760 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

 I just hate the breath scene because it seems like RPG's now have this requirement of vagueness and grimness. I didn't play ME1, I don't have an Xbox, so I can't comment on it. But ME2 was pretty straightforward: what you are seeing is what is happening. And most of ME3 was like that too. There was no confusion if I was speaking to Liara or Tali or Garrus. There was no speculation to be made on whether I'm actually fighting Cerberus or Kai Leng or Reaperized-Geth. Those events were happening and REALLY happening to Shepard. So why at the every end is this mechanism of "well you can make it up in the end" being used?

And I'm sorry, I'll be very blunt, the game should explicitly have a positive ending. I don't know when they thought this work was high-brow, but it's not. It's a space shooter with an interesting universe and a bevy of characters to interact with. This game was supposed to end with me going "FCK YEA!", not "oh wow, Shep drew breath"

The destroy ending as a whole is the only thing in 3 games that you really must head canon.  Everything else plays out explicitly for you-you may not see someone die, but you know they did by what is said and done.  The most important person in the game in the last part, the most important part of any story, in all but one ending has a conclusive definitive and obvious fate.  Destroy as explained is itself vague and ambiguous and contradictory.  It then leaves the hero to an uncertain fate, hurt and badly broken, in an unknown condition, in an unknown location, alone.

ME, set up certain rules within its stories and rules can be bent and even broken with good reason.  If however you create a series and ALWAYS show the fate of the hero that exists in all 3 stories, you are bound by the rule you created and have set up expectations for your fans that must not change except for the best of all reasons.  The destroy option gives you no such good reason.  But ME has always been about Shepard, creating a face-why was it so important for the face import to work.  Didn't they understand that?  You bring your hero home.

And this is why I think Bioware really wants Shepard dead..  Most of the endings are explicit that Shep is dad, but the so-called "Shepard lives" ending you have to head canon.  And can just as easily head canon Shep dead as alive.

And this is somehow necessary because...?

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

And this is why I think Bioware really wants Shepard dead..  Most of the endings are explicit that Shep is dad, but the so-called "Shepard lives" ending you have to head canon.  And can just as easily head canon Shep dead as alive.

And this is somehow necessary because...?

Because you are not adult enough to decide what parts you want to use your imagination for-so they decided to make one canon use your imagination scene. 


I bought a videogame to tell me and let me play a story.  What I paid for was my imagination. Darn it all, I said, my imagination is bigger than any videogame and it's free. 

[The Twilight God]

iakus wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

 I just hate the breath scene because it seems like RPG's now have this requirement of vagueness and grimness. I didn't play ME1, I don't have an Xbox, so I can't comment on it. But ME2 was pretty straightforward: what you are seeing is what is happening. And most of ME3 was like that too. There was no confusion if I was speaking to Liara or Tali or Garrus. There was no speculation to be made on whether I'm actually fighting Cerberus or Kai Leng or Reaperized-Geth. Those events were happening and REALLY happening to Shepard. So why at the every end is this mechanism of "well you can make it up in the end" being used?

And I'm sorry, I'll be very blunt, the game should explicitly have a positive ending. I don't know when they thought this work was high-brow, but it's not. It's a space shooter with an interesting universe and a bevy of characters to interact with. This game was supposed to end with me going "FCK YEA!", not "oh wow, Shep drew breath"

Here's ME1's ending which has everything ME3 lacks as far as "hope" goes

www.youtube.com/watch

ME1 has one of the best endings (Conduit on Illos to credits) I've ever experienced. That first time was just amazing. ME2 was meh, because the suicide mission was overhyped, but it was OK.

ME3? Where was the space battle? I didn't gather all those forces to look at alliance ships in damn near every shot and see nothing but the opeing volley. After that you never saw anything spacewise that was in the thick of battle, unless your EMS is low and one of the smaller reapers atsacks the Crucible.

It definitely needs a post fight "Hell yeah, we won" moment. Instead it was "Oh s sad. Isn;t this depressing. yawn". 

[Dublinguy65]

Well I always go back to the old fart with the kid at the end credits. He says it was "a long time ago" and "one more story" laying the ground work for other (possible) Shepard adventures. Of course he say this with the other endings as well, so I could be just way off in my assumption.

[The Twilight God]

AlanC9 wrote...


