760 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

squee365 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

But don't you know? We are dumb for not understanding art

No you're dumb for treating it as such and using the "art" argument. Even if you mean it ironically. Stop it. 

 
Irony≠sarcasm

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

We could put the disks right next to this exhibit:

FLYING FORKS
Illegible
36" x 46", acrylic on canvas
Rescued from trash in Brighton, MA
donated by Eliot Jackson and Stacy Sylvain

We see young man and young woman sitting face to face in a vaguely defined outdoor setting; the viewer’s prospective is three quarters behind the man. Seemingly oblivious to whatever is going on above and behind her, the woman seems concerned about the mental state of her partner, who maintains a death grip on a dismembered steering wheel. While the significance of the cross in the background is unclear, this painting seems to be visual representation of Yogi Berra’s advice, “When you’re driving an imaginary car and you see a flying fork, take it.”

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

DominusVita wrote...

It means a likelihood of post-ending DLC. Nothing like the taste of post-ME3 narrative ambiguity to throw in some new missions. From the Ashes, a piece of new downloadable content arises...

At this point, I'm a bit nonchalant about DLC. I'll see what the inevitable trailers look like and throw in my 2 cents. Unless it looks mindblowing, I think I'll save my money instead.

One thing is certain:  At some point in time, near or far, some wise person at EA will realize that, putting ego aside, a great deal of money can be made from fixing a lousy ending to this story.

[crimzontearz]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

We could put the disks right next to this exhibit:

FLYING FORKS
Illegible
36" x 46", acrylic on canvas
Rescued from trash in Brighton, MA
donated by Eliot Jackson and Stacy Sylvain

We see young man and young woman sitting face to face in a vaguely defined outdoor setting; the viewer’s prospective is three quarters behind the man. Seemingly oblivious to whatever is going on above and behind her, the woman seems concerned about the mental state of her partner, who maintains a death grip on a dismembered steering wheel. While the significance of the cross in the background is unclear, this painting seems to be visual representation of Yogi Berra’s advice, “When you’re driving an imaginary car and you see a flying fork, take it.”

omg that's near my wife's workplace

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
What our discussion bears out is that it is often far easier to head canon bad things when you have little to go on. 

Yeah, I'd say that this seems to be empirically true. The history of ME3 ending interpretations is largely one of people making up headcanon that they themselves don't like, and then raging about it. I don't really undertand the procerss myself, since I don't do that.

No, it's making you head canon because the writers offer nothing much to go on and they themselves cannot agree even what they meant to show.

But as you yourself said , negative headcanon seems to be easier. That's the bit that interested me. Why would that be? And I was agreeing with you there, you know.

Mac Walters said the galaxy was supposed to be a wasteland at the end.  

I'll take your word for it -- never saw that myself. But.... so what? Is non-game stuff only canon when it's unpleasant? What about contradictory twitter apocrypha? Other Bio writers didn't share that opinion.

And whatever Walters thought, he didn't show any compelling reason to think there'd be a galactic dark age. Relays gone? Well, each individual cluster then goes its own way. Some revert to barbarism, maybe. Others wouldn't. I'm kind of disappointed this didn't stay, actually, since it would make for a more interesting ME universe. 

What we wanted is exactly the converse of what you stated and nice job taking what I said out of context-I know now you aren't trying to be genuine.  We did want something logical and a possibly more positive outcome.

Huh? I didn't say anything at all about what you wanted. I'm interested in why people are gravitating to negative outcomes. Sorry for talking about what I find interesting rather than what you find interesting.

And if that quote of yours can only be properly interpreted in light of another post of yours that I didn't read, I'm sorry for not following your complex thoughts.

Modifié par AlanC9, 19 juillet 2012 - 10:54 .

[The Twilight God]

Pitznik wrote...

As far as I remember Reapers focused on biggest cities. That means there is plenty left. Also, months? I wonder how exactly Bioware imagined humans defending cities from Reapers for months...

Hackett says it's been months since you left Earth. I believe in the conversation before you go to Cronos Station.

No point in showing game's main hero breathing under rubble, if he is reduced to vegetable. Realism isn't important - if something is possible, it can happen.

