235 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Zha created AI that turned against them. It is the same case when Quarians created Geth. So this whole post is pointless. AI always destroy organic life, in every story. Every.

If brought on Priority: Geth Dreadnought, Javik will compare the geth to the zha'til, a synthetic race of his time that was corrupted by the Reapers before the Protheans set their star supernova; Shepard mentions the reluctance involved with destroying the Alpha Relay.  - Javik´s unique dialog from Geth Dreadnought.

[guacamayus]

here we go again...

Synthesis does not merge organics and synthetics, those creatures are not a product of synthesis; they were organics interfaced with an AI, if you want to compare it to something try project overlord which has a lot more in common.

Actually, a perfect example of this could be when the geth upload themselves into the quarian's suit.

Modifié par guacamayus, 17 juillet 2012 - 02:32 .

[The Night Mammoth]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Zha created AI that turned against them. It is the same case when Quarians created Geth.

Someone hasn't been paying attention.

So this whole post is pointless. AI always destroy organic life, in every story. Every.

Except that's evidently not true.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 17 juillet 2012 - 02:50 .

[Applepie_Svk]

guacamayus wrote...

here we go again...

Synthesis does not merge organics and synthetics, those creatures are not a product of synthesis; they were organics interfaced with an AI, if you want to compare it to something try project overlord which has a lot more in common.

 

Synthesis - definition:

In general, the noun synthesis refers to a combination of two or more entities that together form something new; alternately, it refers to the creating of something by artificial means. 

So by that deffinition isn´t even synthesis for every organic what is trying to achieve Catalyst, because he has no access to flexibile DNA which would help to change everyone. He has just a Shepard´s DNA - human DNA which with combination with synthetic should change only humans and synthetics. You would need from each species one sample for working synthesis for every species. - simply said SPACE MAGIC 

guacamayus wrote... 
Actually, a perfect example of this could be when the geth upload themselves into the quarian's suit.

Geths were uploaded into suits not imlanted into body, which is difference betwen what happened to Zha and Quarians.


It wasn´t point, point was that the Reapers are those which always bring chaos with their supposed solution.
Also Zha and Zha´til lived together in peace-symbiosis until Reapers arrived and turn Zha´til agains thier creators and took control over body of their organic creators. 

Symbiosis - is co-existance of two organism which entirely deppends each on another.

[guacamayus]

Don't twist words, synthesis improves organics through technology, that has nothing to do with what you are talking about, and don't pull a definition out of thin air specially if it has nothing to do with what the crucible does.

The Zha improved their brain through technology, implanting an AI to augment their intelligence, the AI took control of the mind and modeled the body as it saw fit.

Synthesis changes the body at a molecular level so we all evolve at the same rate, we are never told that organics merge themselves with AI just by choosing synthesis, in fact the Geth are shown as individuals during EDI's speech.

There are many things that suck about synthesis, things that can be considered magic in a sci-fi universe, however this is just another attempt to convince everyone that synthesis is evil. If you want to do that I suggest you replay the ending first, synthesis does not add any AI into organics, if they choose to do so in the future is just speculation.

The reapers did mess that supposed harmony between them but I assume the Catalyst didn't think that peace would last. However maybe that's the whole point of the story; the Catalyst motives are twisted and its solution only makes sense to itself. Remember, the crucible is created by organics, not the reapers, this type of synthesis is developed by us.

Modifié par guacamayus, 17 juillet 2012 - 03:35 .

[Penumbra80]

The Zha implanted fully developed artificial intelligence into their bodies, capable of independent decision making and action. It really has nothing to do with synthesis at all, more like the law of unintended consequences striking again. That should pretty much answer your question right there.

[Taco Del Marr]

Also in ME 1 we only fight the heretic Geth because they are being lead by Sovereign

[Applepie_Svk]

Taco Del Marr wrote...

Also in ME 1 we only fight the heretic Geth because they are being lead by Sovereign

It was Heretics little fraction of geths...

[robertthebard]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Zha'til 
The zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable. When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely.


