760 réponses à ce sujet

[wantedman dan]

In all seriousness, folks, this reeks of something foul. If they truly intended to offer the player hope, they wouldn't have offered such miserable endings with only one offering only a modicum of such.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:24 .

[The Twilight God]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Which ending did you ****ing watch?

The one where the relays are fubar, the Earth has no infrastructure, the Normandy crew is stranded in some unknown star cluster and the last thing I see is the hero in a pile of rubble in a galaxy where nobody understands how relays work, much less how to fix them.

Then I'm shown slides about what will come to pass in the future. That at some point they get it together and rebuild the relay network sometime in the distant future. Granted, the hero and his friends probably don't live to see it.

Oh, and some parts that contradict others.

Which one did you see?

Pitznik wrote...

What "established lore" are you talking about?

Mass Relays are mass transit devices scattered throughout the galaxy, usually located within star systems. They form an enormous network allowing interstellar travel. Hailed as one of the greatest achievements of the extinct Protheans, a mass relay can transport starships instantaneously to another relay within the network, allowing for journeys that would otherwise take years or even decades with only FTL drives.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:52 .

[The Twilight God]

Baa Baa wrote...

BioWare stated that there would be no dark ages, or people starving to death (at least if you have good EMS). And the EC implies that the relays will be fixed in a few years. But if you look at it from a nihilistic point of view, something will probably go wrong, and the relays may not be fixed for hundreds of years, possibly resulting in the deaths of billions due to starvation. And rational conclusions are apparently irrevelent in ME3. I thought it would be perfectly reasonable to think Synthesis should result in riots and mass suicides (much like how the purists view augmentations in Deus Ex HR) but no... everyone is happy and even Javik hasn't looked for a noose yet. And Control totally goes against everything Shepard has fought for, but ok.

Bioware forfeited the right to make any canon claims when they didn't bother to write an ending that can support those claims. Their narative inconsistencies invalidate any wild claims they spew. You don't have to agree with me. Live in your own fantasy land where Mass Relay technology is taught in trade schools and and FTL is adequate for long distance travel throughout the galaxy.

I understand this is unpopular, but it is what it is. Again, make up your own fairy tale ending if that makes you feel better. I'll stick to the lore. Not Bioware handwaving.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 17 juillet 2012 - 02:05 .

[The Twilight God]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

In the destroy ending and every other one all the fleets leave the system and the mass relays are toast, but supposedly repairable, right? Given that all the fleets have left the system and can't return until the relays have been repaired it makes rescuing Shepard from the rubble a little bit problematic, doesn't it? I'm sure there are shuttles left on Earth, but didn't it say that all tech would be damaged? Given that the Citadel's mass effect envelope would be down, wouldn't he be exposed to vacuum?

They leave using FTL drives, not the relay, which is explicitly shown. So they can come back using as much time as it took them to leave. All tech is damaged in low EMS, not in high, which again is shown.

Fair call with the FTl thing, I remember that now, my bad. The Normandy does use the relay though given the whole stupid garden world crash thing which doesn't sense like any of the rest of it. The citadel explodes though, Shepard's hardsuit in no longer intact and there's still the whole vacuum thing. The mass effect envelope would still have to be intact for him to survive.

The Citadel doesn't blow up. Parts of it explode and break apart. Which contradicts the established lore that the exterior shell is of an indestructable alloy. However, the tower section is intact. The tower tip, where the council chambers would be, is blow off is it became the focus point for the beam.

[Cucobr]

maaaze wrote...

It is good for your headcanon ... you can imagine how his life would have continued.

but Shepards story is done...and that is good in my opinion...let´s explore something new.

explore new characters.

"is done with the breath scene"? rly? is it enough for you? 100 hours+ of game play, decisions, etc... and breath scene is all that we get?

For me, isn't enough.Not even close to that.

Modifié par Cucobr, 17 juillet 2012 - 02:17 .

[ddraigcoch123]

i just wondered if we changed the word 'headcannon' for 'imagination' that those of you who are having trouble seeing that we are not at all happy that our 'very visual video game' that we have played for many many many hours (and having invested a bit of ourselves in our creation....) is expecting us to 'headcannon' our chosen ending... and we are not satisfied that we have to 'make up' 'imagine' 'pretend' or otherwise inwardly satisfy our desire for both closure and satisfaction...

you see the monkey played the game as agreed within the parameters of the free will and choice offered... enjoyed very much the illusion of being a hero/a in our own movie... and the monkey expected the peanut/banana when said task was completed... this monkey chose to live, to beat the odds, to be prepared to sacrifice but win through in the true heroic tradition... monkey dissatisfied and is now throwing faecies as any well trained monkey will do in this situation...

