235 réponses à ce sujet

[elitehunter34]

Random Jerkface wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Nope...Zah´til are just Quarians and Geth in one body...they are still TWO seperate beings...

what synthesis does is one being that is synthetic and organic combined.

What is your point? The entire idea behind synthesis is to prevent synthetic/organic conflict. There was no such conflict between the Zha and Zha'til before the reapers came along, and "it could have happened" is not an argument.

It's a contradiction.

Exactly.  That's why it's silly.  If Zah'til synthesis isn't good enough for the Catalyst, then it makes no goddamn sense why the regular synthesis is.  What the Zah did is essentially synthesis.  They used synthetics to improve themselves.  Why does it matter if they are seperate entities?

[The Angry One]

Krunjar wrote...

 /sigh you know what AngryOne I kinda respected your stance until now. I didn't agree with it but I respected it.  I honestly thought you wouldn't need to be told what is  wrong with this argument. First an examination of synthesis. Synthesis re writes the fundamental structure of life in order to elimate the difference between synthetic and organic life. This does not promise a world without conflict. But it does mean that the worth inherent in organic life will not dissapear from the galaxy effectiveley obsolescizing the reapers.

No it doesn't, since organic life has been fundamentally changed.

"Ok let's  take time to  examine the above the AI technology that the Zha implanted is specifically referred to as symbiotic. This already labels them as two seperate entities that exist in the same body and cooperate with one another. This already stops what the Zha'til did from being synthesis."

It is a form of synthesis. Arguably it is a better form, because it preserves organics in their original form.
Regardless of the mechanics of it, these are organics and synthetics, co-existing as one being. Each helps the other to survive, and both were fine until the Reapers came.

"This is where most of the confusion arises methinks. Alot of people equate the AI seizing control of the  body as "Synthesis" but this is not true it has mereley Hi-jacked the biological components either destroying or imprisoning the organic mind in the process. Even though  the  end result of such a misbegotten fusion would look partially organic in the way that they think they are still wholey synthetic. In the end the function of our bodies and cells is entireley mechanical. The difference between synthetic and organic is in the mind not in the components of the body. A few might argue that "altering their genetic material at the deepest level" hints at synthesis but honestly this is reaching. There are many ways to alter DNA and the mere fact that synthesis was not achieved previous to the crucible according to the catalyst (you may not like it but it IS cannon) confirms that DNA alteration does NOT refer to synthesis in this case.

Oh my gawd this again. WE SEE THE DNA BEING ALTERED.
How can you deny this based on what the Catalyst says when this is what we SEE? Is the synthesis ending a lie then?

Modifié par The Angry One, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:48 .

[Baronesa]

Krunjar wrote...

First an examination of synthesis. Synthesis re writes the fundamental structure of life in order to elimate the difference between synthetic and organic life. This does not promise a world without conflict. But it does mean that the worth inherent in organic life will not dissapear from the galaxy effectiveley obsolescizing the reapers.

Synthetics are still synthetics, they only gain "an understanding of organics" Organics however become an organic/synthetic hybrid.

The difference is still there, but now Synthetics "Understand" organics, whatever that means.

[What a Succulent Ass]

maaaze wrote...

as is "it would never happend"... there is no arguing for or against the Catalyst statement with the Zah´til... 

Don't strawman. I never said that.

That being said, it's irrelevant. When making a claim, one must substantiate it. The burden of evidence is on the claimant.

[Cheviot]

elitehunter34 wrote...
Exactly.  That's why it's silly.  If Zah'til synthesis isn't good enough for the Catalyst, then it makes no goddamn sense why the regular synthesis is.  What the Zah did is essentially synthesis.  They used synthetics to improve themselves.  Why does it matter if they are seperate entities?

Because as long as they are two separate entities, one organic, the other synthetic, there is always a high chance of synthetic rebellion.

[The Angry One]

Cheviot wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...
Exactly.  That's why it's silly.  If Zah'til synthesis isn't good enough for the Catalyst, then it makes no goddamn sense why the regular synthesis is.  What the Zah did is essentially synthesis.  They used synthetics to improve themselves.  Why does it matter if they are seperate entities?

Because as long as they are two separate entities, one organic, the other synthetic, there is always a high chance of synthetic rebellion.

And as long as we keep making bees produce honey for us there's always a high chance of a bee rebellion.

Bees. My god.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Cheviot wrote...

Because as long as they are two separate entities, one organic, the other synthetic, there is always a high chance of synthetic rebellion.

Furreal.

I didn't just fever dream this line?