That's what a bad writer would say. I dismiss bad lazy writing. No free passes here. It's the writers job to write their story, not yours or mine. They cut it off at a point where the only rational conclusion is that he dies.

Bioware needs to fix the endings. Other than that Shep (and crew) is screwed and unlike Control and Synthesis he isn't a Space God and there is no space magic to save him. The situation he is in is pretty dire. Honestly, the only reason I would care if he lived is if he reunited with his LI and can final get some peace and happiness. Otherwise, he might as well die. At least then you have closure.

That's not important - it's like Shepard surviving in ME1 after the fight with Saren - he just did and that's it. Scene speaks for itself. People survive explosions, survive being stuck under the rubble after earthquakes, survive heavy wounds. Likelyhood is irrelevant.

It's not like ME1. In ME1 he got up and walked and we saw that Anderson and rescuers showed up. He goes on to have conversations with people. Pose for a manly picture and sails off into the... "sunset". If ME1 ended like ME3 I wouldn't mind. 1. Because it's the first game and I'm not so attached to the characters and 2. there is a sequel coming. It wouldn't be intended to be the last time I every see the hero.

[AlanC9]

The Twilight God wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

As far as I remember Reapers focused on biggest cities. That means there is plenty left. Also, months? I wonder how exactly Bioware imagined humans defending cities from Reapers for months...

Hackett says it's been months since you left Earth. I believe in the conversation before you go to Cronos Station.

You're correct. The question is how much bombardment there was over that time. The Reapers aren't going to glass the planet since they want all that sweet, sweet DNA.

[The Twilight God]

AresKeith wrote...

someone from Bioware tweeted Shepard landed on one of the Citadel arms after the explosion from Destroy, which is also really stupid for them to do, and if we really was why not just show some one grabbing Sheps arm and pulling him/her up

Ignore them.

This is the problem with no actual ending. They are picking on you. Ignore everything they tell you. The true is in the game or it didn't happen. Not the myriad of opinions the writers toss out to break your heart over and over. They get off on this.

[Pitznik]

The Twilight God wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

someone from Bioware tweeted Shepard landed on one of the Citadel arms after the explosion from Destroy, which is also really stupid for them to do, and if we really was why not just show some one grabbing Sheps arm and pulling him/her up

Ignore them.

This is the problem with no actual ending. They are picking on you. Ignore everything they tell you. The true is in the game or it didn't happen. Not the myriad of opinions the writers toss out to break your heart over and over. They get off on this.

That is sensible approach. It is either part of the game, or it is not. If they want to retcon/change/add, they have to do another EC, twitter won't do.

[ganglor89]

to me the shepard lives ending is "bittersweet" done right. it reminds me a lot of the ending of district 9; where we see prawn Wikus with his aluminum flower. there are two ways to take that: either that christopher johnson will come back and cure him like he promised, or he wont. shepard living can mean 2 things as well. either his friends/LI find him or they don't.

This ending only works because of the extended cut. knowing that the normany crew makes it off the unknown planet plus seeing that grunt and wrex make it back to tuchunka show that not only is space travel still possible even with no mass relays, but that there is nothing between the crew and earth.

if i have to use my imagination for this ending then so be it, because that what happens in my head canon.

[devSin]

ganglor89 wrote...

to me the shepard lives ending is "bittersweet" done right. it reminds me a lot of the ending of district 9; where we see prawn Wikus with his aluminum flower. there are two ways to take that: either that christopher johnson will come back and cure him like he promised, or he wont. shepard living can mean 2 things as well. either his friends/LI find him or they don't.

That shot is superfluous, however, thanks to the rest of the sequence (you already know who left the flower).

The question is not whether the squad would be reunited with Shepard. The question is how it's even possible for Shepard to live (and apparently it isn't actually possible, since they can't even say how it is).

An analogy would be if District 9 ended with the mercenary pointing a gun at Wikus, clearly intending to kill him. The end. Does he live? Does he die? It's ambiguous on purpose. And that's still a terrible analogy, since a strong rational case can be made for either outcome (which is not the case with the stupid breath scene).