Agreed. But it doesn't. Anything within secondary relay range is doable in normal FTL. The argument is that Charon is a secondary.

Yes, a secondary relay that only has one other relay in range of it.
 

Why are you assuming Charon is a primary? It would be very weird for a primary link to cover only 37 light-years. Not inconceivable, but weird. And if if Arcturus isn't the local primary, the system has little strategic value, which would be contrary to the Codex. It's only a three day trip from Arcturus to Sol with no relay.

I never said it is primary. I have said repeatedly that Arcturus links to multiple relays. However, Charon relay only goes to Arcturus because Arcturus is the only one close enough. Not because Charon and Arcturus are primary pairs. Just because Arcturus is in range of 4 relays doesn't mean each of those 4 are in range of each other.

However, from my understanding Arcturus has 4 relays. 3 primary and the 1 that is secondary and goes to Sol. Charon and the Arcturus secondary are the only secondarys in the area so they function like short range primaries.

As for Demeter, if you want to pick a fight with the Wiki guys, be my guest. I don't got a dog in that fight. So let's say there's no Demeter. You're saying there are no inhabitable planets in Earth's local group except for Earth itself. On what evidence? It's not like the maps are exhaustive -- for instance, Bekenstein doesn't exist until you download Kasumi.

That doesn't mean I can just make up colony worlds.

And I don't need evidence as I'm not going to prove a negative. You have the burden of proof as you are making the positive claim.

Edit: I did your work for you.  I have been looking everywhere for this planet and I found it. It doesn't mention where it's at exactly. It is merely mention in the codex along with an eezo crash, but it has to be in the local cluster since Terra Nova is the 1st beyond the charon relay. So there Is at least 1 garden world in the local cluster. I was wrong about that. Still not sure how far away it is. At the most 3 years travel time in FTL.

How do you know Charon goes only to Arcturus? Because that's where Jon Grissom went the first time it was activated? He had to go somewhere. If you've got a Codex entry or something for Charon-Arcturus being a primary link, let's have it. Otherwise, I gotta go with the Wiki guys.

It is mentioned in ME1 codex that Arcturus is the only route to Sol and that the 1st fleet guards the relay leading to Earth. That's why the fleets were there in the beginning of ME3. It's basically the last line of defense before an enemy  force can get to Sol. I also think the comic with the illusive man's origin states this.
 
And about the wiki. It's a wiki. I can go in right now and remove it. It is not mentioned in any game, comic or book that I am aware of. So as far as this conversation is concerned it does not exist until you prove otherwise.

Terra Nova is the 1st extrasolar colony beyond the charon Relay. Ergo, this demeter could not be what you say. It contradicts the Terra Nova codex. 

Edit: I have been looking everywhere for this planet and I found it. It doesn't mention where it's at exactly. It is merely mention in the codex along with the eezo crash, but it has to be in the local cluster since Terra Nova is the 1st beyonf the charon relay. So there Is at least 1 garden world in the local cluster. I was wrong about that.

Flawed how? Not requiring a relay doesn't mean there isn't one. What's your argument?

You're saying there is a colony within the local cluster. If that is the case why would it have a relay if it's a hop and a skip away with FTL?

Why didn't the Reapers put a relay in Earths orbit while they were at it so that people don't have to fly all the way from Pluto. Even secondary relays cover a great distance.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 20 juillet 2012 - 05:06 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Twilight God wrote...

ME1 has one of the best endings (Conduit on Illos to credits) I've ever experienced. That first time was just amazing. ME2 was meh, because the suicide mission was overhyped, but it was OK.

ME3? Where was the space battle? I didn't gather all those forces to look at alliance ships in damn near every shot and see nothing but the opeing volley. After that you never saw anything spacewise that was in the thick of battle, unless your EMS is low and one of the smaller reapers atsacks the Crucible.

It definitely needs a post fight "Hell yeah, we won" moment. Instead it was "Oh s sad. Isn;t this depressing. yawn". 

Speaking of Ilos.... Was the reason that Shepard didn't use this to get onto the Citadel because of the fact that ME1 wasn't available on the PS3? Or did I miss another plot by Tweet? <_<

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 20 juillet 2012 - 04:42 .

[Lookout1390]

So does that mean with no established 'canon' ending...the franchise can't go on?

That's actually good news to me.

Maybe they will bury this plot-hole riddled dead-horse, and quit kicking it.