So Zha was species which achieved synthesis on their own - they did it from need but it worked, with arrival Reaper simply turn them into another freakshow. There is only three explanations:

- Catalyst never looked for solution

- Catalyst never allowed to anyone achieve synthesis without his GOD permision 

- Catalyst never existed

... teeheee I am looking forward to your explanations ...

Symbiosis

Synthesis

Thesaurus Synthesis

Hmm, so two totally unrelated concepts equal the same thing.  This is what's wrong with BSN.  By the Symbiosis == Synthesis arguement, a tape worm shares your thoughts, and you share it's thoughts.  Interesting philosophy, of course, it's totally not true, but hey, what ever helps you prove a point, right?

[AngryFrozenWater]

@maaaze:

From a role playing point of view I can understand that all ending options have their charm, but as soon as one tries to think about these options then the reasoning behind these fall apart.

You keep on believing the brat and the boys, despite of a 1 billion year of cyclical genocide spree. You keep on believing in the brat's hypothetical threat. There is no proof whatsoever. All evidence points to the opposite. From turning synthetics against organics to building the stage on the Citadel where Shepard talks to the brat. That stage happens to perfectly interface with the Crucible.

Your views about the validity of the three main options are colored, because you seem to believe that the brat somehow makes sense. You rationalize every proof away, because the end justifies the means and because the brat was somehow programmed to do what he did. Yet, you cannot provide proof for the brats claims.

A VI is a static program, which can only reason in a limited way. However, the brat is an AI. For an organism, that is self-aware and capable of creative and independent thought, it doesn't matter whether it has an biochemical or synthetic brain. That means it can reason and change its goals. It did that several times when it changed its "solutions". Yet it never came to the conclusion that its hostile interference was the biggest threat. Even in the destroy option it shoves genocide of the geth through your throat. It's sick reasoning doesn't have an end.

"The Catalyst has no hope and expects in the endresult the worst."

The synthetics we have seen were never hostile. They were turned hostile by the reapers or were attacked by organics. And that happend in the case of the zha'til and zha too. The reapers turned them into a threat and the protheans blew them up. It proves that the threat is not inevitable, even when the reapers tried to stage it.

In our own history the conflict between organics never stopped. It is all about greed, power and resources. Should we exterminate all humans on Earth? That would make an end of it. Are you willing to die for that cause? Because it is inevitable that humans fight humans. Look around you. And look at the ME universe. Lots of conflict between organics there and it doesn't seem to stop.

"It only proves that conflicts can be won by Organics...but not all the time."

Up until now organics have never won from the reapers. It is simple to end it. Select destroy. We would be fine, because other synthetics never were a threat and if the reapers or organics turned them hostile we always won. There goes your "inevitability". But I bet you also believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You don't? Why? It does exist, you know. It already infiltrated in the highest levels of your government. The fact that you have never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 17 juillet 2012 - 05:35 .

[Mazebook]

Lochmonster2012 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Lochmonster2012 wrote...

Hmm yes, yes ... very thought provoking stuff but answer a few questions for me,

1. so when the magic space  beam of green light goes out how does one obtain the synthetic (For organics) and organic (for syntectics/knowledge?) parts needed to become apart of the collect.... i mean the new golden age?

2. So the reason we listen to star brat is because he is an advanced AI, and that he has had countless millenia (as far as we know) to think upon this while he killed and converted his creators into reaper form and countless other (given what we see of the reaper fleet Remember each ship or two is one cycle) , thus starting the cycle out of HIS own fault, thus condeming every SENTIENT life to a cycle of a measly and yes i say measly due to the fact that however as long as the Star brat has been "alive" it is a teeny tinny portion given what we are told and shown (Stated above), thus he has the right to change us because one person is allowed to decide the fate of all?

3. Also fill in a few plotholes for me, most if not all games that are a trilogy up should have the main end planned out right and in a game like this more sub endings planned out near the start then how come star brat just didnt tell the keepers that are on HIS HOME to open the Massive deep space relay or do it himself? and why is the reapers motive to hard to understand in ME but easily told in ME 3?

and thats all i can think of at the moment and mute is turning off volume, moot is the word for a moot point.

Hi, there...i guess you were talking to me?!

