212 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

Blueprotoss wrote...

It seems like you're pulling a straw-mann here based on how ME3 was just another ending in a long list that a small group of "fans" complained about. This has happened with RE5, FF7, FF10, F13, FF13-2, Starcraft 
2, Warcraft 3, Halo 2, Halo 3, Gears 3, Deus Ex, Deus Ex: Human Revoltion, Half-Life 2: Episode 2, ME1, ME2, DA, DA2, KotOR, and KotOR2 just to name a few.

You just don't get it do you?

First of all, learn the meaning of 'straw man' and 'red herring', I doubt you know what those 2 words mean.

Second, the problems that ME3 has goes way beyond just a terrible ending. First of all, we're speaking about the final act of a trilogy here. You can't end a trilogy like this. It's just bad. Second, it's not just the ending of ME3 that is bad, the entire plot of ME3 is just plain bad.


Also, I've played all those games you just listed, and none of them had such a horrible plot and ending as ME2. All of those games you listed had decent plots with decent endings. None of the games you listed above had as much of a fan oproar as ME3 did. Well, maybe Halo 2 did. But Halo 2's ending was forgiven because it was only the middle act of a trilogy. We knew Halo 3 would finish the story and tie everything up.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 17 juillet 2012 - 11:07 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I still enjoy the hell out of ME2's story. Curb-stomp Reaper proxies into the dirt, allowing you to build up a team of badasses to fight the Reapers later.

It's just ME3's fault for not doing a dang thing with it.

A team of badasses? You mean a team of one-dimensional characters with daddy issues. I absolutely love the heck out of some ME2 squad members, but you can't deny that whoever wrote those characters was not very good at making up original personal histories. The ME2 squad was not that interesting as some people believe it was.

But if we look at how BioWare handled your ME2 squad (every single one of them could die in the suicide mission), you should have realized that BioWare didn't have a choice but to bring the ME2 squad back to simple cameo roles in ME3.


But honestly, if we look at the plot of ME2, we see that it's completely stagnant. The plot of ME2 does not bring us forward in solving the upcoming Reaper invasion in any significant way. And THAT is ultimately the biggest problem of ME2.

[Ticonderoga117]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
A team of badasses? You mean a team of one-dimensional characters with daddy issues. I absolutely love the heck out of some ME2 squad members, but you can't deny that whoever wrote those characters was not very good at making up original personal histories. The ME2 squad was not that interesting as some people believe it was.

But if we look at how BioWare handled your ME2 squad (every single one of them could die in the suicide mission), you should have realized that BioWare didn't have a choice but to bring the ME2 squad back to simple cameo roles in ME3.


But honestly, if we look at the plot of ME2, we see that it's completely stagnant. The plot of ME2 does not bring us forward in solving the upcoming Reaper invasion in any significant way. And THAT is ultimately the biggest problem of ME2.

Well... not ALL of them have daddy issues. Three do. *thinks* Yeah, three. Did we need original backstories? Not really. What is turly original these days anyway? I enjoyed the vast majority of the ME2 squadmembers. Only Jacob and Jack I didn't really like.

As for the suicide mission, no, you could actually make thier deaths handicap the player and MEAN something. It's the whole "consequences" bit. Don't save Tali? The Quarians pledge less support. Zaeed? No Blue Sons support. Mordin? Salarians, etc. 

The plot wasn't completely stagnant. Shepard gathered the best the Galaxy could muster and he forged a team out of it, maybe. If you lose most of them, or get yourself killed, well, sucks to be you. We also stop a Reaper plot and then gain access to THE BEST TECHNOLOGY PLAYGROUND EVER. Seriously, all those wrecks by the Collector Base could've been used by either Cerberus or the Alliance to beef up our current tech. Not too mention we get data regardless after the Collector Base assualt, and you could keep the base itself. All of those could've provided MUCH better plot lines than "We found this thing on Mars. Yay... it can beat the Reapers."

ME2 paved the way, ME3 fell face first into the cement by using the Cruicible plot as it stands.

[Reorte]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Well... not ALL of them have daddy issues. Three do. *thinks* Yeah, three.

If you side with Morinth you can certainly claim that she had mummy issues. But I'm just being pedantic for the sake of it.

