329 réponses à ce sujet

[King Cousland]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

You know, from reading some of your past posts I'd like to ask why you never really form real arguments but just resort to petty insults and always come back to calling people who disagree with you "whiners"?

You haven't read many of my posts, then.  I have plenty of people on my friends list I disagree with.  

This thread though, is a whine.  The clear message behind threads like this is "make more DAO" but...  blech.  Those games died out for a reason.  DA2 wasn't a perfect game, but it was a better game than DAO.  DA3 will be even better than DA2.  Some of the trope can creep back in, I'll roll my eyes buy still buy it....  but the more of the old world game mechnics that are carved out of new games, the happier I'll be. 

In your opinion. Great swathes of the fan base would beg to differ. 

And what is the reason for this supposed extinction of games like DA:O? Considering that it sold better than DAII and was vastly better received both among critics and fans I'd say that they're alive and kicking.  

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

harkness72 wrote...

In your opinion. Great swathes of the fan base would beg to differ. 

It's not math class.  We're all voicing opinions.   

And what is the reason for this supposed extinction of games like DA:O? Considering that it sold better than DAII and was vastly better received both among critics and fans I'd say that they're alive and kicking.  

Who cares about a reason?  Where are the big name games like DAO if it's such a popular kind of game?  DAO was a throwback.  Nothing more.

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:03 .

[King Cousland]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

In your opinion. Great swathes of the fan base would beg to differ. 

It's not math class.  We're all voicing opinions.   

And what is the reason for this supposed extinction of games like DA:O? Considering that it sold better than DAII and was vastly better received both among critics and fans I'd say that they're alive and kicking.  

Who cares about a reason?  Where are the big name games like DAO if it's such a popular kind of game?  DAO was a throwback.  Nothing more.

And yet games like the |Elder Scrolls and the Witcher series which rely heavily on the "old world" and "throwback" elements you think should be purged are immense commercial and critical success stories. DAII on the other hand...

[Ash Wind]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Whether they "get it" will depend on if they can get the fan base that they lost back with DA3. From what I've heard so far, they won't. Multiplayer? Kinect and move capabilities? Iconic armor? It just might be worse than DA2 was.

Oh, they get it. They’ve promised to improve the paraphrase system. Considering their last game had some of the worst paraphrases in the storied history of paraphrasing, no doubt it will go from absolutely atrocious to almost mediocre. Things are looking better already.
 
But paraphrases are important. Who in their right mind would want to know what their character is going to say… that’s just stupid. /sarcasm off

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

harkness72 wrote...

And yet games like the |Elder Scrolls and the Witcher series which rely heavily on the "old world" and "throwback" elements you think should be purged are immense commercial and critical success stories. DAII on the other hand...

Neither game is =anything= like DAO, so I'll ask again:  If DAO is such a great formula for games, where are all the similar games?  TES has been going the DA2 route, or more accurately, DA2 followed the TES path and became much more approchable and fun than DAO or Daggerfall every were.  Twitcher is a clickfest action game.  :-)

[King Cousland]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

And yet games like the |Elder Scrolls and the Witcher series which rely heavily on the "old world" and "throwback" elements you think should be purged are immense commercial and critical success stories. DAII on the other hand...

Neither game is =anything= like DAO, so I'll ask again:  If DAO is such a great formula for games, where are all the similar games?  TES has been going the DA2 route, or more accurately, DA2 followed the TES path and became much more approchable and fun than DAO or Daggerfall every were.  Twitcher is a clickfest action game.  :-)

And I'll say again, they both contain traditional RPG elements that you want to see thrown out. And customers clealry didn't get the memo about DAII being more approachable considering its lower sales figures compared to Origins. 

Modifié par harkness72, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:24 .

[andar91]

Ash Wind wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Whether they "get it" will depend on if they can get the fan base that they lost back with DA3. From what I've heard so far, they won't. Multiplayer? Kinect and move capabilities? Iconic armor? It just might be worse than DA2 was.