The breath scene gave me a beacon of hope before the EC, and when they played that little breath scene after all that footage, I lost even more hope.

Cleary Shepard died not long after that, or else they never would have bothered making that plate for him/her on the board on the Normandy.

Modifié par Lookout1390, 20 juillet 2012 - 04:47 .

[The Twilight God]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Speaking of Ilos.... Was the reason that Shepard didn't use this to get onto the Citadel because of the fact that ME1 wasn't available on the PS3? Or did I miss another plot by Tweet? <_<

I believe it's counterpart wiithin the Citadel was removed after the geth attack.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 20 juillet 2012 - 04:48 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Twilight God wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Speaking of Ilos.... Was the reason that Shepard didn't use this to get onto the Citadel because of the fact that ME1 wasn't available on the PS3? Or did I miss another plot by Tweet? <_<

I believe it's counterpart wiithin the Citadel was removed after the geth attack.

No. "If you get to the Presidium, be sure to check out the Demael flowers across from the Conduit. They're coming very nicely."

[AresKeith]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

ME1 has one of the best endings (Conduit on Illos to credits) I've ever experienced. That first time was just amazing. ME2 was meh, because the suicide mission was overhyped, but it was OK.

ME3? Where was the space battle? I didn't gather all those forces to look at alliance ships in damn near every shot and see nothing but the opeing volley. After that you never saw anything spacewise that was in the thick of battle, unless your EMS is low and one of the smaller reapers atsacks the Crucible.

It definitely needs a post fight "Hell yeah, we won" moment. Instead it was "Oh s sad. Isn;t this depressing. yawn". 

Speaking of Ilos.... Was the reason that Shepard didn't use this to get onto the Citadel because of the fact that ME1 wasn't available on the PS3? Or did I miss another plot by Tweet? <_<

no, they mentioned Ilos and the Conduit on ME2 for the PS3, just completely ignored it like most other things <_<

[The Twilight God]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Speaking of Ilos.... Was the reason that Shepard didn't use this to get onto the Citadel because of the fact that ME1 wasn't available on the PS3? Or did I miss another plot by Tweet? <_<

I believe it's counterpart wiithin the Citadel was removed after the geth attack.

No. "If you get to the Presidium, be sure to check out the Demael flowers across from the Conduit. They're coming very nicely."

Ah, right.

[Iakus]

Lookout1390 wrote...

So does that mean with no established 'canon' ending...the franchise can't go on?

That's actually good news to me.

Maybe they will bury this plot-hole riddled dead-horse, and quit kicking it.

The breath scene gave me a beacon of hope before the EC, and when they played that little breath scene after all that footage, I lost even more hope.

Cleary Shepard died not long after that, or else they never would have bothered making that plate for him/her on the board on the Normandy.

Pretty sure the only canon will be "Shepard's dead" How Shep died is up to us...

[Kia Purity]

The Twilight God wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Speaking of Ilos.... Was the reason that Shepard didn't use this to get onto the Citadel because of the fact that ME1 wasn't available on the PS3? Or did I miss another plot by Tweet? <_<

I believe it's counterpart wiithin the Citadel was removed after the geth attack.

No. "If you get to the Presidium, be sure to check out the Demael flowers across from the Conduit. They're coming very nicely."

Ah, right.

I heard the writers actually forgot about Ilos.

[AlanC9]

The Twilight God wrote...
Edit: I did your work for you.  I have been looking everywhere for this planet and I found it. It doesn't mention where it's at exactly. It is merely mention in the codex along with an eezo crash, but it has to be in the local cluster since Terra Nova is the 1st beyond the charon relay. So there Is at least 1 garden world in the local cluster. I was wrong about that. Still not sure how far away it is. At the most 3 years travel time in FTL.

Thanks. Actually, I forget what this was supposed to prove anyway. But how are you coming up with 3 years there?

It is mentioned in ME1 codex that Arcturus is the only route to Sol and that the 1st fleet guards the relay leading to Earth. That's why the fleets were there in the beginning of ME3. It's basically the last line of defense before an enemy  force can get to Sol. I also think the comic with the illusive man's origin states this.

Right. But the reason holding Arcturus keeps enemies from getting to Sol is because that's where the primaries are, not because of a relay that can get you to Sol from Arcturus. If an enemy fleet can get through Arcturus they can reach Sol via normal FTL in three days. They're better off doing it that way since trans-relay assaults are difficult. Which means that "only route" means the only route from anyplace that isn't already Alliance-controlled.

