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[Xilizhra]

While I disagree about Sten being evil and robotic and Tallis being a better face, you raise a good point. I actually think that he ought to be involved in the Qunari storyline, attempting to convince the Qunari not to attack Thedas.

Would Sten do that? He seemed completely on board with the conquest of Thedas.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

For one thing, he's the perfect character to die in a way that creates emotion without actually affecting the plot very much. For another, I honestly don't like him and never have. Tallis is a much better "face" for the qunari; Sten is just kind of evil and robotic.

Sten's not evil and robotic! He's actually a very caring person, and he will admit to the Warden that some of his views have changed.

Plus, Bioware has hinted in the Black Emporium that he'd be important to the story of Thedas. And considering hornless Kossith are meant for greatness, I can't see him dying. I can see him becoming the new Arishok, seeing as we either killed the current one or let him go, wherein he proved that he was unfit to continue in his role -- my money's on it being due to him being older then we thought.

Anyway, Sten can't die!

Xilizhra wrote...

I live in Texas, and hate it.

I probably couldn't live there, what with the ungodly heat it no doubt endures. Hell, I can barely tolerate the UP of Michigan these days because it's often in the high 80s or 90s.

thats1evildude wrote...

My sovereigns are on Maric

That's my guess as well, though he can't die considering he has the requisite beard of awesomeness.

Though... Duncan also had a beard of awesomeness and he died (or so we're led to believe . I refuse to accept DG's WoG on Duncan being dead).

[Most Definitely Sane]

Xilizhra wrote...

While I disagree about Sten being evil and robotic and Tallis being a better face, you raise a good point. I actually think that he ought to be involved in the Qunari storyline, attempting to convince the Qunari not to attack Thedas.

Would Sten do that? He seemed completely on board with the conquest of Thedas.

I do not know, but I believe that if he's friends with the Warden, it changed his view a little bit, especially since he seemed fine with the whole celebration at the end and may have gone back with him/her.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Would Sten do that? He seemed completely on board with the conquest of Thedas.

Not... exactly.

He's certain that it will happen one day, but he hopes that when it does happen he's either not alive to witness it and/or won't see/seek out the Warden on the field of battle, due to how much he respects him/her.

He can say both, but he'll inevitably say one or the other. Might be due to giving him his sword before going into discussions on the Qunari way of life with him, as that's what I've always done.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:53 .

[Most Definitely Sane]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Plus, Bioware has hinted in the Black Emporium that he'd be important to the story of Thedas. And considering hornless Kossith are meant for greatness, I can't see him dying. I can see him becoming the new Arishok, seeing as we either killed the current one or let him go, wherein he proved that he was unfit to continue in his role -- my money's on it being due to him being older then we thought.

Anyway, Sten can't die!

Really? How? I hope he was hinted, I love that guy! I was also hoping he'd become Arishok.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

My sovereigns are on Maric

That's my guess as well, though he can't die considering he has the requisite beard of awesomeness.

Maybe Maric shaved?

Modifié par Most Definitely Sane, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:49 .

[TEWR]

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

Would Sten do that? He seemed completely on board with the conquest of Thedas.

Can't remember. I think it was in a codex entry called the Emergent Compendium.

The stuff about him becoming the new Arishok is simply my own personal speculation mind you, but Sten is mentioned in the Emergent Compendium.

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

Maybe Maric shaved?

It'd just grow back immediately, twice as awesome.

[Xilizhra]

Sten's not evil and robotic! He's actually a very caring person, and he will admit to the Warden that some of his views have changed.

Plus, Bioware has hinted in the Black Emporium that he'd be important to the story of Thedas. And considering hornless Kossith are meant for greatness, I can't see him dying. I can see him becoming the new Arishok, seeing as we either killed the current one or let him go, wherein he proved that he was unfit to continue in his role -- my money's on it being due to him being older then we thought.

Anyway, Sten can't die!

Do recall that Sten supports the Qun, the ideological system that supports everything from brutal wars of faith to chemical lobotomies for slaves to gruesome bondage of mages. Tallis does too, of course, but she seems far more conflicted about all of this (and I suspect she screwed up a bona fide qunari operation in MotA, so I suspect she's in deep trouble). The Qun is something of a hideous blight on Thedas, and Sten is, well, one of its supporters.

Not... exactly.

He's certain that it will happen one day, but he hopes that when it does happen he's either not alive to witness it or won't see the Warden on the field of battle, due to how much he respects him/her.