Oh, they get it. They’ve promised to improve the paraphrase system. Considering their last game had some of the worst paraphrases in the storied history of paraphrasing, no doubt it will go from absolutely atrocious to almost mediocre. Things are looking better already.
 
But paraphrases are important. Who in their right mind would want to know what their character is going to say… that’s just stupid. /sarcasm off

All sarcasm aside, I can understand the frustration over this even though I rarely found the paraphrases a problem (there were several points that frustrated me, though). I have two ideas, but I have no idea if they would work. Neither of them involve listing the exact line that the PC would say.

1.) Remove the text as much as possible and simply leave the symbols. You might need more symbols, but it would lessen the problem of being confused over line said vs. paraphrase. Of course, this would work best for people who like the roleplaying style of steering a character in a certain direction over directly controlling their every motivation in your head.

2.) Replace the symbols or paraphrases (or both) with a verb and (possibly) an adverb or modifier. A little text heavy, but I think I'd like it. Possible choices in a conversation:
Insult
Insult (joke)
Agree
Refuse
Refuse (Angrily)
Refuse (Angrily/Punch)
Warn (Threatening)
Warn (Diplomatic)

I think it's an interesting idea, but it's a tricky one. It could be very cumbersome and difficult to fit to certain situations or conversations. Either way, you're still going to have the voice, which some people find detrimental to their roleplaying experience. So no matter what they do, some people won't be happy (at least with that part of the game).

Modifié par andar91, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:35 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

harkness72 wrote...

And I'll say again, they both contain traditional RPG elements that you want to see thrown out. And customers clealry didn't get the memo about DAII being more approachable considering its lower sales figures compared to Origins. 

Since you can't find any big name games in the style of DAO, it seems we can agree another game like DAO would be a failure.  Now blending RPG elements into an action game like in Twitcher!  I'm all for that.  Blending RPG elements into a sandbox game like Skyrim!  I'm all for that. 

In fact...  Let's use your examples and chop out most of the old world tropes!  We'll reduce a game to the good parts of an RPG...  Like BioWare did to their normal formula with an admitedly bumpy implementation of DA2.  Then, with DA3, we can let just a few more old tropes sneak back in to keep the trope-fans happy...  But the game will move on and change.  That's all that matters. 

The old gamesare done.  Bring on the new games! 

[Plaintiff]

harkness72 wrote...

Particulalry wasn't impressed by Gaider's comments regardign the comics: "Taking Alistair, Varric, and Isabela, some of my favorites from both games, and slapping them together was pretty fun!"

Slapping them together? Nice to know that such care goes into creating consequential material "vital to the lore" of the universe....

You are seriously reaching here. David Gaider used a perfectly innocent and common turn of phrase. It does not in any way imply that he was lazy or careless  with his writing.

But generally, I agree. Despite thier pledge to listen, many ideas suggested by the fans just get shot down.

Any 'ideas' offered by fans ought to be taken with a massive side of salt in the first place. What experience do most of the forumgoers have in developing videogames? I'm guessing none. 

Also, the rhetoric about listening to fan feedback and allowing us to experience rich stories with consequences sort of rings hollow when they're pumping out canon material every other month (Silent Grove, Dawn of the Seeker, Those Who Speak) and renting the franchise out to whoever approaches them (Funimation, Dark Horse) and when they keep talking about what they want to show us and where they want to take us. 

As has been said over and over and over again, none of the supplementary material affects the canon of the games. It does not invalidate your choices.

And again, way to read far too much into innocent statements. Unless you're going to lambast every other developer (not to mention filmmakers and authors) for saying the exact same things about their own intellectual properties, you're being a massive hypocrite.

[Realmzmaster]

Why is Bioware/EA branching out into other media and allowing third parties create products with the DA IP? The reason is that Bioware/EA is a business. The main goal of a business is to make profit.

