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[Taboo]

devSin wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Not sure if serious...

You know I am.

The scene is garbage. It's senseless and ineffective. You can probably fill an entire day listing all the ways to poke holes in this tripe.

I've been asked by this game to believe some pretty dumb things; asking me to believe that carcass somewhere in limbo is going to magically live again is just too much.

They failed to do their job, twice now, if that's even what they intended. (And as I've argued in the past, I don't think it's what they intended at all—the scene is a throwaway gesture, devoid of meaning or intent.)

I would suggest watching or reading anything with a narrative that is over twenty years old.

This has been done countless times and people always use the exact same response. Everytime.

If it doesn't work for you, even when the creators have stated the obvious stop grousing about it.

I would have done it differently, but I can't change it so I have to go with the information that is supplied, suggested and inferred.

[ddraigcoch123]

[quote]sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I've got another head canon. Want to know it?

It's just before the Cronos mission. Liara comes up to Shepard's cabin the two of them relax on the bed. Liara looks up at the stars.

Liara: You know Shepard, one ship could really get lost out there, find a world off the grid, settle down.

[I turn off my console.]

Shepard: I think we need a shower. (motions)
Liara: Yes, that sounds nice.
Shepard: (turns on music system loud, then turns on shower, Liara starts to disrobe, Shepard shakes head no) Do you know of any?
Liara: (looks puzzled) What?
Shepard: Worlds off the grid? Kind that would be overlooked even by the reapers.

OUTSTANDING.... YOU NEED TO WRITE THE NEXT BOOK IN THE ME SERIES LMAO....(can you make mine a femshep pleeez...)

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I would suggest watching or reading anything with a narrative that is over twenty years old.

This has been done countless times and people always use the exact same response. Everytime.

If it doesn't work for you, even when the creators have stated the obvious stop grousing about it.

I would have done it differently, but I can't change it so I have to go with the information that is supplied, suggested and inferred.

"I'm happy so STFU" 

It doesn't just "not work" for one person, it doesnt' work for a lot of people, and never did.  Even if this is some time-honored tradition of headgames at the end of a trilogy, it was still done badly, and they didn't life a finger to improve it in EC.

[Reorte]

Pitznik wrote...

Reorte wrote...

For the record, what I would've found satisfying - remove the breath scene and replace the Stargazer (so it's post credits) with a hand pulling Shepard out of the rubble (not necessarily a cewmember's hand, that wouldn't make sense), and with Shepard looking alive enough to very definitely not be dead. I'd have still liked an actual reunion but I think this would've been enough for me.

That surprises me. The scene we have and the scene you described have exactly the same meaning, one is just more subtle and more dramatic.

One is ambiguous, no matter how much you might like to pretend otherwise. What we had isn't dramatic and subtle is not a synonym for ambiguous. My reaction after first playing? "Well, looks like Shepard is alive but I can't be sure." It is a cliffhanger presentation. I also think that post-credits would be better timing.

[devSin]

ME3 does not have a narrative that is over 20 years old.

You may be impressed with their cinematic technique, but I'm not. If they wanted me to buy into their illusion, then they needed to at least make it plausible.

That's all I've ever asked for. Put something there that actually supports it.

Instead, we get nothing. They had the chance to fix it, and they chose not to.

[RiouHotaru]

Easiest way to solve this:

If you think your Shepard would live? They live.

If you think your Shepard is dead? They're dead.

Problem solved.

[Pitznik]

The Twilight God wrote...

Yeah, Shepard alive at that moment. He COULD be dead 5 secs later. Nothiing in your game tells you what ultimately became of Shepard. This is how Bioware treats a hero of 3 games beloved by millions. It's disgusting. 

After reunion ending he can be hit by a car. Doesn't matter what could be, the only real ultimate fate of Shepard can be death, because as long as he lives, he can still die... As long as the game goes, the ultimate fate of Shepard in high EMS ending is being alive, under a pile of rubble. Worse than being alive in bed, better than not being alive. The most important information was still presented - he is alive, even if mere seconds before you thought he's not. Story ends on an upbeat.

[Taboo]

devSin wrote...

ME3 does not have a narrative that is over 20 years old.

You may be impressed with their cinematic technique, but I'm not. If they wanted me to buy into their illusion, then they needed to at least make it plausible.

That's all I've ever asked for. Put something there that actually supports it.

Instead, we get nothing. They had the chance to fix it, and they chose not to.

Mass Effect has a narrative that is thousands of years old. Storytelling techniques have not changed in a long, long time.

In fact the only thing how it has changed is how it is told.

The information you need is already there but it requires participation from you, which is not very common in today's world.

[Reorte]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I would suggest watching or reading anything with a narrative that is over twenty years old.

This has been done countless times and people always use the exact same response. Everytime.

If it doesn't work for you, even when the creators have stated the obvious stop grousing about it.

