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BioWare on "Shepard survives" scene: "We wanted to give them a little beacon of hope."


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#76
cyrslash1974

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HopHazzard wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Most people hated Bioware's original completely ambigious endings. They promised to provide clarification and closure. However they were too cheap to clarify the Shep lives ending.


I never really saw the ambiguity in Shepard's survival. S/he's alive. What needs to be clarified?


A clip of Shep being rescued/clambering from rubble in the same way the Normandy crash was clarified to show the Normandy taking off again and not being stranded on Gilligan's island forever.


And I still don't see why any of that is necessary to clarify that Shepard is alive.

When Return of the Jedi ended (back in 1983, not the new crappy ending), I didn't rage at George Lucas for not telling me what happened to everybody once they were finished partying down with the Ewoks (though I have raged at him for many other things over the years). I imagined it for myself. And when people finally got around to writing books about what happened after Jedi, I found I liked what I came up with much better. All I need to know is that Shepard is alive and the Normandy isn't stranded. I can take the rest from there. There's nothing BioWare could come up with that would be better than what I imagine for myself.


I agree with your first message but you can't compare the ending of ROTJ and the ME3 one. The closure of ROTJ is definitive, the victory is total, the hero is alive, it's a "happy ending". In ME3, you hope to have a victory, to be definitely sure that your Shep is alive.

But I agree on the fact that you can imagine the best for Shep, in particular if you have a high EMS. But the case may be, it's not only a "beacon of hope", as BW said.

#77
crimzontearz

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Legbiter wrote...

Mysten wrote...

Ending of Halo 3: The Master Chief, completely alone as far as he is aware, is stranded in an unknown region of space drifting in an inoperable spacecraft. He enters cryogenic suspension in the hope that one day the rescue beacon will be picked up or the scrap of metal he's riding through the cosmos bumps into something. A post-credits scene teases that the ship does in fact end up drifting towards something - something near-completely ambiguous that begins to power up as he gets near.

Cut to black.

Community reaction: Awesome! Speculation time! Let us use our imaginations!

Ending of Mass Effect 3 (Destroy): Shepard defeats the Reapers, saves the galaxy and is shown to take a single breath afterwards. There's a damn good chance he's alive and there's no one telling you he can't be. His crew (and potentially his romantic interest) survives and repairs the ship and can begin to make their way to reuniting with him.

Cut to black.

Community reaction: What was that? You expect me to do what, exactly? Use my imagination to figure out what he eats for breakfast from now on and what he says to his love interest when they meet up again? This is not storytelling! I need to be explicitly told every single detail of Shepard's life story after this game concludes. You're ripping me off!

Me: What.


Pretty much this. Although this isn't the first time some fans have become deranged over the ending in a Bioware game. Morrigan fans from DA 1 threw a huge tiff as well back in the day.

 

points to my previous comment on that

#78
Pitznik

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iakus wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

I see it differently. I have no doubt Shepard lives at the ending. He can die after (he will die after, sooner or later), but he didn't yet. The end, story is over. Seven endings with Shepard being dead or having transcended into new being, one with Shepard being alive.


You have no doubt.  But many others are far less certain.  And it's apparantly meant to be that way, since it was designed to be amibguous.  Shepard may or may not be dying in that scene.  All that's certain is that for that moment, he's alive.  That's not certainty. And I certainly don't find that to be closure.  

Shepard's story couldn't end with him standing up?  Being found by a rescue team?  Waking up in a hospital?  Those are far more valid ending points to me, they state with far more certainty Sheaprd is alive, and leave just as much to the imagination.

Again, ad nauseam: there is no doubt he is alive - dead people don't breathe. If others are uncertain, they have a problem, and it is not Bioware's fault. This is clear. He may die -after-, sure, but he is not dying in that scene.

