329 réponses à ce sujet

[Cirram55]

Maclimes wrote...

I don't necessarily disagree with you... although I should point out that most movies are only 2 hours long. A good game make take you weeks to finish. That might be enough to interest me.

I think I would rather have 10hs. of divergent gameplay and storyline than a 50hs. movie-like game.
If anything simply because the former translates into 50hs. of replayability, if you get what I mean, while the latter is a game I probably won't touch again, like I did with ME3.

Modifié par Cirram55, 17 juillet 2012 - 09:31 .

[Cirram55]

Edit: double post.

Modifié par Cirram55, 17 juillet 2012 - 09:31 .

[Maclimes]

Cirram55 wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

I don't necessarily disagree with you... although I should point out that most movies are only 2 hours long. A good game make take you weeks to finish. That might be enough to interest me.

I think I would rather have 10hs. of divergent gameplay and storyline than a 50hs. movie-like game.
If anything simply because the former translates into 50hs. of replayability, if you get what I mean, while the latter is a game I probably won't touch again, like I did with ME3.

I get you. I'm not disagreeing.

Although the ability to make decisions in a movie would be cool ("Don't walk through that door, dammit!"). I think the two will start to blend over time.  The distinction between "movie" and "game" will start to blur as graphics improve to the point that it is near indistinguishable from reality, and hardware improves to match it. At that point, why bother just sitting and watching, when I could actively decide the movie's direction and personality? It would probably help people who spent their youth just drooling in front of a TV. At least this way, they would be interacting and using their brains (even if only briefly).

Okay, I went off on a tangent there. My bad.

[Cirram55]

Maclimes wrote...
Okay, I went off on a tangent there. My bad.

Not at all, it's totally legitimate to speculate, hope and dream.
Recent examples, though, have only shown me that lazyness and bad choice in design clearly get in the way, thus having the cinematic game railroad you into a fixed story of a fixed (or partially so) protagonist.
All things considered (monetary budget above all), a true interactive movie sadly remains a fantasy.
A sweet one indeed, but a fantasy nonetheless.

And as a side note, DA:Next is likely going to use a tweaked Lycium engine (and the same cartoony art style), so still no realistic movie simulation .

Modifié par Cirram55, 17 juillet 2012 - 10:01 .

[Maclimes]

Cirram55 wrote...

And as a side note, DA:Next is likely going to use a tweaked Lycium engine (and the same cartoony art style), so still no realistic movie simulation

Not that a movie must be visually realistic in order to be enjoyable. See: Pixar.

Not that I want DA to go THAT cartoony, however...

[Neo DrKefka]

NKKKK wrote...

Hopefully they'll get it, because their reputation is going down the ****ter right now.

Between disgruntled ex employees still here and other comments they have a lot to repair and I think they need to focus on customer support and lose the angry developer banter.

Realmzmaster wrote...

Business is a business and part of it is to know when not to listen to your customers or to allow one segment of that base to dictate the product. This is why product design is not a democracy. The product may be a team effort but the final decisions have to be made by someone. 

Here on the forums you have roughly a 50/50 split on voice versus non-voice so who does Bioware listen to? Bioware makes a judgement call. The same with the paraphrases or anything else.

Bioware listens to the customer base. The problem is that the customer base thinks that because the suggestion is made that Bioware will or must incorporate that into the next product. That may be the case and it may not.

The art of listening also involves knowing when to listen and when not to listen. Sometimes there are good suggestions. Sometimes there is just noise. Sometimes different suggestions contradict each other. Decisions are made and then accountability and responsibility are assigned.

 

It's simple, what Bioware had done and the bad decisions of Dragon Age II, The Old Republic and Mass Effect have brought the national media and focused it on Bioware. Not to mention EA's CEO might get fired because of poor earnings. 

The new Bioware that doesn't answer to the customers which they call "fans" is because they do not sell themselves to customers anymore because EA pays and funds them, not us. In the end EA has to answer for what Bioware is doing and EA's CEO right now might not have a job shortly.