[The Heretic of Time]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

As for the suicide mission, no, you could actually make thier deaths handicap the player and MEAN something. It's the whole "consequences" bit. Don't save Tali? The Quarians pledge less support. Zaeed? No Blue Sons support. Mordin? Salarians, etc. 

Sorry, but that's just not realistic to expect at all. The writers had to write the story in such a way that any possible combination of living and death squad members is accounted for in ME3. The easiest and perhaps the only way to do that is to give the ME2 squad members minor cameos in ME2 so that it's easy to write around their potential death. 

Your idea would have worked with a squad of 6 people that can either potentially live or die, but not with 12. That's just waaaaaaay to much variables to keep track of.

The plot wasn't completely stagnant. Shepard gathered the best the Galaxy could muster and he forged a team out of it, maybe.

No, you overlook a very important part of the ME2 plot. Shepard gathered the best of  the galaxy for that particular suicide mission. That's the criteria The Illusive Man based your team on. But after the suicide mission? I don't see how your ME2 squad is any better than your ME1 squad. Grunt is not better than Wrex. Jack, Miranda and Samara are not better than Liara. Jacob is not better than Ashley or Kaidan. etc. etc. etc.

Shepard had a perfectly good team in ME1. Throwing that perfectly good team out of the airlock to replace them with new goons is not what I'd call moving the plot forward, at least not in a significant way.

We also stop a Reaper plot and then gain access to THE BEST TECHNOLOGY PLAYGROUND EVER. Seriously, all those wrecks by the Collector Base could've been used by either Cerberus or the Alliance to beef up our current tech.

You mean that tech get gets blown up if you're a stupid Paragon player? Yeah, the Renegades have that tech at their disposal, sure, but the Paragons don't. So for the Paragon players the ME2 plot is even more stagnant than the Renegade players. Besides, the plot doesn't do anything with the Collector base and the tech. After we blew up the Collectors and kicked baby Arnold back to darkspace we don't get to see or know what will happen with the tech we found.

You see, the main plot of Mass Effect is the upcomming Reaper invasion. The Reapers are our enemy. What do we learn about our enemy in ME2? Nothing, other than that the Reapers are made from organics, something any ****** could have guessed if he/she paid attention during the beacon visions in ME1.
Do we learn anything of value on how to stop the reaper sin ME2? No, we don't.
Like I said, the plot of ME2 feels more like a filler episode than an actual 2nd act of a trilogy.

Not too mention we get data regardless after the Collector Base assualt, and you could keep the base itself. All of those could've provided MUCH better plot lines than "We found this thing on Mars. Yay... it can beat the Reapers."

Well that is true I guess. But still, it annoys me completely that the galaxy in ME2 basically just sits still. No one is doing anything about the upcoming Reaper invasion. And the council retcon is just frustrating. At the end of ME1 the acknowledged the Reaper's existence, but now they deny the Reapers and just sit on their asses doing nothing!?!?

ME2 paved the way, ME3 fell face first into the cement by using the Cruicible plot as it stands.

Well yeah, no doubt ME3 is much worse than ME2. At least ME2 on itself was still enjoyable. I did not enjoy ME3 at all to be honest with you.

[The Heretic of Time]

Reorte wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Well... not ALL of them have daddy issues. Three do. *thinks* Yeah, three.

If you side with Morinth you can certainly claim that she had mummy issues. But I'm just being pedantic for the sake of it.

ME2 squad members with daddy issues:

1. Garrus
2. Tali
3. Grunt (to some degree)
4. Jacob
5. Miranda
6. Samara (daughter issues, pretty much the same thing)
7. Thane (son issues, pretty much the same thing)
8. Jack (the lack of having an actual father is her issue)


So my count comes at 4 people with daddy issues, and 4 with something similar to daddy issues.

The thing is, that the characters in ME2 just aren't that original as some people might think. At least their background stories aren't original, that's for sure. The only completely original and interesting characters in ME2 are Mordin and Legion.

[string3r]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I still enjoy the hell out of ME2's story. Curb-stomp Reaper proxies into the dirt, allowing you to build up a team of badasses to fight the Reapers later.

