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[mopotter]

Pitznik wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Either of these would have worked!  

I like the memorial wall and when Shepard died it was nice seeing them put her name up.  But the breath scene where they just start to put it up and then don't, to me, that was lame.  None of them, as far as I know, are telepaths so a feeling that Shepard was a live is just hoping nothing else.   

Unless they got the message "We found Shepard."

They should have announced it then.  No reason not to.  

[Pitznik]

mopotter wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Either of these would have worked!  

I like the memorial wall and when Shepard died it was nice seeing them put her name up.  But the breath scene where they just start to put it up and then don't, to me, that was lame.  None of them, as far as I know, are telepaths so a feeling that Shepard was a live is just hoping nothing else.   

Unless they got the message "We found Shepard."

They should have announced it then.  No reason not to.  

There are plenty reasons, dramatic, artistic etc. It was discussed already, in this very thread. But there is no conclusion, some people like things being subtle and requiring participation, some prefer to have everything shown explicitly. There is no wrong or right way.

[wright1978]

riesenwiesel wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Either of these would have worked!  

I like the memorial wall and when Shepard died it was nice seeing them put her name up.  But the breath scene where they just start to put it up and then don't, to me, that was lame.  None of them, as far as I know, are telepaths so a feeling that Shepard was a live is just hoping nothing else.   

Unless they got the message "We found Shepard."

In that case they were pretty fast printing out that nameplate... so much trust in their friend and leader, really?

For me Normandy are stranded, with no idea where they are and Comms are fried. Memorial scene is just them believing Shep and Anderson died during explosion rather than them having received any official word.  High EMS i just read it that the sensor readings taken from the explosion are less conclusive as to Shep's fate and the crew are holding out hope that he/she survived and not putting it on wall.

[DistantUtopia]

Or, they could have done it like this:

*LI walks up to the wall, running their fingers over Shepard's name almost longingly before raising it to the wall. Just as they are about to place it among the fallen, their name is called over the ship's PA then the scene fades to black.

*Scene change* - we now get the breath scene.

This would have worked better for me than what we currently have.

[3DandBeyond]

spiros9110 wrote...


At the bolded part, that doesn't really help your argument, haha.  

Well if your point is because I'm old I don't know what I'm talking about then I forgive you for your bias:whistle:.

My only point in saying that is that art is not a static device and it has morphed throughout the years.  I am not trying to set myself up as some authority or expert, merely stating I am so sick and tired of people acting as if art is sacrosanct and that videogames have now attained that same level, when neither is true.

Art has always been a utility and a creation.  It is a contradiction and it has at times been contrived by some benefactor (I need you to paint this) and an actual record of an event (especially prior to photography when speaking of painting).  Early photography was for merely record keeping as well but as it progressed it became more artfully done, but arguments still exist over the art of it all.  Art of any kind is still a commodity and just like a tree that falls in a forest without ears to form the sound it makes, it cannot exist in a vaccuum.  It is not art if no one recognizes it as such.

I see and have seen the change in video games throughout the years and I will say I have seen true art in an Infocom game that had no video aspect - a text adventure.  There has also been a category created for true "art" video games.  Some video games are visually artistic and some musically, some merely are in their stories and even in their game play.  Okami had a few different artistic elements.

But at their core video games are a commodity just as .mp3s are commodities.  The music is art, too but the performer wants to make money off of it.  Once you decide to sell something, it becomes a product and it can be criticized on any part based on perceived value.  Its intrinsic artistic value becomes really not much of a concern. 

Just as no artist out there today that wants to eat can ignore what a buying public might like, no creator of a video game can ignore what buyers might like.  And like it or not a video game is not a book.  It exists because it appeals to an audience with a need for visually engrossing and interactive entertainment.  While perhaps considered "artistically" wrong to show the player everything, it is what the medium is meant to do.  It is also what ME has always done.  That is an implicit promise that exists within the type of game played.  ME was never set up as a Picasso painting, where you must follow the lines and form and find the meaning and the beauty and the heart.  ME was more like a realist's work, that didn't say you needed to guess what it's all about.  You were shown what things meant.  If they wanted the game to be something more like a David Lynch movie, then that is a different game and a different story. 

I've played a lot of different games and different genres.  I've played 2 games where you do have to head canon a lot of the story because the story is never really told to you in the games and these games are great.  Demon's Souls and Dark Souls.  I don't mind in these 2 games that I don't get some big epilogue because the action was the thing.  I don't mind that there are not a lot of cutscenes with a story that unfolds-the action is the thing.  ME is not Demon's or Dark Souls.  The story and seeing the story unfold made sense and were told and shown to us throughout.  We participated in this version of "art" by making choices along the way and then seeing what happened because of our choices.

