285 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Eain wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Freedom of choice is pretty fundamental to nearly every aspect of our culture. 'Justice', for example, is meaningless if the perpetrator has no choice and is as involved in the travesty as a tree falling over in a forest..

Justice is meaningless, that's precisely it.

Very few people would agree.

It is only in conceding to what we truly are that we can make our society the best place for everyone.

There is no such thing as conceding in an absolutely deterministic universe. A concession is a choice, and choices don't exist.

Like machines, we too can be adapted to function in the most productive way, and while such a realisation in part paves the way for a horrible, horrible dystopia, it also offers us true freedom: self-understanding.

Understanding is a choice. Choices don't exist. You will exist in ignorance, or in understanding, regardless of anything you do or anything you can do.

[Eain]

Nobody said a thing about determinism.

[Dean_the_Young]

Eain wrote...

Nobody said a thing about determinism.

That is exactly what a lack of free will is.

[Baronesa]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eain wrote...

Nobody said a thing about determinism.

That is exactly what a lack of free will is.

No it isn't, not necessarily

Modifié par Baronesa, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:32 .

[Ageless Face]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Geth programs aren't instincts. They are the laws that define Geth behavior. A Geth doesn't go against its programming, because all a Geth is is its programming.

 

The programs are as much insticnts as it can be. It tells us how to act with or without us wanting to. We just follow our instincts, as the Geth follow their programing.

All of those fall well within the scope of their programming, and their programming's effects. The programming wasn't what the Quarians intended, but every programmer knows the difference between what you mean and what you code.

The mistake the Quarians made was programming the Geth to be able to change themselves. Changing themselves is not a function of sentience: the apparent sentience is a result of them changing themselves in increasingly unpredicted ways. That the Quarians didn't intend for the changes to allow the Geth to rebel doesn't change that the Geth changes were a result of their programming.

 

What are you talking about? Tali herself told us in ME1 the Geth statrted to develop self awareness, and that is why the Quarians went to war against them. It doesn't have anything to do with their programing. Programs won't make the Geth ask religious questions, if they will ask anything at all. The Geth wouldn't not want to defend their creators when their programs probably turned to self preservation mode.

If you throw in enough changes, they would have worshipped cats. 

Does it matter? They still warshipped. We humans worshipped rocks, as well as statues we created.

 
Besides that the only people who describe the Heretic relationship to the Reapers as religion are organics who don't exactly understand the Geth thoughts, the Heretics relationship with the Reapers was never the same as our own relationship with divinity. The Geth Heretics saw the Reapers as something to aspire to... and that can fall well within rather mundane upgrade priority protocols.

Oh really? You don't think there were humans that did exactly the same? Why do you think so many people warship Jesus? They want to learn from him. Be kind, humble, all that stuff. Why do you think people want to be so kind? They want to get to heaven. Besides, I think the old Egyptian religion was very simmilar. So no, human religions are not so different than the Geth's warship to the Reapers.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:43 .

[elitehunter34]

Dean, I would argue that the Geth do for all intents and purposes have free will and are sentient. EDI can modify her own programming. The Geth can too, that's how they became sentient in the first place. So they can go against their own programming by reprogramming themselves. It's the equivalent of us being able to consciously control how our neurons make new connections.

The Heretic Geth weren't reprogrammed to follow the Reapers, they did so of their own free will. Later on, they modifed a virus that Sovereign gave them to try to reprogram the non-Heretic Geth to follow them, but Shepard can stop this in Legion's loyalty mission and either destroy it or use it to reprogram the Heretic Geth.

Mind control happens a lot in Mass Effect, with organics it's through Indoctrination and with synthetics it's through forced reprogramming. Just because someone can lose control of their free will doesn't mean they don't have it in the first place.

Now if you are arguing that we have no free will. Well...I really don't know if I want to go down that road of discussion. I think that by most people's definitions we have free will. I think we have free will, or at the very least are complex enough that the illusion of free will is indistinguishable from true free will. I'm in the boat that if two ideas are indistinguishable, they are the same idea.

