329 réponses à ce sujet

[karushna5]

Please don't mistake this for what it isn't. But I would like to see
more companions and just people in general who have a bit of ethnicity. I
loved that Isabela was someone other than white and that they changed
that, which is great, but er all colors of the rainbow?

It is a
fantasy setting and I just feel that in such a setting there could be
more varience in the NPCs and thus companions. If it is an option for
our characters, shouldn't it be possible for swarthy elves and dwarves
or even asian looking of all types as well? If everyone is fine with sexuality, which I love, it feels fine to put a medieval setting where people may look different than your typical medieval French, British, Spanish population.

[Chiramu]

The Thedas world would have to expand to include a lot of different ethnicities.

They could of course always change the Kossith to resemble more Asian people, otherwise the world map would have to grow bigger and we would need an adventuring character to get some Asian-esque companions :<.

[karushna5]

It is not too hard. Deciding skin tone for a few random NPCs just makes more sense for an inclusive group like Bioware.

[Cimeas]

Yeah but what he's saying is that Thedas is like Medieval Europe, it's the continent of white people, other ethnicities wouldn't make sense unless they were traders or travellers, but the problem with that is that the equivalents of Africa/Asia/America aren't even known, they haven't been discovered yet.

I for one, would love to see the DA world expand. It's like saying 'Why didn't Jade Empire have any white people?' (Except Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom The Magnificent Bastard, of course). Well, because it was set in fantasy China.

I suppose they could have an 'outlander' from Asia in DA too. It would be awesome if there was an Easter egg that they came from the 'Jade Empire' or some obscure reference to JE.

Modifié par Cimeas, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:27 .

[Maclimes]

Cimeas wrote...

Yeah but what he's saying is that Thedas is like Medieval Europe, it's the continent of white people, other ethnicities wouldn't make sense unless they were traders or travellers, but the problem with that is that the equivalents of Africa/Asia/America aren't even known, they haven't been discovered yet.

I for one, would love to see the DA world expand. It's like saying 'Why didn't Jade Empire have any white people?' (Except Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom The Magnificent Bastard, of course). Well, because it was set in fantasy China.
 

 

I agree. I'm not opposed to other ethnicities at all, but I totally understand why they're not there. It's basically medieval Europe. 

Cimeas wrote... 
I suppose they could have an 'outlander' from Asia in DA too. It would be awesome if there was an Easter egg that they came from the 'Jade Empire' or some obscure reference to JE.

I haven't played JE in a very long time, so I don't remember the lore details of how magic and and whatnot worked, exactly, but could the Jade Empire actually be in the same world as Thedas, just on the other side of the planet? Would make for some awesome crossover potential...

[LobselVith8]

This complaint has been brought up before, and the developers seemed very resistant to the idea. Kirkwall, as a port for ships and travelers, would have made sense to be a hub for different groups of people across Thedas (which would mirror our own history). If Dragon Age III is supposed to take place across Thedas, it would make sense to have characters and companions who are as diverse as the people.

[FKA_Servo]

Oh look, it's this thread again. Let's see if it shakes out any differently than it did the first hundred times.

I'm with you, OP. DA could be a whole lot more diverse, and this is taking into consideration the real-world "historical" basis (which I think is bunk, because even if Thedas is modeled after medieval Europe, it's not medieval Europe). We'll see what happens in DA3 - I'd love a pleasant surprise. We have, after all, only seen two very small parts of Thedas.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 03:15 .

[Megavice]

in the Forgotten Realms there was a varitey of different continents filled with a people strictly of a specific culture, remember Maztica?

Thedas is a representation of Medevial europe, more so than most other rpg's i've seen. As you basically have France, Spain, England and the Holy Roman Empire (Germany) or the Byzantine Empire i guess, thats in regards to the Tevinter.  their fictional counterparts even follow the same idea's loosely in terms of culture and language.

I dont think it would really fit within the game lore to have vastly different ethnic groups all in one place. That didn't happen during those days, while there was surely contact it was no where near on the same level today.

