76 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain Cornhole]

Generally they Qunari regaurd women as being brighter and more intelligent then their male counterparts. Thus it is common to find female Qunair in positions of authority, while the men are tasked with the dangerous grunt jobs.

Now some have cried foul, accusing Bioware and the Qunair of pig-headedness and sexism. Argueing that the Qun treats women like cattle; suggesting women are too weak to carry out the physically demanding tasks generally assigned to the males of the Qun.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Qunari have very sexist beliefs! They should all die! 

However recent article in the UK dailymail seems to back up what the Qunari have been saying for years. Women are indeed smarter then men. The Qunari recognize this fact of life, that is why they respect and value the Qun's females. Why let someone's tallets be put to waste? If a male Qunair is physically stronger, let him be a warrior, if a female Qunair is smarter let her take on a logistics role. 

Some say bigots say this is sexism, I say it's gender equality.

[AndrahilAdrian]

This makes sense, because IQ tests are a perfect measure of genetically predetermined intelligence, averages apply to every individual with no exceptions, statistical trends justify coercive policies, and the world of Thedas is a perfect analogy for the real world.

[Captain Cornhole]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

This makes sense, because IQ tests are a perfect measure of genetically predetermined intelligence, averages apply to every individual with no exceptions, statistical trends justify coercive policies, and the world of Thedas is a perfect analogy for the real world.

your just a bigot

[PizzaThe Hutt]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

This makes sense, because IQ tests are a perfect measure of genetically predetermined intelligence, averages apply to every individual with no exceptions, statistical trends justify coercive policies, and the world of Thedas is a perfect analogy for the real world.

your just a bigot

Could you elaborate on that?  How exactly is that bigotry?

[Reznore57]

I won't deny that women are mostly more intelligent than men
But anytime you try to force gender into a role , it's sexism.
Things like "boys don't cry " are just as stupid as "woman can't be strong warrior".

Now about the Qun , I don't mind.It's not something they do specially to woman because they think they're weaker or anything..
Actually some woman "rule" among the qun , so it's not about "hey ladies go in the kitchen and shut up"
It's just pretty much how their whole society work.
Everything is labelled ,put into a box , and ready to go.

It's a nice utopia on paper , but humans are humans not bots.
I guess one time or another , we will have the chance to see the downside of it all.

[Lazy Jer]

It's not gender equality. Gender equality would be giving both genders an equal shot at one job or another. If you want to see gender equality look at the society in just about the rest of Thedas. You see just as many woman being knights as men and they don't even give them separate names (Sir or Dame), but rather they call every knight "Ser". You also see both women and men rising to the ranks as high as Knight-Commander. That's gender equality. Now true you don't see that in Chantry where only women can hold the high church offices, but most everywhere else, you do.

What the Qunari do is just section it up. "You ladies go here, you gentelmen go here." It's not the same thing. That's the problem with the Qunari though. Women are not warriors, if you loose your sword you're a coward and should be killed, the Qun is the truth so all must accept it. The Qunari tend to take the Qun as a set of rules rather then a set of guidelines.

[Big I]

Qunari women can't be soldiers, and qunari men can't be merchants or craftsmen. That's not equality.

[dragonflight288]

Sten's and Leliana's banter on why she is there and how women aren't supposed to want to be men. Sten is absolutely baffled by the idea that women can fight. He doesn't even believe the Warden is a women because she can fight so well.

[Chiramu]

Women and men can be as stupid as each other or they could be as smart as each other. Gender has nothing to do with intelligence...

The Qunari are also sexist and believe that women are either shopkeepers or priests, never in charge. Talk to Sten in Origins again to hear what he says about women (play a female character).

[Urzon]

Chiramu wrote...

The Qunari are also sexist and believe that women are either shopkeepers or priests, never in charge. Talk to Sten in Origins again to hear what he says about women (play a female character).

Never in charge? I'm guessing you haven't read much about the Qunari. One third of the entire government is always lead by a female, the Arigene. She controls all the farming of land, the creation of products for merchants, all building supplies, weapons and armor, and the distribution of it all to the Qun. By in large, THE most important job when running an empire/civilization.

Not to mention, the Ariqun can also be female, and one of the branches in their priesthood, the Tamassrans, are said to have the biggest influence in the culture.

The Tamassrans wield a great deal of influence in Qunari society. As it is primarily a female gender role (as all administrative tasks are), this might lead an outsider to believe that their society is female-dominated. Qunari do not, however, look upon government in quite the same way. The brain could be said to rule the body, but so too does the heart, the lungs, the stomach. All are part of the greater whole.

And it could be said, they are equally sexist against men as well. They only see men as either a warrior or a priest, because they aren't suited for administrative work.