[Pasquale1234]

Maclimes wrote...

I don't necessarily disagree with you... although I should point out that most movies are only 2 hours long. A good game make take you weeks to finish. That might be enough to interest me.

I don't watch much TV, but *love* to buy entire series and consume them over a period of a few weeks.

Really satisfies my occasional desire to get lost in a cinematic world for 50+ hours.  HBO classics (like "Oz " or "Six Feet Under") are among my favs.

When I buy games, I want to play them more than watch them.

[wowpwnslol]

They "get it". Bioware aren't retards. The main issue is EA pulling all the strings.

[Neo DrKefka]

wowpwnslol wrote...

They "get it". Bioware aren't retards. The main issue is EA pulling all the strings.

EA is not pulling all the strings that's the problem. Again, Bioware doesn't have to make games to appeal to us anymore. They have to appease EA since EA is funding Bioware. Bioware has been doing thing's their way it's like if you made an amazingly good product and people liked it so you made it to suit them but someone else bought you out and paid you to make a product and funded and you just had to answer to us but we expect you to make us money.....what do you think is going to happen? You automatically assume your product is going to be good no matter what and you do not have to listen to whiny people or shape your product to suit all these whiny people. Hell they are not even customers anymore since someone else sells the product you make they are just 'fans'

[Killjoy Cutter]

The "interactive cinematic experience" is pretty much worthless as a game.

[batlin]

Bioware knows DA2 is terrible and they know ME3's ending was a pile of crap. They just can't come out and admit it for some reason because apparently appearing like they're in denial will make fans keep more faith in them than admitting their faults.

In short, see my signature.

[Imrahil_]

They don't get it. They aren't going to get it. DA2's poor sales are already documented, but what's interesting is looking at their spin-offs. They are doing terribly, too, but yet they stay the course.

I've pointed out in another thread that Dawn of the Seeker failed to crack the Top 30 in DVD sales the week it was released, selling less than 15,000 copies.

Dragon Age: the Silent Grove #1 was released in late February, 2012.  Can anyone find it in the top 300 selling comics of February or even March? No? Less than 3,000 copies? Other IDW titles are listed: Stephen King Joe Hill Road Rage @ 13,336; True Blood French Quarter @ 8,909; Smoke And Mirrors @ 3,313, so it's not like IDW doesn't publish top-300 titles.

Book sales are difficult to track. But Asunder is currently #38,015 on Amazon's list (page down a couple times). The Calling is #197,150. Just as a comparison, The Hunger Games, Book 1, which came out 3 years ago, is #11, so it's not a matter of time passing.

Why do I do this? Because I hate the direction Bioware is on. I am a former **** (EDIT - hah, that word is Bio - drone). I used to love & buy everything Bioware did. I used to be a fanboi. But they are going down a path I cannot follow. And it appears that many others feel the same, & are not following.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 18 juillet 2012 - 02:46 .

[addiction21]

Imrahil_ wrote...

They don't get it. They aren't going to get it. DA2's poor sales are already documented, but what's interesting is looking at their spin-offs. They are doing terribly, too, but yet they stay the course.

I've pointed out in another thread that Dawn of the Seeker failed to crack the Top 30 in DVD sales the week it was released, selling less than 15,000 copies.

Dragon Age: the Silent Grove #1 was released in late February, 2012.  Can anyone find it in the top 300 selling comics of February or even March? No? Less than 3,000 copies? Other IDW titles are listed: Stephen King Joe Hill Road Rage @ 13,336; True Blood French Quarter @ 8,909; Smoke And Mirrors @ 3,313, so it's not like IDW doesn't publish top-300 titles.

Book sales are difficult to track. But Asunder is currently #38,015 on Amazon's list (page down a couple times). The Calling is #197,150. Just as a comparison, The Hunger Games, Book 1, which came out 3 years ago, is #11, so it's not a matter of time passing.