They will probrably do it like how it was done in the other games with mentions of these places  and meeting certain characters who are from there but not large groups of them.

Besides in these games different ethinc groups means Elves, Dawrves and humans. anyway i dont have a problem with it but it seems rather pointless to put in.  In anycase i think if Bioware did that they'd get some fans demanding to see asian dwarfs and such lol. Tbh i dont think alot of gamers in general are really that bothered or would care if a few random npc's that no one cares about were a specfic colour. i mean, they are just pixles.

Modifié par Megavice, 17 juillet 2012 - 04:06 .

[Wrathion]

Megavice wrote...

Thedas is a representation of Medevial europe, more so than most other rpg's i've seen. 

Yup, an accurate representation of Medieval Europe. With the dragons and darkspawn and everything...

Besides in these games different ethinc groups means Elves, Dawrves and humans. anyway i dont have a problem with it but it seems rather pointless to put in.  In anycase i think if Bioware did that they'd get some fans demanding to see asian dwarfs and such lol. Tbh i dont think alot of gamers in general are really that bothered or would care if a few random npc's that no one cares about were a specfic colour. i mean, they are just pixles.

Fictional races are okay...but real ones are "unrealistic". 

Alright, honey. Just stop.

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 17 juillet 2012 - 05:28 .

[karushna5]

Once again, with that angle, they shouldn't be fine with sexuality being free either. Medieval Europe was decidedly not friendly in that regard, yet they changed it with no fuss to add inclusiveness. I believe Ethnicity can be the same way. Make Thedas in general a place where different groups live already.

Didn't know this was said before, sorry about that, what did the devs say in those threads?

[Wrathion]

karushna5 wrote...


Didn't know this was said before, sorry about that, what did the devs say in those threads?

Only white people live in Thedas except for the tiny little country filled with brown people, that conveniently dislikes leaving and are rarely seen around except for a sexy pirate or two. Because that's realistic.

Basically.

[Eternal Phoenix]

There's a lot of dark skinned people in Dragon Age. I seem to recall encountering a lot in Dragon Age: Origins.

Now that you mention it, I wonder if there's a Chinese inspired nation in the DA universe where the people look Chinese...

There probably is somewhere but not on Thedas. At least we have the Orlasians who are clearly based off of France. Duncan and Isabella come from Rivain which is probably based off of Spain or some other Mediterranean place.

Then you have Antiva which is clearly inspired by Italy. So I think there is a lot of ethnicity but the current games have been set in English inspired nations and therefore most of the people we've seen are based off of the English. (I don't really think Kirkwall is based off of any nation but it seems there's a lot of Fereldans there and Orlasians too)

If the next game is set in Orlais then we're going to be encountering a lot of people with french accents but they're going to look typically like Fereldans too right?

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 17 juillet 2012 - 05:45 .

[FKA_Servo]

karushna5 wrote...

Once again, with that angle, they shouldn't be fine with sexuality being free either. Medieval Europe was decidedly not friendly in that regard, yet they changed it with no fuss to add inclusiveness. I believe Ethnicity can be the same way. Make Thedas in general a place where different groups live already.

Didn't know this was said before, sorry about that, what did the devs say in those threads?

That's the kicker - from what we know, it already is. As far as other threads, the devs were mostly quiet until the threads were sunk by a number of loud, poorly informed posters, at which point they were locked. DG had some input in one thread that's worth reading - I'll edit if I can find the link.

As far as the rest of Thedas? We have Rivain, for starters, and we know of other human populations north of Ferelden and The Free Marches, near the equator. There was an advanced civilization of people living on Par Vollen before it fell to the Qunari. And there are huge areas of Thedas that we don't even know about yet, not to mention continents beyond.

