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BioWare on "Shepard survives" scene: "We wanted to give them a little beacon of hope."


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#551
3DandBeyond

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devSin wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

There was no "some day we'll return to the stars" scene. The kid asked when he can go to the stars. I'm not saying your intepretation is impossible, but again, it was not all as bleak as you make it to be.

All I have to judge the ending by are the statements Casey and Mac made prior to release and the interviews and information released with the Final Hours app.

If there's some contradictory information that you have, by all means, share it with us.

(You're right that the Stargazer scene is not entirely for that purpose—it's more a message to the player than a story element—but the function of the statement is not that the kid is going to be traveling to the active galactic community, which doesn't exist in that scene by design.)

Info from the final hours-original intent of crucible - it would create galactic dark ages.  Info from text dump from game-stargazer scene was 10k years in the future.

Grandpa indicates that what is out there is unknown-there could be many stars, many worlds, many people-paraphrasing.  But he says it without certainty-there could be.  They originally wanted the endings to be destructive and very dark-mass relays destroyed and star systems gone.  Normandy stranded-looked like the planet with the toxic food where they found Jacob's father.  And when people got upset about it they started retconning it all on twitter, because twitter is where you go to find out what happened in your game.

#552
Iakus

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Do you honestly believe Shepard is going to lie there and wait for the Normandy crew to rescue him?

"Surprise! I wasn't dead after all! Now help me up, my legs have rotted off!"


"Hello?  Anybody out there?  I think I need medical attention..."

#553
Iakus

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3DandBeyond wrote...

devSin wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

There was no "some day we'll return to the stars" scene. The kid asked when he can go to the stars. I'm not saying your intepretation is impossible, but again, it was not all as bleak as you make it to be.

All I have to judge the ending by are the statements Casey and Mac made prior to release and the interviews and information released with the Final Hours app.

If there's some contradictory information that you have, by all means, share it with us.

(You're right that the Stargazer scene is not entirely for that purpose—it's more a message to the player than a story element—but the function of the statement is not that the kid is going to be traveling to the active galactic community, which doesn't exist in that scene by design.)

Info from the final hours-original intent of crucible - it would create galactic dark ages.  Info from text dump from game-stargazer scene was 10k years in the future.

Grandpa indicates that what is out there is unknown-there could be many stars, many worlds, many people-paraphrasing.  But he says it without certainty-there could be.  They originally wanted the endings to be destructive and very dark-mass relays destroyed and star systems gone.  Normandy stranded-looked like the planet with the toxic food where they found Jacob's father.  And when people got upset about it they started retconning it all on twitter, because twitter is where you go to find out what happened in your game.


Plus:  www.youtube.com/watch

#554
Iakus

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Taboo-XX wrote...

It's called cross cutting devSin. For the last ****ing time.

The point is to create an emotional response.


It did.

A negative emotional response.  That's worse than a boring cookie-cutter ending.  

It failed to inspire hope in many people.  It failed.  That's the important part.  Intentions mean nothing if action doesn't follow.  And somehow Bioware thinks it's our fault that we "don't get it"

But Bioware's refusal to expand on the scene shows that it is they who don't get it.

#555
3DandBeyond

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Reorte wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Nope the original endings were meant to be ambigious. Because most people started jumping to the darkest conclusions and the fans raged they promised to provide an extended cut that would provide added closure and clarification. Yet in high EMS destroy ending they were too cheap to clarify the Shep breathes scene and provide additional closure to this ending.

People weren't jumping to the darkest conclusions, they were jumping to the most likely possibilities given the limited information we had. Even when the most likely conclusion is a positive one if there's even the smallest hint of ambiguity there's still that nagging doubt at the back of the mind that prevents complete satisfaction for many people.


In the original endings all star systems should pretty much have been totally screwed-2 reasons.  The Arrival, but then they went on twitter and said the explosions weren't that bad-ok, yeah sure.  And then the codex "Desperate Measures" which says a rupture of a mass relay will ruin all terrestrial worlds in a star system.  That's pretty clear.  But now people say you aren't supposed to believe a codex entry.  Ok so some people agree twitter is more important than the codex.

We saw it as dark because there was no other way to view it.  Most people grasp onto happier choices whenver possible.  The writers made it very difficult.  And it still is.  Because the darkest endings have closure the only conclusion is they don't think there should be any sort of brighter (semi-bright because the galaxy is still messed up) ending.