BioWare needed to show the aliens killing the mercenary. They needed to show something that would support the fantasy that Shepard somehow escapes that situation. Perhaps if they had done a better job it wouldn't be necessary, but with what we're given, it really is for a lot of the people here.

Modifié par devSin, 19 juillet 2012 - 11:35 .

[The Twilight God]

AlanC9 wrote...

Actually, Demeter was the first colony. And Demeter is within secondary relay range of Earth, since it is said to link to Charon rather than Arcturus, which is the local primary.

First, if it requires a relay to get to... it's still too far.

Second, Charon links to Arcturus only. So they would have to go to Arcturus then go to this mystery system via FTL (which would take a long time) 

Third, Where in-game is this planet ever mentioned? This planet does not actually exist in any books, comics or games to my knowledge. The only demeter is the AML DEMETER.

Mass Effect wiki...

Demeter[/b] is a garden world colonized by humans in 2152, and their first extrasolar colony. This planet is in a system connected by its mass relay to the Charon Relay. The investment money for this colony is raised by the Delta Pavonis Foundation.

If you look on the Wiki it has no credible source and claims it's in a system (not mentioned) with it's own mass relay that links directly to the Charon relay. And the charon relay only goes to Arcturus

Terra Nova was the 1st colony beyond the Charon Relay. There is no Demeter. As far as I can tell the 1st extrasolar "colony" was Gagarin Station.

AlanC9 wrote...

Actually, they've been trying to  "capture population centers with minimal loss of life, " since they don't want to wreck the harvest. So while some cities are gone, others aren't. Whether there are workable labs left in them is another matter....

They were harvesting people in London (that's whay the conduit was there)... and London was rubble.

AlanC9 wrote...

You've got this backward. Prmary relays have a single target. Secondary relays, like Charon, go to any relay within a few hundred lightyears. Arcturus was where the first trans-relay explorers went, and  where the local primary is located, but it isn't the only destination from the Charon relay.

No, you have it wrong. Charon relay only goes to Arcturus. Arcturus goes to multiple systems.

But that doesn't matter one way or the other. If another garden world is in the Local Cluster it wouldn't require a mass relay so your entire argument is flawed at the foundation.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 19 juillet 2012 - 11:42 .

[vallore]

AlanC9 wrote...



But as you yourself said , negative headcanon seems to be easier. That's the bit that interested me. Why would that be? And I was agreeing with you there, you know.

Not easier. Easier in this particular circumstances. Let us see:

You character is wounded and apparently bleeding to death, as shown in previous scenes.

Your character is in a pile of ruble, (probably) in a ruined station, no rescuers in sight. Obviously she is having difficulty at just breathing. (That breath didn’t sound particularly healthy did it?)

In the mean time, The Normandy crashed, and after that, the crew had time repair the ship, and to receive the news of Anderson’s death. All this implies time passed, not only for the repairs but also for the search parties to find Anderson and to give up on finding Shepard, (otherwise why would the crew have a ceremony to honour her if they didn’t knew the fate of Anderson and probable fate of Shepard?)

So; what is the most logical scenario?

Shepard being well and fine, drinking Margaritas while waiting for Garrus and Co… or Shepard being dead in a heap of rubble?

Now I can headcanon with the beast of them, but really, a scenario must be credible in the first place to be satisfying, and this one pushes it to the limit.

More importantly the issue is not even truly a inability to headcannon Shepard’s survival and reunion; is the fact that Shepard’s survival and later reunion should have been shown, not imagined, as that is the most basic expectation the storyteller had to fulfill. In a RPG it is up to the storyteller to show the direct consequences of the player’s character acts. And that includes the vital information of the character being alive or not after said act.

[CuseGirl]

 I just hate the breath scene because it seems like RPG's now have this requirement of vagueness and grimness. I didn't play ME1, I don't have an Xbox, so I can't comment on it. But ME2 was pretty straightforward: what you are seeing is what is happening. And most of ME3 was like that too. There was no confusion if I was speaking to Liara or Tali or Garrus. There was no speculation to be made on whether I'm actually fighting Cerberus or Kai Leng or Reaperized-Geth. Those events were happening and REALLY happening to Shepard. So why at the every end is this mechanism of "well you can make it up in the end" being used?