[Pacifien]

Baronesa wrote...
The difference is still there, but now Synthetics "Understand" organics, whatever that means.

Think of it as suddenly gaining the ability to understand one's mother.

Or maybe that's just me.

[Fredvdp]

The catalyst says synthesis can't be forced. They attempted it before but the organics weren't ready. He says the current cycle is ready. I din't think they explained why we're ready, though.

The Angry One wrote...

The Zha'til were not Reaper approved synthesis, and thus infringed on the Catalyst's copyright.

Edit: When you think about it, the whole Prothean cycle is a farce.

Reapers: "Here we are to save you from the synthetics!"

Protheans: "Uh, we're winning our war against synthetics."

Zha: "We peacefully co-exist with ours in a form of synthesis."

Reapers: "Nonsense! Synthetics will destroy you all. We're here to save you by preserving you in Reaper form! Well except you, Zha. Because reasons. Not you either, Protheans because you have weird DNA. It's your own fault really. Don't worry, we'll make you into zombie minions instead! BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT!"

I think the Reapers want to avoid conflict between organics and synthetics altogether, no matter who's winning.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:59 .

[Krunjar]

The Angry One wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

 /sigh you know what AngryOne I kinda respected your stance until now. I didn't agree with it but I respected it.  I honestly thought you wouldn't need to be told what is  wrong with this argument. First an examination of synthesis. Synthesis re writes the fundamental structure of life in order to elimate the difference between synthetic and organic life. This does not promise a world without conflict. But it does mean that the worth inherent in organic life will not dissapear from the galaxy effectiveley obsolescizing the reapers.

No it doesn't, since organic life has been fundamentally changed.

"Ok let's  take time to  examine the above the AI technology that the Zha implanted is specifically referred to as symbiotic. This already labels them as two seperate entities that exist in the same body and cooperate with one another. This already stops what the Zha'til did from being synthesis."

It is a form of synthesis. Arguably it is a better form, because it preserves organics in their original form.
Regardless of the mechanics of it, these are organics and synthetics, co-existing as one being. Each helps the other to survive, and both were fine until the Reapers came.

[/b]

[b]"This is where most of the confusion arises methinks. Alot of people equate the AI seizing control of the  body as "Synthesis" but this is not true it has mereley Hi-jacked the biological components either destroying or imprisoning the organic mind in the process. Even though  the  end result of such a misbegotten fusion would look partially organic in the way that they think they are still wholey synthetic. In the end the function of our bodies and cells is entireley mechanical. The difference between synthetic and organic is in the mind not in the components of the body. A few might argue that "altering their genetic material at the deepest level" hints at synthesis but honestly this is reaching. There are many ways to alter DNA and the mere fact that synthesis was not achieved previous to the crucible according to the catalyst (you may not like it but it IS cannon) confirms that DNA alteration does NOT refer to synthesis in this case.

Oh my gawd this again. WE SEE THE DNA BEING ALTERED.
How can you deny this based on what the Catalyst says when this is what we SEE? Is the synthesis ending a lie then?

Organic life changes as does synthetic, they become something new with the worth and value of both. You can disagree and cry about it if you like but this is the absolute implication of  the synthesis ending. And frankly your third point sounds more like the ravings of the demented than anything else. I already stated that there is more than one way to alter DNA. It is the difference between changing the words and changing the language. If you still don't get it you are either close minded or an idiot.

[The Angry One]

Fredvdp wrote...
I think the Reapers want to avoid conflict between organics and synthetics altogether, no matter who's winning.

For all the Catalyst's talk of inevitablity, it should know conflict is inevitable and always will be.
If it doesn't lead to extinciton, which it never has, what is the problem exactly?

[Cheviot]

The Angry One wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...
Exactly.  That's why it's silly.  If Zah'til synthesis isn't good enough for the Catalyst, then it makes no goddamn sense why the regular synthesis is.  What the Zah did is essentially synthesis.  They used synthetics to improve themselves.  Why does it matter if they are seperate entities?

Because as long as they are two separate entities, one organic, the other synthetic, there is always a high chance of synthetic rebellion.

And as long as we keep making bees produce honey for us there's always a high chance of a bee rebellion.

Bees. My god.

What have bees got to do with this?

Modifié par Cheviot, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:00 .

[Fredvdp]

The Angry One wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...
I think the Reapers want to avoid conflict between organics and synthetics altogether, no matter who's winning.

For all the Catalyst's talk of inevitablity, it should know conflict is inevitable and always will be.
If it doesn't lead to extinciton, which it never has, what is the problem exactly?