#556
AresKeith

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3DandBeyond wrote...

devSin wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

There was no "some day we'll return to the stars" scene. The kid asked when he can go to the stars. I'm not saying your intepretation is impossible, but again, it was not all as bleak as you make it to be.

All I have to judge the ending by are the statements Casey and Mac made prior to release and the interviews and information released with the Final Hours app.

If there's some contradictory information that you have, by all means, share it with us.

(You're right that the Stargazer scene is not entirely for that purpose—it's more a message to the player than a story element—but the function of the statement is not that the kid is going to be traveling to the active galactic community, which doesn't exist in that scene by design.)

Info from the final hours-original intent of crucible - it would create galactic dark ages.  Info from text dump from game-stargazer scene was 10k years in the future.

Grandpa indicates that what is out there is unknown-there could be many stars, many worlds, many people-paraphrasing.  But he says it without certainty-there could be.  They originally wanted the endings to be destructive and very dark-mass relays destroyed and star systems gone.  Normandy stranded-looked like the planet with the toxic food where they found Jacob's father.  And when people got upset about it they started retconning it all on twitter, because twitter is where you go to find out what happened in your game.


it sounds like they forgot what Mass Effect was about at that time too

#557
3DandBeyond

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iakus wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

devSin wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

There was no "some day we'll return to the stars" scene. The kid asked when he can go to the stars. I'm not saying your intepretation is impossible, but again, it was not all as bleak as you make it to be.

All I have to judge the ending by are the statements Casey and Mac made prior to release and the interviews and information released with the Final Hours app.

If there's some contradictory information that you have, by all means, share it with us.

(You're right that the Stargazer scene is not entirely for that purpose—it's more a message to the player than a story element—but the function of the statement is not that the kid is going to be traveling to the active galactic community, which doesn't exist in that scene by design.)

Info from the final hours-original intent of crucible - it would create galactic dark ages.  Info from text dump from game-stargazer scene was 10k years in the future.

Grandpa indicates that what is out there is unknown-there could be many stars, many worlds, many people-paraphrasing.  But he says it without certainty-there could be.  They originally wanted the endings to be destructive and very dark-mass relays destroyed and star systems gone.  Normandy stranded-looked like the planet with the toxic food where they found Jacob's father.  And when people got upset about it they started retconning it all on twitter, because twitter is where you go to find out what happened in your game.


Plus:  www.youtube.com/watch


Yeah no after ME3 DLC that's it since it's a wasteland.  Good luck with that.

#558
ddraigcoch123

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3DandBeyond wrote...

iakus wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

devSin wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

There was no "some day we'll return to the stars" scene. The kid asked when he can go to the stars. I'm not saying your intepretation is impossible, but again, it was not all as bleak as you make it to be.

All I have to judge the ending by are the statements Casey and Mac made prior to release and the interviews and information released with the Final Hours app.

If there's some contradictory information that you have, by all means, share it with us.

(You're right that the Stargazer scene is not entirely for that purpose—it's more a message to the player than a story element—but the function of the statement is not that the kid is going to be traveling to the active galactic community, which doesn't exist in that scene by design.)

Info from the final hours-original intent of crucible - it would create galactic dark ages.  Info from text dump from game-stargazer scene was 10k years in the future.

Grandpa indicates that what is out there is unknown-there could be many stars, many worlds, many people-paraphrasing.  But he says it without certainty-there could be.  They originally wanted the endings to be destructive and very dark-mass relays destroyed and star systems gone.  Normandy stranded-looked like the planet with the toxic food where they found Jacob's father.  And when people got upset about it they started retconning it all on twitter, because twitter is where you go to find out what happened in your game.


Plus:  www.youtube.com/watch


Yeah no after ME3 DLC that's it since it's a wasteland.  Good luck with that.


yep 'looking at a wasteland' is what he says... but tell me this... if you create a product that has a pretty decent following of fans/consumers who would be more than willing to buy another game (if it was in the true spirit of ME) why the heck would you be so determined to kill it off???

i mean if the original creators/writers are tired of it there are plenty who would be happy to take their place...

it almost feels like the guy who owns the football field, who gave us the kit to play with,  and encouraged us all to play football and get good at it, has decided its all  to much trouble an he's bored... wants to move on to swimming or something... and instead of saying i need to find someone else to provide the field  is going to lock us all out...

well hell thats just mean... :bandit:

#559
Taboo

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Pretty sure I saw the galaxy rebuilding.

