760 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

Taboo-XX wrote...It's called cross cutting devSin. For the last ****ing time.The point is to create an emotional response.

I'm sorry taboo, you know I have all the possible respect for you but right now you are believing what you want to believe

[vallore]

Here’s a thought. I believe the actual circumstances personally faced by Shepard in ME1 or ME2 were not particularly easier compared with those she faces on ME3.

Facing an avatar of Sovereign and getting away? “Wow!” Dying, returning and then going into the collector base with a small team and getting everyone out? “Wow!” again. Being hit by a beam, shooting TIM (or convincing him to shoot himself)? That’s impressive, but not above the level of danger of the previous high points of the other games. All survivable. BUT after that it goes downhill;

Capitulating to the catalyst faulty logic without mounting a contra-argumentation?

That’s bad; where was the Shepard I knew never to give up without a fight, verbal or otherwise?

Being forced to go along with her given choices or lose the game?

Bad, bad, idea; Does anyone at Bioware actually thinks that doing what the story main opponent offers you is remotely as satisfying as conquering victory by yourself?

And last, but not least, “Shepard must die.” Not as consequence of a direct choice made by the player, (eg. Giving Shepard’s life to save Anderson, or a team member). Or as the indirect consequence of your long term choices, (Wrex is dead? Too bad, he cannot appear to drag you out from the rubble; if he were alive he would be looking for you. Or, did you gave a last speech focusing on the need for everyone to be ready to sacrifice himself? Well you got what you asked for; your crew thinks you are dead and honour you.

But:

What if you gave your last speech focusing on the bounds of friendship? What if in your goodbyes you focused in not in farewells but on giving them courage and hope to see them on the other side? What if you are playing a survivor Shepard, (you know, one of the basic archetypes Bioware explicitly created for us to play?) Well, then, what is there, at the ending, that makes Destroy necessarily result in a dead Shepard?

Nothing. And Bioware acknowledges this.

But if survival is supposed to occur, why leave it all in the realm of speculation? This is supposed Shepard’s last adventure and the player who, for whatever reason, felt, destroy was the “best” choice available is rewarded not with closure but speculations galore.

If Shepard survives, why not show her face awakening in the rubble? In what way would that diminish the impact of the ending? Why not go a step further and show her being rescued, or awakening in a hospital bed, LI around, or a friend. In what way would that constrain the ability to headcanon Shepard’s future?


Still want her dead? Ok, she died of complications due to septic conditions on the field hospital. She just won’t die
alone.

Want her to survive? Well you are in luck. She will recover, her friends at her side.

What she will do after that?

Whatever you want, really. But the point is, Shepard’s immediate survival would be seen and not merely deducted. Supposedly, this is the last of Shepard’s adventures, the player deserves more than a simple generic torso taking a breath, or an intuitive moment from her LI. The player deserves closure, not a cliff-hanger that leads to nothing.

Modifié par vallore, 19 juillet 2012 - 10:35 .

[dorktainian]

considering ME3 is the final adventure of Shep, it would make sense to show shep being reunited with his crewmates and LI. (if you picked the destroy option that is - or in other words if you picked the only realistic option) Ambiguity is a bad thing here.

Yeah he might not be in ME4, but it would still leave a satisfaction that somehow he survived and is alive with Garrus on some desert island drinking cocktails.

Not much to ask is it?

[3DandBeyond]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Pretty sure I saw the galaxy rebuilding.

Which version did you guys watch?

We were referring to an interview with Mac Walters in which he is talking about DLC for ME3 and he says no post ending DLC because it's a wasteland.

The link is in a post.

[Archonsg]

Well, it is too bad that they said what they said at this point of time knowing full well that the issue is dead and people want to move on and for most, the little gesture they gave with the ECDLC is enough to change the perception for most.





Me, I still think that Bioware missed, no, squandered their chance to give the series the ending it deserves with the "FU!" fourth "Refusal Option". I know many keep saying that the Reapers were impossible to beat but we know that is not entirely true. They can't be beat only because they did not write a way for Shepard and crew to beat them.





It is as simple as that.





So, imagine if instead of an "FU!" with Refusal, the fame actually show you all the choices you made since ME1, scene of the Rachni Queen over fleet net via that Asari you met in ME2, (you killed the Queen, you die) telling everyone that she understands her Race is doomed, that the Reaper corruption will just spread and take all her children, but she can sing one last song, so that the galaxy will remember them, perhaps in a kinder light, and she sings and her song breaks the reaper's control of ALL Rachni, The. Queen tells everyone that she cannot hold the song for long but will use her Children to give other children of tge galaxy to be free of the yellow note of the reapers. And thus the Rachni all turn against the reapers. Especially the ones inside Reapers capital ships, ravagers, harvesters, drones all start to fight from the inside.





I cannot remember if it was Mac Walters who said that the Rachni would play a pivotal role, isn't this better then the measly EMS points contribution they had in ME3?





The Reapers are only unbeatable because "artistic vision" made them so.

[agrael92]

 To me that hope would have been a lot, and indeed it made a bit hard not choosing Destroy in the EC.