Modifié par ddraigcoch123, 17 juillet 2012 - 02:34 .

[3DandBeyond]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

It is good for your headcanon ... you can imagine how his life would have continued.

but Shepards story is done...and that is good in my opinion...let´s explore something new.

explore new characters.

You could have done that anyway, without these lousy endings.  Just show Shepard in retirement or as someone you might consult with a new character in the future--a kind of Anderson or Hackett figure.

BioWare will soon realize that this was a terrible decision and really bad writing.  I suspect that's why you couldn't find the writers responsible for this ending at SDCC with a search party.

What is evident, no matter what anyone thinks is that this was a bad business decision, but anyone could have told them that.  In order to make replay and pre-game DLC relevant, you need to create sufficiently different and coherent reasonable endings that are attainable more or less based upon what you do.

I could play ME2 repeatedly and find enjoyment.  I find different bits of conversation and use different teammates for the end mission.  I see no reason to replay ME3 through to the end and if not to the end, it is kind of pointless. But I find the ending depressing and demoralizing, not fun and not what I play games for.

[AresKeith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

It is good for your headcanon ... you can imagine how his life would have continued.

but Shepards story is done...and that is good in my opinion...let´s explore something new.

explore new characters.

You could have done that anyway, without these lousy endings.  Just show Shepard in retirement or as someone you might consult with a new character in the future--a kind of Anderson or Hackett figure.

BioWare will soon realize that this was a terrible decision and really bad writing.  I suspect that's why you couldn't find the writers responsible for this ending at SDCC with a search party.

What is evident, no matter what anyone thinks is that this was a bad business decision, but anyone could have told them that.  In order to make replay and pre-game DLC relevant, you need to create sufficiently different and coherent reasonable endings that are attainable more or less based upon what you do.

I could play ME2 repeatedly and find enjoyment.  I find different bits of conversation and use different teammates for the end mission.  I see no reason to replay ME3 through to the end and if not to the end, it is kind of pointless. But I find the ending depressing and demoralizing, not fun and not what I play games for.

more and more I want them to re-make the whole game and do it right, but keep the combat lol

[aMytallica]

It's not hard to make assumptions or draw conclusions on Shepard’s fate. Shepard breathes, therefore she is alive. Crew is alive and not stranded; therefore they could/will eventually reunite. However, regardless if feels a bit hollow. It was great finally being able to see the fate of the galaxy in the EC; to see the results of all that Shepard had been fighting for, but Shepard’s own fate is left so ambiguous, and it seems little out of touch with the rest of the game.

I don't really want to have to speculate or assume how everything plays out for Shepard. It’s extremely unsatisfying, especially for romances. I would liken it to the final Pirates film, At World's End. (Spoilers) How incredibly depressing would it have been to walk out of the cinema if you didn't see the scene of Elizabeth waiting for Will as his ship reappears ten years later? I remember thinking it was a terrible way to end their story, until this scene played out at the end of the credits. That’s how ME3 feels to me. I think a small scene like that (reunited with Normandy and/or LI) would have made a massive difference.

I loved this game. But for all the amazing moments/improvements in ME3, finishing it doesn’t leave you feeling excited to start all over again like ME1 or ME2 did. In the end, it just feels like BioWare didn't really want to commit to Shepard's fate either way. And the comments at SDCC just make me think this even more.

Modifié par aMytallica, 17 juillet 2012 - 03:54 .

[The Twilight God]

aMytallica wrote...

It's not hard to make assumptions or draw conclusions on Shepard’s fate. Shepard breathes, therefore she is alive. Crew is alive and not stranded; therefore they could/will eventually reunite.

How are they not stranded?
Because they can take off?
And go where exactly?
 
Fuel isn't infinite.

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I would suggest watching or reading anything with a narrative that is over twenty years old.

This has been done countless times and people always use the exact same response. Everytime.

If it doesn't work for you, even when the creators have stated the obvious stop grousing about it.