Which version did you guys watch?

#560
Iakus

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ddraigcoch123 wrote...

yep 'looking at a wasteland' is what he says... but tell me this... if you create a product that has a pretty decent following of fans/consumers who would be more than willing to buy another game (if it was in the true spirit of ME) why the heck would you be so determined to kill it off???

i mean if the original creators/writers are tired of it there are plenty who would be happy to take their place...

it almost feels like the guy who owns the football field, who gave us the kit to play with,  and encouraged us all to play football and get good at it, has decided its all  to much trouble an he's bored... wants to move on to swimming or something... and instead of saying i need to find someone else to provide the field  is going to lock us all out...

well hell thats just mean... :bandit:


Not saying it makes sense.  Yet they gave us a product where the character dies in virtually every ending.  And the only ending that doesn't outrigght killed Shepard is left deliberately ambiguous.

Why?  It makes no frakking sense to railroad SHepard into the grave!

#561
Iakus

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Pretty sure I saw the galaxy rebuilding.

Which version did you guys watch?


The one where I genocided an allied race, killed a friend, and was rewarded by becoming a faceless torso buried in rubble.

#562
robertthebard

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iakus wrote...

ddraigcoch123 wrote...

yep 'looking at a wasteland' is what he says... but tell me this... if you create a product that has a pretty decent following of fans/consumers who would be more than willing to buy another game (if it was in the true spirit of ME) why the heck would you be so determined to kill it off???

i mean if the original creators/writers are tired of it there are plenty who would be happy to take their place...

it almost feels like the guy who owns the football field, who gave us the kit to play with,  and encouraged us all to play football and get good at it, has decided its all  to much trouble an he's bored... wants to move on to swimming or something... and instead of saying i need to find someone else to provide the field  is going to lock us all out...

well hell thats just mean... :bandit:


Not saying it makes sense.  Yet they gave us a product where the character dies in virtually every ending.  And the only ending that doesn't outrigght killed Shepard is left deliberately ambiguous.

Why?  It makes no frakking sense to railroad SHepard into the grave!

Why not?  I die in London, and honestly believe they should make it so you can import from there.

#563
devSin

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Pretty sure I saw the galaxy rebuilding.

Which version did you guys watch?

The original version. Pay attention.

#564
ddraigcoch123

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devSin wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Pretty sure I saw the galaxy rebuilding.

Which version did you guys watch?

The original version. Pay attention.


well its also the comment of the lead writer as to why there will be no more 'after' ME3... there would be no point as you would be looking at a wasteland...

and when casey hudson said.,

'Still, we wanted to give players the chance to experience an inspiring
and uplifting ending; in a story where you face a hopeless struggle for
basic survival, we see the final moments and imagery as offering victory
and hope in the context of sacrifice and reflection.'

i dont think he had played through the ending on offer... unless he thinks that a victory of hope and the chance to experience an inspiring and uplifting ending is a charred torso possibly gasping a last breath?

Modifié par ddraigcoch123, 19 juillet 2012 - 01:58 .


#565
LordJeyl

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v0rt3x22 wrote...Mass Effect has always been about Shepard's story - and many of us love Shepard - and some people even argue that Mass Effect wouldn't be the same without him.


While I certainly see Shepard's importance as the player's avatar into the Mass Effect universe, I by no means think she's the most interesting character in the game. In fact, I think one of ME3's bigger flaws in it's story department was making the game so Shepard oriented that it pushed a lot of other interesting characters down. 

The thing you've got to remember about Shepard is that she is a character who is committed from the very beginning of the first game, and nothing about her ever really changes even to the end of ME3. There's no real character development or growth outside of her interactions with the other crew mates. Heck, ME2 was pretty much all about the side characters and how they fit in with the universe.

When BioWare decided to give Shepard more focus in ME3's storyline, they introduced a couple of problems.