[The Twilight God]

Pitznik wrote...

How is that a valid conclusion, exactly? You have no way to prove that Relays are impossible to repair, you have no way to prove that Normandy left the local cluster, all you're left with is interpretation. Ending is open both for your interpretation and mine, in fact given what we see in the ending mine looks more likely. You say with relays destroyed they can't reunite - why do you think they left through the Relay? Why do you think it takes centuries to fix the Relays? Why do you think dextros will starve? While it is all possible, both interpretations are equally valid. You dismiss mine as headcanon, but at the same time you force your headcanon as "the only valid conclusion".

Impossible to repair? Never said that. That fact that they landed on a garden world tells me they aren't in the local cluster. Problem with the mysterious garden world is that it makes no sense locacl cluster or otherwise. We have humans colonizing Eden Prime, Benning, Terra Nova and even starting the process of terraforming other worlds, but don't touch a garden world in their own cluster?  A world that's supposedly a hop and a skip away via FTL?

As far as relays are concerned nobody knows how they work, much less how to repair them. This has been established and nothing has come forward to my knowledge to say anything has changed. Given the state of the various planets (no infrastructure, disease, cut off, starving turians/quarians) the reconstruction is going to take awhile. First they have to do the research, but they don't have any labs. Then they have the FTL to the other relays which will take years or decades. Sure, in the future everything will be back to normal (which the EC slides show), but for the forseeable future things are going to be a mess. Shepard will probably never see his crew again.

This is why I hate that the knocked the Normandy into some random world far out there somewhere. It's completely unnecessary and immersion breaking. It would be better if Joker tried to go back and ended up having to land in the countryside on earth. Maybe some undeveloped coastline. Then the  crew can awalk outside, see a dead reaper in the ocean while taking in the sunrise. Message: It's a bright new day. And this earth sunrise becomes a symbol of what you are fighting for vs. some random planet untouched by the reapers. Oh, and people who romance Jack or Miranda can have them at the memorial wall scene. 

Pitznik wrote...

Benefits: Shepard is alive. Reapers are no more. - that is what you can't see, and that is what we tried to achieve.
Cons: fixing Relays is the most difficult of all endings, still not impossible. EDI's dead, but what is one life compared to the galaxy. Geth are dead (IF they weren't before), what can be either a good thing, or a bad thing, still it is one race compared to the rest of the galaxy. One race who was an accomplice to the Reaper, once not willingly, once willingly. I don't think Shepard can forget dragon's teeth so easily as you do.

Shepard is alive in Control and Synthesis too (especially Control). Don't underestimate the power of headcanon as that is apparently the rule now. Furthermore, his ultimate survival isn't validated. This is the last ME game. So the last you see him is in a pile of rubble with synthetic implants fubar(?). Is he a blind quadra-amputee with brain damage? That's not surviving. That's nothing. The End. The player gets no payoff. Without a reunion with crew/LI the player doesn't actually get anything tangible to compensate for what they must sacrifice. The game's ending in regard to shepard is fundamentally the same as the other two.

Reapers no more is actually a downside. They can fix the relays and their FTL is WAY faster than ours. Having no relay (Arrival) only slowed them down a few months. If Reapers across the galaxy are doing coordinated repairs we'll be up and running in about a year.

Lets recap:

Destroy Pros: peace?
Control and Synthesis Pros: Utopia/Reaper defenders, peace, everyone lives, reaper healpers

Destroy Cons: You have to kill your friend EDI. You have to kill Geth allies. Everyone cut off ("dark ages")
Control and Synthesis Cons: None

As I said before, Shep can be dead or alive in any ending. You have to headcanon shep lmaking out of the rubble alive in destroy so it's no more or less valid than headcanonning control shep making an avatar body or synthesis shep catching out of a mutated techno-plant fully grown 2 weeks later.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 19 juillet 2012 - 01:28 .

[Pitznik]

Archonsg wrote...

So, imagine if instead of an "FU!" with Refusal, the fame actually show you all the choices you made since ME1, scene of the Rachni Queen over fleet net via that Asari you met in ME2, (you killed the Queen, you die) telling everyone that she understands her Race is doomed, that the Reaper corruption will just spread and take all her children, but she can sing one last song, so that the galaxy will remember them, perhaps in a kinder light, and she sings and her song breaks the reaper's control of ALL Rachni, The. Queen tells everyone that she cannot hold the song for long but will use her Children to give other children of tge galaxy to be free of the yellow note of the reapers. And thus the Rachni all turn against the reapers. Especially the ones inside Reapers capital ships, ravagers, harvesters, drones all start to fight from the inside.

1. DEM
2. Winning or losing based on one secondary decision from two games before?
3. Harvesters aren't rachni.

I'm sorry, but I prefer what we have than this idea. Rachni have way too small part in ME trilogy to be deciding factor.

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Do you honestly believe Shepard is going to lie there and wait for the Normandy crew to rescue him?

"Surprise! I wasn't dead after all! Now help me up, my legs have rotted off!"