Well, good, he respects one person. I can't say much for the fate of anyone else he meets, especially since the one person he actually befriended in the party was the resident sociopath golem.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

I personally want Sten to die, if someone has to. Isabela's an LI, and hopefully Bioware learned its lesson from the Thane debacle in ME3.

She is Fenris' love interest if Hawke romances someone else. I can see Varric hanging out with Isabela on her new ship in a post-mage rebel ending for Hawke (since they would be outlaws), but what about Fenris? She does offer him a position on her new ship.

[Most Definitely Sane]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Can't remember. I think it was in a codex entry called the Emergent Compendium.

The stuff about him becoming the new Arishok is simply my own personal speculation mind you, but Sten is mentioned in the Emergent Compendium.

Interesting. And that thing about the envoy...I wonder...They can't kill him with a strange caption like that unanswered.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

Maybe Maric shaved?

It'd just grow back immediately, twice as awesome.

But if it's too awesome, wouldn't he still die because he's too awesome to live?

Modifié par Most Definitely Sane, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:57 .

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Do recall that Sten supports the Qun, the ideological system that supports everything from brutal wars of faith to chemical lobotomies for slaves to gruesome bondage of mages. Tallis does too, of course, but she seems far more conflicted about all of this (and I suspect she screwed up a bona fide qunari operation in MotA, so I suspect she's in deep trouble). The Qun is something of a hideous blight on Thedas, and Sten is, well, one of its supporters

The gruesome bondage of Mages is something that I've argued before. I've argued from the (possibly erroneous) perspective that the Qunari do it out of a warped sense of caring for the Mage, which if right would be arguably better then the Templar/Chantry treatment of Mages.

Not inherently evil, but not inherently good either.

But I don't know how valid my interpretation of it was.

Now, all that said do recall how Sten will recount a tale of how he investigated the disappearances and murders of non-combatants by the Tal-Vashoth where he says that even in the worst parts of the jungles of Seheron, some members of the village would go out in search of the missing person that was once a friend.

Also take note that by WoG, Sten never forgives himself for killing the farmers that helped him, because he not only cast the Qunari in the light that everyone sees them as -- horrific murderous giants -- but also killed non-combatants -- people he was sworn to defend in his time in Seheron.

Also recall how he considers his fellow members of the Antaam his brothers, what Tallis will say about the Qunari philosophy, and that even Alistair says that the philosophy isn't as vile as the Chantry made it out to be when he discussed it with Sten.

And IIRC, prior to Koslun bringing his knowledge to his people, the society they lived in was a travesty. One filled with despair and inequality. When he brought the knowledge to them, everyone was happy.

Their belief may be flawed in some aspects, but I don't think it's inherently evil.

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, good, he respects one person. I can't say much for the fate of anyone else he meets, especially since the one person he actually befriended in the party was the resident sociopath golem.

Well, I think he befriended everyone in the party -- or for people like Morrigan, wasn't hostile too -- but only considered Shale and (possibly) the Warden his kadans -- "brother" in the Qunari tongue.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juillet 2012 - 12:12 .

[TEWR]

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

Interesting. And that thing about the envoy...I wonder...They can't kill him with a strange caption like that unanswered.

Indeed. Sten is really the only person we've met with white braids that was also a hornless Qunari, so they can't just leave it like that.

"The envoy lied honestly". I have theories on what it means, but what does it mean?!

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

But if it's too awesome, wouldn't he still die because he's too awesome to live?

Not quite. The level of awesomeness might be too much for him to initially handle, but then he'd ascend to a more awesome plane of existence.

[Xilizhra]

The gruesome bondage of Mages is something that I've argued before. I've argued from the (possibly erroneous) perspective that the Qunari do it out of a warped sense of caring for the Mage, which if right would be arguably better then the Templar/Chantry treatment of Mages.

That's really, really reaching. If the qunari can't see the suffering that it causes, and I'm assuming they're not all insane, they're so willfully blind that I can't call it any better than outright malice.

Now, all that said do recall how Sten will recount a tale of how he investigated the disappearances and murders of non-combatants by the Tal-Vashoth where he says that even in the worst parts of the jungles of Seheron, some members of the village would go out in search of the missing person that was once a friend.

Well, yeah. The qunari aren't insane, they still have the ability to socialize like free-minded people do.

