285 réponses à ce sujet

[Eretikas]

poundoffleshaa wrote...
Souls are invisible mass-less unquantifiable, impossible to analyze or even to prove their existence.

Yep, they have same properties as 'nothing' .

I would describe "soul", from materialistic point of view, as a complete union of interdependent processes inside the object. From my point of view personal computer have a soul, just very simple one. You can turn that "soul" ON and OFF by using power switch . In the similar way, virus is a life form - very simple one. Of cource I don't use word "soul" when religious people around because they have different view despite it playing same role.

Modifié par Eretikas, 16 juillet 2012 - 06:52 .

[Eretikas]

RadioKon wrote...
Two tigers will fight until one is dead/runs away.

Probably, they are just arguing whose teeth are bigger . I bet that some "conversations" ends without the fight.

[tanisha__unknown]

Lots of speculations from erveryone.

[Tibbur]

RadioKon wrote...

Neither do humans, depending on how you look at it. The only thing that seperate humans and animals is the abililty to reason instead of fighting it out for survival. Two humans can hold guns to each other's heads, and talk it out, resulting in no one dying/getting hurt. Two tigers will fight until one is dead/runs away. Geth reason, therefore they can have a place in the galctic community.

And humans still havent worked out how to sit down thats we went from pointy sticks to nukes. Humans are at lot closer to animals than we care to think.

[Baronesa]

Tibbur wrote...

RadioKon wrote...

Neither do humans, depending on how you look at it. The only thing that seperate humans and animals is the abililty to reason instead of fighting it out for survival. Two humans can hold guns to each other's heads, and talk it out, resulting in no one dying/getting hurt. Two tigers will fight until one is dead/runs away. Geth reason, therefore they can have a place in the galctic community.

And humans still havent worked out how to sit down thats we went from pointy sticks to nukes. Humans are at lot closer to animals than we care to think.

Well... we are animals...

Domain - Eukarya
Kingdom - Animalia/Metazoa
Phylum - Chordata
class - Mammalia
Order - Primates
Family - Hominidae
Genus - ******
Species - ****** sapiens
Subspecies - ****** sapiens sapiens

[The Twilight God]

Tibbur wrote...

RadioKon wrote...

Neither do humans, depending on how you look at it. The only thing that seperate humans and animals is the abililty to reason instead of fighting it out for survival. Two humans can hold guns to each other's heads, and talk it out, resulting in no one dying/getting hurt. Two tigers will fight until one is dead/runs away. Geth reason, therefore they can have a place in the galctic community.

And humans still havent worked out how to sit down thats we went from pointy sticks to nukes. Humans are at lot closer to animals than we care to think.

The only difference between a human and other animals in complex language and manual dexterity. Those are the only differences.

[RavenEyry]

"Geth have no soul"? Neither do humans, I don't see what the problem is.

[darkchief10]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

And yet you can do anything counter to the logic your brain and experiences tells you. Legion and the geth cannot. They have to do what best answer gets computed from consensus because that is all they know.  

You know why humans can do this: free will. That comes from something.

I'm sorry sir, but evolutionary psychology would like a word with you.
Edit: I have already made my arguments on other threads so i feel no need to argue here, just know that i disagree with your assertion.

Modifié par darkchief10, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:12 .

[NoUserNameHere]

They had a soul in the Rannoch arc. It disapeared down a thematic black hole somewhere between there and Starchild.

/thread.

[darkchief10]

Eretikas wrote...

poundoffleshaa wrote...
Souls are invisible mass-less unquantifiable, impossible to analyze or even to prove their existence.

Yep, they have same properties as 'nothing' .

I would describe "soul", from materialistic point of view, as a complete union of interdependent processes inside the object. From my point of view personal computer have a soul, just very simple one. You can turn that "soul" ON and OFF by using power switch . In the similar way, virus is a life form - very simple one. Of cource I don't use word "soul" when religious people around because they have different view despite it playing same role.

We can't see dark matter, but we believe it is there, maybe we are just weighing the universe wrong? Simply because one chooses to believe in the man upstair does not mean he has thrown his concept of science and facts out the window. (neuroscientist in training btw)

[AlanC9]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

They had a soul in the Rannoch arc. It disapeared down a thematic black hole somewhere between there and Starchild.

Don't be silly. If they didn't have souls in the endgame how could Shepard end up as a mass murderer?

[Deltateam Elcor]

AlanC9 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

They had a soul in the Rannoch arc. It disapeared down a thematic black hole somewhere between there and Starchild.

Don't be silly. If they didn't have souls in the endgame how could Shepard end up as a mass murderer?

