235 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Goose]

So Zha was species which achieved synthesis on their own - they did it from need but it worked, with arrival Reaper simply turn them into another freakshow. There is only three explanations:

It's not exactly synthesis. Zha'Til were simply heavily augmented, not fundamentally changed.

The Catalyst believes that eventually every synthetic life form would eventually come to conclusion that it had to fight against their creators. I'm not saying that he was correct, but it was his premise.

So, basically, even if it was period of peace, new war in the future was inevitable according to Catalyst.

[Krunjar]

Double Post

Modifié par Krunjar, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:46 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

That's not much of a point, though I get what you mean. To borrow Nietzche's words and mangle them beyond all intent: what is horrific great about synthesis is that it is a bridge and not an end. The entire synthesis end game is to prevent synthetic/organic conflict. To this end, all beings in the galaxy are modified to engender symbiosis on a macro scale.

The Zha arrangement is conceptually identical. If Zha and Zha'til were joined in a single body for a singular purpose, that is a singularity (RULE OF THREE EVERYONE, SORRY). More than that, since the nature of the relationship was, in fact, symbiotic (and from what we can tell, the Zha'til integrated with Zha brains), it is safe to say that they "understood one another." So they not only managed physical augmentation, cognitive augmentation, and peaceful coexistence, but managed to do it without the body horror too. Whether they were born that way is entirely irrelevant.

...Ergo, the Catalyst trolling them makes no bloody sense.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:50 .

[Vigilant111]

@nobody: can't you see what the problem is? that the Catalyst was supposed to solve a problem, yet all it did was to make organics' worse nightmares come true, wouldn't you say that the Catalyst has only just as much intelligence as an organic or worse?

[Mazebook]

Random Jerkface wrote...

That's not much of a point. To borrow Nietzche's words and mangle them beyond all intent: what is horrific about synthesis is that it is a bridge and not an end. The entire synthesis end game is to prevent synthetic/organic conflict. To this end, all beings in the galaxy are modified--symbiosis on a macro scale.

The Zha arrangement is conceptually identical. If Zha and Zha'til were joined in a single body for a singular purpose, that is a singularity (RULE OF THREE EVERYONE, SORRY). More than that, since the nature of the relationship was, in fact, symbiotic (and from what we can tell, the Zha'til integrated with Zha brains), it is safe to say that they "understood one another." So they not only managed physical augmentation, cognitive augmentation, and peaceful coexistence, but managed to do it without the body horror too. Whether they were born that way is entirely irrelevant.

...Ergo, the Catalyst trolling them makes no bloody sense.

No it is not conceptually identical!

read again my responses...symbiotic and synthesis are complettly different things...

There is nothing save to say about the realationship between the Zha´til and the Zha...we don´t know enough.

There could be cases where the A.I. took control of the body and the other Zah´til had to shut the body down.
there is no evidence that the symbiotic relationship was peaceful and without danger.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Yo, I would not say that at all.

The Catalyst has the intelligence of a Commodore 64.

[Krunjar]

I can see the point you are trying to make but I disagree. I think that to a degree we can't fall back on classical philosophy here because many of these people died long before science fiction even theorized about the kind of technology that exists today. And the kind of possibilities it has. I define a person as a single consciousness. And two consciousness's no matter how deeply enmeshed are still two to me. I can definateley see how you find it to be "conceptually identical" In fact I agree with this assessment 100%. Synthesis was definately what the Zha had in mind when they started this whole shebang. I just argue that conceptually identical and actually identical are different in this case. Probably because the Zha didn't even consider the concept of actual synthesis as seen in the ending.

[Cheviot]

The Angry One wrote...
They are co-existing. You do not know much more of the Zha'til than that. You are making assumptions and taking the Catalyst's predicitions as fact, resulting in an appeal to probability.

So are you.  You're equating synthesis and symbiosis as the same thing with little basis.  In fact, your appeal to probability is greater because it ignores what the actual work tells us about the situation, for instance:

The Quarian's reaction to the Geth is but one event out of billions . . .

The Prothean VI tells Shepard that the same conflicts and evolutions happen in each Cycle, expressed in different ways.  This supports the Catalyst's claim that conflict between synthetic and organic is inevitable. 