And I'm sorry, I'll be very blunt, the game should explicitly have a positive ending. I don't know when they thought this work was high-brow, but it's not. It's a space shooter with an interesting universe and a bevy of characters to interact with. This game was supposed to end with me going "FCK YEA!", not "oh wow, Shep drew breath"

[Iakus]

ganglor89 wrote...

to me the shepard lives ending is "bittersweet" done right. it reminds me a lot of the ending of district 9; where we see prawn Wikus with his aluminum flower. there are two ways to take that: either that christopher johnson will come back and cure him like he promised, or he wont. shepard living can mean 2 things as well. either his friends/LI find him or they don't.

This ending only works because of the extended cut. knowing that the normany crew makes it off the unknown planet plus seeing that grunt and wrex make it back to tuchunka show that not only is space travel still possible even with no mass relays, but that there is nothing between the crew and earth.

if i have to use my imagination for this ending then so be it, because that what happens in my head canon.

THe Normandy crew getting off the planet is only half of what it takes to be bittersweet.

The other half is knowing Shepard gets off the Citadel.

As it is, the Shepard breathes scene is every bit as bad as the Normandy crash in the original ending.  Implications unpleasant.

[XxDarkTimexX]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

And this is funny .. what are we still arguing on the forums ....





SPECULATIONS FROM EVERYWHERE !

i just like how they keep bringing up Indoctrination theory tho a lot of people would its dead and the only way to fix the plotholes is to have indoctrination theory to be true, like if the star kid said something like we will have your mind shepard you belong to us. If they made indoctrination true then either we get a dlc that makes the final attack more epic and make leviathan fights harbinger while shepard and the crew handles TIM or whoever
 

[ShepnTali]

CuseGirl wrote...

 I just hate the breath scene because it seems like RPG's now have this requirement of vagueness and grimness. I didn't play ME1, I don't have an Xbox, so I can't comment on it. But ME2 was pretty straightforward: what you are seeing is what is happening. And most of ME3 was like that too. There was no confusion if I was speaking to Liara or Tali or Garrus. There was no speculation to be made on whether I'm actually fighting Cerberus or Kai Leng or Reaperized-Geth. Those events were happening and REALLY happening to Shepard. So why at the every end is this mechanism of "well you can make it up in the end" being used?

And I'm sorry, I'll be very blunt, the game should explicitly have a positive ending. I don't know when they thought this work was high-brow, but it's not. It's a space shooter with an interesting universe and a bevy of characters to interact with. This game was supposed to end with me going "FCK YEA!", not "oh wow, Shep drew breath"

You nailed it. Some people are ok with the 'hmm...' endings, and others expect the same kind of feelings they had at the end of ME1 and 2. One group is screwed. Though the latter is screwed harder.

[Iakus]

CuseGirl wrote...

 I just hate the breath scene because it seems like RPG's now have this requirement of vagueness and grimness. I didn't play ME1, I don't have an Xbox, so I can't comment on it. But ME2 was pretty straightforward: what you are seeing is what is happening. And most of ME3 was like that too. There was no confusion if I was speaking to Liara or Tali or Garrus. There was no speculation to be made on whether I'm actually fighting Cerberus or Kai Leng or Reaperized-Geth. Those events were happening and REALLY happening to Shepard. So why at the every end is this mechanism of "well you can make it up in the end" being used?

And I'm sorry, I'll be very blunt, the game should explicitly have a positive ending. I don't know when they thought this work was high-brow, but it's not. It's a space shooter with an interesting universe and a bevy of characters to interact with. This game was supposed to end with me going "FCK YEA!", not "oh wow, Shep drew breath"

Here's ME1's ending which has everything ME3 lacks as far as "hope" goes

www.youtube.com/watch

[ShepnTali]

Concerning this sudden IT possibility stuff from Bioware it occurs after the Chris Priestly poll on the Retake site. It was clear the IT group was huge, so they need a bone.