If he would stand up, noone is to say he won't make few steps and drop dead. When he is found by rescue team, noone is to say he won't die in the "ambulance". When he wakes up in hospital, he can as well die the next day. Nothing will give you closure except for the information Shepard died, because as long as he lives, something bad migh still happen. Showing anything except for the bare minimum would be pointless - the most important information was presented - Shepard is alive after the explosion of the Citadel. It is also convenient - one cutscene for all Shepards, male, female, black, white, paragon, renegade, doesn't matter. It is also a strong dramatic accent at the end. While I am not a fan of Catalyst and the RGB choice, I honestly like that scene. Usage of scenes like that is much more common concerning villains, but for hero (or antihero) it works just as fine. It is a very common trope, with clear meaning, that is why I am pretty surprised about how many people find it ambiguous.

@ Mysten: I think some people are by now so used to be angry at Bioware and at endings, than they won't accept anything than their 100% super happy hollywood ending, with Shepard and Liara riding into the sunset on unicorn.

#79
crimzontearz

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HopHazzard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Uh...did you miss the freaking comicon panel Hop?


Well, since I wasn't at comicon...


it's online too

Helper went out of his way to say that could be very well Shepard's last breath and it was meant to be ambiguous so.....yeah not as self evident as you think is it?


It's as evident as I want it to be. That's the point of making it ambiguous in the first place.


and yet in your previous post you sounded like it was certainty....which is not. You may call it closure but for many others it is not at all. I am glad you are satisfied with it but can you not even see and understand why others are not

#80
3DandBeyond

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v0rt3x22 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

It is good for your headcanon ... you can imagine how his life would have continued.

but Shepards story is done...and that is good in my opinion...let´s explore something new.

explore new characters.


Ah I see - so him surviving - and his LI going out to look for him - is all left up to my imagination.


Let me give you a little backstory on this if I may.  When the original endings were release-the torso ending couldn't even be achieved by everyone due to the need to play multiplayer.  And those that saw it asked repeatedly what the hell it meant since the Normandy was stranded.  People wanted, begged, asked for clarity and closure on this ending far more than any other.  In fact, Bioware even noted many times that they knew that this being the end of Shepard's story would mean people would be sad to say goodbye to Shepard.  Well, sad can't describe it when the best you can hope for is a torso gasping in rubble that may just be abandoned there.  People repeatedly expressed a desire to actually get the chance to say goodbye to Shepard and to understand where the torso was and how the torso got where it was.  Bioware said they were listening, even said they'd seen fan videos on youtube-but what do most of the fan videos show from ME1 on?  Personalized Shepards romancing characters-this mattered.  And unless Bioware was in a bubble somewhere they knew it.

Prior to the EC's release Bioware said on twitter that there would be a Shepard reunion with friends.  Great good-that's what some people wanted and that is just as valid a desire as those that thought a Shepard sacrifice would be great-why not both?  The EC came out and fans were looking for that reunion, but couldn't find one.  This is almost a direct parallel as to what happened initially when Bioware said you could get all endings without MP-which was proven to be false.  Now, fans couldn't figure out how to get a reunion ending-not some big scene of blue children or drinks on a beach, but one scene where Shepard sees friends/LI/teammates are alive.  People asked where the reunion scene was and were told it was implied and clearly would happen.  So, it went from people being basically told they'd see a living Shepard at the end of the game if they chose to do so to it being head canon, AGAIN.  After that people were told various contradictory things about it-that they had no way of doing a bunch of personalized reunion endings-REALLY?  Really, in a game where you get a lot of personalized Shepard dies endings.  One scene was too much.  Especially given that within the DLC there is extraneous content that merely takes up room.

What was the first thing we all did in ME1 that let us know that we were personalizing it?  We created a face for our Shepard, we took possession of Shepard.  What did Bioware deny us at the end when we were saying goodbye to the only Shepard that lives?  A last look at that face we created and one chance for our selfless hero or even self-serving hero to finally find a tidbit of happiness after years of sacrifice.  Not bunnies and rainbows because the galaxy is a mess.  But life, some hope, and some true closure.  I paid for a video game.  That implies 2 things.  A possible win if I work hard and visuals in an ending.  The hero of three games deserved a face and a life and a real sendoff at the end, not head canon.  Shepard deserved to be brought up out of the dirt and rubble and only sadistic people would have decided not to do that.  That's not art, it's cruel to fans.  No, not everyone cared about it, but a sufficient number of fans did and should not have to imagine the ending of a game.