Even if someone wants to use the justification that it's "based" on medieval Europe to explain the lack of diversity, the game still fails in it's portrayal of places like Denerim and Krikwall. These are big port cities and population hubs, which would see trade and traffic from all over the world. In real-life, and throughout real history, cities comparable to these - your Romes, Londons, etc. - would have been far more multicultural and cosmopolitan than Kirkwall and Denerim appeared.

[Megavice]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Thedas is a representation of Medevial europe, more so than most other rpg's i've seen. 

Yup, an accurate representation of Medieval Europe. With the dragons and darkspawn and everything...

Besides in these games different ethinc groups means Elves, Dawrves and humans. anyway i dont have a problem with it but it seems rather pointless to put in.  In anycase i think if Bioware did that they'd get some fans demanding to see asian dwarfs and such lol. Tbh i dont think alot of gamers in general are really that bothered or would care if a few random npc's that no one cares about were a specfic colour. i mean, they are just pixles.

Fictional races are okay...but real ones are "unrealistic". 

Alright, honey. Just stop.

Did i ever say it was a complete  accurate  representation of Europe? Of course not. However it's clear that bioware were inspired and influnced by Europe and that the setting is basically supposed to be Europe in a very loose sense.

Once again when did i ever say that fictional races are okay while real ones are not? i think you should read over it again.

[CuriousArtemis]

Megavice wrote...

Besides in these games different ethinc groups means Elves, Dawrves and humans.
 

  

Who all happen to be white.

 anyway i dont have a problem with it but it seems rather pointless to put in.
  

  

Taking a wild guess here and assuming you are not a person of color.

In anycase i think if Bioware did that they'd get some fans demanding to see asian dwarfs and such lol. 

  

Which would be just terrible, I know.  Ew, Asians! 


 

 Tbh i dont think alot of gamers in general are really that bothered or would care if a few random npc's that no one cares about were a specfic colour. i mean, they are just pixles. 

  

How to put this nicely.  I'm sure a lot of white gamers don't mind that they are over-represented in western-produced games like the Dragon Age franchise.

Black and brown players who want to see themselves in a fantasy setting, what a joke!  Those people should know their place.  (Right?)

I read a fantasy book that had people of all color in it.  Sometimes a person would have skin black as coal, and another would have pale yellow skin, and someone else would have peachy skin.  It was mentioned in passing.  A gang of travelers were predominantly dark-skinned; a noble was also dark-skinned, and so was a personal guard.  No explanation given.

Somehow the author managed to still tell an awesome story ... black people and all.

I know, crazy.

[Wrathion]

Megavice wrote...

Did i ever say it was a complete  accurate  representation of Europe? Of course not. However it's clear that bioware were inspired and influnced by Europe and that the setting is basically supposed to be Europe in a very loose sense.

Oh good, then you agree with me. Thedas was influenced by Europe during that period in it's history. White people weren't the only ones that lived there. So, everyone being white makes no sense. Yay! Solidarity.

Once again when did i ever say that fictional races are okay while real ones are not? i think you should read over it again.

Oh, you're right I did read that one wrong. Carry on then, sir.

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 17 juillet 2012 - 05:51 .

[FKA_Servo]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

karushna5 wrote...


Didn't know this was said before, sorry about that, what did the devs say in those threads?

Only white people live in Thedas except for the tiny little country filled with brown people, that conveniently dislikes leaving and are rarely seen around except for a sexy pirate or two. Because that's realistic.

Basically.

Well, this is a actually a pretty spot on summary of what DG said. He also said that he wants to avoid "tokenism" - which was well received by some anti-PC "truth tellers."

I have issues with this - I don't see how "tokenism" is something he needs to consider in what is a fictional setting and not the real world, for starters. But even so - we have a continent situated and described in such a way that accounts for other races to be in existence - widespread, even. We have knowledge of human populations that we've never seen, and we have knowledge of geographic areas that we haven't visited.

I suspect that the overwhelming whiteness of DA thus far has been unintentional - in the sense that white is *always* the default (see the "iconic" protagonist for pretty much every Bioware game apart from Jade Empire). It's important that we call attention to it, because there is certainly no hard justification for it in the game's lore and setting.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 06:22 .