Edit: of course, whoever wrote those Codex entries might have had no idea that Arcturus is right around the corner from Sol.

You're saying there is a colony within the local cluster. If that is the case why would it have a relay if it's a hop and a skip away with FTL? 

Why didn't the Reapers put a relay in Earths orbit while they were at it so that people don't have to fly all the way from Pluto. Even secondary relays cover a great distance.

A few hundred l.y., at most. Nothing you can't do with ordinary FTL if you don't mind taking a few weeks. Does that count as a hop and a skip? 

Anyway, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing here. Worlds in the local cluster shoudln't have relays becuase they're too close to Sol to need one? Then why would there be any secondary relays at all?

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 juillet 2012 - 06:29 .

[AlanC9]

AresKeith wrote...
no, they mentioned Ilos and the Conduit on ME2 for the PS3, just completely ignored it like most other things <_<

Just as well. I can hardly imagine the outrage if ME3's endgame was a rehash of ME1's. Not to mention this would mean that Shepard's nowhere near Anderson or the big space battle at Earth until he reaches the Citadel. Though I guess the Normandy could mysteriously get back from Ilos in time for most of the shooting.

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 juillet 2012 - 06:29 .

[sydranark]

i didnt shell out all that money just to headcanon an ending. why did i even buy this to begin with. I might as well have stared at the wall for hours on end imagining a story in my mind

[snfonseka]

Speaking of Ilos, I assume it's not working anymore after the deactivation of the VI.

Modifié par snfonseka, 20 juillet 2012 - 06:59 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Kia Purity wrote...
I heard the writers actually forgot about Ilos.

WHAT?!?!?!

[wright1978]

Lookout1390 wrote...

So does that mean with no established 'canon' ending...the franchise can't go on?

That's actually good news to me.

Maybe they will bury this plot-hole riddled dead-horse, and quit kicking it.

The breath scene gave me a beacon of hope before the EC, and when they played that little breath scene after all that footage, I lost even more hope.

Cleary Shepard died not long after that, or else they never would have bothered making that plate for him/her on the board on the Normandy.

Normandy memeorial scene means nothing because they are stranded in the middle of nowhere, completely cut off from news. They are merely presuming Shep is dead during the memorial they are likely holding while they conduct repairs. Shep was rescued by the main fleet when they jumped straight back to earth from their holding point. That's how i see it anyway.

[dorktainian]

sydranark wrote...

i didnt shell out all that money just to headcanon an ending. why did i even buy this to begin with. I might as well have stared at the wall for hours on end imagining a story in my mind

THIS PRETTY MUCH.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

snfonseka wrote...

Speaking of Ilos, I assume it's not working anymore after the deactivation of the VI.

The mass relay the protheans built there is independent of Vigil.

Normandy makes relay jump to Ilos. Shuttle gets loaded with the entire team except for Kaiden Alenko or Ashley Williams who will now be in command of the Normandy. The shuttle drops down to the same place where they entered with the Mako. The shuttle is about the same size as the Mako. They just fly the shuttle along the same route as the Mako to the Mass Relay, go through it (it'll activate for 38 seconds) and boom! There you are at the base of the Presidium tower.

Now the thing here is EDI. When the Normandy goes back through the Mass Relay to join Sword, EDI's body goes limp. When Sword jumps to the Sol System and when the shuttle gets through the conduit, EDI can re-establish connection. That would be freaky to show.

Now, I'd change the ending... since Saren isn't going to be there to lock out the elevator, you'll take it direct to the council chamber, where you'll fight through reaper support troops  to get to the control panel. Activate the panel to open the arms ("Holy ****! She did it. Bring it through and protect the Crucible."), then our dear friend TIM shows up. You know just because BW had to have him gloat and stuff for a bit, -- our boss fight is "Survive" until the Crucible docks -- you have your entire team. It's going to be a tough fight: indoctrinated Cerberus troops and Reapers. If you've played Multiplayer it'll be like a LZ dustoff except longer -- about 3 minutes w/ Banshees, Brutes, and Phantoms oh my! When the Crucible docks it's over.

Then the obligatory one on one convo with TIM, shoot him or talk him into suicide. And have him bring Anderson with him for the hell of it since it's already recorded.