In Demon's and Dark Souls I was never promised I would see or know the story and what it all meant so I never expected to and it didn't matter.  That wasn't central to them and their art.  But it is central and always was central to ME1, 2, and 3.  We didn't head canon Grunt coming out of the pit alive.  We were shown that Grunt did.  We didn't  head canon until we get to the torso in rubble.  That is it.  While you did have to head canon much of the original endings, you never had to head canon a dead Shepard.  That was shown to you.  The only thing that now exists as head canon in 3 games and the most important thing, the one thing that should not be head canonned is the fate and meaning of a living Shepard.  That's not how ME should have ended.  It's not what the game and story promised and not what has ever happened in it before.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 17 juillet 2012 - 03:31 .

[SpamBot2000]

Hey folks. Since you like Arty games, Dear Esther is dirt cheap at Steam now.

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

Reorte wrote...

A thought that's just occured to me - if you accept "Shepard lives" because that's obviously the intention of the writers then presumably you accept that Synthesis is perfect and has no downsides whatsoever, because that's clearly the intention of the writers.

Other than (a) you're dead, ( everyone's DNA has been rewritten against their will, and © the diversity of the galaxy has been adulterated.

Also, everything is green.

[GreenFlag]

This make sense, finally

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

GreenFlag wrote...

This make sense, finally

That is a better ending!

[The Twilight God]

chemiclord wrote...

For you, perhaps.

Thousands of others would hate your scene because it's not how "their Shepard" would act.

Bioware's answer: Tough.

Because my Infiltrator renegade wouldn't give a rats ass about that stupid kid, but ALL Shepards are forced to care about the little brat. Shepard is now canonically a softy.

[Reorte]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

A thought that's just occured to me - if you accept "Shepard lives" because that's obviously the intention of the writers then presumably you accept that Synthesis is perfect and has no downsides whatsoever, because that's clearly the intention of the writers.

Other than (a) you're dead, ( everyone's DNA has been rewritten against their will, and © the diversity of the galaxy has been adulterated.

Also, everything is green.

I know, stupid isn't it? That's why I don't think much of the "it's clearly the author's intent" argument. The same authors who clearly intended to show Shepard alive also clearly intended Synthesis to be absolutely perfect, and little things like being dead and fundamentally changing everyone else aren't a problem. Whatever their intent I don't buy all of that as plausible so reject that perfection.

[MordiMoro]

Shepard is like Darth Vader for the Star Wars universe. 
After Shepard, the future is Darth Maul.


(and James Vega is Jar Jar Binks )

Modifié par MordiMoro, 17 juillet 2012 - 04:54 .

[Sajuro]

v0rt3x22 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

It is good for your headcanon ... you can imagine how his life would have continued.

but Shepards story is done...and that is good in my opinion...let´s explore something new.

explore new characters.

Ah I see - so him surviving - and his LI going out to look for him - is all left up to my imagination.

Your shepard can survive and go back to his LI having hot sex every day if you want while if I wanted my Shepard could become a recluse or have massive survivor's guilt for living through destroy.

[Omega Torsk]

I don't think that even they knew what the endings were originally supposed to mean.

[Reorte]

Pitznik wrote...

I wonder, where the hell Normandy is actually. They're supposed to go to rendezvous pont, that means no uncharted planet, no dark space, but some sensible location. Sword fleet doesn't seem to use Mass Relay, they look like entering FTL, so they should be still in the Local Cluster... but only system in Local Cluster is Sol (I know that's how it is in game, I have no knowledge about astronomy whatsoever), and there are no planets so terraformed to be green and habitable by humans... Mass Relay also is pretty much the first thing to be damaged after Citadel shoots the red space magic beam. So where the hell are they and how they got there?

This, funnily enough, is where I'm happy to make some assumptions. My assumption is that there are a lot of planets that are known, charted, explored, and even populated that we don't get to go to in the game and that this is one of those that's conveniently near Earth. That said, there aren't very many likely candidates within a dozen or so LY of Sol. Epsilon Eridani perhaps (it's got at least one large planet and a lot of dust and asteroids). It might be a bit young for lots of life.

[Pitznik]

Reorte wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

I wonder, where the hell Normandy is actually. They're supposed to go to rendezvous pont, that means no uncharted planet, no dark space, but some sensible location. Sword fleet doesn't seem to use Mass Relay, they look like entering FTL, so they should be still in the Local Cluster... but only system in Local Cluster is Sol (I know that's how it is in game, I have no knowledge about astronomy whatsoever), and there are no planets so terraformed to be green and habitable by humans... Mass Relay also is pretty much the first thing to be damaged after Citadel shoots the red space magic beam. So where the hell are they and how they got there?