I didn't say I agree with the Catalyst. I believe conflict is necessary. Javik agrees with me.

[The Angry One]

Krunjar wrote...

Organic life changes as does synthetic, they become something new with the worth and value of both. You can disagree and cry about it if you like but this is the absolute implication of  the synthesis ending.

If it changes, then it's no longer being preserved.

And frankly your third point sounds more like the ravings of the demented than anything else. I already stated that there is more than one way to alter DNA. It is the difference between changing the words and changing the language. If you still don't get it you are either close minded or an idiot.

However DNA is being altered doesn't change the fact that it's being altered, and none of your insults can be used to deny this simple fact.

[The Angry One]

Cheviot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...
Exactly.  That's why it's silly.  If Zah'til synthesis isn't good enough for the Catalyst, then it makes no goddamn sense why the regular synthesis is.  What the Zah did is essentially synthesis.  They used synthetics to improve themselves.  Why does it matter if they are seperate entities?

Because as long as they are two separate entities, one organic, the other synthetic, there is always a high chance of synthetic rebellion.

And as long as we keep making bees produce honey for us there's always a high chance of a bee rebellion.

Bees. My god.

What have bees got to do with this conversation?

You're using a baseless appeal to probability. So am I. I'm showing you how ridiculous appeals to probability are.

[Baronesa]

Krunjar wrote...

Organic life changes as does synthetic, they become something new with the worth and value of both. You can disagree and cry about it if you like but this is the absolute implication of  the synthesis ending. And frankly your third point sounds more like the ravings of the demented than anything else. I already stated that there is more than one way to alter DNA. It is the difference between changing the words and changing the language. If you still don't get it you are either close minded or an idiot.

*facepalm*

How does synthetic life change? Please don't say they gain new DNA or I'll throw up.

You can't change DNA in that way and then claim they are the same species altogether

[Krunjar]

The Angry One wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

Organic life changes as does synthetic, they become something new with the worth and value of both. You can disagree and cry about it if you like but this is the absolute implication of  the synthesis ending.

If it changes, then it's no longer being preserved.

And frankly your third point sounds more like the ravings of the demented than anything else. I already stated that there is more than one way to alter DNA. It is the difference between changing the words and changing the language. If you still don't get it you are either close minded or an idiot.

However DNA is being altered doesn't change the fact that it's being altered, and none of your insults can be used to deny this simple fact.

Never said DNA wasn't being altered. It was you that first scanned through my post not properly reading it. And decided that I was claiming that. And as for your first point there. honestly it holds some water but it's just bloody minded. It's  like saying that because you are saying bonjour you aren't really saying hello anymore. It all depends on your definitions. And planting your feet on an issue like that is just ..  well .. stupid. And hey you don't wanna be insulted? then don't insult my intelligence by making me explain what anyone should be able to infer.

@ Baronessa : Granted this is one of the things the synthesis ending didn't nail right down. But my theory is that their changes where more systematic. Changing their very thaught processes to more closeley resemble organics. With fully developed emotional capability. Some AI where capable of emotion before this. But it was stinted by the fact that those programming the AI didn't really understand it themselves let alone understood how to implement that into a synthetic brain. Honestly though this  is an area where someone who hates synthesis can tear at the ending.  But that is more because of a lack of information than for any particular wrongmess.

Modifié par Krunjar, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:13 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

How does synthetic life change? Please don't say they gain new DNA

BUT THEY DO.

[Cheviot]

The Angry One wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

elitehunter34 wrote...
Exactly.  That's why it's silly.  If Zah'til synthesis isn't good enough for the Catalyst, then it makes no goddamn sense why the regular synthesis is.  What the Zah did is essentially synthesis.  They used synthetics to improve themselves.  Why does it matter if they are seperate entities?

Because as long as they are two separate entities, one organic, the other synthetic, there is always a high chance of synthetic rebellion.

And as long as we keep making bees produce honey for us there's always a high chance of a bee rebellion.

Bees. My god.

What have bees got to do with this conversation?

You're using a baseless appeal to probability. So am I. I'm showing you how ridiculous appeals to probability are.

The Catalyst says that as organics become more dependent on synthetics, when they need them to do more, they will eventually design them so they can suppass organics, and this will make them suspicious of them, leading to synthetic rebellion.  The Quarian reaction to the Geth supports this.  The memories in the Geth Consensus suggest how this rebellion may start.

The Zha need the AI to help them as their homeworld becomes inhospitable.  As it becomes more inhospitable, the likelihood increases that they'll give the AI more power and abilities to help them.  When this happens, the likelihood of rebellion increases.