He doesnt because noone saw him do it, it dies with him, if he died.

The galaxy would simply think that was the crucibles only use.

[PanzerGr3nadier]

Well people didn't take the philosophy approach in ME1 when they gunned down the geth by the truck load!!

Geth are software, they can never be alive.

I also like where this thread is going.

[Krunjar]

Lol Geth have no soul. This is a pointless argument. First we get stuck in discussing what exactly IS a soul and that little definition has chewed up and spat out some of the greatest philosophers and scientist's of our time. BSN is not going to be the place where that all changes.

Prove the Geth have a soul? Don't make me laugh.

First prove to me that YOU have a soul.

There is one thing however that is undeniable. Even if our soul does exist the workings of our body and even the apparent workings of our brain are all entirely mechanical. Oh we might use cells instead of circuits but the principle is EXACTLY the same. So if we deny the Geth the possibility of a soul we deny ourselves that self same distinction. That is irrefutable.

@ PanzerGr3nadier

True but then again i didn't stop for the greedy space pirates or the drug crazed biotics either. They where the enemy then and they where not ready to listen to reason. Things change.

Modifié par Krunjar, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:25 .

[Jayleia]

[quote]InvincibleHero wrote...

[quote]AlanC9 wrote...
Why can't a soul be manufactured? This makes sense if some sort of God owns the IP for souls, but otherwise not.
[/quote]
Did the quarians create a soul for the geth? No. [/quote]

An actual argument there would be useful. But you're not really here for that, are you?

I'd settle for an answer to my question. Why can't souls be manufactured?
[/quote]

Did the game ever mention quarians gave a soul to the geth? No. Primary evidence. If you can cite otherwise then do so.

Your Q Why? The definition does not allow for manufacturing to be any part of the process. There is no list of ingredients or process to make one. That is not even an argument for philosophy. It is just not possible in how the word is defined.

Alan I gave quite a wordy argument and never troll. I think I backed my side adequately and will not devolve into a religious argument because I do not want banned. I enjoy the ME 3 multiplayer immensely.

[/quote]
No.  The Quarians didn't give them souls.  Do they HAVE souls?  (If they do have souls, then souls clearly CAN be present in manufactured entities)

I took two definitions from Dictionary.com.  Do they have:
4. the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.

(replace human with "sentient and sapient", then the answer is yes)

5. a human being; person.

(they are quite clearly people, for some value of person, but clearly not human)

By those defintions, they do have souls.  My computer doesn't have a soul, it can't, it has no intelligence or free will...<BLUE SCREEN>...OK, maybe it DOES have a soul, but its an evil, twisted soul, the Geth do have intelligence and free will, are sentient and sapient.

Arguing that they can't have souls, is almost inherently a religious/spiritual debate, you may try to speak as though you're trying not to be in a debate like that, but you can't really avoid the implications of it.  If you don't want to engage in that type of debate, then don't start it.

[Krunjar]

Lol the Quarian's did not give the Geth soul's so the Geth don't have them ... another inane argument.

What if a soul is a non localized phenomenon that exists in any system complicated enough to house it? Seems we are stuck with defining a soul again. And nobody knows the answer to that question.

[PanzerGr3nadier]

Krunjar wrote...
@ PanzerGr3nadier

True but then again i didn't stop for the greedy space pirates or the drug crazed biotics either. They where the enemy then and they where not ready to listen to reason. Things change.

Today's enemy may be your best friend in tomorrow

I bet Admiral Xen can have her Geth project now that we blew up them in pieces ^^

[AlanC9]

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

They had a soul in the Rannoch arc. It disapeared down a thematic black hole somewhere between there and Starchild.

Don't be silly. If they didn't have souls in the endgame how could Shepard end up as a mass murderer?

He doesnt because noone saw him do it, it dies with him, if he died.

The galaxy would simply think that was the crucibles only use.

Oh, sure. I'm just talking morally. It's not like he's ever going to be up on charges for it or anything.

@Jayleia: your nested quoting's a bit of a mess there.

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:43 .

[Boneyaards]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

And yet you can do anything counter to the logic your brain and experiences tells you. Legion and the geth cannot. They have to do what best answer gets computed from consensus because that is all they know.  

You know why humans can do this: free will. That comes from something.

That's because the best answer is LITERALLY the choice that yields the most ideal possible outcome. Unlike organics, synthetics such as the Geth are compelled to follow the choice of action that yields the best outcome. Organics are able to calculate the best possible course of action (although a lot slower, and less efficiently) but we are not forced to take that course of action. That is exactly what causes chaos. 