Modifié par Urzon, 17 juillet 2012 - 06:40 .

[WotanAnubis]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Qunari women can't be soldiers, and qunari men can't be merchants or craftsmen. That's not equality.

What are you talking about? Of course that's equality. You see, men and women complement one another. They both have a Qun-given role to fulfill, but one role is not any lesser than any other role. The man's role to fight is not any more or less important than the woman's role to keep him fed.

They are perfectly equal according to the Qun and therefore they are equal.

Oh, sure, some who are ignorant of the Qun might argue that perhaps some women would really know how to handle a blade and some men might make for some really sharp traders. Or that a culture that values conquest would hold the soldier in higher regard than the farmer. But the Qun says this is not the case and therefore this is not the case.

Modifié par WotanAnubis, 17 juillet 2012 - 07:22 .

[mad825]

Oh god no this again. The IQ test does not determine intelligence other than academic ability. Ultimately, males tend to perform better because of their willingness to compete although it has shown that most men perform the worse in school (based on biological factors). Nature is sexist.

Equality means co-existence not segregation.

[Patchwork]

WotanAnubis wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Qunari women can't be soldiers, and qunari men can't be merchants or craftsmen. That's not equality.

What are you talking about? Of course that's equality. You see, men and women complement one another. They both have a Qun-given role to fulfill, but one role is not any lesser than any other role. The man's role to fight is not any more or less important than the woman's role to keep him fed.

They are perfectly equal according to the Qun and therefore they are equal.

Oh, sure, some who are ignorant of the Qun might argue that perhaps some women would really know how to handle a blade and some men might make for some really sharp traders. Or that a culture that values conquest would hold the soldier in higher regard than the farmer. But the Qun says this is not the case and therefore this is not the case.

Equality would be if the priests taught children in exactly the same way in exactly the same subjects and then made the decision about a child's role without any gender bias.
That they even have such a bias is at odds with their 'right tool for the right job' mentality.

[Chipaway111]

To us it seems sexist, but to the Qunari it is not. The women are just as equal as men, but they are considered suited for different tasks. No one looks down on each other because of their assigned role... I really don't know how to phrase it correctly, but it just seems ignorant to dismiss the Qun as sexist without making an attempt to understand it.

[mad825]

Chipaway111 wrote...

To us it seems sexist, but to the Qunari it is not. The women are just as equal as men, but they are considered suited for different tasks. No one looks down on each other because of their assigned role... I really don't know how to phrase it correctly, but it just seems ignorant to dismiss the Qun as sexist without making an attempt to understand it.

What is there to understand? Their idea of men and women in sociality is based on our primitive view I.e the males were hunters and the females were the nurtures.

By the textbook definition it is sexist. Good or bad; that's to be debated. From the Qunari's perspective sexism isn't bad, a social taboo. Differences in culture does not express ignorance but rather a different opinion on a idea. For example, people can eat other people in Cambodia however it's still cannibalism nevertheless.

Modifié par mad825, 17 juillet 2012 - 12:24 .

[Chipaway111]

mad825 wrote...

Chipaway111 wrote...

To us it seems sexist, but to the Qunari it is not. The women are just as equal as men, but they are considered suited for different tasks. No one looks down on each other because of their assigned role... I really don't know how to phrase it correctly, but it just seems ignorant to dismiss the Qun as sexist without making an attempt to understand it.

What is there to understand? Their idea of men and women in sociality is based on our primitive view I.e the males were hunters and the females were the nurtures.

By the textbook definition it is sexist. Good or bad; that's to be debated. From the Qunari's perspective sexism isn't bad, a social taboo. Differences in culture does not express ignorance but rather a different opinion on a idea. For example, people can eat other people in Cambodia however it's still cannibalism nevertheless.

You've actually explained what I was trying to communicate far better. I used the words 'to us' and indeed other Thedasians (?) it would come off as sexist. Whether or not the Qunari themselves view it as that is something I doubt. In their world, their culture and their society sexism does not exist, neither does racism or anything that can tip balance and mean one group is favoured over another because it violates their religion (I think, I haven't read enough about the Qun to be 110% certain on this, from in-game conversations and lore I'm lead to believe this.)

I don't think I know quite enough to talk further on this issue, and it's a sensitive one to touch upon. You've got to give Bioware credit however, they can spark off some really interesting deabtes 

[Night Dreams]

They're not being sexist to woman, but its definitely not gender equality. Men and women both have the equal opportunity to be just as intelligent as each other. Women are definitely not smarter than men on every occasion.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I don't give a rats ass about sexism, chuivinish, feminism or (forced) political corectnes in my games or stories.
The devs can do whatever the frak they want in their setting.