Why do I do this? Because I hate the direction Bioware is on. I am a former **** (EDIT - hah, that word is Bio - drone). I used to love & buy everything Bioward did. I used to be a fanboi. But they are going down a path I cannot follow. And it appears that many others feel the same, & are not following.

So then BIoWare should force themselves into a more mainstreams audience? Where the number solde dictates quality?
Does McDonalds make the best Hamburgers?
Justin Beiber make the best music?
Marvel and DC having a almost 80 years head start and pretty much control that media, do they make the best comics?

Would it make you feel better if I went out and purchased a second  of The Stolen Throne, Calling and Asunder? I prefer them to the Hunger Games. Is War and Peace a better book? Maybe, at least other people say that but I like the former.

Oh and when did the precious niche CRPG have to be a top seller?

[Imrahil_]

addiction21 wrote...
So then BIoWare should force themselves into a more mainstreams audience? Where the number solde dictates quality?

Please point out where I said that.  To be honest, they tried to do exactly that, & it failed.  On several levels.

Oh and when did the precious niche CRPG have to be a top seller?

That's my whole point.  It doesn't.  They should be the best at their niche, not mediocre-to-poor at other media, which is what they're doing.

[Plaintiff]

Imrahil_ wrote...
I've pointed out in another thread that Dawn of the Seeker failed to crack the Top 30 in DVD sales the week it was released, selling less than 15,000 copies.

But that makes no sense! Straight-to-DVD releases of anime films based on video game franchises are routinely in the top five!

Oh wait, no they aren't! This is par for the course and not at all indicative of failure! Silly me.

Dragon Age: the Silent Grove #1 was released in late February, 2012.  Can anyone find it in the top 300 selling comics of February or even March? No? Less than 3,000 copies? Other IDW titles are listed: Stephen King Joe Hill Road Rage @ 13,336; True Blood French Quarter @ 8,909; Smoke And Mirrors @ 3,313, so it's not like IDW doesn't publish top-300 titles.

Because David Gaider was totally gonna be able to compete with Stephen King, who is one of, if not the most popular author currently living! And True Blood only has an internationally recognized television series and all the novels that came before that to create brand recognition. That's nothing compared to Dragon Age, which has two whole videogames under its belt!

Book sales are difficult to track. But Asunder is currently #38,015 on Amazon's list (page down a couple times). The Calling is #197,150. Just as a comparison, The Hunger Games, Book 1, which came out 3 years ago, is #11, so it's not a matter of time passing.

Hunger Games is only one of the most popular book series worldwide in recent decades, with a film adaptation that shattered box office records, but Asunder should be more popular because it was released more recently?

Why do I do this? Because I hate the direction Bioware is on. I am a former **** (EDIT - hah, that word is Bio - drone). I used to love & buy everything Bioware did. I used to be a fanboi. But they are going down a path I cannot follow. And it appears that many others feel the same, & are not following.

This "direction" presumably being one that can't compete with the most popular and widely recognised intellectual properties that exist across the entire spectrum of media? I'm sorry, was Bioware ever going in any other direction?

Your argument is flat-out, bat**** insane. You either literally live under a rock, and know nothing about the media industry or you are deliberately presenting a skewed view to support a preconceived bias. There is no other explanation for this nonsense.

Video games are a niche industry, video game films even more so, and video game comics/novels even more so than that.  If you were interested in presenting a proper analysis of the success of Dragon Age spinoffs, relative to products in the same market, you would be looking at the Assassin's Creed novels, or the swathes of forgettable novels based on the D&D franchise. Video game spinoff media always performs poorly and it always will. But heaven forbid that a minor entity like Bioware fail to outsell the most popular brands of all time. They'd better never release the Dragon Age soundtrack, unless it can compete with One Direction's latest album.

And that's not even touching on the massive logical dissonance in equating popularity to quality. I guess that means Twilight is the height of modern literature.