Freewill causes chaos.

[NoUserNameHere]

Krunjar wrote...

Lol the Quarian's did not give the Geth soul's so the Geth don't have them ... another inane argument.

What if a soul is a non localized phenomenon that exists in any system complicated enough to house it? Seems we are stuck with defining a soul again. And nobody knows the answer to that question.

Look. Any theological/philosophical debate of Mass Effect souls re: the Geth is kind of uneccessary. From a narrative standpoint, 'does this unit have a soul' merely needs to mean 'are the Geth just as worthy of living (as a species) as the Quarians?" 

On Rannoch, the answer is yes. Make peace if you can, otherwise make a sadistic choice one way or the other, where there is no 'right' option.

At the Crucible's launch station, the whole debate seems to shift. Geth are (having regressed back to their ME1 charactarization)  fundamentally alien, even for this setting. Given time, they're supposed to be a greater menace to 'real' life than the Reapers themselves. For reasons that can only be explained through inconsistent writing, their nature has changed. Legion's sacrifice did, aproximately, jack.

Modifié par NoUserNameHere, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:44 .

[DistantUtopia]

Boneyaards wrote...

Freewill causes chaos.

And chaos...leads to suffering...hmmm....

[AlanC9]

Boneyaards wrote...
 Unlike organics, synthetics such as the Geth are compelled to follow the choice of action that yields the best outcome. Organics are able to calculate the best possible course of action (although a lot slower, and less efficiently) but we are not forced to take that course of action. That is exactly what causes chaos. 

Freewill causes chaos.

That makes some very big assumptions about how geth minds are constructed. They might be like organic minds -- which, if human minds are typical examples, are made up of a bunch of different sub-modules making different evaluations and battling for control, with a conscious layer on top whose main function seems to be inventing a plausible story to rationalize the outcome of said battles.

[Jayleia]

InvincibleHero wrote...

You're going to have to prove the conscious beings part. Maybe you meant some other term.

They are not life as defined. Note they created a new term synthetic life for the game. They are made of inanimate objects aka metal and glass etc and cannot be defined as life by any conventional means. Really they are simply lines of code a string of 1s and 0s. There is nothing else to them they replicate in strings of 1s and 0s by copying programs that are extant. They are animated by some power source not really defined is it battery electrical whatever. Thus 1 does not apply.

Legion has exhibited no real spirituality in the game proper. Besides it is easy to invalidate as it specifies human beings.

I loved the Legion/geth story. I just don't think they can be ever defined to be alive or have a soul. If someone created a geth on earth I would respect its right to exist as long as it did not endanger the well-being of humanity aka skynet doom and gloom. I don't think it will ever be possible that code can become self-aware. It can only ever do that which it was created for period.

They make decisions based on observation and evidence not by right and wrong or any moral concept. If their consensus said murder all organics to ensure our continuation they would do it with no qualms.

Dictionary.com again
1. the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally. 2. the sum of the distinguishing phenomena of organisms, especially metabolism, growth, reproduction, and adaptation to environment.
So...yes, they do grow, reproduce and adapt, though not in a manner familiar to us.

I'd say that Legion DOES exhibit some spirituality, but not of what we commonly see as a religious/moral spirituality.  And yes, that definition specifies humans, does that mean Krogan have no souls according to the definition?  The definition is clearly inadequate for a game that includes aliens, and synthetics, the only question is, how inadequate is it.

Yes, they do base decisions on observation and evidence, but, based on the observed evidence of organics attacking them, it would have been entirely in keeping with a purely evidence-based decision making process to exterminate the Quarians before they escaped.  They did not, clearly indicating some "right/wrong" element of decision making.

[darkchief10]

Boneyaards wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

And yet you can do anything counter to the logic your brain and experiences tells you. Legion and the geth cannot. They have to do what best answer gets computed from consensus because that is all they know.  

You know why humans can do this: free will. That comes from something.

That's because the best answer is LITERALLY the choice that yields the most ideal possible outcome. Unlike organics, synthetics such as the Geth are compelled to follow the choice of action that yields the best outcome. Organics are able to calculate the best possible course of action (although a lot slower, and less efficiently) but we are not forced to take that course of action. That is exactly what causes chaos. 

Freewill causes chaos.

evolutionary psychology disagrees with that assertion in that our decisions are already made long before we ourselves know it. Free will? Bah Evoultionary psychology laughs at the notion.
*Disclaimer not my personal opinion but using free will as an argument is iffy at best

Modifié par darkchief10, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:54 .