I would have done it differently, but I can't change it so I have to go with the information that is supplied, suggested and inferred.

Just because something has been done a lot in the past doesn't mean it's any better there. It's a cliffhanger, like it or not. Suggested and inferred is what we've got, much more than supplied. It leaves that unwelcome doubt in the back of the mind - that it why it doesn't work for me. The time it matters the most is the first playthrough, before I've read Twitter posts and rummaged around within the game files.

[Pitznik]

Reorte wrote...


One is ambiguous, no matter how much you might like to pretend otherwise. What we had isn't dramatic and subtle is not a synonym for ambiguous. My reaction after first playing? "Well, looks like Shepard is alive but I can't be sure." It is a cliffhanger presentation. I also think that post-credits would be better timing.

You can't be sure if he's alive even if you heard him breathe?

[Taboo]

Reorte wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I would suggest watching or reading anything with a narrative that is over twenty years old.

This has been done countless times and people always use the exact same response. Everytime.

If it doesn't work for you, even when the creators have stated the obvious stop grousing about it.

I would have done it differently, but I can't change it so I have to go with the information that is supplied, suggested and inferred.

Just because something has been done a lot in the past doesn't mean it's any better there. It's a cliffhanger, like it or not. Suggested and inferred is what we've got, much more than supplied. It leaves that unwelcome doubt in the back of the mind - that it why it doesn't work for me. The time it matters the most is the first playthrough, before I've read Twitter posts and rummaged around within the game files.

But trick here is that Bioware wanted you to...think about the ending.

To be a participant...

[Reorte]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The information you need is already there but it requires participation from you, which is not very common in today's world.

You keep insisting on that but it's simply not true unless you count using old cliches, metagaming, Twitter posts, and filenames as proper evidence for what's going on in-game. Even then in only adds up to "Very likely", or even "almost certain". You simply cannot be certain.

[Hurbster]

Putting a cliffhanger ending in the last game in a series is beyond stupid.

[Reorte]

Pitznik wrote...

Reorte wrote...


One is ambiguous, no matter how much you might like to pretend otherwise. What we had isn't dramatic and subtle is not a synonym for ambiguous. My reaction after first playing? "Well, looks like Shepard is alive but I can't be sure." It is a cliffhanger presentation. I also think that post-credits would be better timing.

You can't be sure if he's alive even if you heard him breathe?

For beyond that second? No.

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I would suggest watching or reading anything with a narrative that is over twenty years old.

This has been done countless times and people always use the exact same response. Everytime.

If it doesn't work for you, even when the creators have stated the obvious stop grousing about it.

I would have done it differently, but I can't change it so I have to go with the information that is supplied, suggested and inferred.

Just because something has been done a lot in the past doesn't mean it's any better there. It's a cliffhanger, like it or not. Suggested and inferred is what we've got, much more than supplied. It leaves that unwelcome doubt in the back of the mind - that it why it doesn't work for me. The time it matters the most is the first playthrough, before I've read Twitter posts and rummaged around within the game files.

But trick here is that Bioware wanted you to...think about the ending.

To be a participant...

And they didn't want us to participate when Shepard got dissolved in the green space magic?
Or electrocuted?
Or walk into an explosion?
Or just plain give up?

How much "participation" was required there?  Why are the Shepard lives crowd the only ones who have to write fanfiction to get their ending?

[Reorte]

Taboo-XX wrote...

But trick here is that Bioware wanted you to...think about the ending.

To be a participant...

No - if you buy what they claim they wanted you to stop being a participant and take over entirely yourself. They wanted to stop participating. Having a conversation with someone is much more satisfying than talking to yourself, don't you think?

Modifié par Reorte, 17 juillet 2012 - 12:05 .

[Taboo]

Reorte wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

But trick here is that Bioware wanted you to...think about the ending.

To be a participant...

No - if you buy what they claim they wanted you to stop being a participant and take over entirely yourself. They wanted to stop participating.

Art is a participatory medium. 

You're supposed to take over certain parts.

That's what art is.

[devSin]

I don't know of any clearer way to say it.

OK, here. I can't paint worth anything. But I am aware of some classical techniques.

So if I paint the worst painting in the world, are you really going to tell somebody who calls me out on the crap that I painted to go study the classics?

WE GET IT. WE KNOW WHAT THEY WANTED.

They failed to do the things they needed to be able to elicit that response.

[Pitznik]

Reorte wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Reorte wrote...


One is ambiguous, no matter how much you might like to pretend otherwise. What we had isn't dramatic and subtle is not a synonym for ambiguous. My reaction after first playing? "Well, looks like Shepard is alive but I can't be sure." It is a cliffhanger presentation. I also think that post-credits would be better timing.

You can't be sure if he's alive even if you heard him breathe?

For beyond that second? No.

There is no "beyond that second", game ends. The rest is headcanon, or like in my case, there is simply nothing else, story ends.

[Taboo]

iakus wrote...