1. Too many new elements unique only to ME3. Regardless of Shepard's standing with the Citadel or with other alien races, she will always put Earth high on her priority list for no discernable reason. It's made worse when Anderson has to remind her that they'll need help in fighting a war against the Reapers who are out to KILL THEM ALL.

2. These story elements take away the importance of the other characters. That kid from the opening is now the most important character to Shepard because she is always haunted by him. No matter what Shepard does, no matter what Shepard gains, she always thinks back to this one pathos inducing kid. There's no emphasis on Shepard's concern for her love interest, her crew or anything else that's mattered over the past three games because the game wants you to believe this kid is what should be the focus. There's just no coherent story telling when you go from alien lesbian sex scene and than immediately to Shepard chasing a child alone in the woods. You would think that when the story is getting close to being finished that these dreams would focus on more imporant elements, LIKE YOUR CLOSEST FRIENDS AND LOVED ONES!

3. Comes off as a "Shepard only" game. Regardless of whether your team mates live or die on the Harbinger charge, the fact remains that Shepard is left to complete the story all on her own. In the previous Mass Effect games, your team mates were always there with you in fighting the good fight. When an important decision needed to be made, they were there to offer input. This was important because the last two Mass Effect games were good at emphasising how everyone has a role to play in this universe, not just Shepard. Makes sense considering it is your team mates that actually grow and developed the most as characters during the trilogy. If the game says in the end that your team mates have no say in the end, what good were they to begin with? Compare that with the final climactic fight with the Arch Demon in Dragon Age.

#566
garrusfan1

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Alright Patrick weekes said he did survive and I believe him since he gave the fact that Casey and that other one wrote the endings themselves. So for that I trust him more than the others. So shep did survive and the guy who said he may not have is full of S***.

#567
AresKeith

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garrusfan1 wrote...

Alright Patrick weekes said he did survive and I believe him since he gave the fact that Casey and that other one wrote the endings themselves. So for that I trust him more than the others. So shep did survive and the guy who said he may not have is full of S***.


thats why I say the whole game is out of touch with Bioware if the devs can't even decide if someone lives or dies by a random scene

#568
devSin

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Chris Priestly wrote...

You assume Shepard survived. That could have just been a final breath before he/she died.


Modifié par devSin, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:37 .


#569
Iakus

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garrusfan1 wrote...

Alright Patrick weekes said he did survive and I believe him since he gave the fact that Casey and that other one wrote the endings themselves. So for that I trust him more than the others. So shep did survive and the guy who said he may not have is full of S***.


It still doesn't alter the fact that the scene is confusing, awful, and provides neither clarity nor closure, as EC was supposed to.

#570
Phydeaux314

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The EC was supposed to clarify their intent behind the ending and offer closure. It largely succeeded on the first and was mixed bag on the second.

The explicit "what happens here is up to you" is something I'm actually okay with. Hell, we've been co-telling the story of Shepard for the first three games. Now it's entirely our tale, and I like that. It leaves the world open - or closed - to each and every one of us.

#571
The Twilight God

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Pitznik wrote...

This is your headcanon. We do not even know if Normandy left the Local Cluster. We have no idea how badly are Relays damaged and how long it will take to fix them. You choose to see it the way you described, that is your Shepard and your game, you have the right to do so. Hell, if the last scene would be Shepard hugging Tali, you could imagine a rock falling on them second after the fade to black. Just don't force it as the direct conclusion of what we see in the game, because it is not.


Of course it is. It's the only valid conclusion given what occurs.
 
You want your happy ending and your own imagination is enough for you. That's cool. 

How is it the favourite ending of most of the players who voted in various ending polls then? Maybe it is not a fool's choice then, maybe it is a fool who can't see what many other people see?


See what exactly?

That's right. The geth and EDI dead and no friendly reapers to fix everything. And no benefit to make up for that sacrifice. Destroy is definitely the only valid ending as Shepard has no reason to trust the reapers, but regardless it is the stupidiest ending choice from a METAGAMING headcanoning standpoint.

It's funny that the same people claiming headcanon is acceptable always pick Destroy for the "hope". Who needs hope if players are just gonna make up whatever they want the ending to be? There is more "hope" in Control than Destroy. At least robo shep and make his reaper thralls make him an avatar body.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:46 .


#572
The Twilight God

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Taboo-XX wrote...

The point is to show that Shepard is alive. Basic conventions of story telling tell you this.