It's just ME3's fault for not doing a dang thing with it.

A team of badasses? You mean a team of one-dimensional characters with daddy issues. I absolutely love the heck out of some ME2 squad members, but you can't deny that whoever wrote those characters was not very good at making up original personal histories. The ME2 squad was not that interesting as some people believe it was.

But if we look at how BioWare handled your ME2 squad (every single one of them could die in the suicide mission), you should have realized that BioWare didn't have a choice but to bring the ME2 squad back to simple cameo roles in ME3.


But honestly, if we look at the plot of ME2, we see that it's completely stagnant. The plot of ME2 does not bring us forward in solving the upcoming Reaper invasion in any significant way. And THAT is ultimately the biggest problem of ME2.

I would say that the biggest problem with ME2 (aside from the underdeveloped plot) was with the derelict reaper. Why the hell didn't Shepard bring evidence of it to council? It just boggles my mind.

[The Heretic of Time]

string3r wrote...

I would say that the biggest problem with ME2 (aside from the underdeveloped plot) was with the derelict reaper. Why the hell didn't Shepard bring evidence of it to council? It just boggles my mind.

Good point. I'm sure that the council would just go and say "LOL it's just a geth ship Shepard get over your obsession herrrderpp." I mean really, the council in Mass Effect is not that smart. My little nephew is more intelligent than the political leaders in Mass Effect in fact. Even he understood the council are a bunch of morons, and he's 6 years old!

[CoolioThane]

IT thread - People who have faith in Bioware
This thread - People who are hating on Bioware

Coooooool

[katness]

I think that the Crucible, Kai Lange, and Star Kid are evidence enough for bad writing.

[Ticonderoga117]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Sorry, but that's just not realistic to expect at all. The writers had to write the story in such a way that any possible combination of living and death squad members is accounted for in ME3. The easiest and perhaps the only way to do that is to give the ME2 squad members minor cameos in ME2 so that it's easy to write around their potential death. 

Your idea would have worked with a squad of 6 people that can either potentially live or die, but not with 12. That's just waaaaaaay to much variables to keep track of.

Yes it is. They did it to a certain degree in ME3, just do something similiar. Raan/Xen for Tali, Wiks for Mordin, etc for any particular mission they would've been needed on, and you don't get that spot filled on your roster.

The key thing is: Was is possible for a two year dev time? No. Three? Maybe. Four? Yeah.

No, you overlook a very important part of the ME2 plot. Shepard gathered the best of  the galaxy for that particular suicide mission. That's the criteria The Illusive Man based your team on. But after the suicide mission? I don't see how your ME2 squad is any better than your ME1 squad. Grunt is not better than Wrex. Jack, Miranda and Samara are not better than Liara. Jacob is not better than Ashley or Kaidan. etc. etc. etc.

Shepard had a perfectly good team in ME1. Throwing that perfectly good team out of the airlock to replace them with new goons is not what I'd call moving the plot forward, at least not in a significant way.

Some, like Grunt, aren't better than your previous crew. Some are. Samara by herself beats Liara. And Shepard got a better crew in ME2. The best the Galaxy had to offer.

You mean that tech get gets blown up if you're a stupid Paragon player? Yeah, the Renegades have that tech at their disposal, sure, but the Paragons don't. So for the Paragon players the ME2 plot is even more stagnant than the Renegade players. Besides, the plot doesn't do anything with the Collector base and the tech. After we blew up the Collectors and kicked baby Arnold back to darkspace we don't get to see or know what will happen with the tech we found.

You see, the main plot of Mass Effect is the upcomming Reaper invasion. The Reapers are our enemy. What do we learn about our enemy in ME2? Nothing, other than that the Reapers are made from organics, something any ****** could have guessed if he/she paid attention during the beacon visions in ME1.
Do we learn anything of value on how to stop the reaper sin ME2? No, we don't.
Like I said, the plot of ME2 feels more like a filler episode than an actual 2nd act of a trilogy.

No no no, I meant the giant starship graveyard around the Collector base for that example. It is always there, it just sometimes has a Collector base in it if your stupid and trust TIM. Also, you bring up exactly my point, BioWare did NOTHING with that tech, except give it to Cerberus and make them generic mooks.