...and even then the Geth did not rebel. The Quarians attacked them first. That is not rebellion.

Why did the Quarians attack?  Because the Geth wouldn't switch themselves off.  Watch the 2nd memory in the Geth Consensus.  That platform is basically begging for it's life; to it, powering off is the same as death.  That's when the synthetic rebellion starts: when synthetics become intelligent enough to value their existence and powerful enough to make the creators feel threatened.

Modifié par Cheviot, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:04 .

[Mazebook]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Yo, I would not say that at all.

The Catalyst has the intelligence of a Commodore 64.

LOAD "solution",8^_^

Modifié par maaaze, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:01 .

[The Eruptionist]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Zha'til 
The zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable. When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely.


So Zha was species which achieved synthesis on their own - they did it from need but it worked, with arrival Reaper simply turn them into another freakshow. There is only three explanations:

- Catalyst never looked for solution

- Catalyst never allowed to anyone achieve synthesis without his GOD permision 

- Catalyst never existed

... teeheee I am looking forward to your explanations ...

For whatever reason; the Catalyst thought that what the Zha had accomplished was not 'true synthesis' according to what it required for the technological singularity to stop. Since synthesis is so vague as to what it actually does we have to assume that whatever it does in fact do will stop the technological singularity (according to the Catalyst). It simply did not believe that the Zha had accomplished this so it killed them.

Just because the Zha joined with synthetic AI doesn't mean they achieved the Catalyst's conception of synthesis as described in the ending. They achieved a type of synthesis but not the synthesis required by the Catalyst. The two instances must be different.

Just as a disclaimer: I do not believe in the technological singularity.

*edit*: as per usual Maaaze is correct.

Modifié par The Eruptionist, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:07 .

[elitehunter34]

The Eruptionist wrote...
For whatever reason; the Catalyst thought that what the Zha had accomplished was not 'true synthesis' according to what it required for the technological singularity to stop. Since synthesis is so vague as to what it actually does we have to assume that whatever it does in fact do will stop the technological singularity (according to the Catalyst). It simply did not believe that the Zha had accomplished this so it killed them.

Just because the Zha joined with synthetic AI doesn't mean they achieved the Catalyst's conception of synthesis as described in the ending. They achieved a type of synthesis but not the synthesis required by the Catalyst. The two instances must be different.

Just as a disclaimer: I do not believe in the technological singularity.

*edit*: as per usual Maaaze is correct.

So you're reason is that the Catalyst didn't think it was enough.  Really?  Does that really satisfy you? 

Look, I think the point that I am trying to make is that the synthesis that the Zha essentially accomplished the Catalyst's goals, it was peaceful coexistance of organics and synthetics.  There is no good reason why the Catalyst didn't see why it was enough.

Why does the Catalyst see Syntheisis in the end of the game as sufficient?  There is absolutely nothing to stop the new hybrids from making new Synthetics that will try to kill all organics.  The risk would still be there.  In fact it could be greater.  Organics are now hybrids, so the synthetics might be able to directly interface with the hybrid organics' mind and take it over.

The only 100% way to permantly stop synthetics from existing would be to wipe out all organics before they can create technology advanced enough to make AI.  Which is their Reaper solution.  Even then, they would have to destroy ever single advanced organic race in existance.  A feat that is essentially impossible given the size of the universe.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:17 .

[Applepie_Svk]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Look, I think the point that I am trying to make is that the synthesis that the Zha essentially accomplished the Catalyst's goals, it was peaceful coexistance of organics and synthetics.  There is no good reason why the Catalyst didn't see why it was enough.

Why does the Catalyst see Syntheisis in the end of the game as sufficient?  There is absolutely nothing to stop the new hybrids from making new Synthetics that will try to kill all organics.  The risk would still be there.  In fact it could be greater.  Organics are now hybrids, so the synthetics might be able to directly interface with the hybrid organics' mind and take it over.

+100 reputation 

[Cheviot]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Why does the Catalyst see Syntheisis in the end of the game as sufficient?  There is absolutely nothing to stop the new hybrids from making new Synthetics that will try to kill all organics.  The risk would still be there.  In fact it could be greater.  Organics are now hybrids, so the synthetics might be able to directly interface with the hybrid organics' mind and take it over.

