329 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonPogo]

 So when DA2 hit the fans flooded the forums and said the combat was horrible and boring and to easy.  Then Mike Laidlaw said we all just didn't get how great it all was and we should turn up the difficulty.  Then ME3 comes out and the fans come out in force to say how hirrible the ending was.  So Casy Hudson comes out and tells us we just don't get how great it all is but they will provide further explination for those who need it.

Bioware if people are finding what you are doing lacking maybe its not our fault but yours.  Just saying.  And everything we we are hearing about DA3 makes it sound like DA2.5.  You just don't get it...

[NKKKK]

Hopefully they'll get it, because their reputation is going down the ****ter right now.

[Kidd]

We barely know anything at all. A voiced protagonist does not DA2 make.

[Fallstar]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

We barely know anything at all. A voiced protagonist does not DA2 make.

This. Although we know a little more than that. Things we know so far as far as I'm aware:

- Voiced Protagonist and paraphrases are in.
- Full text pop ups as well as paraphrases isn't happening.
- We can change our companions' gear, but each armour set will 'adapt' to that companion.
- The protagonist isn't the Warden or Hawke
- It will probably be set in Orlais.

Still, some more details would be nice.

Also, pre-release, DAO had this really great and detailed FAQ 
http://dragonage.bio...m/dao/game/faq/ 

Reading that is what made me buy the game. Hopefully something similar can be made for DA3.

[andar91]

DuskWarden wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

We barely know anything at all. A voiced protagonist does not DA2 make.

This. Although we know a little more than that. Things we know so far as far as I'm aware:

- Voiced Protagonist and paraphrases are in.
- Full text pop ups as well as paraphrases isn't happening.
- We can change our companions' gear, but each armour set will 'adapt' to that companion.
- The protagonist isn't the Warden or Hawke
- It will probably be set in Orlais.

Still, some more details would be nice.

Also, pre-release, DAO had this really great and detailed FAQ 
http://dragonage.bio...m/dao/game/faq/ 

Reading that is what made me buy the game. Hopefully something similar can be made for DA3.

This is all true, but I will add onto the paraphrase point that they've said they are looking into alternate ways of implementing the wheel and how it works, though voice is definitely in. So we don't know exactly how the paraphrases will work-I suspect they'll be very similar, but there could be some differences.

Personally, I haven't seen anything that's worried me so far (granted we've seen precious little). I enjoyed DA2 even though I think it was greatly flawed and was ultimately less enjoyable than Origins. Anyway, I agree with KiddDaBeauty; just because the next PC is voiced and all of the other stuff does not mean that this next game will emulate the shortcomings of DA2. I mean, Bioware is certainly aware of the complaints. What they do with the next game is up in the air at this point, but Mike Laidlaw's posts on the forum have made me feel fairly confident that they're heading in a direction I can be happy in.

[zyntifox]

DuskWarden wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

We barely know anything at all. A voiced protagonist does not DA2 make.

This. Although we know a little more than that. Things we know so far as far as I'm aware:

- Voiced Protagonist and paraphrases are in.
- Full text pop ups as well as paraphrases isn't happening.
- We can change our companions' gear, but each armour set will 'adapt' to that companion.
- The protagonist isn't the Warden or Hawke
- It will probably be set in Orlais.

Still, some more details would be nice.

Also, pre-release, DAO had this really great and detailed FAQ 
http://dragonage.bio...m/dao/game/faq/ 

Reading that is what made me buy the game. Hopefully something similar can be made for DA3.

And that is why i probably won't be buying DA3. While i do prefer a silent protagonist a voice protagonist is a pain that i can bear. But the paraphrases is a dealbreaker for me. If im going to play role playing game i have to know what the character im role playing is going to say prior to saying it. But it is not the end of the world because of the ridiculous amount of content in Origins i will be settled for years.

[Cutlasskiwi]

+1 Filament and well said.

And I think BioWare gets it just fine.

[macrocarl]

Actually Mike Laidlaw and Casey Hudson didn't say we don't get it. That's not what was said. That's what you took away from what they said. Also what Filament said about game design being a democracy. If you don't like the stories, fine. But don't expect them to change stuff because you don't like it. If you don't like the direction BW is going then don't buy their games.

[Uccio]

Filament wrote...

And I'm pretty sure they're aware of the criticisms of their recent games. They'll probably fix the larger, least disputable "faults," but don't expect game design by democracy.

Business is business and part of if is to listen to your customers. A company which forgets it will deffenetly go down. This said I will not claim that we here in the forum are all that is as customers. Just making a general comment here.

[Realmzmaster]

Business is a business and part of it is to know when not to listen to your customers or to allow one segment of that base to dictate the product. This is why product design is not a democracy. The product may be a team effort but the final decisions have to be made by someone.

Here on the forums you have roughly a 50/50 split on voice versus non-voice so who does Bioware listen to? Bioware makes a judgement call. The same with the paraphrases or anything else.

Bioware listens to the customer base. The problem is that the customer base thinks that because the suggestion is made that Bioware will or must incorporate that into the next product. That may be the case and it may not.