I would have done it differently, but I can't change it so I have to go with the information that is supplied, suggested and inferred.

"I'm happy so STFU" 

It doesn't just "not work" for one person, it doesnt' work for a lot of people, and never did.  Even if this is some time-honored tradition of headgames at the end of a trilogy, it was still done badly, and they didn't life a finger to improve it in EC.

It absolutely does not matter what is or isn't done in other stories and games.  The only games/stories relevant to how this ending should have been handled and thus Shepard was handled are ME games and there are 2 of them that promised us implicitly that that is what ME has and always will be about.  If ME1 and 2 had ended differently and say in ME 2 the last scene is of Shepard and 2 teammates laying their unconscious (before Shepard gets up and grabs the other 2 up) I might have expected an unfinished head canon scene in ME3.  If in ME1 when Shepard is buried beneath the citadel rubble, we were never shown Shepard alive and we saw a later scene of Liara smiling, I might have expected an unfinished head canon ending in ME3.  If that were the case, I would have never played either of them more than once. 

But the 2 most important determining factors in how an ending in ME3 probably would be shown gave us real closure on their stories and it showed us Shepard's fate, post-battle.  We get a bit more at the end of ME1 because it sets the stage for the adversity to come and also it shows humanity being taken into the "family" so to speak.  ME2 gives us a briefer, but no less heroic and even more poignant precursor of things to come-a promise of how ME game endings are handled and most importantly how the hero is handled.

I don't give a rat's behind what happens in other stories and how cool and awesome it is to imagine stuff (though I have never cared for that and I think of it like the "artistic vision" crap we were handed-it's lazy).  I care what happened in ME.  We have far more closure for the Krogan and Zaeed than Shepard.  We have more for just about everyone else but Shepard.  That is not the way this story handles endings.  It is because they couldn't imagine a decent way to do it, because they couldn't even imagine a decent ending to begin with.  Don't give me some garbage that it was done to be artistic and for the benefit of players so they were free to imagine whatever they wanted.  That is utter BS.

I can name you a list of a lot of arthouse films and there are some great ones, but I  think they are no more relevant to how ME3 should show its story and its hero than I think Pac Man is relevant.  Yeah we have to live with the pile of excrement sandwich they substituted for Filet Mignon, but we don't have to like it.

Storytelling 101, also know as Creative Writing.  When you write a story (especially a series of stories) you make certain promises to the reader.  You will follow themes, goals, and be true to the story and characters you have created.  These promises are never to be broken.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 17 juillet 2012 - 04:23 .

[3DandBeyond]

The Twilight God wrote...

aMytallica wrote...

It's not hard to make assumptions or draw conclusions on Shepard’s fate. Shepard breathes, therefore she is alive. Crew is alive and not stranded; therefore they could/will eventually reunite.

How are they not stranded?
Because they can take off?
And go where exactly?
 
Fuel isn't infinite.

It's a hybrid Normandy-gets extra miles per gallon of magic star fuel.

[aMytallica]

The Twilight God wrote...

aMytallica wrote...

It's not hard to make assumptions or draw conclusions on Shepard’s fate. Shepard breathes, therefore she is alive. Crew is alive and not stranded; therefore they could/will eventually reunite.

How are they not stranded?
Because they can take off?
And go where exactly?
 
Fuel isn't infinite.

Obviously. The point I was making is that you can make assumptions if you so wish. It might require a more optimistic perspective, but you could. But it wasn't the way to end the series. It should have been much more definitive. Too many unanswered questions just make the whole experience extremely unsatisfying.

[3DandBeyond]

The Twilight God wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Bioware insists the torso in rubble is a "happy" ending. Bioware continually insists that from this it is obvious that a reunion will take place. Bioware stated on twitter and on other places that the LI not placing the name on the wall and the Normandy flying off indicates, no clearly says Shepard lives and will be found by his/her teammates.

Bioware people have also said it's Shep's last breath. They all have different opinions on it. They can make up anything at any time because it's not written in stone. Ergo, their headcanon is no more valid than any other person who ignores lore. Keeping to the lore a reunion does not take place for destroy - Period.

Destroy is the CRAPPIEST ending you can get despite being the only choice that makes any sense for Shep to make.