Also take note that by WoG, Sten never forgives himself for killing the farmers that helped him, because he not only cast the Qunari in the light that everyone sees them as -- horrific murderous giants -- but also killed non-combatants -- people he was sworn to defend in his role in the Qun.

Were he under orders to do so, I'm sure he'd have killed them without a second thought. His action damaged the perception of the Qun as well as his own mission to get his fetish sword back; it had nothing to do with taking life.

Also recall how he considers his fellow members of the Antaam his brothers, what Tallis will say about the Qunari philosophy, and that even Alistair says that the philosophy isn't as vile as the Chantry made it out to be when he discussed it with Sten.

The Chantry makes everything it doesn't agree with out to be decadently and willfully malicious; that's not a high bar to clear. And brotherhood is just a sign of military order, not of morality.

And IIRC, prior to Koslun bringing his knowledge to his people, the society they lived in was a travesty. One filled with despair and inequality. When he brought the knowledge to them, everyone was happy.

Clearly. Those who suffer are excellent recruiting opportunities for new cults.

[Most Definitely Sane]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

Interesting. And that thing about the envoy...I wonder...They can't kill him with a strange caption like that unanswered.

Indeed. Sten is really the only person we've met with white braids that was also a hornless Qunari, so they can't just leave it like that.

"The envoy lied honestly". I have theories on what it means, but what does it mean?!

I have a theory, but it sucks.
Maybe he was involved with some form of cargo and purposely destroyed it?
That's my theory. My detailess theory.
How about yours?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

But if it's too awesome, wouldn't he still die because he's too awesome to live?

Not quite. The level of awesomeness might be too much for him to initially handle, but then he'd ascend to a more awesome plane of existence.

But then he'd be gone.

[Most Definitely Sane]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also take note that by WoG, Sten never forgives himself for killing the farmers that helped him, because he not only cast the Qunari in the light that everyone sees them as -- horrific murderous giants -- but also killed non-combatants -- people he was sworn to defend in his role in the Qun.

Were he under orders to do so, I'm sure he'd have killed them without a second thought. His action damaged the perception of the Qun as well as his own mission to get his fetish sword back; it had nothing to do with taking life.

Sten likes kitties. He and Leliana talk about this.
This gives me reason to believe he is not as heartless as he appears. The Qunari may be dutiful, but his affection for kittens leads me to think that he would be remorseful towards his killing of a family, duty or not. He feels guilt as it is. 

I believe that Sten is one of those guys that hide all their soft feelings like guilt under other feelings to seem strong. It appears to me that is what most Qunari, barring Tallis, do. 

[Xilizhra]

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also take note that by WoG, Sten never forgives himself for killing the farmers that helped him, because he not only cast the Qunari in the light that everyone sees them as -- horrific murderous giants -- but also killed non-combatants -- people he was sworn to defend in his role in the Qun.

Were he under orders to do so, I'm sure he'd have killed them without a second thought. His action damaged the perception of the Qun as well as his own mission to get his fetish sword back; it had nothing to do with taking life.

Sten likes kitties. He and Leliana talk about this.
This gives me reason to believe he is not as heartless as he appears. The Qunari may be dutiful, but his affection for kittens leads me to think that he would be remorseful towards his killing of a family, duty or not. He feels guilt as it is. 

I believe that Sten is one of those guys that hide all their soft feelings like guilt under other feelings to seem strong. It appears to me that is what most Qunari, barring Tallis, do. 

Murderers are people too. Have you seen The Untouchables? Specifically the scene where Al Capone is crying at an opera while his troops are out killing people? The cognitive dissonance needed to be both positively emotional and murderous is unfamiliar to most people, but I have little doubt that the qunari, at least their soldiers, are adept at it.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's really, really reaching. If the qunari can't see the suffering that it causes, and I'm assuming they're not all insane, they're so willfully blind that I can't call it any better than outright malice.

I don't think it's reaching too much. The codex entry on Saarebas tells us a bit about it, which I then used as a basis for my interpretation.

The Qun teaches that all living things have a place and a purpose, and only when they are in the correct place and in control of their own self may a being attain balance. When balance is lost, suffering follows. Mastery of the self is, therefore, the first and greatest duty.

Those born with magic are at a terrible disadvantage, for demons can always rob them of their self. Because of this, the Qunari name them saarebas, meaning "dangerous thing", and treat them with the utmost caution. Saarebas must be carefully controlled by someone else, an arvaarad, "one who holds back evil", because they cannot truly control themselves. The evil is not the mage, but the loss of the mage, the loss of the mage’s self, and the suffering that inevitably follows.