And they didn't want us to participate when Shepard got dissolved in the green space magic?
Or electrocuted?
Or walk into an explosion?
Or just plain give up?

How much "participation" was required there?  Why are the Shepard lives crowd the only ones who have to write fanfiction to get their ending?

Have you been paying attention to any of the other threads at all?

Everyone else is doing this. Especially the Synthesis people.

[Reorte]

Pitznik wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Reorte wrote...


One is ambiguous, no matter how much you might like to pretend otherwise. What we had isn't dramatic and subtle is not a synonym for ambiguous. My reaction after first playing? "Well, looks like Shepard is alive but I can't be sure." It is a cliffhanger presentation. I also think that post-credits would be better timing.

You can't be sure if he's alive even if you heard him breathe?

For beyond that second? No.

There is no "beyond that second", game ends. The rest is headcanon, or like in my case, there is simply nothing else, story ends.

There's the Stargazer, but that's just being pedantic.

Game ends, what we're told ends but it's ending before the story is quite complete. Why not end it at the second you pick a colour?

[Pitznik]

iakus wrote...


And they didn't want us to participate when Shepard got dissolved in the green space magic?
Or electrocuted?
Or walk into an explosion?
Or just plain give up?

How much "participation" was required there?  Why are the Shepard lives crowd the only ones who have to write fanfiction to get their ending?

Because we're special. Our Shepards keep on living the normal life, so our endings are all different from each other.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Twilight God wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I do have a really difficult question.

Why is it so difficult to end a story with the hero alive, and still take a hard line on ending their story arc? Bethesda: 600 hrs with the Nerevarine. Goodbye. 600 hrs with the Hero of Cyrodill. Goodbye Sheogorath. They did it.

Was it that hard for the writers to have made one fracking commitment in this series for a single scene at the end where instead of that stupid idiotic breath scene they had Shepard in the hospital recovering being visited by the LI if there was one (sitting in a chair)? (High EMS Destroy) Yes I know no one would pick either Control or Synthesis then.

Incorrect. If synthesis and control were presented ina way that made sense (i.e. I wasn't just blindly accepting the word of a reaper that it would work) I would pick control or synthesis with certain shepards. As it stands now they are just absurdly stupid choices that defy all common sense. Hey, Shepard, go kill yourself and you'll save the galaxy. Derp OK. sure thing reapers.

They threw the Geth and EDI on the Destroy ending. We'd kill them to get this, and BW wouldn't allow us to do that -- purposely "murder innocent robots" (EDI is different), and they wouldn't remove the penalty for picking destroy because that would have required them to do a better job of selling Synthesis and Control. Oh, wait. Silly me, they couldn't. It's hard to sell death by electrocution, and death by swan dive into a death ray.

Destroy offers NOTHING over synthesis and control. They are currently the better endings in EVERY way. Destroy does not have a single benefit over the other two. A breath is nothing. Shep might as well be dead as the player gets no tangible payoff to supposedly surviving. Sorry, but the breath scene isn't the same as knowing Shep survived and reuniting with crew. It's the same as if he was incinerated. I can headcanon shepard returning in Control and Synthesis endings.

The reason they did the EC was they saw this: NO DLC SALES.

They aren't getting any DLC or full game sales from me. I'm done with them.  I'm tired of supporting some "art store" where "artist" experiment with "interpretive art" on my dime. They can be poor like real artists who care more about what they want to express than what a prospective customer wants.

Sorry but you misread my paragraph. If they had replaced the breath scene with a scene that showed Shepard alive in the hospital with his/her LI visiting or reading if no LI in the EC, no one would ever pick Control or Synthesis. Why? Closure.

They just couldn't bring themselves to make one single commitment about the scene that doesn't work -- the breath scene.

[The Twilight God]

Pitznik wrote...

After reunion ending he can be hit by a car. Doesn't matter what could be, the only real ultimate fate of Shepard can be death, because as long as he lives, he can still die... As long as the game goes, the ultimate fate of Shepard in high EMS ending is being alive, under a pile of rubble. Worse than being alive in bed, better than not being alive. The most important information was still presented - he is alive, even if mere seconds before you thought he's not. Story ends on an upbeat.

Maybe being the the space faring equivalent of the dark ages, killing the geth and your friend EDI, and have your crew stranded (2 of them starving to death) is a good ending to you, but not me. Especially when you can have a utopia or reaper body guards and nobody has to suffer. Destroy is a terrible ending.

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

iakus wrote...

And they didn't want us to participate when Shepard got dissolved in the green space magic?
Or electrocuted?
Or walk into an explosion?
Or just plain give up?

How much "participation" was required there?  Why are the Shepard lives crowd the only ones who have to write fanfiction to get their ending?

Have you been paying attention to any of the other threads at all?

Everyone else is doing this. Especially the Synthesis people.

The Synthesis crowd is headcanoning Shepard surviving?