Death is not artistic and depressing is not fun.  I have no reason and no impetus to play the games again or to buy pre-ending DLC, but they are working on getting us to do just that.  What for if I will always get what I've already gotten?  There's no reason for it. 

#81
Kel Riever

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People are crazy.

Um, you could sit there and argue that Shep bleeds out. Or you could get that, in a world with medigel, um, it works? Yeah, I would imagine something like that. What, are we going to pull some sort of medical logic into the world of mass effect now?

I think it is pretty obvious the point of the scene was to let us believe Shep lives. Of course, you have dumb comments about how 'that might be her last breath' which is just some pre-adolescent nonsense trolling. The problem is you don't have a choice, and then the problem is all the endings are craptastic conclusions, and that includes with the DLC. So arguing about the last breath is like arguing which set of bad eggs you prefer to eat.

#82
HopHazzard

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crimzontearz wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Uh...did you miss the freaking comicon panel Hop?


Well, since I wasn't at comicon...


it's online too

Helper went out of his way to say that could be very well Shepard's last breath and it was meant to be ambiguous so.....yeah not as self evident as you think is it?


It's as evident as I want it to be. That's the point of making it ambiguous in the first place.


and yet in your previous post you sounded like it was certainty....which is not. You may call it closure but for many others it is not at all. I am glad you are satisfied with it but can you not even see and understand why others are not


It seems to me that the reason people aren't satisfied that Shepard is alive is that they believe that authorial intent matters. I believe that it is 100% certain that Shepard survives the high EMS destroy ending. It doesn't matter what Hepler says. It matters what's on the screen and how I as a media consumer choose to interpret it.

(edited to correct embarrassing tense issues)

Modifié par HopHazzard, 16 juillet 2012 - 03:39 .


#83
crimzontearz

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HopHazzard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Uh...did you miss the freaking comicon panel Hop?


Well, since I wasn't at comicon...


it's online too

Helper went out of his way to say that could be very well Shepard's last breath and it was meant to be ambiguous so.....yeah not as self evident as you think is it?


It's as evident as I want it to be. That's the point of making it ambiguous in the first place.


and yet in your previous post you sounded like it was certainty....which is not. You may call it closure but for many others it is not at all. I am glad you are satisfied with it but can you not even see and understand why others are not


It seems to me that the reason people aren't satisfied that Shepard is alive is that they believe that authorial intent matters. I believe that it is 100% certain that Shepard survives the high EMS destroy ending. It doesn't matter what Hepler says. It matters what's on the screen and how I as a media consumer chose to interpret it.

the media and consumers interpreted that the heroine of the descent died at the end.............she was alive in the descent 2

the media and customers interpreted that the "ultimate sacrifice warden" dies at the end of DAO.....he is alive in DAA (same for some characters we killed off like Oghren and Leliana too I believe)

I am glad you are happy but do not come to me and tell me you KNOW he is alive, you do not, you choose to headcanon it that way and headcanon, my friend, is only one step removed from delusion

#84
Baa Baa

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Oh BioWare, you and you're "ambiguous" story telling get my jimmies all rustled in a bunch.

#85
Legbiter

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Pitznik wrote...

 Usage of scenes like that is much more common concerning villains, but for hero (or antihero) it works just as fine. It is a very common trope, with clear meaning, that is why I am pretty surprised about how many people find it ambiguous.


An example that springs to mind the film the Truman show. Jim Carrey breaks out of the pseudo world he's been living in and at the end we see his old girlfriend excitedly get up and hurry out the door. Cut to credits. What happens afterwards is basically left up to the viewer.

Pitznik wrote...
@ Mysten: I think some people are by now so used to be angry at Bioware and at endings, than they won't accept anything than their 100% super happy hollywood ending, with Shepard and Liara riding into the sunset on unicorn.