Absolutely agree.  I think all endings suck like a Dyson.  Destroy is supposed to make sense but it makes no sense.  Yeah it's a gasp for air, but it's a totally screwed up ending.   They all are but this is the one you are supposed to want to pick. 

[Iakus]

wantedman dan wrote...

In all seriousness, folks, this reeks of something foul. If they truly intended to offer the player hope, they wouldn't have offered such miserable endings with only one offering only a modicum of such.

Yup

If they werwe concerned about the endings being too bleak, couldn't they have, oh I dunno, made the endings less bleak, or provide possibly happier alternatives, rather than putting in an amibguous "SHepard might still be alive!
 easter egg.

[3DandBeyond]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

But trick here is that Bioware wanted you to...think about the ending.

To be a participant...

No - if you buy what they claim they wanted you to stop being a participant and take over entirely yourself. They wanted to stop participating.

Art is a participatory medium. 

You're supposed to take over certain parts.

That's what art is.

Ok art my big fat asset.  Honest to god I have studied art and I've studied writing and I've played videogames for far longer than probably all of you. 

I am so sick of the word art and I paint.  I would no more call what I paint art than I would all a cup of manure art.  And why is that?  Because I as the creator can never determine if something is art or isn't. 

This is a freaking video game.  To be sure in parts it rivals some truly good  or great stories or movies, but for goodness sake, it has reaper tag in it (and the most incredibly bad fetch missions to date) as well as people goo in vats.

It is extremely convenient to say that an interactive game (participatory by default and definition) needs to feature a lot of thought about only one ending and not the others.

You know what games that don't show a decent ending with closure are called? Hint: it's not art. They are called reduced price bargains.

I've played the Uncharted games and I can definitely tell you that storywise and graphically some of the things that take place rival things in ME-they are linear though because of the type of games they are.  There are moments within those games where you literally stop to appreciate the scenery and then others when you will laugh out loud at what is said (but sometimes it takes a moment to hit you).  Artistic, maybe so in story, character, dialogue and yes, graphics.  And they do know how to show what happens to the characters at the end and even the very flawed hero of the series, a lovable cad.  The fact that they give you epilogues doesn't take anything away from the games, rather they add to them.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 17 juillet 2012 - 04:47 .

[3DandBeyond]

Reorte wrote...

For the record, what I would've found satisfying - remove the breath scene and replace the Stargazer (so it's post credits) with a hand pulling Shepard out of the rubble (not necessarily a cewmember's hand, that wouldn't make sense), and with Shepard looking alive enough to very definitely not be dead. I'd have still liked an actual reunion but I think this would've been enough for me.

I believe yes they could have removed the star gazer. 

What I could see is getting rid of the memorial wall or just show Anderson's and (ugh) EDI's names.  Then have a scene like the wall scene later on with someone in the Med lab and people crowded around.  Camera pulls in, people part and it's Shepard alive.  LI enters and they exchange a knowing glance if possible or some recognition that it's over at last and they are alive.  This scene could take place as Hackett is talking but he just talks about rebuilding and then the voice over turns into Shepard's voice talking right when we see that Shepard is alive, about working together and all that.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Bottom line: we read the books, we played the games over a period of 5 years and they gave us a s*** f*** of an ending.

I don't care how you color it. I don't care how you scent it. I don't care how you sweeten it. I don't care how much they try to explain it. They can't explain it because not even Hudson and Walters know how it is supposed to end, and they don't give a **** either otherwise the EC would have had a definitive end for the Destroy ending.

But they couldn't kill off Shepard outright because EA wants DLC sales, and that would mean no DLC sales. And they don't want to have an ending where actually show Shepard surviving because it would be too videogamey.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 17 juillet 2012 - 05:08 .

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I believe yes they could have removed the star gazer. 

What I could see is getting rid of the memorial wall or just show Anderson's and (ugh) EDI's names.  Then have a scene like the wall scene later on with someone in the Med lab and people crowded around.  Camera pulls in, people part and it's Shepard alive.  LI enters and they exchange a knowing glance if possible or some recognition that it's over at last and they are alive.  This scene could take place as Hackett is talking but he just talks about rebuilding and then the voice over turns into Shepard's voice talking right when we see that Shepard is alive, about working together and all that.

It doesn't even have to be that complicated.  They can keep the Stargazer, keep the memorial wall.  Just add a line to it as the LI is hesitating.  Over the intercomm, have someone from the Fleet call and say "Shepard's been found.  He/She's alive!"