The Qunari pity and honor the saarebas, for striving while under constant threat from within is truly selfless, which is the highest virtue of the Qun.

—From the writings of the seer of Kont-aar, 8:41 Blessed

Using that, it seemed to make sense.

Xilizhra wrote...

Were he under orders to do so, I'm sure he'd have killed them without a second thought. His action damaged the perception of the Qun as well as his own mission to get his fetish sword back; it had nothing to do with taking life.

Would he? I'm not so certain. His job was to defend non-combatants. Would he be content to kill non-combatants, going against the very thing he was told to do?

I can see other Qunari doing so, but Sten... I see Sten as possibly being conflicted on it. Or if not conflicted, trying to get them to convert through persuasion.

And no, his actions did have to do with taking life. He admits that what he's done is horrible, and here's the dev quote I was talking about:

Mary Kirby wrote...

The Woldan wrote...

If the Qunari think of other races as unenlightened foreigners and ''things'', why did Sten show some kind of guilt/remorse after killing those things eeeerrmmm.......humans?

They were things, but they were alive, and while they were alive, they had the potential to grow beyond mere bas. Qunari don't waste people unnecessarily, remember. And considering his job is protecting non-combatants (as he tells you, when he talks about the Tal-vashoth attacks in Seheron) he personally considers it a particularly heinous crime to harm unarmed civilians. It is safe to say that he never forgives himself for killing the farmers.

The Chantry makes everything it doesn't agree with out to be decadently and willfully malicious; that's not a high bar to clear

True.

And brotherhood is just a sign of military order, not of morality.

It's not just a sign of military order. People find their family to be those ties beyond blood in everyday life, civilian or soldier.

Clearly. Those who suffer are excellent recruiting opportunities for new cults.

Koslun was originally a part of that society, so he knew full well the suffering that happened.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 juillet 2012 - 12:38 .

[Most Definitely Sane]

Xilizhra wrote...

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also take note that by WoG, Sten never forgives himself for killing the farmers that helped him, because he not only cast the Qunari in the light that everyone sees them as -- horrific murderous giants -- but also killed non-combatants -- people he was sworn to defend in his role in the Qun.

Were he under orders to do so, I'm sure he'd have killed them without a second thought. His action damaged the perception of the Qun as well as his own mission to get his fetish sword back; it had nothing to do with taking life.

Sten likes kitties. He and Leliana talk about this.
This gives me reason to believe he is not as heartless as he appears. The Qunari may be dutiful, but his affection for kittens leads me to think that he would be remorseful towards his killing of a family, duty or not. He feels guilt as it is. 

I believe that Sten is one of those guys that hide all their soft feelings like guilt under other feelings to seem strong. It appears to me that is what most Qunari, barring Tallis, do. 

Murderers are people too. Have you seen The Untouchables? Specifically the scene where Al Capone is crying at an opera while his troops are out killing people? The cognitive dissonance needed to be both positively emotional and murderous is unfamiliar to most people, but I have little doubt that the qunari, at least their soldiers, are adept at it.

Sten is a pretty large guy, and is definitely very strong. In the Sacred Ashes trailer, didn't he shove multiple darkspawn off a cliff at once?

In Lothering, he's locked in a cage, as you know. He can probably escape it very easily, but he was locked in their for the murder of that family and he chooses to stay in there. The entire reason he got out and went with the Warden was for atonement. That requires some amount of guilt.

[Xilizhra]

Would he? I'm not so certain. His job was to defend non-combatants. Would he be content to kill non-combatants, going against the very thing he was told to do?

To defend qunari noncombatants. Not bas, so far as I know.

And no, his actions did have to do with taking life. He admits that what he's done is horrible, and here's the dev quote I was talking about:

Hmmm. Noted, I suppose. Though it doesn't help much with the Qun's other atrocities.

It's not just a sign of military order. People find their family to be those ties beyond blood in everyday life, civilian or soldier.

Yes, but that's more just socialization than morality.

Koslun was originally a part of that society, so he knew full well the suffering that happened.

Clearly. He knew just what to say to draw the kossith into his cult.
You know who he reminds me of? Sheng-Ji Yang from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. The Human Hive seems a lot like the Qun in many ways. Consider:
"Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

[TEWR]

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

I have a theory, but it sucks.
Maybe he was involved with some form of cargo and purposely destroyed it?
That's my theory. My detailess theory.
How about yours?