Activate the console again to get operate the Crucible. Then Avina (nearest VI got networked) tells you what you're dealing with. You can find out what the thing does -- hint (it destroys the reapers and fries the AI controlling them). No one can control the reapers, silly. What condition is it in? Depends upon Total Military Assets (not EMS ). What will happen? > 6500 fries Reaper AI and destroys all reapers in the Sol System, sends beam through relays and does the same in each system, and you ride off into the sunset. 5700-6500 Some damage to primary relays and Sol relay, but repairable, secondary relays okay, you ride off into the sunset. 5000-5699 all relays damaged but repairable, AIs get hit as well, light damage to Citadel. You survive. Random team casualties (20%) 4300-4999 severe damage to the relays, dead geth, dead EDI and all other AIs hit, Citadel takes considerable damage, Shepard needs repair work (proximity) -- I hope you saved Miranda. Random team casualties 50% <4300 You ain't making it. Relays destroyed, Citadel takes severe damage crew casualties 100%, Earth facing the Citadel is glassed. Reapers are destroyed in all cases.

If you can't get over 6500 TMA I can't help you.

Of course Avina is only going to be able to tell you that it survived in excellent condition, very good condition, good condition, fair condition, or poor condition, and give you a general idea of what happens. You can choose not to use it in which case the cycle will continue. What I'd be torn about is exempting the LI from the random death pool or not. I'd be tempted to put a place where you could save and reload and leave that up to the player to make that choice before you activate the Crucible.

No Starbrat, no stupid breath scene. Basically if you have over 5000 TMA you live. If you have over 5700 TMA you ride off into the sunset. If you have under 5700 TMA it gets dicey. You can win. Or not (lazy). No head canon ending.

You might have some conversations with Bailey regarding the elevators while your going up there, and you might have to do some stairs and stuff to get to other levels -- it might not be a straight shot up, but you'll get there, after wading through the obligatory reaper crap.

Anyway that's my ending.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:29 .

[The Real Bowser]

I don't see how Mass Effect's story can continue with the Reapers becoming good guys and protecting the galaxy, which is virtually what happens in blue and green.

Red seems like the only ending that could continue on into a playable universe, as the previous two are too good and nothing could ever threaten us again.

[The Twilight God]

Kia Purity wrote...

I heard the writers actually forgot about Ilos.

They forgot about ALOT of stuff. 

[The Twilight God]

AlanC9 wrote...

Thanks. Actually, I forget what this was supposed to prove anyway. But how are you coming up with 3 years there?

The colony started 3 years after they atttained FTL capability. Hence, at the most.

We don't know how fast FTL was back then or how far away Demeter is. My guess would be a few weeks, but it could possibly be 3 years max.

AlanC9 wrote...

Right. But the reason holding Arcturus keeps enemies from getting to Sol is because that's where the primaries are, not because of a relay that can get you to Sol from Arcturus. If an enemy fleet can get through Arcturus they can reach Sol via normal FTL in three days. They're better off doing it that way since trans-relay assaults are difficult. Which means that "only route" means the only route from anyplace that isn't already Alliance-controlled.

Show me where it is ever said or even implied that the Charon relay goes anywhere, but Arcturus. I can find no mention of the Charon Relay being able to take people anywhere but Arcturus.

AlanC9 wrote...

A few hundred l.y., at most. Nothing you can't do with ordinary FTL if you don't mind taking a few weeks. Does that count as a hop and a skip? 

All I'm saying is that Demeter is close enough that they used FTL to get there. Not a relay. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. 

AlanC9 wrote...

Anyway, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing here. Worlds in the local cluster shoudln't have relays becuase they're too close to Sol to need one? Then why would there be any secondary relays at all?

To link to Arcturus and from their to the greater galaxy.  The Reapers want to corral the humans toward the Citadel. That is why all the homeworld systems conveniently have relays.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 20 juillet 2012 - 01:13 .

[Pitznik]

The Twilight God wrote...

To link to Arcturus and from their to the greater galaxy.  The Reapers want to corral the humans toward the Citadel. That is why all the homeworld systems conveniently have relays.

Are you saying that Reapers move Relays between cycles to make them more accessible to species that look like they can progress to FTL before the next cycle? That's somewhat amusing idea.

Modifié par Pitznik, 20 juillet 2012 - 02:00 .