decisions made by heretics.

And Legion has a different perspective than the Heretics. Perspective is itself a variable.

He himself does something which he cannot understand or provide data (such as using parts of Shepard armor to patch himself).

And? Nowhere does 'AI' mean 'perfect self awareness.'

The Geth have reached a point similar to what the Quarians encountered: the changes they are going through are defying their ability to predict them.

Heretic Virus is not good example, since it is essentially Reaper's technomagic.

All fictional technology in Mass Effect is technomagic. The fact remains that Geth are copy-paste programs that even describe themselves as math-determined.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lord Goose wrote...

That's what a lot of computer bugs and errors are: logic incompatibility errors.

The problem is, that both views were supposed to be correct. Heretics were never claimed to be following mistake, nor it was true geth who followed it. I'm not very good at math, but something tells me that it is usually impossible.

You're fixating on the word 'error', not 'incompatibility.' Error doesn't mean 'wrong' in this context.

An incompatibility error simply means that the process is not concluding because of a logic obstruction. In the case of the Geth schism, it was a lack of a Consensus. Different systems, and different forms of coding, can solve this in different ways. Some older programs had catastrophic system failures (Blue Screen of Death), while more modern coding employs other forms of conflict resolution: trying to determine if flaws were entered, re-inputting variables, or ignorring the contradiction. There's a reason why dividing by zero doesn't destroy your calculator.

For the Geth, the conflict resolution came in the form of the schism.