Mine dealt with the unavoidable Qunari invasion. Without more details, it's pretty much left at that.

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

But then he'd be gone.

He died for our lack of awesomeness, but he is omnipresent with his awesomeness, as we all seek to strive to live up to his level of awesome.

I think we're creating a new religion.

[Xilizhra]

The Qun teaches that all living things have a place and a purpose, and only when they are in the correct place and in control of their own self may a being attain balance. When balance is lost, suffering follows. Mastery of the self is, therefore, the first and greatest duty.

Those born with magic are at a terrible disadvantage, for demons can always rob them of their self. Because of this, the Qunari name them saarebas, meaning "dangerous thing", and treat them with the utmost caution. Saarebas must be carefully controlled by someone else, an arvaarad, "one who holds back evil", because they cannot truly control themselves. The evil is not the mage, but the loss of the mage, the loss of the mage’s self, and the suffering that inevitably follows.

The Qunari pity and honor the saarebas, for striving while under constant threat from within is truly selfless, which is the highest virtue of the Qun.

—From the writings of the seer of Kont-aar, 8:41 Blessed

Worthless garbage. That's a problem with the Qun: if they find a solution for something that kind of works, even if it's morally reprehensible, they just keep doing that and don't try to fix it because they don't consider the cost to those beneath them to be of any value calculating. There are far better ways to handle this, that the qunari might know of if they considered any other society to hold something that they could learn from.

[Most Definitely Sane]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

I have a theory, but it sucks.
Maybe he was involved with some form of cargo and purposely destroyed it?
That's my theory. My detailess theory.
How about yours?

Mine dealt with the unavoidable Qunari invasion. Without more details, it's pretty much left at that.

Your theory's better.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

But then he'd be gone.

He died for our lack of awesomeness, but he is omnipresent with his awesomeness, as we all seek to strive to live up to his level of awesome.

I think we're creating a new religion.

Maricology?

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

To defend qunari noncombatants. Not bas, so far as I know.

He'd probably be instructed to defend them anyway, as they'd be converted to the Qun. The Qunari don't waste life, after all.

So he might be told to defend them after they're gathered up in a spot, but I doubt he'd be the one told to kill them if they resisted the Qun.

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmmm. Noted, I suppose. Though it doesn't help much with the Qun's other atrocities.

True, the treatment of Mages is abhorrent -- motives for it notwithstanding, it's certainly abhorrent -- and the use of qamek to more or less Tranquil people into obedience is also horrid. So too is the hunt for all Tal-Vashoth, rather then just the violent ones.

And the relentless need to convert everyone, rather then simply taking those who convert willingly -- like Saemus -- and only forcibly converting those people they conquered in wars other people started.

It's all bad and in need of reform, but I still wouldn't call the Qun itself inherently malicious.

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but that's more just socialization than morality.

I'd argue that the ability to socialize deals with morality.

Clearly. He knew just what to say to draw the kossith into his cult.
You know who he reminds me of? Sheng-Ji Yang from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. The Human Hive seems a lot like the Qun in many ways. Consider:
"Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

That's actually a very apt comparison. I love Alpha Centauri. I'm surprised I never saw the similarities between what the two say.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Worthless garbage. That's a problem with the Qun: if they find a solution for something that kind of works, even if it's morally reprehensible, they just keep doing that and don't try to fix it because they don't consider the cost to those beneath them to be of any value calculating. There are far better ways to handle this, that the qunari might know of if they considered any other society to hold something that they could learn from.

I won't deny that they could stand to learn a few things from other societies with free mages.

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

Maricology?

Wouldn't that be the study of Maric, rather then the worship of Maric? I think the more appropriate term would be... Maricism.

A subset of it is Loghainism.

[Xilizhra]

It's all bad and in need of reform, but I still wouldn't call the Qun itself inherently malicious.

I think the fact that practically every fundamental aspect of the Qun needs to be reworked or abolished means that it is, in fact, inherently malicious.

I'd argue that the ability to socialize deals with morality.

Kind of, but if you consider one group actual people and another group not, you can socialize with one and slaughter the other with impunity.

That's actually a very apt comparison. I love Alpha Centauri. I'm surprised I never saw the similarities between what the two say.

Of course, Yang is a single immortal dictator, so it's not perfect, but still... which means, I think, that the main conflict is the Hive vs. the Lord's Believers. Oh dear.

[DarkDragon777]

As long as Isabela dies, I'll be happy.