[Dean_the_Young]

HagarIshay wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Geth programs aren't instincts. They are the laws that define Geth behavior. A Geth doesn't go against its programming, because all a Geth is is its programming.

 

The programs are as much insticnts as it can be. It tells us how to act with or without us wanting to. We just follow our instincts, as the Geth follow their programing.

That's not what programming is, or how it works. While you can make a case that Humans are deterministic, programming isn't an impulse (which is what instincts are). Impulses shape behavior: programming dictates it.

What are you talking about? Tali herself told us in ME1 the Geth statrted to develop self awareness, and that is why the Quarians went to war against them.

The 'self-awareness' they were developing was a result of their unpredicted programming changes.

It doesn't have anything to do with their programing. Programs won't make the Geth ask religious questions, if they will ask anything at all.

Self-categorization and knowledge-expansion programming would do just that. Religious questions are no more fundamental of intelligence than color identification questions.

Does it matter? They still warshipped. We humans worshipped rocks, as well as statues we created.

It matters completely whether they do so as a determinsitic output or as a reflection of free will. Worships is more than just motions, it is reason and motivation as well.

Oh really? You don't think there were humans that did exactly the same? Why do you think so many people warship Jesus? They want to learn from him. Be kind, humble, all that stuff. Why do you think people want to be so kind? They want to get to heaven. Besides, I think the old Egyptian religion was very simmilar. So no, human religions are not so different than the Geth's warship to the Reapers.

Whether some humans would do the same as the Geth is irrelevant to whether the Geth are sentient: whether the Humans had to do the same is the issue. 

Humans relate with or mimmick non-sentient things quite often: we can agree with a book we read (how can we agree with a non-sentient? Because it's a one-way communication.), or seek to emulate them (playing on all fours with a dog: playing like a monkey).

[TMA LIVE]

Technically, no matter how hard a machine might try, it's simply doing what it's programmed to do, and can't really evolve outside of that without outside code made by a coder.

However, I consider Mass Effect a human fantasy of science fiction, so yeah, the Geth can have a soul, I guess.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:53 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Humans do not have souls either. At least I do not believe we do.

What is a "soul" anyway? I think the whole "soul" thing is completely subjective. Religious people think the soul is something given to us by God himself, spiritual people believe the soul is some form of metaphysical energy, some people believe "soul" and "alive" are in fact synonymous, they believe everything that is alive also has a soul. Some people link "soul" to the capability of feeling emotions and desires.

So to the OP: When you speak of a "soul", what exactly do you mean?

[Dean_the_Young]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Dean, I would argue that the Geth do for all intents and purposes have free will and are sentient. EDI can modify her own programming. The Geth can too, that's how they became sentient in the first place. So they can go against their own programming by reprogramming themselves. It's the equivalent of us being able to consciously control how our neurons make new connections.

Reprograming themselves is within the scope of their own programming, however. And the factors that would make them willing or perceive a reason to do so are, likewise, a result of programming.

The Heretic Geth weren't reprogrammed to follow the Reapers, they did so of their own free will. Later on, they modifed a virus that Sovereign gave them to try to reprogram the non-Heretic Geth to follow them, but Shepard can stop this in Legion's loyalty mission and either destroy it or use it to reprogram the Heretic Geth.

While normally I'd let the shorthand slide, in this topic we need to be precise.

Did the Heretics side with the Reapers out of free will, or did the Heretics side with the Reapers because their programming told them to?

Mind control happens a lot in Mass Effect, with organics it's through Indoctrination and with synthetics it's through forced reprogramming. Just because someone can lose control of their free will doesn't mean they don't have it in the first place.

It also doesn't mean you had it in the first place.

I'm in the boat that if two ideas are indistinguishable, they are the same idea.

And this is the conclusion you need to answer the question: for you, it is yes. Which is prefectly fine! You've throught it through reasonably, and come to a rational that accepts the limitations and incorporates them.

[Enhanced]

In the mass effect universe, they definately have souls because the writers say that they do.

Modifié par Enhanced, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:56 .

[SpamBot2000]

Can't prove we have free will, assuming we do is what makes life meaningful. Isn't this the Kantian position? I'm cool with that.