We COULD'VE learned something that ME3 would've shined a light on, but no. Cruicible ahoy-hoy!

Well that is true I guess. But still, it annoys me completely that the galaxy in ME2 basically just sits still. No one is doing anything about the upcoming Reaper invasion. And the council retcon is just frustrating. At the end of ME1 the acknowledged the Reaper's existence, but now they deny the Reapers and just sit on their asses doing nothing!?!?

Yeah... mildly annoying, but ME3 could've shown that they WERE preparing, they just didn't tell Shepard because he's... you know, working for Cerberus?

Well yeah, no doubt ME3 is much worse than ME2. At least ME2 on itself was still enjoyable. I did not enjoy ME3 at all to be honest with you.

At first I was , then the endings made me , then I look back at the game's other flaws and .

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

string3r wrote...

I
would say that the biggest problem with ME2 (aside from the
underdeveloped plot) was with the derelict reaper. Why the hell didn't
Shepard bring evidence of it to council? It just boggles my mind.

Good
point. I'm sure that the council would just go and say "LOL it's just a
geth ship Shepard get over your obsession herrrderpp." I mean really,
the council in Mass Effect is not that smart. My little nephew is more
intelligent than the political leaders in Mass Effect in fact. Even he
understood the council are a bunch of morons, and he's 6 years old!

Problem, the Reaper corpse is crushed like a beer can and WAY deep inside the atmosphere of a gas giant. A wee bit hard to get any more evidence off of it.

[Oxspit]

Vox Draco wrote...

Interesting course this thread has taken...actually I am all for the IT, I love this idea, but even if it was true, maybe even planned from the start and everything now just a "placeholder" I do NOT consider the entire plotline of Mass Effect from ME2 onwards as very well written...because it really has a lot of issues not handled very well 

.......
 

Yeah, I actually agree. I quite like IT , too, as an idea, or at least I quite like the idea that Shepard will be finally resisting indoctrination himself by the end. And it's such a powerful tool, I'm a little surprised it doesn't feature more prominently in the story (I'm not really sure I can bring myself to counting TIM here... that was all pretty incoherent).

What I hate, though, is the whole 'everything was an illusion' thing followed by waking up and insert new ending here idea that people are pushing (i.e. the indoctrination is also kind of just another superflous detail to but the writers a little more time). I'm glad there's no real evidence for that.

Personally, if I had to try and repair the ending with minimal change, I think I'd make much more heavy use of indoctrination in general, though. Best I can come up with at present is something along the following lines:

1) Scrap the star-child. If shepard is to talk to some form of the child that's been bugging his dreams in the end what he's actually talking to is a figment of his borderline-indoctrinated imagination.
2) The reapers themselves aren't quite so immune from indoctrination as we may have been led to believe. Their minds aren't eventually destroyed by it like ours would be, but it's a powerful thing. They're not really the masters of it or the indoctrinators per se. This maybe goes some way to describing why the hell the reapers do what they do even though we've met them initially as free independant strong-willed individuals. I don't think it goes the whole way, but it's maybe a start. I'm not going to dignify the organics vs synthetics thing as presented in ME3 with a response, frankly.
3) The reapers themselves designed the crucible. It's design conspicuously survives because ultimately/sub-consciously they actually want it to.
4) The crucible is actually an indoctrination breaker. This is what they designed it for. They can't fire it themselves, though, they need a catalyst for that.
5) The catalyst is Shepard him/her self (or, rather, any mind not yet so enthralled it can't fire the crucible, Shepard needn't be a 'chosen one'), if he can manage to shake himself/herself free long enough to do so.
6) Firing the crucible frees the reapers, fundamentally changing the nature of the conflict and destroying the reapers as a unified single-mindedly genocidal force. It doesn't instantaneously make everything better, but it makes surviving the cycle possible.
7) Possibly you could use this to explain ME2 a little better. Humans are painted (sort of, at least) as diverse individualists who have managed to stand up to and kill a reaper. Maybe they hope there will be something correspondingly special and free about a human reaper, and that's both why they were so keen to create one and why they wanted to include Shepard therein so badly. Like the OP, though, I have a hard time understanding why your choice at the end of ME2 was destroy base or hand it to TIM, rather than hand it to TIM or hand it to the alliance.