"Hello?  Anybody out there?  I think I need medical attention..."

Yes to which Shepard hears nothing but the wind answer back.

Let's get semi-factual here.  There's a debate as to where Shepard is though it looks like concrete (not found on the citadel), but whatever.

Say it's Shepard on Earth.  Well, that's an amazing feat in and of itself.  Since the area looks pretty badly beat up and in the epilogue we didn't see that many (husk dies scene) people running around and if they were out there, no doubt they too are injured from the falling debris then this is a problem.  Shepard must have taken a pretty bad tumble.  Shepard can barely manage a gasp.  Shepard was already severely injured and minutes even are of the essence, especially since "even you are part synthetic".  I seem to remember Shepard's face looked like it was a lot synthetic.  Shepard isn't just lying on top of debris but is under debris.  Shepard doesn't see to be likely to be able to shout anything at all.  Then you get to the mechanics of Shepard falling that far.  Ok, from space.  Well, sounds like a fun trip with no protection. 

Say it's Shepard on the Citadel.  Wherever Shepard is is pretty badly messed up.  Things went boom.  There weren't a lot of live people (none) running around when Shepard got there.  Anderson is dead and somehow they know this.  Shepard was with Anderson.  No one knows where the torso might be nor even thinks Shepard is alive, save for one person.  No one knew about the kid's family room where Shepard and the kid talked-if that's where the torso is.  And getting there might be a real trick, since "walls re-aligned".   If people thought Shepard had survived, how would they even know to look in this place and certainly many other areas of the citadel are pretty badly messed up but this area would especially be significantly damaged.  Time would be of the essence.

What the whole scene lacks is not just a reunion though that is integral to the "lore" of ME.  The hero Shepard is brought home-that is a core tenet of ME.  That has absolutely always been a core tenet of ME, until someone decided to go all theoretical and explore their inner depressed need for ego gratification.  "Look at what I can write."

But again it isn't just about that.  The amount of head canon that must be used to get from seeing the torso to Shepard alive and with friends is off the chart, because you must head canon the whole context of the scene.

You must imagine:
What the kid meant by the phrase "even you are partly synthetic"-is Shepard in pieces after the tube explosion hits?
An already severely injured Shepard survived a blast that with lower EMS unrelated to the crucible, kills him/her.  How did Shepard survive this explosion?  How can Shepard survive the wait to be rescued?  We see a torso and a gasp-there's zero context that this part of Shepard can do anything to help him/herself at all.
Where is Torso Shepard?  The explosion took place in the secret playroom of the catalyst which if destroyed by the explosion is either full of debris or flung Shepard and debris to Earth causing even more head canon to explain how this could happen and how the torso could survive.
Why were people sure Anderson had died and sure Shepard had too but a friend or LI doesn't believe this?  I mean  Liara did have some "psychic" connection at least, but Garrus?  Maybe hope and maybe the need to find a body at least.  But Anderson is just debris.
Where is the Normandy exactly?  Hackett says get to the rendezvous point.  I don't think that was it.  Was it through a relay?  Or did the shockwave throw them out of the system.  The planet doesn't look like any planet within the Sol system except for Earth as far as topography.  And it isn't Earth.  So it isn't in the Sol system.  If it isn't, ruh roh.  The Charon relay looks kind of bad, so good luck getting back to the torso quickly. 
So, because of the last Shepard must be found by others.  Which rubble pile do they look in first for survivors?  On Earth, there's a hell of a lot of rubble piles so they are looking for survivors in a lot of places.  The torso requires luck, a lot of luck, so get your imaginations in gear.
A great many people also are "partly synthetic" so are there a lot of torsos laying around or is torso status only for the hero of 3 stories?
Without a lot of tech available-we have no idea what works and what doesn't work, what synthetics have been destroyed completely.  The relays were not synthetic life and some have suffered extensive damage, so it's logical that other tech has suffered as well.  Imagine bunnies and rainbows though because the torso needs you!

Contrast this with all the head canoning that must be done for the other endings-all that must be head canoned is how stupid and amoral Shepard must become in order to make the other 2 choices (well Destroy as well) and then what comes after god Shepard or the Stepford Reapers take over the galaxy.  That head canon is pretty awful because the choices are dumb and even the writers didn't imagine what the ramifications of those choices would necessarily be.  Immortality with reproduction=overpopulation and eventual conflict/some way needed for people to die.  Reaper god and reaper police=imagine the possibilities of reapers living and working near you.

But all that head canoning is for what comes AFTER we know the fate of Shepard and even the current galaxy.

In short:

Head canon needed for a live Shepard must be for all that happens before, during, and after the torso is found.
Head canon needed for a dead Shepard doesn't have to occur for anything.  Head canon can be used to gain some context of what happens after we see the fate of Shepard and the galaxy.

I should be given the context of the torso scene and the outcome of the game.  Since the torso scene leads to one outcome of the game and does not complete that outcome, the game remains unfinished and I paid for a finished game.  I was told it had endings and a torso in rubble is not an ending.  It is the beginning of speculation and finishing it was the job of the devs, not mine.