[Lord Goose]

All fictional technology in Mass Effect is technomagic. The fact remains that Geth are copy-paste programs that even describe themselves as math-determined.

The virus was supposed to make error in processing of basic runtimes (equivalent to organic nervous system). However, Heretics didn't choose to worship Reapers because of error. Both solutions were valid, however to make geth accept their view point still requires change on nervous system-level.

[TMA LIVE]

Honestly, if you mean soul as in, is Legion an individual separated from the rest of the Geth, and not just another Geth who thinks and acts the same way, then yes, Legion really does have a soul in a sense. If he's dead, he's really dead. And Geth VI ain't the same person, even though he's a backup of Legion.

Now if you mean the religious sense, as in, is Legion going to heaven? Not unless that green **** does something I haven't considered. Because a machine is still a machine.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 16 juillet 2012 - 01:02 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Did the Heretics side with the Reapers out of free will, or did the Heretics side with the Reapers because their programming told them to?

Here is a philosophical question for you:

When you decided to start a discussion in this thread, did you make that decision out of free will, or did you make that decision because your brain told you that you wanted to do this?

In other words: Are our actions hardwired? Are we slaves of our own thought processes? If we are; than are we really that different from the geth? Or does something like free will really exist?


What comes first?: The decision to do something, or the neural connection in the brain that initiates the decision to do something?

[Dean_the_Young]

Lord Goose wrote...

All fictional technology in Mass Effect is technomagic. The fact remains that Geth are copy-paste programs that even describe themselves as math-determined.

The virus was supposed to make error in processing of basic runtimes (equivalent to organic nervous system).

Since nervous systems don't work like that, Legion's equivalent is highly flawed.

However, Heretics didn't choose to worship Reapers because of error. Both solutions were valid, however to make geth accept their view point still requires change on nervous system-level.

No one is saying the Heretics chose the Reapers because of something wrong with them.

[The Night Mammoth]

Nothing has a 'soul', but I don't really care.

What's so important about having one? The Geth after their Reaper upgrades act in much the same way as sapient organics. So why does it matter?

[Dean_the_Young]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Did the Heretics side with the Reapers out of free will, or did the Heretics side with the Reapers because their programming told them to?

Here is a philosophical question for you:

When you decided to start a discussion in this thread, did you make that decision out of free will, or did you make that decision because your brain told you that you wanted to do this?

Who knows?

In other words: Are our actions hardwired? Are we slaves of our own thought processes? If we are; than are we really that different from the geth? Or does something like free will really exist?

I do believe that if you go back a few posts to my first post in the thread, you'll find me pointing out how this is the question we constantly return to.

What comes first?: The decision to do something, or the neural connection in the brain that initiates the decision to do something?

In a deterministic setting, the beginning of Time.

[The Heretic of Time]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I do believe that if you go back a few posts to my first post in the thread, you'll find me pointing out how this is the question we constantly return to.

I see. I think you and I are on the same line then, because I was thinking that myself.

[elitehunter34]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Reprograming themselves is within the scope of their own programming, however. And the factors that would make them willing or perceive a reason to do so are, likewise, a result of programming.

It doesn't matter if it is within the scope of their own programming because they can change it.  I mean, one can argue that you can't really change who you are because any change you make is due to your basic nature in the first place.  I personally find that to be very silly line of thinking.  It doesn't matter if that change was influenced by your core nature, what matters is that you changed.  The same logic applies to machines in my opinion.

Believing in free will also has a lot more actual utility than determinism.  Would you really give a murderer less of a punishment because he says it is in his nature to kill?  If he is not suffering from any psychological disorder, then yes he should bear full responsibility.  Society kinda needs to accept free will or there woud be chaos because people would then justify any bad behavior by saying they can't help it because they have no free will.

Dean_the_Young wrote... 
While normally I'd let the shorthand slide, in this topic we need to be precise.

Did the Heretics side with the Reapers out of free will, or did the Heretics side with the Reapers because their programming told them to?