That's probably about the best I can do at the moment. I don't think it's that great, though, to be honest. Like I say I think we're in something of a corner at this point.

As far as I can tell, the only thing ME2 actually set us up for in the third act is certain extinction barring something truly miraculous (or wildly implausible, which is kind of what we got). The only major advantage they've really given us as opposed to other cycles is the delay and fore-knowledge afforded to us by the Protheans but they've almost gone out of their way to make sure that wasn't used at all. They actually seemed to use ME2 as a fast-forward button to reaching the problem they had no idea how to solve.

[Blueprotoss]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I still enjoy the hell out of ME2's story. Curb-stomp Reaper proxies into the dirt, allowing you to build up a team of badasses to fight the Reapers later.

It's just ME3's fault for not doing a dang thing with it.

Its not really the fault of ME3 since it did improve upon ME2 and "fan" expectations were set way too high.

[Ticonderoga117]

Blueprotoss wrote...
Its not really the fault of ME3 since it did improve upon ME2 and "fan" expectations were set way too high.

Improved combat, sure.
Level upgrades... sure.
That's about it.

Expectations were just fine, BioWare just didn't deliver. Lack of time, money, or will. Not sure which.

[Blueprotoss]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

You just don't get it do you?

Yet you act as if ME3 was the only game to have a small ending contraversy with its "fans".

Heretic_Hanar wrote... 


First of all, learn the meaning of 'straw man' and 'red herring', I doubt you know what those 2 words mean.

I do while you don't based on you hiding behind insults.

Heretic_Hanar wrote... 

Second, the problems that ME3 has goes way beyond just a terrible ending. First of all, we're speaking about the final act of a trilogy here. You can't end a trilogy like this. It's just bad. Second, it's not just the ending of ME3 that is bad, the entire plot of ME3 is just plain bad.

You forget that writing is subjective and ME3 isn't the end by a long shot, but its the last full game of Shepard's arc whether you like it or not.

Heretic_Hanar wrote... 

Also, I've played all those games you just listed, and none of them had such a horrible plot and ending as ME2. All of those games you listed had decent plots with decent endings. None of the games you listed above had as much of a fan oproar as ME3 did. Well, maybe Halo 2 did. But Halo 2's ending was forgiven because it was only the middle act of a trilogy. We knew Halo 3 would finish the story and tie everything up.

Ironically you used a straw-mann here especially when Halo 3 was far from finishing its story to tie everything up.  There was also another straw-mann with ME3 did have a very small uproar especially with a game called Fallout 3.  Again you can't deny that RE5, FF7, FF10, F13, FF13-2, Starcraft 2, Warcraft 3, Halo 2, Halo 3, Gears 3, Deus Ex, Deus Ex: Human Revoltion, Half-Life 2: Episode 2, ME1, ME2, DA, DA2, KotOR, and KotOR2 didn't have an ending contraversy with some of  their "fans".  Btw those are just a few examples.

[Blueprotoss]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Its not really the fault of ME3 since it did improve upon ME2 and "fan" expectations were set way too high.

Improved combat, sure.
Level upgrades... sure.
That's about it.

Expectations were just fine, BioWare just didn't deliver. Lack of time, money, or will. Not sure which.

You should check out your "way too high expectation" just like some of the other "fans" based on how that is the main reason why you and others feel this way.  I expected just another ME game and I wasn't disappointed for the part because its a solid improvement from ME2.  I won't lie that I have had some "way too high expectations" while as soon as I looked at them from a different angle then I was able to change my mind or I just moved on.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:08 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Blueprotoss wrote...
You should check out your "way too high expectation" just like some of the other "fans" based on how that is the main reason why you and others feel this way.  I expected just another ME game and I wasn't disappointed for the part because its a solid improvement from ME2.  I won't lie that I have had some "way too high expectations" while as soon as I looked at them from a different angle then I was able to change my mind or I just moved on.

To me, it's not even at the same level as ME1 or 2.
I expected a story that made a decent amount of sense. Instead, Cruicible.
I can tolerate a lot of things, but killing your own lore? No.