For laughs I'd throw in a slide of Shepard and Liara reclining in a hospital bed smiling proudly while holding a blue baby with a caption that read "The happy family seconds before being accidently crushed to death by their elcor nurse"....Posted Image

#86
MordiMoro

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Mysten wrote...

Ending of Halo 3: The Master Chief, completely alone as far as he is aware, is stranded in an unknown region of space drifting in an inoperable spacecraft. He enters cryogenic suspension in the hope that one day the rescue beacon will be picked up or the scrap of metal he's riding through the cosmos bumps into something. A post-credits scene teases that the ship does in fact end up drifting towards something - something near-completely ambiguous that begins to power up as he gets near.

Cut to black.

Community reaction: Awesome! Speculation time! Let us use our imaginations!

Ending of Mass Effect 3 (Destroy): Shepard defeats the Reapers, saves the galaxy and is shown to take a single breath afterwards. There's a damn good chance he's alive and there's no one telling you he can't be. His crew (and potentially his romantic interest) survives and repairs the ship and can begin to make their way to reuniting with him.

Cut to black.

Community reaction: What was that? You expect me to do what, exactly? Use my imagination to figure out what he eats for breakfast from now on and what he says to his love interest when they meet up again? This is not storytelling! I need to be explicitly told every single detail of Shepard's life story after this game concludes. You're ripping me off!

Me: What.


Bungie has never declarations  "Chief live! new adventures!" "Chief will hibernate for ever" "Chief dead" ... If you want to make a headcanon silence, and you have to leave the players speculate. Bioware says one thing, and the day after the other. It is not speculation, is confusion.

And not keep comparing games where the story is linear and equal for all.
ME3 should not be this, but it was: for Bioware reason's XXX Shepard  had to go.
 
end.

Modifié par MordiMoro, 16 juillet 2012 - 03:45 .


#87
Ozida

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HopHazzard wrote...
It seems to me that the reason people aren't satisfied that Shepard is alive is that they believe that authorial intent matters. I believe that it is 100% certain that Shepard survives the high EMS destroy ending. It doesn't matter what Hepler says. It matters what's on the screen and how I as a media consumer choose to interpret it.


I am so confused by lack of consistence in developer's comments, as well as some opinions on BSN. Some people say that it is MY Shepard's story, while others claim that it's BW Shepard's story and they have the right to tell it as they wish to. So I can't complain about the endings because it's THEIR story but then I suppose to imagine my ending interpretation because it's MY story?

Gosh, I just wished they would give me a single, straight-forward ending with no choices, no room for any speculations, imagination or guessing. Not everybody has a rich imagination, you know! If I did, I would write my own books or something, lol.

Modifié par Ozida, 16 juillet 2012 - 03:46 .


#88
RadicalDisconnect

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The reason we wanted an EC is that we wanted closure for Shepard's story. I don't care if he's certainly dead or certainly alive, just be definitive.

Although for those who want a canon ending, what about the people who chose something other than destroy? Are you telling them to screw off then?

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 16 juillet 2012 - 03:48 .


#89
MordiMoro

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Ozida wrote...

Gosh, I just wished they would give me a single, straight-forward ending with no choices, no room for any speculations, imagination or guessing. Not everybody has a rich imagination, you know! If I did, I would write my own books or something, lol.


But Bioware has realized that for months speculate about the holes in the plot, about why certain narrative choices ... and not after the ending? Posted Image

#90
Pitznik

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crimzontearz wrote...

I am glad you are happy but do not come to me and tell me you KNOW he is alive, you do not, you choose to headcanon it that way and headcanon, my friend, is only one step removed from delusion

Shepard drawing a breath under the rubble is not headcannon. And that happens to be the end of one of possible endings of ME3. So, yes, he/she is alive at the end, and we KNOW it.

#91
Fireblader70

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Shepard lives, but because we don't see them hug an LI or smile creepily like ME1 it's not enough? Well, to each their own...