[Pitznik]

The Twilight God wrote...

Impossible to repair? Never said that. That fact that they landed on a garden world tells me they aren't in the local cluster. Problem with the mysterious garden world is that it makes no sense locacl cluster or otherwise. We have humans colonizing Eden Prime, Benning, Terra Nova and even starting the process of terraforming other worlds, but don't touch a garden world in their own cluster?  A world that's supposedly a hop and a skip away via FTL?

It might as well be a colonized world. They could land in the wilderness. In fact finding completely empty garden world just land on (why?) is very unlikely. That whole landing scene is stupid, and its only point was to show crew surviving I think. But it can be a world in the local cluster - Reorte in this thread pointed out that there are stars "nearby" (1 day of flight for FTL) that have planets, so it could be one of them, terraformed somewhat. Not out of the question.

The Twilight God wrote...

As far as relays are concerned nobody knows how they work, much less how to repair them. This has been established and nothing has come forward to my knowledge to say anything has changed. Given the state of the various planets (no infrastructure, disease, cut off, starving turians/quarians) the reconstruction is going to take awhile. First they have to do the research, but they don't have any labs. Then they have the FTL to the other relays which will take years or decades. Sure, in the future everything will be back to normal (which the EC slides show), but for the forseeable future things are going to be a mess. Shepard will probably never see his crew again.

They have plenty of labs, Earth isn't utterly destroyed. Also they do not have to FTL to other relays, most of the relays will be repaired by inhabitants of the system relay was in - this will be impossible for some relays, but main ones in turian or salarian home systems would be probably repaired much faster than Charon relay.

The Twilight God wrote...
This is why I hate that the knocked the Normandy into some random world far out there somewhere. It's completely unnecessary and immersion breaking. It would be better if Joker tried to go back and ended up having to land in the countryside on earth. Maybe some undeveloped coastline. Then the  crew can awalk outside, see a dead reaper in the ocean while taking in the sunrise. Message: It's a bright new day. And this earth sunrise becomes a symbol of what you are fighting for vs. some random planet untouched by the reapers.

Totally agreed. We don't know where they are, we don't know why they are there, we don't know why they aren't with the rest of the Sword. Really stupid, pointless scene. If it has some artistic message, I don't get it.

The Twilight God wrote...
Shepard is alive in Control and Synthesis too (especially Control). Don't underestimate the power of headcanon as that is apparently the rule now. Furthermore, his ultimate survival isn't validated. This is the last ME game. So the last you see him is in a pile of rubble. That's not surviving. That's nothing. The End. The player gets no payoff. Without a reunion with crew/LI the player doesn't actually get anything tangible to compensate for what they must sacrifice. The game's ending in regard to shepard is fundamentally the same as the other two.

He's not really alive in Control, he's not Shepard anymore, more like a Shepbringer or Commander Reapard, not the same. By alive I meant having a possible future as a human being, with LI and stuff. Much nicer than Reaper God in space. I don't really know about Synthesis, isn't he as dead as possible there?

Also, again: destroy ends with him being alive. Not "probably alive" but just alive. What happens next isn't said, so it can be anything, death, rescue

The Twilight God wrote...
Reapers no more is actually a downside. They can fix the relays and their FTL is WAY faster than ours. Having no relay (Arrival) only slowed them down a few months. If Reapers across the galaxy are doing coordinated repairs we'll be up and running in about a year.

Yeah I mentioned that, still Reapers are a potential threat and only destroy can really eliminate them. And that was the point from the beginning, taken literally.

The Twilight God wrote...
As I said before, Shep can be dead or alive in any ending. You have to headcanon shep lmaking out of the rubble alive in destroy so it's no more or less valid than headcanonning control shep making an avatar body or synthesis shep catching out of a mutated techno-plant fully grown 2 weeks later.

Difference being, I don't have to add anything new to the story for Shepard to be alive in destroy, because he is. I don't have to headcanon anything, he can stay there forever eternally breathing under the rubble, neither rescued or dead For me it is important, taking story as it is, without adding any new elements.

Modifié par Pitznik, 19 juillet 2012 - 02:03 .

[crimzontearz]

In before comparisons with the dark knight rises



Boy this is gonna be fun, take goddamn notes BiowEAre

[Pitznik]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Let's get semi-factual here.  There's a debate as to where Shepard is though it looks like concrete (not found on the citadel), but whatever.

Looks like =/= is.

3DandBeyond wrote...
Say it's Shepard on the Citadel.  Wherever Shepard is is pretty badly messed up.  Things went boom.  There weren't a lot of live people (none) running around when Shepard got there.  Anderson is dead and somehow they know this.  Shepard was with Anderson.  No one knows where the torso might be nor even thinks Shepard is alive, save for one person.  No one knew about the kid's family room where Shepard and the kid talked-if that's where the torso is.  And getting there might be a real trick, since "walls re-aligned".   If people thought Shepard had survived, how would they even know to look in this place and certainly many other areas of the citadel are pretty badly messed up but this area would especially be significantly damaged.  Time would be of the essence.