This, funnily enough, is where I'm happy to make some assumptions. My assumption is that there are a lot of planets that are known, charted, explored, and even populated that we don't get to go to in the game and that this is one of those that's conveniently near Earth. That said, there aren't very many likely candidates within a dozen or so LY of Sol. Epsilon Eridani perhaps (it's got at least one large planet and a lot of dust and asteroids). It might be a bit young for lots of life.

Mass Effect wiki about FTL: With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed
in the course of a day's cruise without bending space-time and causing time dilation.

Thank you, I find your answer satisfying enough, so I can still feel "ok" about that scene. Cheers!

[Reorte]

Pitznik wrote...

Mass Effect wiki about FTL: With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed
in the course of a day's cruise without bending space-time and causing time dilation.

Thank you, I find your answer satisfying enough, so I can still feel "ok" about that scene. Cheers!

Glad that we can agree on something! Mind you, applying real astronomy to Mass Effect can get a bit dubious. The only star near Arcturus that could possibly be Euler is about 12 ly from Arcturus (a shade more IIRC) but it's also a fairly short in-cluster journey for the Normandy, and the amount of fuel used for it suggests that the Normandy has a range of over 100 ly.

[Pitznik]

Reorte wrote...

Glad that we can agree on something! Mind you, applying real astronomy to Mass Effect can get a bit dubious. The only star near Arcturus that could possibly be Euler is about 12 ly from Arcturus (a shade more IIRC) but it's also a fairly short in-cluster journey for the Normandy, and the amount of fuel used for it suggests that the Normandy has a range of over 100 ly.

Yeah, I don't intend to overanalyze it, I just wanted the -possibility- they didn't leave through now broken relay and are hopelessly stuck somewhere with either dextro or levo part of the crew reliant on Normandy's food supply.

[dorktainian]

could we not just have shep maybe regain conciousness and get up, then cutting to the crew stranded on the jungle hell planet? shep is alive, and his crew are alive. how difficult is that?

[Reorte]

dorktainian wrote...

could we not just have shep maybe regain conciousness and get up, then cutting to the crew stranded on the jungle hell planet? shep is alive, and his crew are alive. how difficult is that?

They're not stranded there in the EC (with enough EMS anyway).

[dorktainian]

Reorte wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

could we not just have shep maybe regain conciousness and get up, then cutting to the crew stranded on the jungle hell planet? shep is alive, and his crew are alive. how difficult is that?

They're not stranded there in the EC (with enough EMS anyway).

yeah i know, but surely more clarification of sheps fate would have been welcome.

[TheFlyingBeer]

Mmm... I guess we are all (?) a bit confused by the things that have been said during SDCC (the famous breath scene means shepard is going to die or to live...?) and this: http://www.dsogaming...mass-effect-3/. Contradiction you've said? O_o'

[clarkusdarkus]

a beacon of hope to EA means if we wanna see shepard again we'll be downloading him as a dlc character in MP.

[Pitznik]

TheFlyingBeer wrote...

Mmm... I guess we are all (?) a bit confused by the things that have been said during SDCC (the famous breath scene means shepard is going to die or to live...?) and this: http://www.dsogaming...mass-effect-3/. Contradiction you've said? O_o'

It's not contradiction. Shepard is alive at the end of the game with high EMS destroy. And in this moment, story ends.

What happens next is not said, and remains open. Is Shepard alive? Yes. Can he die like 2 seconds after fade to black? Yes. Can he be rescued 2 seconds after fade to black? Yes. Can he spontaneously explode 2 seconds after fade to black? Yes (that one is unlikely, though).

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Pitznik wrote...

TheFlyingBeer wrote...

Mmm... I guess we are all (?) a bit confused by the things that have been said during SDCC (the famous breath scene means shepard is going to die or to live...?) and this: http://www.dsogaming...mass-effect-3/. Contradiction you've said? O_o'

It's not contradiction. Shepard is alive at the end of the game with high EMS destroy. And in this moment, story ends.

What happens next is not said, and remains open. Is Shepard alive? Yes. Can he die like 2 seconds after fade to black? Yes. Can he be rescued 2 seconds after fade to black? Yes. Can he spontaneously explode 2 seconds after fade to black? Yes (that one is unlikely, though).

Can he be attacked by weeping angels? Yes.