[nightscrawl]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

your just a bigot

Responses like this don't really encourage thoughtful discussion...


At any rate, I don't really look at the Qunari gender roles the same was that I might those in Ferelden, Kirkwall, or Orlais. Those cities are more analogous to our real world than Qunari society is.

Here is an interesting dialogue between Sten and Zevran...

Zevran: I understand that there are elves in the Qunari lands, Sten.
Sten: There are elves everywhere.
Zevran: Hm. Yes. Well, I've heard that the Qunari actually put the elves in charge? Over the humans? Is that true?
Sten: Some of them.
Zevran: Only some? Which ones are they?
Sten: The ones who belong in charge. That is the way of the Qun.
Zevran: How does this Qun determine who belongs in charge?
Sten: The tamassrans evaluate everyone and place them where their talents merit.
Zevran: But elves, in general, merit higher places than humans in Qunari society?
Sten: Some of them.
Zevran: Back where we began. It's like talking to a water wheel.

And here is his conversation with Leliana (a female Warden can also have similar dialogue with him)...

Sten: Why are you here?
Leliana: What do you mean?
Sten: Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting.
Leliana: I have no idea how to answer this...
Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
Leliana: Do you mean your people have no female mages or warriors?
Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
Leliana: What are you talking about? They don't wish to be men.
Sten: They shouldn't. That can only lead to frustration.
Leliana: Sten...no, never mind. Let's drop this.

In a way, it's similar to their gender issues. People are assigned jobs based on their inherent abilities. Some people are just natural born leaders. This is a fact of life that is real. They are able to inspire others and move them to action based on their own charisma and ability to make decisions. That same person would be wasted in a grunt job. In the same way, a person who should be a farmer will never be raised to the level of their incompetency.

Notice that Sten never says that women are "inferior" so they cannot be fighters. Just as Sten himself would never be a priest, so too would a women never be a soldier. A sten is an infantry platoon commander. He was evaluated and it was determined that that was the best role for him. The tamassran apparently did not feel that he would be suited for command of a larger group, or even the role of arishok. So he is a sten.

The only flaw I find in this situation is in how these decisions are made regarding people's innate abilities. A simple person may indeed rise to the occasion in a crisis, doing things they never imagined themselves doing years before, or even the previous week. I recently watched a news report about a Syrian man who used to repair air-conditioning units. Now he is a leader of rebel forces.

While I think that the Qunari way might not allow some people to even discover their true potential, I think it is an interesting method of maintaining a well-tuned and ordered society.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 19 juillet 2012 - 01:39 .

[Xilizhra]

Given that there are clearly many women in the DAverse who are naturally talented in combat, either the kossith work completely differently in terms of innate talents or the qunari system is just outright wrong and probably one of the things hampering their expansion.

[nightscrawl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Given that there are clearly many women in the DAverse who are naturally talented in combat, either the kossith work completely differently in terms of innate talents or the qunari system is just outright wrong and probably one of the things hampering their expansion.

That second part is interestng, and could certainly be a factor. However, Fenris's comments about the Qunari seem to suggest that they have what they want currently ("The Qunari only ever wanted Seheron, which they have..."), and we'll know when they're going to make a serious attempt to re-educate the rest of Thedas. If, like the DA2 arishok they suddenly feel that they can't allow the rest of the world to exist apart from the Qun, the fact that those outside the Qun are abhorrent to them, well maybe they will try to conquer the rest.

For now though, they may only want Par Vollen (from the map we have no idea how large this is), Seheron, and whatever small islands they have in addition to those. We'll just have to see.

[Xilizhra]

That's all they want for now, but they tried to conquer the whole of Thedas once and failed. Mostly it's because their mages were inferior, but I suspect that their societal rigidity worked against them as well.

[Zkyire]

Xilizhra wrote...

Given that there are clearly many women in the DAverse who are naturally talented in combat, either the kossith work completely differently in terms of innate talents or the qunari system is just outright wrong and probably one of the things hampering their expansion.

Judging by Sten's reaction to Leliana it seems to be a mixture of them assinging people to their best suited roles based on talent, and also assinging people on what they assume to be their best suited roles.

It's true that more men would be soldiers than women, but it's pretty much confirmed by Sten when he simply cannot comprehend that any woman could ever be a warrior, lest she be actively trying to act like a man.

For if it was *pure* talent, then there would be at least *some* female Qunari soldiers, wouldn't there? So obviously there is some assumption on what men and women should do within the Qun.

Modifié par Zkyire, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:20 .

[PizzaThe Hutt]

I think that if a woman would be a better fighter than scholar, she would probably be placed in the Ben-Hassrath instead of the army since Qunari believe that only men serve in the army.