Books and comic books must have a set canon story otherwise the writer cannot tell the story. Bioware/EA is not doing anything that has not already been done. TSR and now WoTC/Hasbro did it for years and is still doing it. Where was the outcry when TSR was licensing it settings for comic books, books and movies? Go to any bookstore and there is a slew of D & D related books from Elminister in Hell to the Lone Drow etc. There have been two D & D related movies and DC and Devil Due's Publishing produced several titles on the different settings. Not counting the numerous video games based on D & D.

None of the other media impacted the video games. The same is true with the DA material. Everything is self contained. Why wouldn't David Gaider use the characters he created in his books? Why wouldn't those characters be used in anime or comic books.

What happens in the other media does not affect what has happened in your games. Eventually Bioware is going to have to make some aspects canon out of necessity to continue telling the story.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 17 juillet 2012 - 06:17 .

[Uccio]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Business is a business and part of it is to know when not to listen to your customers or to allow one segment of that base to dictate the product. This is why product design is not a democracy. The product may be a team effort but the final decisions have to be made by someone.

Here on the forums you have roughly a 50/50 split on voice versus non-voice so who does Bioware listen to? Bioware makes a judgement call. The same with the paraphrases or anything else.

Bioware listens to the customer base. The problem is that the customer base thinks that because the suggestion is made that Bioware will or must incorporate that into the next product. That may be the case and it may not.

The art of listening also involves knowing when to listen and when not to listen. Sometimes there are good suggestions. Sometimes there is just noise. Sometimes different suggestions contradict each other. Decisions are made and then accountability and responsibility are assigned.

All true. However, one part of business is also to monitor the quantity of products sold as you know. Even if the profit does not diminish (or so has been claimed about DA2 vs DAO) but the number of sold products does, then there is a sift in the customer base which shows that something is "wrong" with the product if the original number of customers is not reached. Since as much as I have understood DA2 had "only" allmost half the sales as DAO. If so then that is a important aspect which Bio cannot ignore.

Now, members of this forum represent but a fraction of the fan base (even less probably). But I believe people here do reflect the overall feelings, good or bad, of the "silent majority" out there. I don´t believe that the percentages of who likes what, is any different out there. So, in that light I would say that complaints regarding the game/play do have some basis in them and reflect the result why sales(numbers) are smaller, which Bio should take into account and not just shrugh them off. But obviously this is all just a guesswork.

Modifié par Ukki, 17 juillet 2012 - 03:58 .

[Fallstar]

Ash Wind wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Whether they "get it" will depend on if they can get the fan base that they lost back with DA3. From what I've heard so far, they won't. Multiplayer? Kinect and move capabilities? Iconic armor? It just might be worse than DA2 was.

Oh, they get it. They’ve promised to improve the paraphrase system. Considering their last game had some of the worst paraphrases in the storied history of paraphrasing, no doubt it will go from absolutely atrocious to almost mediocre. Things are looking better already.
 
But paraphrases are important. Who in their right mind would want to know what their character is going to say… that’s just stupid. /sarcasm off

Auto dialogue is more important than knowing what you're going to say, apparently. That ship has sailed, all we can do now is wait to see how exactly they improve the system. Bioware have said that they aren't going to be telling us things until they have something to show, how they improve the paraphrases is something I really hope they show off pre-release.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

DuskWarden wrote...

Auto dialogue is more important than knowing what you're going to say, apparently. That ship has sailed, all we can do now is wait to see how exactly they improve the system. Bioware have said that they aren't going to be telling us things until they have something to show, how they improve the paraphrases is something I really hope they show off pre-release.

I'd rather choose a direction of the conversation than choose every word.  I'm in favor of pulling the words out all together and just having emotion icons.  The more like a movie I direct the cutscenese become, the better the game is.

[Fallstar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

I'd rather choose a direction of the conversation than choose every word.  I'm in favor of pulling the words out all together and just having emotion icons.  The more like a movie I direct the cutscenese become, the better the game is.