There may be nothing to stop them, but there's nothing to compel them to either; the synthesis would give organics abilities that they would have previously needed synthetic creations to achieve.  In one ending, there would still be a huge population of friendly synthetics who could do most of the things that new Synthetics would be needed for. And even if they did create new forms, their new status as part-synthetic would mean they would have common ground with any new Synthetics, wouldn't see them as completely different, which was the problem before, and so the conflict couldn't arise again.

Modifié par Cheviot, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:29 .

[The Eruptionist]

elitehunter34 wrote...

So you're reason is that the Catalyst didn't think it was enough.  Really?  Does that really satisfy you? 

Look, I think the point that I am trying to make is that the synthesis that the Zha essentially accomplished the Catalyst's goals, it was peaceful coexistance of organics and synthetics.  There is no good reason why the Catalyst didn't see why it was enough.

Why does the Catalyst see Syntheisis in the end of the game as sufficient?  There is absolutely nothing to stop the new hybrids from making new Synthetics that will try to kill all organics.  The risk would still be there.  In fact it could be greater.  Organics are now hybrids, so the synthetics might be able to directly interface with the hybrid organics' mind and take it over.

The only 100% way to permantly stop synthetics from existing would be to wipe out all organics before they can create technology advanced enough to make AI.  Which is their Reaper solution.  Even then, they would have to destroy ever single advanced organic race in existance.  A feat that is essentially impossible given the size of the universe.

Yes the Catalyst obviously found that what the Zha had achieved would not end the technological singularity.   It really only matters what the Catalyst thought and it judged that the Zha didn't find a solution to the singularity problem. If it thought that they had discovered it then it wouldn't have killed them. Simple as that.

You're claiming that what the Zha accomplished is exactly the same as what the Catalyst wanted to achieve with synthesis when you lack the proof to claim that the two cases are conceptually identical. Just because it sounds a little bit similar doesn't mean its the same.

The OP's argument is basically this:

A dog is furry, has, four legs, and two eyes therefore anything that shares these characteristics is a dog and is, for all intents and purposes, the same. 

We simply don't understand enough about synthesis or what the Zha achieved in order to say that they're exactly the same or even remotely similar in any conceptual sense for that matter. You say that what the Zha did was peaceful coexistence but there is no proof for that claim either.

[Baronesa]

An again you bring the Technological singularity and only looking at it from the Catalyst perspective.

It is an unknown

there are at least 3 outcomes.

1.- synthetics will destroy organics
2.- synthetics will ignore organics
3.- synthetics will cooperate with organics

Why the hell everyone buys the first and dismiss the other 2 is beyond me. I rather risk it and see what happens.

The understanding of the singularity that the Catalyst has is very similar to Pascal's Wager... ignoring all the other variables.

[The Eruptionist]

Baronesa wrote...

An again you bring the Technological singularity and only looking at it from the Catalyst perspective.

It is an unknown

there are at least 3 outcomes.

1.- synthetics will destroy organics
2.- synthetics will ignore organics
3.- synthetics will cooperate with organics

Why the hell everyone buys the first and dismiss the other 2 is beyond me. I rather risk it and see what happens.

The understanding of the singularity that the Catalyst has is very similar to Pascal's Wager... ignoring all the other variables.

The singularity is not a valid argument at all. Especially since you cannot predict or explain without massive speculation as to why the synthetics would always fight organics.

Ultimately it is beside the point since the Catalyst's claim is not meant to be taken as correct. It is an AI that was created with a purpose and that was to fix the conflict that had developed between its creators and the AI that they were at war with. The Catalyst went rogue and against its creator's wishes turned them into a Reaper. The Catalyst is acting contrary to its original purpose most likely due to the limitations that were inadvertently built into it. The Catalyst is a mistake and is attempting to solve an issue that doesn't exist in the first place due to its original faulty programming. The technological singularity is not a real issue since the AI is essentially broken in the first place.

Modifié par The Eruptionist, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:50 .

[elitehunter34]

Cheviot wrote...
There may be nothing to stop them, but there's nothing to compel them to either; the synthesis would give organics abilities that they would have previously needed synthetic creations to achieve.  In one ending, there would still be a huge population of friendly synthetics who could do most of the things that new Synthetics would be needed for. And even if they did create new forms, their new status as part-synthetic would mean they would have common ground with any new Synthetics, wouldn't see them as completely different, which was the problem before, and so the conflict couldn't arise again.