His communicator worked just fine before the kid scene, it might still work. Not so hard to send an SOS signal.

3DandBeyond wrote...
What the kid meant by the phrase "even you are partly synthetic"-is Shepard in pieces after the tube explosion hits?
An already severely injured Shepard survived a blast that with lower EMS unrelated to the crucible, kills him/her.  How did Shepard survive this explosion?  How can Shepard survive the wait to be rescued?  We see a torso and a gasp-there's zero context that this part of Shepard can do anything to help him/herself at all.

Is Shepard a synthetic AI? No, he's not. Low EMS red beam affects all technology, including Shepard's implants. High EMS red beam affects only synthetic intelligence, and apparently Reapers. Does not affect regular technology. So it doesn't affect Shepard.

3DandBeyond wrote...
Where is the Normandy exactly?  Hackett says get to the rendezvous point.  I don't think that was it.  Was it through a relay?  Or did the shockwave throw them out of the system.  The planet doesn't look like any planet within the Sol system except for Earth as far as topography.  And it isn't Earth.  So it isn't in the Sol system.  If it isn't, ruh roh.  The Charon relay looks kind of bad, so good luck getting back to the torso quickly. 

There are more systems in FTL range from Sol system. Some of them have planets. Not every star system is on the galaxy map in ME.

3DandBeyond wrote...
The relays were not synthetic life and some have suffered extensive damage, so it's logical that other tech has suffered as well.

That is not logical. Relay served as conductors for the Crucible energy beam, as shown in the cinematic. That's not like any other technology.

Overall, when you have any choice, you assume the absolute worst. That way indeed Shepard's chances for continued survival look bleak. He would die in ME1's finale when looking at things that way. Still, it is not real life but a story. In stories, a scene of character presumed dead turning out to be alive has a meaning.

[d-boy15]

crimzontearz wrote...

In before comparisons with the dark knight rises



Boy this is gonna be fun, take goddamn notes BiowEAre

yep, Nolan show how to conclude an epic trilogy.

[robertthebard]

Archonsg wrote...

Well, it is too bad that they said what they said at this point of time knowing full well that the issue is dead and people want to move on and for most, the little gesture they gave with the ECDLC is enough to change the perception for most.





Me, I still think that Bioware missed, no, squandered their chance to give the series the ending it deserves with the "FU!" fourth "Refusal Option". I know many keep saying that the Reapers were impossible to beat but we know that is not entirely true. They can't be beat only because they did not write a way for Shepard and crew to beat them.





It is as simple as that.





So, imagine if instead of an "FU!" with Refusal, the fame actually show you all the choices you made since ME1, scene of the Rachni Queen over fleet net via that Asari you met in ME2, (you killed the Queen, you die) telling everyone that she understands her Race is doomed, that the Reaper corruption will just spread and take all her children, but she can sing one last song, so that the galaxy will remember them, perhaps in a kinder light, and she sings and her song breaks the reaper's control of ALL Rachni, The. Queen tells everyone that she cannot hold the song for long but will use her Children to give other children of tge galaxy to be free of the yellow note of the reapers. And thus the Rachni all turn against the reapers. Especially the ones inside Reapers capital ships, ravagers, harvesters, drones all start to fight from the inside.





I cannot remember if it was Mac Walters who said that the Rachni would play a pivotal role, isn't this better then the measly EMS points contribution they had in ME3?





The Reapers are only unbeatable because "artistic vision" made them so.

So lay out your plan.  Explain how you're going to defend systems that are producing assets that you need to continue to fight a prolonged conflict, at least a century of war, probably longer.  Lay out how you're going to compensate for heavy casualties.  You do not have infinite resources after all.  In the push to the beam, on two subsequent play throughs, I have lost either 50% or 75% of Hammer.  This is just one unit, in one battle, on one planet.  We don't know for sure what percentage of the other units made it to where they were supposed to be.  I'll be generous though, and figure we only lost 25% of our total assets.  We still haven't taken Earth.  So lay out your strategy, and explain where reinforcements are going to come from.  If you can lay out something believable to the setting, I'll cosign it.  If not, if you're just going to present another "I win button", then don't bother.

[3DandBeyond]

My comments in bold and italicized:

Pitznik wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
Say it's Shepard on the Citadel.  Wherever Shepard is is pretty badly messed up.  Things went boom.  There weren't a lot of live people (none) running around when Shepard got there.  Anderson is dead and somehow they know this.  Shepard was with Anderson.  No one knows where the torso might be nor even thinks Shepard is alive, save for one person.  No one knew about the kid's family room where Shepard and the kid talked-if that's where the torso is.  And getting there might be a real trick, since "walls re-aligned".   If people thought Shepard had survived, how would they even know to look in this place and certainly many other areas of the citadel are pretty badly messed up but this area would especially be significantly damaged.  Time would be of the essence.

His communicator worked just fine before the kid scene, it might still work. Not so hard to send an SOS signal.

Head canon.  My point exactly.  It may or may not work so that's pure head canon.