This 'anything you want it to mean' stance is the cure all band-aid.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

ShepnTali wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

 I just hate the breath scene because it seems like RPG's now have this requirement of vagueness and grimness. I didn't play ME1, I don't have an Xbox, so I can't comment on it. But ME2 was pretty straightforward: what you are seeing is what is happening. And most of ME3 was like that too. There was no confusion if I was speaking to Liara or Tali or Garrus. There was no speculation to be made on whether I'm actually fighting Cerberus or Kai Leng or Reaperized-Geth. Those events were happening and REALLY happening to Shepard. So why at the every end is this mechanism of "well you can make it up in the end" being used?

And I'm sorry, I'll be very blunt, the game should explicitly have a positive ending. I don't know when they thought this work was high-brow, but it's not. It's a space shooter with an interesting universe and a bevy of characters to interact with. This game was supposed to end with me going "FCK YEA!", not "oh wow, Shep drew breath"

You nailed it. Some people are ok with the 'hmm...' endings, and others expect the same kind of feelings they had at the end of ME1 and 2. One group is screwed. Though the latter is screwed harder.

Then when you played ME1 and ME2 and had those twe "FCK YEA!" moments, ME3's "oh wow, Shep drew breath?" is even worse. This means alive, right. "It could be Shep's last breath." Gee thanks for that.

I'll repeat that I'm sorry to the arty people out there who like this stuff but in this kind of situation I have no imagination anymore. I want to be shown. I want that "FCK YEA!" moment at the end. I don't care if it's not realistic. Shepard making that Olympic Gold Medal leap onto the Normandy at the end of ME2 wasn't realistic either and no one complained. I don't want my hero buried in rubble. "Hello, I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite pile of rubble somewhere in (London, on the Citadel, Detroit, who the hell knows?)."

PS: The Reapers weren't realistic either. Nor were biotics. So if you're going to use the realism argument for Shepard not surviving it, get a grip. This is an "action  movie" game, not something for the Cannes Film Festival.

[AresKeith]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

 I just hate the breath scene because it seems like RPG's now have this requirement of vagueness and grimness. I didn't play ME1, I don't have an Xbox, so I can't comment on it. But ME2 was pretty straightforward: what you are seeing is what is happening. And most of ME3 was like that too. There was no confusion if I was speaking to Liara or Tali or Garrus. There was no speculation to be made on whether I'm actually fighting Cerberus or Kai Leng or Reaperized-Geth. Those events were happening and REALLY happening to Shepard. So why at the every end is this mechanism of "well you can make it up in the end" being used?

And I'm sorry, I'll be very blunt, the game should explicitly have a positive ending. I don't know when they thought this work was high-brow, but it's not. It's a space shooter with an interesting universe and a bevy of characters to interact with. This game was supposed to end with me going "FCK YEA!", not "oh wow, Shep drew breath"

You nailed it. Some people are ok with the 'hmm...' endings, and others expect the same kind of feelings they had at the end of ME1 and 2. One group is screwed. Though the latter is screwed harder.

Then when you played ME1 and ME2 and had those twe "FCK YEA!" moments, ME3's "oh wow, Shep drew breath?" is even worse. This means alive, right. "It could be Shep's last breath." Gee thanks for that.

I'll repeat that I'm sorry to the arty people out there who like this stuff but in this kind of situation I have no imagination anymore. I want to be shown. I want that "FCK YEA!" moment at the end. I don't care if it's not realistic. Shepard making that Olympic Gold Medal leap onto the Normandy at the end of ME2 wasn't realistic either and no one complained. I don't want my hero buried in rubble. "Hello, I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite pile of rubble somewhere in (London, on the Citadel, Detroit, who the hell knows?)."

PS: The Reapers weren't realistic either. Nor were biotics. So if you're going to use the realism argument for Shepard not surviving it, get a grip. This is an "action  movie" game, not something for the Cannes Film Festival.

I guess thats why ME3 is a "stand-alone game" because Bioware said its the "best start for new players", and basically said screw you to the original fans of the series

[AlanC9]

The Twilight God wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Actually, Demeter was the first colony. And Demeter is within secondary relay range of Earth, since it is said to link to Charon rather than Arcturus, which is the local primary.

First, if it requires a relay to get to... it's still too far.

