235 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

maaaze wrote...



Nope...Zah´til are just Quarians and Geth in one body...they are still TWO seperate beings...

what synthesis does is one being that is synthetic and organic combined.

Ah, so you are saying that is good when we violate everyone DNA and Processors by spacemagic turning everyone into mindwashed peaceful abominations ... but it´s wrong when someone achieve symbiosis and synthezis at once with own way ? Hmmm Catalyst´s propaganda LoL´ed

[Chaotic-Fusion]

maaaze wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

maaaze wrote...

/facepalm x4

and how do you think they did that...? 2 minds / one organic / one A.I.

By controlling the AIs, as Reapers do. Who then seized control of their organic hosts.

which one did they attack?!....who was the master...who was the slave...please...Think for ONE second before you reply.

Master is a poor choice of words given everything we know about the Zha'til. Host would be more appropriate. Nothing says the Zha'til were slaves until the Reapers, you know, enslaved them.

the point is they were seperate entities ... .There was an organic part and a synthetic part.. the reapers took control of the synthetic part who ceased controly of the organic part.

it is implied that the organic part was in control before.

" transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves.  "

The catalyst's theory is that the created always rebel against their creators. The zha and the zha'til (created and creator, synthethic and organic) were coexisting peacefully, probably for decades or centuries. Then the reapers came, the catalyst's "toys", and turned the zha against the zha'til, making them into slaves, thereby contradicting the nonsense the catalyst feeds us at the end of ME3.

[alienatedflea]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Zha'til 
The zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable. When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely.


So Zha was species which achieved synthesis on their own - they did it from need but it worked, with arrival Reaper simply turn them into another freakshow. There is only three explanations:

- Catalyst never looked for solution

- Catalyst never allowed to anyone achieve synthesis without his GOD permision 

- Catalyst never existed

... teeheee I am looking forward to your explanations ...

first off, its a game (explanation one)
Secondly, Synthesis has to be done with the crucible (much like destroying the reapers or controlling them) which is not the case with your example...

[Xellith]

Symbiosis implies that both parties are working together for a common interest in survival. The Reapers took control of the AI's and turned them into slaves. This in turn caused the physical bodies to be controlled.

The AI wernt slaves.  Not until the reapers came along.

You have Bacteria in you right now that help you to digest food. Are they slaves? Or do they get nutrients to survive when you eat also?

Same deal here.

Modifié par Xellith, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:15 .

[The Angry One]

alienatedflea wrote...

first off, its a game (explanation one)

Being a game justifies bad, self-contradictory writing now?

Secondly, Synthesis has to be done with the crucible (much like destroying the reapers or controlling them) which is not the case with your example...

Why not? It's small scale synthesis, but it's synthesis. Haven't the Zha'til proven it's possible and viable? They have achieved the Catalyst's goal, so why not leave them in peace?

[Mazebook]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

maaaze wrote...



Nope...Zah´til are just Quarians and Geth in one body...they are still TWO seperate beings...

what synthesis does is one being that is synthetic and organic combined.

Ah, so you are saying that is good when we violate everyone DNA and Processors by spacemagic turning everyone into mindwashed peaceful abominations ... but it´s wrong when someone achieve symbiosis and synthezis at once with own way ? Hmmm Catalyst´s propaganda LoL´ed

I haven´t given any indiecation of judging ether scenario...what i think of them ethically is irrelevant...
I just say that these are two seperate things

Synthesis = one mind

Symbioses = two seperate minds interacting

[Applepie_Svk]

The Angry One wrote...


Why not? It's small scale synthesis, but it's synthesis. Haven't the Zha'til proven it's possible and viable? They have achieved the Catalyst's goal, so why not leave them in peace?

It´s anti-Catalyst propaganda...

maaaze wrote...


I haven´t given any indiecation of judging ether scenario...what i think of them ethically is irrelevant...
I just say that these are two seperate things

Synthesis = one mind

Symbioses = two seperate minds interacting

 

But they achieved with symbiosis also synthesis ... Organics get their perfection and Synthetics get their understanding...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:18 .

[The Angry One]

maaaze wrote...

I haven´t given any indiecation of judging ether scenario...what i think of them ethically is irrelevant...
I just say that these are two seperate things

Synthesis = one mind

Symbioses = two seperate minds interacting

Yeah last I checked the Geth and organics still have seperate minds, only connected somehow. For peace and stuff.

[Baronesa]

maaaze wrote...

Synthesis = one mind

Symbioses = two seperate minds interacting

Are you implying one mind shared by all the people in synthesis?

Everyone in the galaxy shares a mind?