If you are saying that Synthesis would make it impossible for post-Synthesis synthetics to cause conflict then you are flat out wrong.  Nothing in Synthesis would make it impossible, and it is something that is logically impossible to achieve.  You would need 100% mind control that never fails to prevent any kind of conflict.  Synthesis isn't that.

[elitehunter34]

The Eruptionist wrote...
Yes the Catalyst obviously found that what the Zha had achieved would not end the technological singularity.   It really only matters what the Catalyst thought and it judged that the Zha didn't find a solution to the singularity problem. If it thought that they had discovered it then it wouldn't have killed them. Simple as that.

You're claiming that what the Zha accomplished is exactly the same as what the Catalyst wanted to achieve with synthesis when you lack the proof to claim that the two cases are conceptually identical. Just because it sounds a little bit similar doesn't mean its the same.

The OP's argument is basically this:

A dog is furry, has, four legs, and two eyes therefore anything that shares these characteristics is a dog and is, for all intents and purposes, the same. 

We simply don't understand enough about synthesis or what the Zha achieved in order to say that they're exactly the same or even remotely similar in any conceptual sense for that matter. You say that what the Zha did was peaceful coexistence but there is no proof for that claim either.

No, I'm not arguing that it is the same.  I'm arguing that it is similar enough that there is no good reason why the Catalyst sees the Zha's version of Synthesis yet the one in the end of the game is somehow sufficent. 

In both versions of Synthesis, there is still the possibility that Synthetics can be created.  So it makes no sense why the Catalyst would want either solution because the Catalyst believes Synthetics will always eventually rebel.

[Shaigunjoe]

Baronesa wrote...

An again you bring the Technological singularity and only looking at it from the Catalyst perspective.

It is an unknown

there are at least 3 outcomes.

1.- synthetics will destroy organics
2.- synthetics will ignore organics
3.- synthetics will cooperate with organics

Why the hell everyone buys the first and dismiss the other 2 is beyond me. I rather risk it and see what happens.

The understanding of the singularity that the Catalyst has is very similar to Pascal's Wager... ignoring all the other variables.

I would imagine its just for story telling.  Most non fiction has speculation on 1 and 3, though I don't think I've read much on number 2 at all, I feel like thats the least likely anyway.

[The Eruptionist]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Cheviot wrote...
There may be nothing to stop them, but there's nothing to compel them to either; the synthesis would give organics abilities that they would have previously needed synthetic creations to achieve.  In one ending, there would still be a huge population of friendly synthetics who could do most of the things that new Synthetics would be needed for. And even if they did create new forms, their new status as part-synthetic would mean they would have common ground with any new Synthetics, wouldn't see them as completely different, which was the problem before, and so the conflict couldn't arise again.

If you are saying that Synthesis would make it impossible for post-Synthesis synthetics to cause conflict then you are flat out wrong.  Nothing in Synthesis would make it impossible, and it is something that is logically impossible to achieve.  You would need 100% mind control that never fails to prevent any kind of conflict.  Synthesis isn't that.

Technically it does kind of solve the issue as far as the Catalyst is concerned. Its goal is to stop synthetics from killing all organics. If you take that as literally as possible then what better way to fix the problem than remove synthetics altogether? By combining synthetics and organics you have a hybrid and the pure form synthetics will cease to exist. If the Catalyst manages to remove all possibility of pure synethic life ever occuring then it has found a loop hole in order to achieve its goal. If all synthetics have been been turned into synthetic-organics then it has technically removed synthetics from the picture and solved the literal interpretation of its goal that was to "stop synthetics from killing all organics'. Synthetics can't kill all organics if the term 'synthetic' can longer be applied to anything.

I would assume that synthesis makes it so that any future AI synthetic somehow becomes imbued with organic dna or however the Catalyst described it. Does this include cellphones and laptops i.e. things that aren't sentient? I don't know since the entire concept is so vague. I have no idea how this would happen though but that doesn't mean that the Catalyst doesn't think it isn't possible.

Modifié par The Eruptionist, 16 juillet 2012 - 01:15 .