Agreed. But it doesn't. Anything within secondary relay range is doable in normal FTL. The argument is that Charon is a secondary.

Second, Charon links to Arcturus only. So they would have to go to Arcturus then go to this mystery system via FTL (which would take a long time)

Why are you assuming Charon is a primary? It would be very weird for a primary link to cover only 37 light-years. Not inconceivable, but weird. And if if Arcturus isn't the local primary, the system has little strategic value, which would be contrary to the Codex. It's only a three day trip from Arcturus to Sol with no relay.

As for Demeter, if you want to pick a fight with the Wiki guys, be my guest. I don't got a dog in that fight. So let's say there's no Demeter. You're saying there are no inhabitable planets in Earth's local group except for Earth itself. On what evidence? It's not like the maps are exhaustive -- for instance, Bekenstein doesn't exist until you download Kasumi.

No, you have it wrong. Charon relay only goes to Arcturus. Arcturus goes to multiple systems.

How do you know Charon goes only to Arcturus? Because that's where Jon Grissom went the first time it was activated? He had to go somewhere. If you've got a Codex entry or something for Charon-Arcturus being a primary link, let's have it. Otherwise, I gotta go with the Wiki guys.

But that doesn't matter one way or the other. If another garden world is in the Local Cluster it wouldn't require a mass relay so your entire argument is flawed at the foundation.

Flawed how? Not requiring a relay doesn't mean there isn't one. What's your argument?

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 juillet 2012 - 12:51 .

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...
No you just want to be spoon fed everything.  Have it all tied up in a pretty little bow.  Where is your imagination?
And the music that plays during the breath scene seems quite uplifting to me so I dont see how it is ambiguous at all, but rather certain that shepard survives to reunite with his loved one.

Again with the spoon-fed comments.  We need some newer insult books to read from around here.  Or more creative insulters.

What we want is no more spoon-feeding than seeing Shepard dissolve in Synthesis or electrocuted in Control.  We want Bioware to stop jerking us around and show Shepard surviving.  Not "implied to survive"

That requires imagination.

[3DandBeyond]

ShepnTali wrote...

Concerning this sudden IT possibility stuff from Bioware it occurs after the Chris Priestly poll on the Retake site. It was clear the IT group was huge, so they need a bone.


This 'anything you want it to mean' stance is the cure all band-aid.

When you can't or won't write it, imply it.

That seems to be their workaround for everything.  Then twitter retcon for all.

[3DandBeyond]

CuseGirl wrote...

 I just hate the breath scene because it seems like RPG's now have this requirement of vagueness and grimness. I didn't play ME1, I don't have an Xbox, so I can't comment on it. But ME2 was pretty straightforward: what you are seeing is what is happening. And most of ME3 was like that too. There was no confusion if I was speaking to Liara or Tali or Garrus. There was no speculation to be made on whether I'm actually fighting Cerberus or Kai Leng or Reaperized-Geth. Those events were happening and REALLY happening to Shepard. So why at the every end is this mechanism of "well you can make it up in the end" being used?

And I'm sorry, I'll be very blunt, the game should explicitly have a positive ending. I don't know when they thought this work was high-brow, but it's not. It's a space shooter with an interesting universe and a bevy of characters to interact with. This game was supposed to end with me going "FCK YEA!", not "oh wow, Shep drew breath"

The destroy ending as a whole is the only thing in 3 games that you really must head canon.  Everything else plays out explicitly for you-you may not see someone die, but you know they did by what is said and done.  The most important person in the game in the last part, the most important part of any story, in all but one ending has a conclusive definitive and obvious fate.  Destroy as explained is itself vague and ambiguous and contradictory.  It then leaves the hero to an uncertain fate, hurt and badly broken, in an unknown condition, in an unknown location, alone.

ME, set up certain rules within its stories and rules can be bent and even broken with good reason.  If however you create a series and ALWAYS show the fate of the hero that exists in all 3 stories, you are bound by the rule you created and have set up expectations for your fans that must not change except for the best of all reasons.  The destroy option gives you no such good reason.  But ME has always been about Shepard, creating a face-why was it so important for the face import to work.  Didn't they understand that?  You bring your hero home.