[Krunjar]

What the Zha'Til achieved is not by any definition synthesis. This is a weak contrived argument.

[Mazebook]

Baronesa wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Synthesis = one mind

Symbioses = two seperate minds interacting

Are you implying one mind shared by all the people in synthesis?

Everyone in the galaxy shares a mind?

No !

I say that everybody in Synthesis is one mind one body...zah´til = two minds one body.

[The Angry One]

Krunjar wrote...

What the Zha'Til achieved is not by any definition synthesis. This is a weak contrived argument.

Because?

[Jackums]

Krunjar wrote...

What the Zha'Til achieved is not by any definition synthesis. This is a weak contrived argument.

[Baronesa]

maaaze wrote...

No !

I say that everybody in Synthesis is one mind one body...zah´til = two minds one body.

That is irrelevant, since synthetics don't need bodies, they could all upload their conciousness on ships, Dyson SPheres or like the Geth did... on the Quarian suits... or on the synthetic part of the new synthezised organisms.

[Cheviot]

Baronesa wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Synthesis = one mind

Symbioses = two seperate minds interacting

Are you implying one mind shared by all the people in synthesis?

Everyone in the galaxy shares a mind?

I think he's talking about the individual.  In the symbiosis mentioned in the OP, the organic and AI would be separate but sharing the same body; in synthesis, the individual would be of one mind, but the entire body would have changed to give it what it lacked (either synthetic or organic). 

[Mazebook]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

maaaze wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

maaaze wrote...

/facepalm x4

and how do you think they did that...? 2 minds / one organic / one A.I.

By controlling the AIs, as Reapers do. Who then seized control of their organic hosts.

which one did they attack?!....who was the master...who was the slave...please...Think for ONE second before you reply.

Master is a poor choice of words given everything we know about the Zha'til. Host would be more appropriate. Nothing says the Zha'til were slaves until the Reapers, you know, enslaved them.

the point is they were seperate entities ... .There was an organic part and a synthetic part.. the reapers took control of the synthetic part who ceased controly of the organic part.

it is implied that the organic part was in control before.

" transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves.  "

The catalyst's theory is that the created always rebel against their creators. The zha and the zha'til (created and creator, synthethic and organic) were coexisting peacefully, probably for decades or centuries. Then the reapers came, the catalyst's "toys", and turned the zha against the zha'til, making them into slaves, thereby contradicting the nonsense the catalyst feeds us at the end of ME3.

decades and centuries are a very short time...we don´t know how the relationship between the 2 were developing... 

maybe the rebellion was about to happen when the reapers arrived...we don´t know...so it can´t be used as an arguement against "Synthetics vs Organics".

[Mazebook]

Baronesa wrote...

maaaze wrote...

No !

I say that everybody in Synthesis is one mind one body...zah´til = two minds one body.

That is irrelevant, since synthetics don't need bodies, they could all upload their conciousness on ships, Dyson SPheres or like the Geth did... on the Quarian suits... or on the synthetic part of the new synthezised organisms.

but the synthetics were connected to the bodys...int the case of the zah´til...the A.I. were there to enhance the body and mind of the zah.

Cheviot wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Are you implying one mind shared by all the people in synthesis?

Everyone in the galaxy shares a mind?

I think he's talking about the individual.  In the symbiosis mentioned in the OP, the organic and AI would be separate but sharing the same body; in synthesis, the individual would be of one mind, but the entire body would have changed to give it what it lacked (either synthetic or organic).  

 
exactly.

Modifié par maaaze, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:29 .

[Grimwick]

maaaze wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

maaaze wrote...

No !

I say that everybody in Synthesis is one mind one body...zah´til = two minds one body.

That is irrelevant, since synthetics don't need bodies, they could all upload their conciousness on ships, Dyson SPheres or like the Geth did... on the Quarian suits... or on the synthetic part of the new synthezised organisms.

but the synthetics were connected to the bodys...int the case of the zah´til...the A.I. were there to enhance the body and mind of the zah.

Cheviot wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Are you implying one mind shared by all the people in synthesis?

Everyone in the galaxy shares a mind?

I think he's talking about the individual.  In the symbiosis mentioned in the OP, the organic and AI would be separate but sharing the same body; in synthesis, the individual would be of one mind, but the entire body would have changed to give it what it lacked (either synthetic or organic).  

 
exactly.

Just a thought but we don't know enough about synthesis to conclude that this is not how it works.

Besides, your speculations don't prove a single thing until you can provide evidence.

[Grimwick]

Krunjar wrote...

What the Zha'Til achieved is not by any definition synthesis. This is a weak contrived argument.