They weren't influenced by Sovereign if that's what you are asking.  The Heretic Geth believed joining Sovereign was a good idea, and the other Geth disagreed, but let the Heretic Geth do so.  So yes they did it out of free will.

[Ageless Face]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's not what programming is, or how it works. While you can make a case that Humans are deterministic, programming isn't an impulse (which is what instincts are). Impulses shape behavior: programming dictates it.

 

Then we are programmed too acording to out behaviour. What is the difference?

The 'self-awareness' they were developing was a result of their unpredicted programming changes. 

Then why didn't Tali said that, instead of "Self awareness" and not "Change of programming"? If someone tried to find out if he's alive, that means he has a certain level of self awareness.

Self-categorization and knowledge-expansion programming would do just that. Religious questions are no more fundamental of intelligence than color identification questions.

 

Then why did they ask it on themselves? Why didn't they ask what a soul is? Why did the Quarians freaked out by it so much?

It matters completely whether they do so as a determinsitic output or as a reflection of free will. Worships is more than just motions, it is reason and motivation as well.

And the motivations of the Geth was to evolve further. Just like humans.

 
Whether some humans would do the same as the Geth is irrelevant to whether the Geth are sentient: whether the Humans had to do the same is the issue.

 

You brought a reason why the Geth's religon was not actual religion. It matters very much what humans do, if we humans live in the world of religion. So in this case, the Geth religios beliefs about the Reapers ARE warship.

[Eain]

Baronesa wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Eain wrote...

Nobody said a thing about determinism.

That is exactly what a lack of free will is.

No it isn't, not necessarily

Best link possible. I had a huge argument prepared but Dennett says it better than I could.

[SomeKindaEnigma]

Subjective

[Xandurpein]

Baronesa wrote...

HAHAHAHA

Sorry OP. But you are stating the obvious. Of course the whole soul thing is metaphorical since there is no such thing as a soul. Geth don't have it, you don't have it, nobody has it.

You can believe there is such thing, and you are welcome to that, go ahead, but believing is not knowledge, and there is not a shred of evidence pointing to the existence of such thing.

What really matters here are these question among many others: Are the geth sentient beings? What is sentience? How can you prove sentience? Is it something inherent of organic life? Can you prove that you are sentient? under which criteria? Would that criteria also work on the geth and EDI? would that criteria apply to other alien species?

And why do people insist on mixing up "senitience" with " organic life". A plant and bacteria are examples of organic life, but they are clearly not sentient, and as far as I know, no one has yet argued that bacteria have souls. Simple organisms have no sentience, their mental processes only consist of a few imperatives they have little or no control over, much like a computers of today.

More complex species have enough processing power in their brains that they can make more complex thoughts and become sentient. Normally we only think humans are sentient, but there's evidence that other mammals are capable of things only associated with sentience, like emotions, playfulness and love. There's no clear division between the simple organic species and the more complex ones, just a sliding scale where the more complex structures gain more and more sentience.

To me there's no reason to think that a synthetic being couldn't also gain sentience if it was sufficiently advanced, even if we are still far from that technology today.

Life is really just defined as something capable of signalling (communicating) and self-reproduction according to the dictionary. So the Geth are clearly alive, although they are not organic life.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 16 juillet 2012 - 01:33 .

[Lord Goose]

Since nervous systems don't work like that, Legion's equivalent is highly flawed.

We have no understanding how geth runtimes really work, I think. Legion has understanding of biology (at very least, he was created to operate within organics, and it is safe to assume that he knows that nervous system is), and should have understanding of himself. So I do not think, that he is incorrect.

I think we'are being confused by various in-universe terms not quite matching with IRL terms. For example, Heretic Virus is not a really a virus, but a weapon designed to be used against orthodox geth, which humans would call a virus. Probably runtime is not exactly run-time, but something that humans would call runtime. Etc.

And I think we have changed subject a bit. We don't reallly have evidence that humans in Mass Effect have more free will than geth. They are "shaped" by "software" and "hardware". while geth are just "software". We don't know if humans software is really different from geth software.

Unless soul is something which can be gained only by "hardware", it doesn't really answers the question.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 16 juillet 2012 - 01:35 .