Yes well, you get what you want out of the trade off then don't you. 

If I'm playing a video game that feels like a film, why wouldn't I just go and watch a film, if I wanted a cinematic experience the experience I'd get in a cinema is orders of magnitude better than that in a video game.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

They do "get it". They just don't care.

[Leoroc]

My personal experience here on the forums is that they are paying close attention and are well aware of the backlash DA2 and ME3 received. They don't want that backlash again and are certainly working on making what they believe is a good game with a lot more input on the development from fans than DA2 had.

Hopefully DA3 will be an awesome game, but it's way off to jump on them and say they aren't listening to the criticisms of DA2 and suggestions for DA3. I've had a lot of my suggestions personally read and replied to by Mike Laidlaw and David Gaider. Whether or not they implement any of them I don't know but I do know they read them and that gives me hope.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Leoroc wrote...

My personal experience here on the forums is that they are paying close attention and are well aware of the backlash DA2 and ME3 received. They don't want that backlash again and are certainly working on making what they believe is a good game with a lot more input on the development from fans than DA2 had.

Hopefully DA3 will be an awesome game, but it's way off to jump on them and say they aren't listening to the criticisms of DA2 and suggestions for DA3. I've had a lot of my suggestions personally read and replied to by Mike Laidlaw and David Gaider. Whether or not they implement any of them I don't know but I do know they read them and that gives me hope.

That's kinda the problem though, isn't it? I mean... why do they need all this input from us when they're supposed to be this top tier game developer?

Can they not get it right by themselves? They need our help? If so, I'd like a paycheck for my part.

[GodWood]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
DAO was a throwback.  Nothing more.

A throwback that was loved by the fans, got critical acclaim and was their most commercially successful game to date.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

DuskWarden wrote...

If I'm playing a video game that feels like a film, why wouldn't I just go and watch a film, if I wanted a cinematic experience the experience I'd get in a cinema is orders of magnitude better than that in a video game.

And mixing game with cinema makes both much mo' bettah.  DA2 was the first step.  Better things to come!

[Realmzmaster]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Leoroc wrote...

My personal experience here on the forums is that they are paying close attention and are well aware of the backlash DA2 and ME3 received. They don't want that backlash again and are certainly working on making what they believe is a good game with a lot more input on the development from fans than DA2 had.

Hopefully DA3 will be an awesome game, but it's way off to jump on them and say they aren't listening to the criticisms of DA2 and suggestions for DA3. I've had a lot of my suggestions personally read and replied to by Mike Laidlaw and David Gaider. Whether or not they implement any of them I don't know but I do know they read them and that gives me hope.

That's kinda the problem though, isn't it? I mean... why do they need all this input from us when they're supposed to be this top tier game developer?

Can they not get it right by themselves? They need our help? If so, I'd like a paycheck for my part.

The same reason why any manufacturer listens to their customer base. They want to gauge the reaction to the product whether it be good or ill. If Bioware did not listen gamers here would be complaining that Bioware did not listen. The best of the best know when to listen to a good suggestion and criticism that is what makes them good.

Another hallmark of trying to achieve the best is knowing when to push the envelope. Sometimes you get burned doing that. Sometimes you are very successful. If Bioware had not push the envelope BG, NWN and DAO may never have happened.

Innovation and change occur because someone is willing to push the envelope and do something different. Experiemtation is necessary for anything new to occur. If you are afraid to fail then you will never know if you can succeed. Or as Flemeth said  It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly.

Some on the forum state that DA2 was a misstep and others do not think so.  If DA2 is the fall we will see if Bioware learns to fly again with DA3.

[Realmzmaster]

Ukki wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Business is a business and part of it is to know when not to listen to your customers or to allow one segment of that base to dictate the product. This is why product design is not a democracy. The product may be a team effort but the final decisions have to be made by someone.

Here on the forums you have roughly a 50/50 split on voice versus non-voice so who does Bioware listen to? Bioware makes a judgement call. The same with the paraphrases or anything else.