Pitznik wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
What the kid meant by the phrase "even you are partly synthetic"-is Shepard in pieces after the tube explosion hits?
An already severely injured Shepard survived a blast that with lower EMS unrelated to the crucible, kills him/her.  How did Shepard survive this explosion?  How can Shepard survive the wait to be rescued?  We see a torso and a gasp-there's zero context that this part of Shepard can do anything to help him/herself at all.

Is Shepard a synthetic AI? No, he's not. Low EMS red beam affects all technology, including Shepard's implants. High EMS red beam affects only synthetic intelligence, and apparently Reapers. Does not affect regular technology. So it doesn't affect Shepard.

I think you said this before and have yet to prove this-nowhere does the kid say it only destroys or affects reaper stuff.  Nor does the kid say it only affects synthetic intelligence.  The writers have not explained why the kid says to Shepard, "even you are part synthetic."  Nor have you.  I have high EMS and there is no differentiation.  The kid
says it will not discriminate.  So, the meaning as to Shepard must be imagined.  Head canon.  Again, my point exactly.  Not explained.

Pitznik wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
Where is the Normandy exactly?  Hackett says get to the rendezvous point.  I don't think that was it.  Was it through a relay?  Or did the shockwave throw them out of the system.  The planet doesn't look like any planet within the Sol system except for Earth as far as topography.  And it isn't Earth.  So it isn't in the Sol system.  If it isn't, ruh roh.  The Charon relay looks kind of bad, so good luck getting back to the torso quickly. 

There are more systems in FTL range from Sol system. Some of them have planets. Not every star system is on the galaxy map in ME.

Ok, I have to get basic here.  It will take a long time to get from any other system.  A long time, but how long we don't know and have to imagine it.  We have no idea how far the Normandy is from where the torso is, we are not told, not given context.  It must be imagined.  Head canon.  My point exactly.

Pitznik wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
The relays were not synthetic life and some have suffered extensive damage, so it's logical that other tech has suffered as well.

That is not logical. Relay served as conductors for the Crucible energy beam, as shown in the cinematic. That's not like any other technology.

Overall, when you have any choice, you assume the absolute worst. That way indeed Shepard's chances for continued survival look bleak. He would die in ME1's finale when looking at things that way. Still, it is not real life but a story. In stories, a scene of character presumed dead turning out to be alive has a meaning.

No, I don't assume the worst.  I can form no single logical cohesive context for Shepard's torso's plight and outcome.  I can come up with many meanings, good and bad, positive and depressing and that is the problem, not some great reason for ambiguity.  Speculation for all.  The kid indicates that much might be damaged, more than just synthetic life-the relays are, he indicates Shepard might me.  Other people also have synthetic implants.  We have no real idea of just what destroy will do and how limited it is. Zero.  It is head canon.

I have said, I imagine positive things, Shepard alive, and that's all well and good, but I damn well desire the writers finish the freaking story.  Nowhere else in the series has head canon become a major necessity except here and that in my opinion is unacceptable.  You have what you want and I'm great with that, but pardon me if I state I paid for a finished story, not head canon and speculation for all.

A majority of those that spoke up about the original endings did so because it was speculation for all, well there still is and I say it's not right.

You actually made my point in many places here that it is head canon.  That's not an ending.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:26 .

[Iakus]

crimzontearz wrote...

In before comparisons with the dark knight rises



Boy this is gonna be fun, take goddamn notes BiowEAre

Don't even have to wait for that.  Just look at "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?"

That's how you do a bittersweet ending.

[Pitznik]

3DandBeyond wrote...



Head canon.  My point exactly.  It may or may not work so that's pure head canon.

Not headcanon. He had the communicator, we know it for sure. Possibility exists. In fact, it is me who sticks to the status quo, and you who come up with a change. You ask the question: how can Shepard communicate with anyone? and I give you an answer.

3DandBeyond wrote...


I think you said this before and have yet to prove this-nowhere does the kid say it only destroys or affects reaper stuff.  Nor does the kid say it only affects synthetic intelligence.  The writers have not explained why the kid says to Shepard, "even you are part synthetic."  Nor have you.  I have high EMS and there is no differentiation.  The kid
says it will not discriminate.  So, the meaning as to Shepard must be imagined.  Head canon.  Again, my point exactly.  Not explained.

Here you are just wrong. Watch low EMS destroy, watch high EMS destroy, check for differences. Sword fleet is nearby and it is NOT destroyed by red beam, it remains functional. Same with the Normandy. Kid informs Shepard about potential outcome, and we know he does not lie - low EMS destroy.

3DandBeyond wrote...

Ok, I have to get basic here.  It will take a long time to get from any other system.  A long time, but how long we don't know and have to imagine it.  We have no idea how far the Normandy is from where the torso is, we are not told, not given context.  It must be imagined.  Head canon.  My point exactly.

I am not arguing for will surely happen, but for what can happen. Nearest from Earth system with a planet is 1 FTL speed day away. Not very far. Other ships that are not the Normandy are more likely even closer, and the first thing they will do after they see it is over is checking on the Citadel and on Earth. They are not a relay jump away, they are minutes of FTL away - see the cinematic again.