[karushna5]

What are anti-Pc truth tellers, mean?

[FKA_Servo]

karushna5 wrote...

What are anti-Pc truth tellers, mean?

In a word, the jerks. The language filter and code of conduct restrict me from using the term I ordinarily might.

[Megavice]

motomotogirl wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Besides in these games different ethinc groups means Elves, Dawrves and humans.
 

  

Who all happen to be white.

 anyway i dont have a problem with it but it seems rather pointless to put in.
  

  

Taking a wild guess here and assuming you are not a person of color.

In anycase i think if Bioware did that they'd get some fans demanding to see asian dwarfs and such lol. 

  

Which would be just terrible, I know.  Ew, Asians! 


 

 Tbh i dont think alot of gamers in general are really that bothered or would care if a few random npc's that no one cares about were a specfic colour. i mean, they are just pixles. 

  

How to put this nicely.  I'm sure a lot of white gamers don't mind that they are over-represented in western-produced games like the Dragon Age franchise.

Black and brown players who want to see themselves in a fantasy setting, what a joke!  Those people should know their place.  (Right?)

I read a fantasy book that had people of all color in it.  Sometimes a person would have skin black as coal, and another would have pale yellow skin, and someone else would have peachy skin.  It was mentioned in passing.  A gang of travelers were predominantly dark-skinned; a noble was also dark-skinned, and so was a personal guard.  No explanation given.

Somehow the author managed to still tell an awesome story ... black people and all.

I know, crazy.

Hah. So, now the assumption is being made that i am racist just because i am not bothered by the fact that i didn't see a few random npc's that weren't white?

Oh and i wouldn't care if i played a game were the majority of people's colour was black or another colour that wasn't white. I certinally wouldn't feel as you do about it. But if you really need Bioware to change a few random npc's then go ahead.

But seriously, why am i suddenly being branded as the hate filled white racist guy here? I never said it shouldn't happen or i was against that, in fact i was pretty clear on the matter

i didn't give a damn and i still dont.

so please, do yourself a favour and stop making assumptions about me or my postion on the situation.

in regards to Europe:

 i never said that it was a place filled with soley white people i said contact was rare and what i meant was that was, you typically wouldn't find a large mix within a typically medevial city or countryside back in the day.

While i know there was contact of course i did not mean that in a way in which your average medevial man would turn a corner of his back water villiage and find a large mix of ethinc groups. If i am wrong about all of that, then  i am wrong.

[Wrathion]

Megavice wrote...

Hah. So, now the assumption is being made that i am racist just because i am not bothered by the fact that i didn't see a few random npc's that weren't white?

No, one said you were racist. But i'm all for self-awareness so have at it.

Oh and i wouldn't care if i played a game were the majority of people's colour was black or another colour that wasn't white. I certinally wouldn't feel as you do about it. But if you really need Bioware to change a few random npc's then go ahead.

Of course. You should have stopped right here.

But seriously, why am i suddenly being branded as the hate filled white racist guy here? I never said it shouldn't happen or i was against that, in fact i was pretty clear on the matter.

hahahahahaha...hahaha...hahaa

i didn't give a damn and i still dont.

so please, do yourself a favour and stop making assumptions about me or my postion on the situation.

lol you position is quite obvious. The representation of non-white characters in no important to you, so you don't see what all the hullaballoo is about. And then you decided to tell us...like anyone cared. :>

in regards to Europe:

 i never said that it was a place filled with soley white people i said contact was rare and what i meant was that was, you typically wouldn't find a large mix within a typically medevial city or countryside back in the day.

While i know there was contact of course i did not mean that in a way in which your average medevial man would turn a corner of his back water villiage and find a large mix of ethinc groups. If i am wrong about all of that, then  i am wrong.

You're wrong.
The internet is useful for these things. Use Google before you speak. plskthx

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 17 juillet 2012 - 06:10 .