That is the basis for my argument.  You may disagree with my reasoning, but I think it holds up better than, say, an argument based on reductio ad absurdum.

[Applepie_Svk]

Cheviot wrote...

The Catalyst says that as organics become more dependent on synthetics, when they need them to do more, they will eventually design them so they can suppass organics, and this will make them suspicious of them, leading to synthetic rebellion.  The Quarian reaction to the Geth supports this.  The memories in the Geth Consensus suggest how this rebellion may start.

The Zha need the AI to help them as their homeworld becomes inhospitable.  As it becomes more inhospitable, the likelihood increases that they'll give the AI more power and abilities to help them.  When this happens, the likelihood of rebellion increases.

Quarians reaction proves that Quarians act as idiots and Geth reaction proves it right because geths had no desire in conflict, if they had than as I said now we would have Milky Way under influence of Geths instead organics...

Zha and Zha´til live together for who knows how long but rebelion cause just arrival of Reapers and their influence over AI.

[The Angry One]

Krunjar wrote...

Never said DNA wasn't being altered. It was you that first scanned through my post not properly reading it. And decided that I was claiming that.

You were claiming that somehow DNA alteration does not relate to synthesis. Do me a favour and stop being disingenuous.

And as for your first point there. honestly it holds some water but it's just bloody minded. It's  like saying that because you are saying bonjour you aren't really saying hello anymore. It all depends on your definitions. And planting your feet on an issue like that is just ..  well .. stupid. And hey you don't wanna be insulted? then don't insult my intelligence by making me explain what anyone should be able to infer.

Hey I tell you what. Don't insult my intelligence by claiming one thing then backpedalling when you paint yourself into a corner.

[The Angry One]

Cheviot wrote...

The Catalyst says that as organics become more dependent on synthetics, when they need them to do more, they will eventually design them so they can suppass organics, and this will make them suspicious of them, leading to synthetic rebellion.  The Quarian reaction to the Geth supports this.  The memories in the Geth Consensus suggest how this rebellion may start.

The Zha need the AI to help them as their homeworld becomes inhospitable.  As it becomes more inhospitable, the likelihood increases that they'll give the AI more power and abilities to help them.  When this happens, the likelihood of rebellion increases.

That is the basis for my argument.  You may disagree with my reasoning, but I think it holds up better than, say, an argument based on reductio ad absurdum.

They are co-existing. You do not know much more of the Zha'til than that. You are making assumptions and taking the Catalyst's predicitions as fact, resulting in an appeal to probability.

The Quarian's reaction to the Geth is but one event out of billions, and even then the Geth did not rebel. The Quarians attacked them first. That is not rebellion.

[Krunjar]

The Angry One wrote...

Krunjar wrote...

Never said DNA wasn't being altered. It was you that first scanned through my post not properly reading it. And decided that I was claiming that.

You were claiming that somehow DNA alteration does not relate to synthesis. Do me a favour and stop being disingenuous.

And as for your first point there. honestly it holds some water but it's just bloody minded. It's  like saying that because you are saying bonjour you aren't really saying hello anymore. It all depends on your definitions. And planting your feet on an issue like that is just ..  well .. stupid. And hey you don't wanna be insulted? then don't insult my intelligence by making me explain what anyone should be able to infer.

Hey I tell you what. Don't insult my intelligence by claiming one thing then backpedalling when you paint yourself into a corner.

Yes that's right DNA alteration isn't always synthesis. You have the nerve to bring this up and then accuse me of backpedelling. Which I  never did. This is a monumental waste of my time.

[What a Succulent Ass]

From what I can see, Krun, you made a colossal mistake by misinterpreting what was being commented on to begin with. No one was likening the Zha'til/synthetic mutant monsters to synthesis. What was being compared was the symbiotic relationship between the Zha and Zha'til.

[Krunjar]

Nah I addressed that early on in this little "exchange" by stating that a "child of synthesis" would have no need to have an AI implanted or to be symbiotic to it. It would already have the full capabilities that a synthetic symbiote could give it. The mere existance of the implantation of another entity implies the creation of something other than synthesis as seen in the ending. The Angry One interestingly decided to leave that assertion alone. I naturally argued that what happened after the reapers arrived wasn't synthesis because this was the part of my response that he chose to criticise. Besides he mentioned DNA alteration which is only stated to have happened after the reapers took control.

Thanks for trying to be considerate though. Not gone unnoticed.

Modifié par Krunjar, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:52 .