The art of listening also involves knowing when to listen and when not to listen. Sometimes there are good suggestions. Sometimes there is just noise. Sometimes different suggestions contradict each other. Decisions are made and then accountability and responsibility are assigned.

[jillabender]

Realmzmaster wrote…

Business is a business and part of it is to know when not to listen to your customers or to allow one segment of that base to dictate the product. This is why product design is not a democracy. The product may be a team effort but the final decisions have to be made by someone.

Here on the forums you have roughly a 50/50 split on voice versus non-voice so who does Bioware listen to? Bioware makes a judgement call. The same with the paraphrases or anything else.

Bioware listens to the customer base. The problem is that the customer base thinks that because the suggestion is made that Bioware will or must incorporate that into the next product. That may be the case and it may not.

The art of listening also involves knowing when to listen and when not to listen. Sometimes there are good suggestions. Sometimes there is just noise. Sometimes different suggestions contradict each other. Decisions are made and then accountability and responsibility are assigned.

Very well said – I completely agree.

[Jerrybnsn]

Whether they "get it" will depend on if they can get the fan base that they lost back with DA3. From what I've heard so far, they won't. Multiplayer? Kinect and move capabilities? Iconic armor? It just might be worse than DA2 was.

[bEVEsthda]

jillabender wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote…

Business is a business and part of it is to know when not to listen to your customers or to allow one segment of that base to dictate the product. This is why product design is not a democracy. The product may be a team effort but the final decisions have to be made by someone.

Here on the forums you have roughly a 50/50 split on voice versus non-voice so who does Bioware listen to? Bioware makes a judgement call. The same with the paraphrases or anything else.

Bioware listens to the customer base. The problem is that the customer base thinks that because the suggestion is made that Bioware will or must incorporate that into the next product. That may be the case and it may not.

The art of listening also involves knowing when to listen and when not to listen. Sometimes there are good suggestions. Sometimes there is just noise. Sometimes different suggestions contradict each other. Decisions are made and then accountability and responsibility are assigned.

Very well said – I completely agree.

I also completely agree.
But I also, at the same time, think Bioware is screwing up. I also think they're listening to the wrong things, and not listening to the right things. It works both ways.

However, an important point is probably that you can't really demand from a game designer, a development team, that they should do something they don't understand or believe in. So, yes, Bioware has to make their own call in the end. Let's hope they get it right enough.

[King Cousland]

Particulalry wasn't impressed by Gaider's comments regardign the comics: "Taking Alistair, Varric, and Isabela, some of my favorites from both games, and slapping them together was pretty fun!"

Slapping them together? Nice to know that such care goes into creating consequential material "vital to the lore" of the universe....

But generally, I agree. Despite thier pledge to listen, many ideas suggested by the fans just get shot down. Also, the rhetoric about listening to fan feedback and allowing us to experience rich stories with consequences sort of rings hollow when they're pumping out canon material every other month (Silent Grove, Dawn of the Seeker, Those Who Speak) and renting the franchise out to whoever approaches them (Funimation, Dark Horse) and when they keep talking about what they want to show us and where they want to take us. 

Modifié par harkness72, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:08 .

[jillabender]

bEVEsthda wrote…

I also completely agree.
But I also, at the same time, think Bioware is screwing up. I also think they're listening to the wrong things, and not listening to the right things. It works both ways.

However, an important point is probably that you can't really demand from a game designer, a development team, that they should do something they don't understand or believe in. So, yes, Bioware has to make their own call in the end. Let's hope they get it right enough.

I get where you're coming from – I had fun playing DA2, but I also felt that it didn't live up to it's potential. And I can't help but find that frustrating, because I know that Bioware is capable of so much more. But, as you say, the best thing we can do is try to be both direct and civil in our feedback, and hope that the developers will use their best judgment.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:31 .

[King Cousland]

jillabender wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote…

I also completely agree.
But I also, at the same time, think Bioware is screwing up. I also think they're listening to the wrong things, and not listening to the right things. It works both ways.

However, an important point is probably that you can't really demand from a game designer, a development team, that they should do something they don't understand or believe in. So, yes, Bioware has to make their own call in the end. Let's hope they get it right enough.

I get where you're coming from – I had fun playing DA2, but I also felt that it didn't live up to it's potential. And I can't help but find that frustrating, because I know that Bioware is capable of so much more. But, as you say, the best thing we can do is try to be both direct and civil in our feedback, and hope that the developers will use their best judgment.

I think that BioWare has changed irreversibly as a company. Whether that's because the ideals and train of thinking of the people at BioWare have shifted, or to try and fit in with the wants of a larger organism that seeks to expand BioWare's audience outside of the traditional and faithful role-palyers. I'm trying to stay optimistic for DA IIII, but in pure terms of narrtaive and RP elements, I think that games like Origins are gone from BioWare's arsenal forever. 