[The Night Mammoth]

maaaze wrote...

There could be cases where the A.I. took control of the body and the other Zah´til had to shut the body down.
there is no evidence that the symbiotic relationship was peaceful and without danger.

There's no evidence to suggest anything else but a peaceful coexistence. 

[The Eruptionist]

elitehunter34 wrote...

The Eruptionist wrote...
Yes the Catalyst obviously found that what the Zha had achieved would not end the technological singularity.   It really only matters what the Catalyst thought and it judged that the Zha didn't find a solution to the singularity problem. If it thought that they had discovered it then it wouldn't have killed them. Simple as that.

You're claiming that what the Zha accomplished is exactly the same as what the Catalyst wanted to achieve with synthesis when you lack the proof to claim that the two cases are conceptually identical. Just because it sounds a little bit similar doesn't mean its the same.

The OP's argument is basically this:

A dog is furry, has, four legs, and two eyes therefore anything that shares these characteristics is a dog and is, for all intents and purposes, the same. 

We simply don't understand enough about synthesis or what the Zha achieved in order to say that they're exactly the same or even remotely similar in any conceptual sense for that matter. You say that what the Zha did was peaceful coexistence but there is no proof for that claim either.

No, I'm not arguing that it is the same.  I'm arguing that it is similar enough that there is no good reason why the Catalyst sees the Zha's version of Synthesis yet the one in the end of the game is somehow sufficent. 

In both versions of Synthesis, there is still the possibility that Synthetics can be created.  So it makes no sense why the Catalyst would want either solution because the Catalyst believes Synthetics will always eventually rebel.

Okay, sure a dog is similar to a cat in some ways but they are fundamentally different if you have the knowledge to differentiate between the two. If you don't have the information to differentiate between the two then their differences (from your perspective) decrease and they become more similar. My point being that we have an extremely limited understanding of what the Zha did and what synthesis is. This lack of knowledge means that we can't form any meaningful opinion on how similar or different they actually are. You can assume that a cat is a dog if you want but that opinion is based on a lack of information rather than a real understanding of what a dog actually is. You don't know what the Zha did and you don't know what synthesis is so you're comparing apples and oranges as far as you know.

Sorry for the incredibly rough analogies lol but its 1am over here and I got work tomorrow. I'm out.

[The Eruptionist]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

maaaze wrote...

There could be cases where the A.I. took control of the body and the other Zah´til had to shut the body down.
there is no evidence that the symbiotic relationship was peaceful and without danger.

There's no evidence to suggest anything else but a peaceful coexistence. 

There's no information to suggest either co-existence or conflict. Why would you assume it was peaceful? Based on what information?

[elitehunter34]

The Eruptionist wrote...
Technically it does kind of solve the isse as far as the Catalyst is concerned. Its goal is to stop synthetics from killing all organics. If you take that as literally as possible then what better way to fix the problem than remove synthetics altogether? By combining synthetics and organics you have a hybrid and the pure form synthetics will cease to exist. If the Catalyst manages to remove all possibility of pure synethic life ever occuring then it has found a loop hole in order to achieve its goal. If all synthetics have been been turned into synthetic-organics then it has technically removed synthetics from the picture and solved the literal interpretation of its goal that was to "stop synthetics from killing all organics'. Synthetics can't kill all organics if the term 'synthetic' can longer be applied to anything.

I would assume that synthesis makes it so that any future AI synthetic somehow becomes imbued with organic dna or however the Catalyst described it. Does this include cellphones and laptops i.e. things that aren't sentient? I don't know since the entire concept is so vague. I have no idea how this would happen though but that doesn't mean that the Catalyst doesn't think it isn't possible.

Yes, but these future synthetics that can be created might want to kill organics, and like I said earlier, being a part of this new network might make it even easier to wage conflict against organics because they could presumably see organics thoughts, or maybe even find a way to control them altogether.

Until I get a concrete and logical reason as to why the Catalyst accepts the Crucible induced Synthesis and not the Zha's synthesis, then I will continue to say that there is no good reason why the Catalyst accepts one over the other.  As of right now the only concrete reason we have is "The Catalyst didn't think it was good enough"  The rest is just speculation.

[MetioricTest]

Considering how little the Catalyst tells us about Synthesis we have to just assume it's different