[Blueprotoss]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

To me, it's not even at the same level as ME1 or 2.
I expected a story that made a decent amount of sense. Instead, Cruicible.
I can tolerate a lot of things, but killing your own lore? No.

It sounds like you're interested in a conventional way to kill off every Reaper, which that would contradict all the lore in ME's universe since they're the most adanced race in the Milkly Way.  Hopefully you don't say the Crucible or the Catalyst are a Deus Ex Machina based on how they were annonced in the beginning of ME3 on Mars.  Btw I'm glad it wasn't "way too high expectations".

[Ticonderoga117]

Blueprotoss wrote...
It sounds like you're interested in a conventional way to kill off every Reaper, which that would contradict all the lore in ME's universe since they're the most adanced race in the Milkly Way.  Hopefully you don't say the Crucible or the Catalyst are a Deus Ex Machina based on how they were annonced in the beginning of ME3 on Mars.  Btw I'm glad it wasn't "way too high expectations".

No, because we killed two rather easily. The Catalyst literally appeared with one line of foreshadowing and is SO contrived he is the DEM from hell and the Cruicible is a badly written plot device.

[The Heretic of Time]

Blueprotoss wrote...

You should check out your "way too high expectation" just like some of the other "fans" based on how that is the main reason why you and others feel this way.  I expected just another ME game and I wasn't disappointed for the part because its a solid improvement from ME2.  I won't lie that I have had some "way too high expectations" while as soon as I looked at them from a different angle then I was able to change my mind or I just moved on.

Blueprotoss, the way how you keep falling back to the same line over and over again (that our expectations were way too high and that we're unable to please) and the way you put "fans" between quotationmarks really rubs me the wrong way. I suppose you're one of those bio-drones who thinks he's a better or more true fan because you actually liked that ******-poor game ME3.

If you think ME3 was a great game with awesome story, good for you, more power to you, I'm happy for you. But some of us fans actually did not like ME3 at all and if you actually carefully read the posts of those people you see some very good and solid reasons why these people did not like ME3 at all. That does not make us any less of a fan than you mr. Blueprotoss. In fact, I dare say it makes us more a fan than you, because we expected something truly great from BioWare, we trusted in them, but what we got is an half-assed rushed game that is made to appeal to the so-called "Call of Duty crowd", or CoD crowd for short. That dissapointed a lot of us fans, true fans.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:04 .

[Blueprotoss]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
It sounds like you're interested in a conventional way to kill off every Reaper, which that would contradict all the lore in ME's universe since they're the most adanced race in the Milkly Way.  Hopefully you don't say the Crucible or the Catalyst are a Deus Ex Machina based on how they were annonced in the beginning of ME3 on Mars.  Btw I'm glad it wasn't "way too high expectations".

No, because we killed two rather easily. The Catalyst literally appeared with one line of foreshadowing and is SO contrived he is the DEM from hell and the Cruicible is a badly written plot device.

Sovreign was far from easy to based on how 10% of the 1st Aliance Fleet got destroyed along with the whole 2nd Aliance Fleet.  The dreadnought on Rannoch wasn't easy either based on how it took most of the Quarian Fleet along with the Normandy 2 to kill it.  The other dreadnought on Tuchanka wasn't that easy for the Krogans either based on how Shepard needed to summon the "Mother of all Thrasher Maws".  Really an unconvential weapon like the Crucible and Catalyst were the only options unless if we followed Joker's idea build a gun to shoot Thrasher Maws.  Again writing is subjective.

[ImperatorMortis]

I wonder how many more bad writing threads will be made in the next month.

Ten? Twenty? I'm sure at least that much, with a couple of "witty" quips about space magic thrown in for good measure. How many times can people talk about the same thing before they get tired?

I'm genuinely curious.

[xsdob]

This thread proves IT, because it's writer is a hanar, and hanar are easily indoctrinated.

[Ticonderoga117]

Blueprotoss wrote...
Sovreign was far from easy to based on how 10% of the 1st Aliance Fleet got destroyed along with the whole 2nd Aliance Fleet.

Whut?
Fifth fleet attacked Soverign and only lost 8 ships.

[KiwiQuiche]

This one approves of this thread.