Bioware listens to the customer base. The problem is that the customer base thinks that because the suggestion is made that Bioware will or must incorporate that into the next product. That may be the case and it may not.

The art of listening also involves knowing when to listen and when not to listen. Sometimes there are good suggestions. Sometimes there is just noise. Sometimes different suggestions contradict each other. Decisions are made and then accountability and responsibility are assigned.

All true. However, one part of business is also to monitor the quantity of products sold as you know. Even if the profit does not diminish (or so has been claimed about DA2 vs DAO) but the number of sold products does, then there is a sift in the customer base which shows that something is "wrong" with the product if the original number of customers is not reached. Since as much as I have understood DA2 had "only" allmost half the sales as DAO. If so then that is a important aspect which Bio cannot ignore.

Now, members of this forum represent but a fraction of the fan base (even less probably). But I believe people here do reflect the overall feelings, good or bad, of the "silent majority" out there. I don´t believe that the percentages of who likes what, is any different out there. So, in that light I would say that complaints regarding the game/play do have some basis in them and reflect the result why sales(numbers) are smaller, which Bio should take into account and not just shrugh them off. But obviously this is all just a guesswork.

That is true, but without the numbers everything is guess work. DAO sold well but how many of those gamers actually liked the game? The assumption is that if DA2 had been like DAO it would have sold the same amount or more? But that is not necessarily the case other factors have to be factored into the equation. Some of those gamers who bought DAO may not have liked it so they would not be buying DA2. For example I bought Oblivion because I liked Morrowind. I disliked Oblivion. I did not buy Skyrim. I disliked Witcher 1. I did not buy Witcher 2. 

If Bioware's data is correct 50% of DAO ownwers never finished the game. Why? If that 50% did not finish DAO why would they buy DA2?

The numbers that Bioware can be certain of is profitability assuming that DA2 was as profitable as DAO and needing to sell less units. 

There are alot of factors to consider.

[Maclimes]

Realmzmaster wrote...

If Bioware's data is correct 50% of DAO ownwers never finished the game. Why? If that 50% did not finish DAO why would they buy DA2?

That's actually a strength of DA2, as opposed to ME2.

Dragon Age 2 is a new story, set in the same world. You CAN import a save from DA:O, but it has minimal impact overall. And playing DA:O is by no means a requirement for DA2.

Mass Effect 2, on the other hand, is a literal direct sequal to Mass Effect 1. If you didn't play the first, the second is confusing and gibberish.

In fact, one of the WORST marketing decisions they made in DA2 was literally the title. The "2" implies direct sequel. People think, "Oh, I didn't play the first one. I won't know what's going on, so I won't bother". If they had just called it "Dragon Age: The Kirkwall Rebellions" or something similar, it would have been more clear that it wasn't just a direct continuation of the previous game.

[Cirram55]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

And mixing game with cinema makes both much mo' bettah.  DA2 was the first step.  Better things to come!

I beg to differ. Mixing a game (a role-playing game) with cinema, ultimately gives you nothing of both, thus making things worse. Why should I be interested in watching a highly pixelated movie when actual cinema offers me so much more? Why would I watch a movie when I have a highly customizable game?
DA2 was indeed the first step, but alas things to come are way worse than that, if they follow this direction.

One thing I simply can't fathom is how Bioware say they'll grant more player agency in future games, and right now they have only managed to demonstrate the exact opposite defining your character for you.

[Maclimes]

Cirram55 wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

And mixing game with cinema makes both much mo' bettah.  DA2 was the first step.  Better things to come!

I beg to differ. Mixing a game (a role-playing game) with cinema, ultimately gives you nothing of both, thus making things worse. Why should I be interested in watching a highly pixelated movie when actual cinema offers me so much more? 

I don't necessarily disagree with you... although I should point out that most movies are only 2 hours long. A good game make take you weeks to finish. That might be enough to interest me.