#92
crimzontearz

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Pitznik wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

I am glad you are happy but do not come to me and tell me you KNOW he is alive, you do not, you choose to headcanon it that way and headcanon, my friend, is only one step removed from delusion

Shepard drawing a breath under the rubble is not headcannon. And that happens to be the end of one of possible endings of ME3. So, yes, he/she is alive at the end, and we KNOW it.

john helpers says otherwise

#93
Love Sherri

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So, they included the breathing scene to give hope...

Does that mean the other 3 choices contain no hope?

#94
DistantUtopia

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mass Effect without Shepard would be like the DC Universe without Batman. Batman is central to his own corner of the universe. The Mass Effect universe is bigger than Shepard, and has been for some time.


What would be more appropriate is Mass Effect Without Shepard is like Detective Comics without Batman.  The way ME has been presented to us hasn't really given "me" much exposition on other interesting characters in my opinion.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or, alternatively, they'll set it far enough forward in time that Shepard would be dead anyway, and either leave it ambiguous or reflect it and let it be as irrelevant to a later story as it already is.


Which is what I've been saying is the "Canon" ending all this time.  Canon ending is Shepard is dead.  Whether this is from Blue/Green beams or old age, Shepard HAS to die for any sequel.

#95
Baa Baa

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Love Sherri wrote...

So, they included the breathing scene to give hope...

Does that mean the other 3 choices contain no hope?

Yes

#96
HopHazzard

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crimzontearz wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Uh...did you miss the freaking comicon panel Hop?


Well, since I wasn't at comicon...


it's online too

Helper went out of his way to say that could be very well Shepard's last breath and it was meant to be ambiguous so.....yeah not as self evident as you think is it?


It's as evident as I want it to be. That's the point of making it ambiguous in the first place.


and yet in your previous post you sounded like it was certainty....which is not. You may call it closure but for many others it is not at all. I am glad you are satisfied with it but can you not even see and understand why others are not


It seems to me that the reason people aren't satisfied that Shepard is alive is that they believe that authorial intent matters. I believe that it is 100% certain that Shepard survives the high EMS destroy ending. It doesn't matter what Hepler says. It matters what's on the screen and how I as a media consumer chose to interpret it.

the media and consumers interpreted that the heroine of the descent died at the end.............she was alive in the descent 2

the media and customers interpreted that the "ultimate sacrifice warden" dies at the end of DAO.....he is alive in DAA (same for some characters we killed off like Oghren and Leliana too I believe)

I am glad you are happy but do not come to me and tell me you KNOW he is alive, you do not, you choose to headcanon it that way and headcanon, my friend, is only one step removed from delusion


Except this is a case of a story that's over. There isn't going to be a sequel that disproves the events of ME3. They're done writing this character. No new information is coming. All we can do is interpret the information that the game provides us with and draw our own conclusions.

#97
HopHazzard

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crimzontearz wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

I am glad you are happy but do not come to me and tell me you KNOW he is alive, you do not, you choose to headcanon it that way and headcanon, my friend, is only one step removed from delusion

Shepard drawing a breath under the rubble is not headcannon. And that happens to be the end of one of possible endings of ME3. So, yes, he/she is alive at the end, and we KNOW it.

john helpers says otherwise


And why does that matter?

#98
DistantUtopia

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Pitznik wrote...

Shepard drawing a breath under the rubble is not headcannon. And that happens to be the end of one of possible endings of ME3. So, yes, he/she is alive at the end, and we KNOW it.


Nope.  All we know is that he is alive at that point in time.  Can he survive long enough to be rescued?  How critical were his injuries.  What others have been saying is that we don't know if they successfully reunite.  It's not explicity stated but it is implied.  Implied = vague which can lead to confusion, which is why we have to headcannon what happens.

#99
HopHazzard

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Love Sherri wrote...

So, they included the breathing scene to give hope...

Does that mean the other 3 choices contain no hope?


No hope that Shepard is alive. The epilogs are pretty clear that there's hope for the future no matter what choice you make. It's just a future in which Shepard is dead.

#100
crimzontearz

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The fact the story is over means nothing. The fact remains that you do not know and as good as it is for you many others felt let down. I myself can't bring myself to replay my favorite series, I hope this is what Bioware wanted because if so mission accomplished