[devSin]

Filament wrote...

Your paraphrase of Laidlaw's comments does a disservice to what he actually said, but inasmuch as people complained about a 'lack of difficulty' relative to Origins, I agree with his comment.

It actually doesn't. I remember how dumb that comment was when he made it. I'm actually giggling about the memory, right now.

The problem is that he wasn't answering the question that was asked, at least not the way it was being interpreted. He was asked why the game was dumbed down, and then he proceeded to go on to say that people should turn up the difficulty.

Le stupid, Mike. Le stupid.

Imrahil_ wrote...

Dragon Age: the Silent Grove #1 was released in late February, 2012.

I'm going to pick up the hard-copy later this month or sometime next.

I don't care about sales figures. I wasn't able to get the individual issues because of the ME3 ending, but I probably would have waited for the compilation anyway. Apparently there are enough people buying them that he gets to keep writing them. I don't see how anything else is relevant.

Modifié par devSin, 18 juillet 2012 - 04:32 .

[addiction21]

Imrahil_ wrote...

addiction21 wrote...
So then BIoWare should force themselves into a more mainstreams audience? Where the number solde dictates quality?

Please point out where I said that.  To be honest, they tried to do exactly that, & it failed.  On several levels.

Oh and when did the precious niche CRPG have to be a top seller?

That's my whole point.  It doesn't.  They should be the best at their niche, not mediocre-to-poor at other media, which is what they're doing.

 You're entire post is about how BioWare failed becaue it did not compete with more main stream media. Every exaple you provided is comparing their equilvient to a mainstream item and how they failed because they did not surpass it.

Why should they be the best at their niche? Aside from Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age are their first original IPs and are their first fores outside of video games.  D&D and Starwars had novels, comics and movies out before BioWare did any of that. Before BioWare was allowed to do any of that in those IPs.

And out of that vast collection of material I can only think of The Heir to the Empire Trilogy by Zahn that ever hit it big.  What other D&D or StarWars novels reigned the best sellers lists for their time?

You are holding them to unrealistcs unrealistic that if they even met... just ONCE... it is doubtfull they could ever repeat that.

Modifié par addiction21, 18 juillet 2012 - 05:04 .

[Fallstar]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

If I'm playing a video game that feels like a film, why wouldn't I just go and watch a film, if I wanted a cinematic experience the experience I'd get in a cinema is orders of magnitude better than that in a video game.

And mixing game with cinema makes both much mo' bettah.  DA2 was the first step.  Better things to come!

Depends. If all you're getting is a film where you get to play the combat, and vaguely direct some of the dialogue, that's a pretty ****ty and boring deal in my opinion. For what's supposed to be an RPG anyway. That's what I'd call a cinematic experience with elements of gameplay.

If you had a good game experience, with elements of cinematicism, that's the way to go.

[AkiKishi]

DuskWarden wrote...
Depends. If all you're getting is a film where you get to play the combat, and vaguely direct some of the dialogue, that's a pretty ****ty and boring deal in my opinion. For what's supposed to be an RPG anyway. That's what I'd call a cinematic experience with elements of gameplay.

If you had a good game experience, with elements of cinematicism, that's the way to go.

That's what JRPGs have done for years. One reason why voicing never really changed that much about them. It all comes down to whether you like the story or not. That will determine what you will overlook.

[AkiKishi]

Cirram55 wrote...

I beg to differ. Mixing a game (a role-playing game) with cinema, ultimately gives you nothing of both, thus making things worse. Why should I be interested in watching a highly pixelated movie when actual cinema offers me so much more? Why would I watch a movie when I have a highly customizable game?
DA2 was indeed the first step, but alas things to come are way worse than that, if they follow this direction.

One thing I simply can't fathom is how Bioware say they'll grant more player agency in future games, and right now they have only managed to demonstrate the exact opposite defining your character for you.

Watching a movie or reading a book is passive. Playing a game is not, even if you are watching movie like scenes.
I love long intro's get's me all fired up to play the game.