[jillabender]

harkness72 wrote…

Despite thier pledge to listen, many ideas suggested by the fans just get shot down. Also, the rhetoric about listening to fan feedback and allowing us to experience rich stories with consequences sort of rings hollow when they're pumping out canon material every other month (Silent Grove, Dawn of the Seeker, Those Who Speak) and renting the franchise out to whoever approaches them (Funimation, Dark Horse) and when they keep talking about what they want to show us and where they want to take us.

I haven't read any of the Dragon Age novels or comics yet, but I remember David Gaider stating on another thread that the events in those stories won't necessarily affect events in future games, and that they definitely won't override choices that we've made as players in previous games.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:36 .

[andar91]

jillabender wrote...

harkness72 wrote…

Despite thier pledge to listen, many ideas suggested by the fans just get shot down. Also, the rhetoric about listening to fan feedback and allowing us to experience rich stories with consequences sort of rings hollow when they're pumping out canon material every other month (Silent Grove, Dawn of the Seeker, Those Who Speak) and renting the franchise out to whoever approaches them (Funimation, Dark Horse) and when they keep talking about what they want to show us and where they want to take us.

I haven't read any of the Dragon Age novels or comics yet, but I remember David Gaider stating on another thread that the events in those stories won't necessarily affect events in future games, and that they definitely won't override choices that we've made as players in previous games.

This sooooo much. Bioware's representation of an event that's linked to the game doesn't necessarily make it canon. Plus, they would be very, very limited if they tried to stay away from that sort of material. For instance, Asunder had Wynne in it, but some players presumably killed Wynne. But if David Gaider couldn't have used her, it probably wouldn't have had the same impact.

Then again, I'm actually okay with some decisions in the main games being changed to fit a "canon" or whatever. I know a lot of people get fired up over it, but it's okay by me as long as it is done for a very good reason. I tend to view the games as self-contained entities (I know this is unusual). But I digress.

[jillabender]

andar91 wrote…

jillabender wrote…

I haven't read any of the Dragon Age novels or comics yet, but I remember David Gaider stating on another thread that the events in those stories won't necessarily affect events in future games, and that they definitely won't override choices that we've made as players in previous games.

This sooooo much. Bioware's representation of an event that's linked to the game doesn't necessarily make it canon. Plus, they would be very, very limited if they tried to stay away from that sort of material. For instance, Asunder had Wynne in it, but some players presumably killed Wynne. But if David Gaider couldn't have used her, it probably wouldn't have had the same impact.

Then again, I'm actually okay with some decisions in the main games being changed to fit a "canon" or whatever. I know a lot of people get fired up over it, but it's okay by me as long as it is done for a very good reason. I tend to view the games as self-contained entities (I know this is unusual). But I digress.

Very well said. I probably should have phrased what I said differently – with any sequel, there's never an absolute guarantee that some things won't be ret-conned in future games. But the fact that a story set in the Dragon Age setting uses a certain series of events doesn't necessarily mean that those same events will be treated as "canon" in future games.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:57 .

[RobertRBest]

I think of it like this. There's the "side project" canon, IE books, comics, etc. And then there's player canon. And each player canon is slightly different. Heck, each individual player can have multiple canons going at once depending on their different game saves.

[King Cousland]

It's not the canon I have a problem with. If anything I've enjoyed most of what's been released so far (with the exception of the IMHO God-awful DotS). It's the fact that the only reason these stories (comics and film) have been put together is because BioWare was approached by a third-party and asked if they'd like them to do something DA-related. This means that they had no prior plans for the stories, and even if they did, the lore could easily have been added to the games. Jumping at every opportunity they're offered to produce a new addition just cheapens the whole thing for me.

Also, Gaider said that the Alistair, Varric and Isabela arc will take place over three series. Three?! I quite enjoyed the Silent Grove but the ending was just a cop-out that screamed "Buy the next comic series!" I also find the grouping of Alistair, Varric and Isabela bizarre and it always seemed rather slapdash and fan-ficish to me, which has been confirmed by Gaider's statement above. The carrot and donkey act is something which seems to me to be becoming a hallmark of DA, and is becoming old very, very fast.

Modifié par harkness72, 17 juillet 2012 - 12:11 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Further evidence BioWare needs to abandon the whiners and embrace real gamers. Out with the DAO tropes... in with the future.

[King Cousland]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Further evidence BioWare needs to abandon the whiners and embrace real gamers. Out with the DAO tropes... in with the future.

You know, from reading some of your past posts I'd like to ask why you never really form real arguments but just resort to petty insults and always come back to calling people who disagree with you "whiners"?

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

harkness72 wrote...

You know, from reading some of your past posts I'd like to ask why you never really form real arguments but just resort to petty insults and always come back to calling people who disagree with you "whiners"?

You haven't read many of my posts, then.  I have plenty of people on my friends list I disagree with.  

This thread though, is a whine.  The clear message behind threads like this is "make more DAO" but...  blech.  Those games died out for a reason.  DA2 wasn't a perfect game, but it was a better game than DAO.  DA3 will be even better than DA2.  Some of the trope can creep back in, I'll roll my eyes buy still buy it....  but the more of the old world game mechnics that are carved out of new games, the happier I'll be.