"If it is shown, it has purpose."

The entire point is that Shepard WILL be rescued, but how and by whom is up to you.

The narrative ends by telling you that Shepard is ALIVE AND CAPABLE OF BEING RESCUED.


Shepard being alive or dead doesn't really matter. If ME3 is it, it's that. As a player the Destroy ending has no greater payoff than Control or Synthesis. Only difference is the galaxy is in a much better place with Control and Synthesis. If biowares want him dead, have him die in all endings and take the arbitrary geth/EDI deaths out. This way all endings are more equalized and Destroy isn't the redheaded step-child.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:46 .


#573
Iakus

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The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard being alive or dead doesn't really matter. If ME3 is it, it's that. As a player the Destroy ending has no greater payoff than Control or Synthesis. Only difference is the galaxy is in a much better place with Control and Synthesis. If biowares want him dead, have him die in all endings and take the arbitrary geth/EDI deaths out. This way all endings are more equalized and Destroy isn't the redheaded step-child.


I'd say if there is "no canon", it shouldn't matter to Bioware if Shepard lives or dies, thus in endings where Shepard lives, it should be quite clear that Shepard lives and is rescued/escapes the Citadef and we get to see it happening.  It's the closing moments of the game, the time for questions has passed!

#574
wright1978

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Taboo-XX wrote...

You're ignoring dramatic conventions in favor of emotional nonsense.

The scene is pretty bad, but it exists for the sole purpose of containing the open ended nature that Bioware originally wanted, and giving the fans a reunion.

It is there solely to tell you that Shepard survives and will be rescued.

Talking with a producer for twenty minutes might help. You're supposed to discuss what happens next with your friends, making it unique to you.

This is entire ****ing point.


No the whole point is for it to be deliberately ambigious. Sure i can imagine Shep being rescued but that doesn't mean i'm not extremely angry that they expanded/clarified Shep's fate in other endings, a ton of other things in endings and yet they couldn't be bothered to expand and integrate the Shep lives scenario into the high EMS destroy ending.

Modifié par wright1978, 19 juillet 2012 - 09:30 .


#575
Pitznik

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The Twilight God wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

This is your headcanon. We do not even know if Normandy left the Local Cluster. We have no idea how badly are Relays damaged and how long it will take to fix them. You choose to see it the way you described, that is your Shepard and your game, you have the right to do so. Hell, if the last scene would be Shepard hugging Tali, you could imagine a rock falling on them second after the fade to black. Just don't force it as the direct conclusion of what we see in the game, because it is not.


Of course it is. It's the only valid conclusion given what occurs.
 
You want your happy ending and your own imagination is enough for you. That's cool.

How is that a valid conclusion, exactly? You have no way to prove that Relays are impossible to repair, you have no way to prove that Normandy left the local cluster, all you're left with is interpretation. Ending is open both for your interpretation and mine, in fact given what we see in the ending mine looks more likely. You say with relays destroyed they can't reunite - why do you think they left through the Relay? Why do you think it takes centuries to fix the Relays? Why do you think dextros will starve? While it is all possible, both interpretations are equally valid. You dismiss mine as headcanon, but at the same time you force your headcanon as "the only valid conclusion".

The Twilight God wrote...

Pitznik wrote...
How is it the favourite ending of most of the players who voted in various ending polls then? Maybe it is not a fool's choice then, maybe it is a fool who can't see what many other people see?


See what exactly?

That's right. The geth and EDI dead and no friendly reapers to fix everything. And no benefit to make up for that sacrifice. Destroy is definitely the only valid ending as Shepard has no reason to trust the reapers, but regardless it is the stupidiest ending choice from a METAGAMING headcanoning standpoint.

Benefits: Shepard is alive. Reapers are no more. - that is what you can't see, and that is what we tried to achieve.
Cons: fixing Relays is the most difficult of all endings, still not impossible. EDI's dead, but what is one life compared to the galaxy. Geth are dead (IF they weren't before), what can be either a good thing, or a bad thing, still it is one race compared to the rest of the galaxy. One race who was an accomplice to the Reaper, once not willingly, once willingly. I don't think Shepard can forget dragon's teeth so easily as you do.

Modifié par Pitznik, 19 juillet 2012 - 09:58 .