Because quite frankly they can do it better. They know the story , they know how the character fits into the story. But they won't take that final step to Witcher2/DX which is where the cinematic style comes together.
The exact opposite is IWD/II where the only thing you are required to do is like PnP come up with a background that gets the party to the starting point. The trade off is there is no connection between the characters and the story beyond those you create with your imagination.

[cephasjames]

harkness72 wrote...

Also, the rhetoric about listening to fan feedback and allowing us to experience rich stories with consequences sort of rings hollow when they're pumping out canon material every other month (Silent Grove, Dawn of the Seeker, Those Who Speak) and renting the franchise out to whoever approaches them (Funimation, Dark Horse) and when they keep talking about what they want to show us and where they want to take us. 

Yes, because companies that own popular fantasy settings always keep that material to themselves and naver allow it to go to broader audiences: http://en.wikipedia....elated_products

[Leoroc]

A game can absolutely have a cinematic feel and still be COMPLETELY AWESOME. Even an RPG. KotOR felt far more like playing/interacting in a solid Star Wars movie than any other Star Wars game (or even the prequel trilogy in its entirety). From the the title crawl to the award ceremony it felt Star Wars.

[Fallstar]

Leoroc wrote...

A game can absolutely have a cinematic feel and still be COMPLETELY AWESOME. Even an RPG. KotOR felt far more like playing/interacting in a solid Star Wars movie than any other Star Wars game (or even the prequel trilogy in its entirety). From the the title crawl to the award ceremony it felt Star Wars.

Yes an rpg can have a cinematic feel and still be fantastic. Most modern rpgs have a heavy cinematic focus. It's how you balance that focus on cutscenes and dramatic camera shots with player interactivity that is important.

For example: Seemingly unwinnable fight in Origins - when Ser Cauthrien accosts you. You still have the chance to fight and even win. Equal seemingly unwinnable fight in DA2 - when the Arishok decides enough is enough. You are forced to run away so they can get some cool dramatic shots of guards getting killed. That's cinematicism (and other things for sure, they'd have needed 15 minutes of a branching story for one) getting in the way of player interactivity.

[Cirram55]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Because quite frankly they can do it better. They know the story , they know how the character fits into the story. But they won't take that final step to Witcher2/DX which is where the cinematic style comes together.
The exact opposite is IWD/II where the only thing you are required to do is like PnP come up with a background that gets the party to the starting point. The trade off is there is no connection between the characters and the story beyond those you create with your imagination.

I understand what you mean, I really do.
Never in DAII did Hawke feel part of the world around him, so had s/he been more of a fixed character NPCs could comment on - being her/him Kirkwall's freaking champion - it would've been much better. The payoff, though, is quite obvious: you don't always get to like the PC. This happened to me with Shepard in ME3, and even with Hawke to a certain extent, which, considering how much effort went into the three-personalities system, should be very eloquent, but I'll admit it's mostly due to dull and predictable writing on the developer's part, since the same didn't happen with any other fixed character, while Shep, for example, just came out as a silly, silly child to me.
Right now, I wouldn't trust Bioware to make a good fixed PC at all, having seen the cheesy lines and general depth of their latest dialogues, which for the most part resembles more bad fan fiction.

Anyway, I've got no real preference regarding fixed or non-fixed PCs, and I'll aknowledge that even DA:O forced you to be a Warden, for example, so limitations are always there.
Bioware, however, have already stated that we are going to get the same DAII semi-fixed stuff.
So the whole "1st person narrative vs. 3rd person" argument is as useful as the "silent vs. voiced protagonist" debate. And, as I've already said, interactive movies (the good sort, at least) are not in the direction DA is heading.

Modifié par Cirram55, 18 juillet 2012 - 03:12 .

[NKKKK]

If DA2 would have had a three year development, it would have been a good game.

Modifié par NKKKK, 18 juillet 2012 - 03:55 .