Logic and things shown in the cinematic show that saving Shepard is perfectly -possible-.

Dramatic conventions (inclusion of Shepard's breath scene, the way it is presented) show that Shepard being alive and rescuable is -intended- interpretation.

I'll repeat your statement from previous post:

3DandBeyond wrote...

Head canon needed for a live Shepard must be for all that happens before, during, and after the torso is found.
Head
canon needed for a dead Shepard doesn't have to occur for anything. 
Head canon can be used to gain some context of what happens after we see
the fate of Shepard and the galaxy.

To "kill" Shepard in high EMS destroy you have to:
- break his communicator
- send Sword fleet/Normandy through the relay, despite that: a) Relay breaks first they enter FTL, which is actually shown c) they are not shown doing the Relay jump
- disregard very common and obvious dramatic conventions and tropes

Shepard dying requires more headcannon that Shepard living.

Modifié par Pitznik, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:55 .

[Iakus]

Pitznik wrote...

To "kill" Shepard in high EMS destroy you have to:
- break his communicator
- send Sword fleet/Normandy through the relay, despite that: a) Relay breaks first they enter FTL, which is actually shown c) they are not shown doing the Relay jump
- disregard very common and obvious dramatic conventions and tropes

Shepard dying requires more headcannon that Shepard living.

-Shepard walked into a fireball (just like in other Destroy endings) and had debris fall on him/her.  Very easy to believe communicaor was damaged or destroyed.  Even easier to believe Shepard, even if alive, is incapacitated.  Because, well, that's what it looks like.
- Even with FTL, Sword Fleet is out of communication with the Sol system.  No comm buoys means reliance of light speed communication at best. That could mean hours, days, weeks of time lag.  Or more, assuming they're meeting in another system.  Sword has no way of knowing what's going on aboard the Citadel.  Unless you're suggesting Shepard has access to a QEC device in all that rubble...
-Shepard dying is a very common and obvious trope in regards to ME3's endings.  Bioware clearly wants Shepard dead, regardless of "there is no canon" claims.

Whatever Bioware intended for that scene, failed.  More so, failed to correct mistakes in EC.

[Pitznik]

iakus wrote...

-Shepard walked into a fireball (just like in other Destroy endings) and had debris fall on him/her.  Very easy to believe communicaor was damaged or destroyed.  Even easier to believe Shepard, even if alive, is incapacitated.  Because, well, that's what it looks like.

Being stuck under the rubble doesn't mean he is incapacitated. His communicator might be destroyed, or not. Not something we know, both explanations work. That is not even a necessary requirement for Shepard to be rescuable.

iakus wrote...
- Even with FTL, Sword Fleet is out of communication with the Sol system.  No comm buoys means reliance of light speed communication at best. That could mean hours, days, weeks of time lag.  Or more, assuming they're meeting in another system.  Sword has no way of knowing what's going on aboard the Citadel.  Unless you're suggesting Shepard has access to a QEC device in all that rubble...

Ok, why no comm buoys? I have to admit, I have no idea how the communication is Mass Effect was supposed to work. Is there some codex entry describing it? After Anderson/hackett molested me every other mission in ME3 I just assumed "it works, because it works".

iakus wrote...
-Shepard dying is a very common and obvious trope in regards to ME3's endings.  Bioware clearly wants Shepard dead, regardless of "there is no canon" claims.

That is not an arguement, different endings are different. I meant the whole "you think he was dead? Look here then!" thing. What would be the point of it, if not to show that Shepard is alive and has a future? It doesn't make any sense from a narrative point of view to show him survive, just so he can die 5 minutes later.

[TheRealJayDee]

iakus wrote...

Whatever Bioware intended for that scene, failed.  More so, failed to correct mistakes in EC.

Word. I'm with the sceptics/critics 100%.

[Outamyhead]

ddraigcoch123 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

iakus wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

devSin wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

There was no "some day we'll return to the stars" scene. The kid asked when he can go to the stars. I'm not saying your intepretation is impossible, but again, it was not all as bleak as you make it to be.

All I have to judge the ending by are the statements Casey and Mac made prior to release and the interviews and information released with the Final Hours app.

If there's some contradictory information that you have, by all means, share it with us.

(You're right that the Stargazer scene is not entirely for that purpose—it's more a message to the player than a story element—but the function of the statement is not that the kid is going to be traveling to the active galactic community, which doesn't exist in that scene by design.)

Info from the final hours-original intent of crucible - it would create galactic dark ages.  Info from text dump from game-stargazer scene was 10k years in the future.

Grandpa indicates that what is out there is unknown-there could be many stars, many worlds, many people-paraphrasing.  But he says it without certainty-there could be.  They originally wanted the endings to be destructive and very dark-mass relays destroyed and star systems gone.  Normandy stranded-looked like the planet with the toxic food where they found Jacob's father.  And when people got upset about it they started retconning it all on twitter, because twitter is where you go to find out what happened in your game.