When you come in and make a statement like that you more or less need to explain it....

[Applepie_Svk]

Krunjar wrote...

What the Zha'Til achieved is not by any definition synthesis. This is a weak contrived argument.

It´s not argument as much against synthesis as much against Catalyst and his explanation : The Created will always rebel against their creators. What Zha and Zha´til achieved is not by definition synthesis but it´s simbiosis  thru they gain synthesis without using space magic - the created get understanding and creators get perfection. One body but two souls - yes and still they live peacefully, AI could rebel and turn creators into abominations sooner but they didn´t do that - not until Reapers force them into.

Something different for example happened with Geths which have no desire in following their Creators, their consensus was shapped into geths and heretics after what Nazara transmited a signal about Reaper arrival.
Part of geths change their opinion their consensus and start worshiping the Reapers and it was just a synthetic species - the geths never look for conflict with organics until Reaper show themselves and lead them into conflict. If you are taking geths as one big mind than with arrival of Reapers shape this mind into more fragments and also change their way of thinking - it is proving just that Reapers use anything which can serve their cause despite what happened in past.

[What a Succulent Ass]

maaaze wrote...

Nope...Zah´til are just Quarians and Geth in one body...they are still TWO seperate beings...

what synthesis does is one being that is synthetic and organic combined.

What is your point? The entire idea behind synthesis is to prevent synthetic/organic conflict. There was no such conflict between the Zha and Zha'til before the reapers came along, and "it could have happened" is not an argument.

It's a contradiction.

[The Angry One]

JackumsD wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

What the Zha'Til achieved is not by any definition synthesis. This is a weak contrived argument.

Because?

[CroGamer002]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Zha'til were not Reaper approved synthesis, and thus infringed on the Catalyst's copyright.

Edit: When you think about it, the whole Prothean cycle is a farce.

Reapers: "Here we are to save you from the synthetics!"

Protheans: "Uh, we're winning our war against synthetics."

Zha: "We peacefully co-exist with ours in a form of synthesis."

Reapers: "Nonsense! Synthetics will destroy you all. We're here to save you by preserving you in Reaper form! Well except you, Zha. Because reasons. Not you either, Protheans because you have weird DNA. It's your own fault really. Don't worry, we'll make you into zombie minions instead! BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT!"

:lol:

Perfect.

[Mazebook]

Random Jerkface wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Nope...Zah´til are just Quarians and Geth in one body...they are still TWO seperate beings...

what synthesis does is one being that is synthetic and organic combined.

What is your point? The entire idea behind synthesis is to prevent synthetic/organic conflict. There was no such conflict between the Zha and Zha'til before the reapers came along, and "it could have happened" is not an argument.

It's a contradiction.

as is "it would never happend"... there is no arguing for or against the Catalyst statement with the Zah´til... 

[Krunjar]

The Angry One wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

What the Zha'Til achieved is not by any definition synthesis. This is a weak contrived argument.

Because?

 /sigh you know what AngryOne I kinda respected your stance until now. I didn't agree with it but I respected it.  I honestly thought you wouldn't need to be told what is  wrong with this argument. First an examination of synthesis. Synthesis re writes the fundamental structure of life in order to elimate the difference between synthetic and organic life. This does not promise a world without conflict. But it does mean that the worth inherent in organic life will not dissapear from the galaxy effectiveley obsolescizing the reapers.

Zha'til 
The
zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the
Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted
themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in
order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable.

"Ok let's  take time to  examine the above the AI technology that the Zha implanted is specifically referred to as symbiotic. This already labels them as two seperate entities that exist in the same body and cooperate with one another. This already stops what the Zha'til did from being synthesis. Since no being created by true synthesis would even need such  an "implantation" procedure"

When the
Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then
seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic
material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic
monsters and their offspring into slaves.

"This is where most of the confusion arises methinks. Alot of people equate the AI seizing control of the  body as "Synthesis" but this is not true it has mereley Hi-jacked the biological components either destroying or imprisoning the organic mind in the process. Even though  the  end result of such a misbegotten fusion would look partially organic in the way that they think they are still wholey synthetic. In the end the function of our bodies and cells is entireley mechanical. The difference between synthetic and organic is in the mind not in the components of the body. A few might argue that "altering their genetic material at the deepest level" hints at synthesis but honestly this is reaching. There are many ways to alter DNA and the mere fact that synthesis was not achieved previous to the crucible according to the catalyst (you may not like it but it IS cannon) confirms that DNA alteration does NOT refer to synthesis in this case.

The zha'til proceeded to
multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no
other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system
into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely.

Modifié par Krunjar, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:46 .