Or if we want to get fancier, remove the breath scene, have Shepard wake up in a hospital.  If we want to toss in a reunion have a silouette appear at the door and the VA for the LI simply say "Shepard"

My own personal thought would be to remove both the breath scene and the memmorial wall, and have a funeral.  If Shepard's dead, Hackett is speaking at Shepard's funeral.  If Shepard's alive, Shep is speaking at Anderson's.

::sigh::It would have taken so little effort to provide genuine hope and closure..   This ain't rocket surgery.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

::sigh::It would have taken so little effort to provide genuine hope and closure..   This ain't rocket surgery.

For you, perhaps.

Thousands of others would hate your scene because it's not how "their Shepard" would act.

Modifié par chemiclord, 17 juillet 2012 - 05:16 .

[spirosz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

But trick here is that Bioware wanted you to...think about the ending.

To be a participant...

No - if you buy what they claim they wanted you to stop being a participant and take over entirely yourself. They wanted to stop participating.

Art is a participatory medium. 

You're supposed to take over certain parts.

That's what art is.

Ok art my big fat asset.  Honest to god I have studied art and I've studied writing and I've played videogames for far longer than probably all of you. 

I am so sick of the word art and I paint.  I would no more call what I paint art than I would all a cup of manure art.  And why is that?  Because I as the creator can never determine if something is art or isn't. 

This is a freaking video game.  To be sure in parts it rivals some truly good  or great stories or movies, but for goodness sake, it has reaper tag in it (and the most incredibly bad fetch missions to date) as well as people goo in vats.

It is extremely convenient to say that an interactive game (participatory by default and definition) needs to feature a lot of thought about only one ending and not the others.

You know what games that don't show a decent ending with closure are called? Hint: it's not art. They are called reduced price bargains.

I've played the Uncharted games and I can definitely tell you that storywise and graphically some of the things that take place rival things in ME-they are linear though because of the type of games they are.  There are moments within those games where you literally stop to appreciate the scenery and then others when you will laugh out loud at what is said (but sometimes it takes a moment to hit you).  Artistic, maybe so in story, character, dialogue and yes, graphics.  And they do know how to show what happens to the characters at the end and even the very flawed hero of the series, a lovable cad.  The fact that they give you epilogues doesn't take anything away from the games, rather they add to them.

At the bolded part, that doesn't really help your argument, haha.  

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

::sigh::It would have taken so little effort to provide genuine hope and closure..   This ain't rocket surgery.

For you, perhaps.

Thousands of others would hate your scene because it's not how "their Shepard" would act.

You'll notice that aside from the funeral scene (which I admitted was my own "ideal" ending and may not reflect the thoughts of others) SHepard actually "does" nothing in these scenerios.

How would their Shepard act to news being delivered to the Normandy that Shep was alive?  

Would different Shepard wake up differently?

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

You'll notice that aside from the funeral scene (which I admitted was my own "ideal" ending and may not reflect the thoughts of others) SHepard actually "does" nothing in these scenerios.

How would their Shepard act to news being delivered to the Normandy that Shep was alive?  

Would different Shepard wake up differently?

I think you underestimate how far people will go to feel torqued.

"MY SHEPARD WOULD HAVE CRAWLED OUT THE RUBBLE AND GOT OUT HIMSELF LIKE HE DID IN ME1!  **** YOU BIOWARE!!!"

Modifié par chemiclord, 17 juillet 2012 - 05:26 .

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

I think you underestimate how far people will go to feel torqued.

"MY SHEPARD WOULD HAVE CRAWLED OUT THE RUBBLE AND GOT OUT HIMSELF LIKE HE DID IN ME1!  **** YOU BIOWARE!!!"

I'd be willing to bet that the number is considerably less than those that feel torqued that Shepard is stuck in the rubble now.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

I'd be willing to bet that the number is considerably less than those that feel torqued that Shepard is stuck in the rubble now.

Whether or not the number is less is largely irrelevant.

They tried to cater to as many people as they could rather than outright alienate segments of their fanbase.  It didn't work, but I see it for what the attempt was rather than laziness or uncaring.

They clearly don't understand the axiom, "If you try to please everyone, you'll wind up pleasing no one," but whatever.