Plus:  www.youtube.com/watch

Yeah no after ME3 DLC that's it since it's a wasteland.  Good luck with that.

yep 'looking at a wasteland' is what he says... but tell me this... if you create a product that has a pretty decent following of fans/consumers who would be more than willing to buy another game (if it was in the true spirit of ME) why the heck would you be so determined to kill it off???

i mean if the original creators/writers are tired of it there are plenty who would be happy to take their place...

it almost feels like the guy who owns the football field, who gave us the kit to play with,  and encouraged us all to play football and get good at it, has decided its all  to much trouble an he's bored... wants to move on to swimming or something... and instead of saying i need to find someone else to provide the field  is going to lock us all out...

well hell thats just mean...

Well Drew Karpyshyn did leave a few months into the project, while also working on Old Republic, I would leave too if I was stuck with two high profile projects due at the same time, and I'm not sure what happened with the fourth book but I think the same thing happened, Karpyshyn retires, and leaves it to the slackers to figure it out.

[The Spamming Troll]

"a little beacon of hope" is the exact opposite of how i wanted to finish ME3.

[SpamBot2000]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

"a little beacon of hope" is the exact opposite of how i wanted to finish ME3.

Vast black hole of despair?

[3DandBeyond]

Pitznik wrote...

Not headcanon. He had the communicator, we know it for sure. Possibility exists. In fact, it is me who sticks to the status quo, and you who come up with a change. You ask the question: how can Shepard communicate with anyone? and I give you an answer.

Here you are just wrong. Watch low EMS destroy, watch high EMS destroy, check for differences. Sword fleet is nearby and it is NOT destroyed by red beam, it remains functional. Same with the Normandy. Kid informs Shepard about potential outcome, and we know he does not lie - low EMS destroy.

I am not arguing for will surely happen, but for what can happen. Nearest from Earth system with a planet is 1 FTL speed day away. Not very far. Other ships that are not the Normandy are more likely even closer, and the first thing they will do after they see it is over is checking on the Citadel and on Earth. They are not a relay jump away, they are minutes of FTL away - see the cinematic again.

Logic and things shown in the cinematic show that saving Shepard is perfectly -possible-.

Shepard also had an amazing gun from nowhere that had infinite ammo and Shepard never used the "communicator" to talk with Hackett or anyone else once glow boy said what the crucible and citadel would do.   Shepard is buried under rubble and we have no idea what state s/he is in and here's a real interesting point, how often did we see Shepard in other scenes talk with other people and how consistent was it?  In at least one scene Shepard puts his/her omnitool almost in his/her mouth to communicate but that's not how s/he talks to Hackett.

Also, can Shepard talk-Shepard isn't even shown as breathing.  S/he takes one gasp.  To talk with someone you also have to have the ability to talk and a mouth.  We don't know this is even physically possible for Shepard.  Shepard had a hell of a lot of trouble talking with Hackett and could barely move and that was before being hit by the amazing exploding tube. 

We aren't shown what happened so all we can do is guess and make up stuff-just as you are doing.

You don't know the kid isn't lying-where'd you get that idea?  He has lied before and he has been doing some awful things and comes before you trying to appear innocent (as a kid which he is not).  He has every reason to lie-he needs Shepard to make his new solution work.

I have high EMS-nowhere does the kid say that destroy will only destroy reaper tech or things with reaper code.  Please explain to me why this (in your opinion) truthful kid would tell Shepard, "even you are part synthetic" and what that means.  And please quote where in a high EMS destroy it says anything about leaving other tech alone.  It says a lot of stupid things including, "there will be losses but no more than you have already sustained" (paraphrasing).  What does that mean?  If EDI and the geth are destroyed those are additional losses.  The kid says, "the technology you rely on will be affected".  He also says, "others will be destroyed as well.  The crucible will not discriminate."

Shepard was in bad shape on the citadel.  Shepard is likely very seriously injured.  No one knows (not even psychic LI) if Shepard is alive and for sure they don't know where Shepard is.  Shepard very likely (given the state Shepard was in-the bleeding, the lapses into unconsciousness) near death or even more badly hurt and with a lot of crap on top of him/her that's kind of heavy.  Shepard doesn't have a day or days and that's if the Normandy can get there in time and can find where there is and can get the torso to help in time.

These are all reasons as to why we need context and we need to know what a lot of this meant.  It's ambiguous.  Our discussions prove that.  You see it one way and I can see it several ways.  I have no problem with imagining what happens after Shepard is picked up out of that rubble, but Shepard needs to be up out of it and needs to be respected and even honored, especially by the devs that owe Shepard a real debt of gratitude.  Yeah they created Shepard, but it is the love of Shepard that has kept ME going.  One Marine said he actually made the face of Shepard look exactly like himself and he thought it was great to be able to be the hero in these games.  What does he see with that torso in the rubble?  He sees himself.  He sees that Bioware thinks Shepard and he are garbage.  The ending is garbage.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

In my ending, Doctor Who saves Shepard and they venture off to the very first cycle and try to stop the reapers before they are created. Dohohohoho.