1. I am not sure what you mean?! I guess you mean how they stay part synthetic and organic?
    well they were changed on a atomic level...so both have the chance to evolve (if further evolution is possible)
    at the same time with the same speed. So they would evolve along the same lines...as long as they are not     seperated from each other.

btw. everything in Sci-Fi is by definition space magic

2. 
 thus starting the cycle out of HIS own fault, thus condeming every SENTIENT life to a cycle of a measly and yes i say measly due to the fact that however as long as the Star brat has been "alive" it is a teeny tinny portion given what we are told and shown (Stated above), thus he has the right to change us because one person is allowed to decide the fate of all? 

Your point is alittle bit confusing. The Catalyst said that he tried many solutions (maybe he really tried all) and this was the only solution that worked (taking away the Individuality of both partys and combining them into one being)

Nobody says he has the right to change us...that right was given by the creators by accident since they given him too much power....so i am not sure what you point is.

3. 
Also fill in a few plotholes for me, most if not all games that are a trilogy up should have the main end planned out right and in a game like this more sub endings planned out near the start then how come star brat just didnt tell the keepers that are on HIS HOME to open the Massive deep space relay or do it himself? and why is the reapers motive to hard to understand in ME but easily told in ME 3? 

First it would not make sense that he would make a solution that would depend on himself...because this solution would not be final by default...so he is not involved in the solution beyond the initial creation.

second...he can´t...just because he lives there does not mean has control over it. The keepers were suppose to do that...and the Protheans changed the Keepers ...so they would not respond.

The reapers motives were a mystery and were revealed at the last minutes of the plot...and it seems to me that many people have a hard time understanding the reapers motives...though i think it is not that hard.



Thanks for pointing out  that it is moot and not mute...

i was asking anyone really but too point out a few things tho
1. does that mean that we arnt individual anymore so in the first too games are telling us how genectically diverse the humans are and thats what makes us special, so in the catalysts view the ends justify forcibly changing everyone AGAINST the majoritys will i might add to a single PERFECT dna strands therefore, sentients become stagnant because they do not have to evolve anymore so there is not really any goal in life anymore unless you include going to other galaxies somehow and forcing the SENTIENTS there to join the collect... i mean the golden age?

2. and umm my point was umm i am a bit confused myself but i think i meant that just becasue it happened every other cycle Mabye? that this is infact the only option why not just give Synthetics knowledge of organics and how they work but ask each person if they want to be forcibly upgrade to a Cyborg?? borg? or just let the synthetics be knowledge and give something for organics to still strive for with help of the synthetics (bar reapers they must die too many war crimes) but do all synthectics that we know of want to be forced down the path and given a future and all the answers i dont think so like legion said  "Geth Build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us."

and the catalyst would know if something was wrong or why they didnt activate the deep space mass relay, i mean he is a Advanced AI, he** he is more advanced then EDI in number three and she can do alot of things at once why cant he??

1.No...people have still unique personalitys...they are not one hive mind. which makes it the opposite end to the reaper solution.

People are shown to explain things to each other and communicate.
Also there are still krogan babys born...so it is implied that they remain physical the same and the species still have unique traits. The egality moves along synthetic and organic differences. The strife to better yourself through technology is now open for everyone and moves at the same speed as the synthetic evolution.
In turn the synthetics can now understand their own existance, gaining individuality and attachments based on their own  free will. They are nolonger bound to their programming in any way. Every piece of sentient Technology is as free as the organics.

2. It would not work, because of the power gap. Pure organics would fight Syn-Organics. Out of fear... and Syn-Organics would feel superior. The point of Synthesis that the power gap the Synthetics have through their faster evolution is gone and everybody can now grow equaly + have a better sense of understanding each others.
Conflict is now a product of Ideological differences instead of lack of understanding and  power gaps.
Synthesis only works if everybody is on the same level.


3. Is you last question qhy he did not interven in ME 1?
If so...I think he simply does not control the citadel itself...(which is why you could open the arms in the first place) only the reapers and the keepers. but not technologie itself.


I am not sure if that answered your question...if not feel free to ask some more.

Modifié par maaaze, 29 août 2012 - 12:17 .