[FKA_Servo]

Megavice wrote...


Hah. So, now the assumption is being made that i am racist just because i am not bothered by the fact that i didn't see a few random npc's that weren't white?

Oh and i wouldn't care if i played a game were the majority of people's colour was black or another colour that wasn't white. I certinally wouldn't feel as you do about it. But if you really need Bioware to change a few random npc's then go ahead.

But seriously, why am i suddenly being branded as the hate filled white racist guy here? I never said it shouldn't happen or i was against that, in fact i was pretty clear on the matter

i didn't give a damn and i still dont.

so please, do yourself a favour and stop making assumptions about me or my postion on the situation.

I think maybe you're missing the point - that was a fairly accurate deconstruction of what you said.

I do not think that this poster was necessarily saying you're a racist - I think s/he was pointing out that you're oblivious, because as you say yourself, you don't notice these things and don't care when you do. It's not the worst thing in the world - most people are oblivious to this - but it's harmful, nevertheless. You should work on that - as should everyone, ideally. Empathy is something that I would hope is inborn, but awareness is something that needs to be cultivated.

This is why the "iconic" face of Bioware's three biggest franchises in recent years have been a white dude with dark hair. Not enough people notice it, or care enough about it to comment on it. Thankfully, some people do. Especially with Bioware, fans have called them out when they felt they were on the wrong course and been able to influence positive change - this is seen clearly in the inclusive romances in Mass Effect (and arguably the implementation of same in DA2). The issue here is not identical, but the sentiment is the same.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 06:23 .

[TheStrand221]

Ah this thread again, the resistance to this issue never ceases to amaze me.

All I have to say is that arguments about Thedas being based on Medieval Europe are irrelevant, because that isn't an excuse for the situation. This argument, and even devs have repeated it, boils down to this:

"We chose to design a setting in such a way that it would preclude encountering non-whites except in the most extreme circumstances. There not being non-whites is consistent with the setting, therefore it isn't racist. Including non-whites would be tokenism."

How is it they don't see that the real issue was the original design choice? Why did they write this setting so that everyone is white? That's the root of the problem, not the skin tone of random NPCs placed with no reason.

Contrast this with Skyrim. It's set in the homeland of the Nords, based on Scandenavia, which is as white as it gets outside of an albino convention. Yet you frequently encounter characters of color. Is it immersion breaking? No. Does it spoil that epic Norse feel of the setting? No. Because the setting of Tamriel is written to support the idea. They're traders, or immigrants, or soldiers in an imperial army that draws from all corners of the land. It isn't tokenism and it improves the experience, it doesn't detract from it. All because the Elder Scrolls devs, way back in the early 90s, thought it would be cool to have more diversity in their setting.

Modifié par TheStrand221, 17 juillet 2012 - 06:44 .

[FKA_Servo]

TheStrand221 wrote...

Ah this thread again, the resistance to this issue never ceases to amaze me.

All I have to say is that arguments about Thedas being based on Medieval Europe are irrelevant, because that isn't an excuse for the situation. This argument, and even devs have repeated it, boils down to this:

"We chose to design a setting in such a way that it would preclude encountering non-whites except in the most extreme circumstances. There not being non-whites is consistent with the setting, therefore it isn't racist. Including non-whites would be tokenism."

How is it they don't see that the real issue was the original design choice? Why did they write this setting so that everyone is white? That's the root of the problem, not the skin tone of random NPCs placed with no reason.

Contrast this with Skyrim. It's set in the homeland of the Nords, based on Scandenavia, which is as white as it gets outside of an albino convention. Yet you frequently encounter characters of color. Is it immersion breaking? No. Does it spoil that epic Norse feel of the setting? No. Because the setting of Tamriel is written to support the idea. They're traders, or immigrants, or soldiers in an imperial army that draws from all corners of the land. It isn't tokenism and it improves the experience, it doesn't detract from it. All because the Elder Scrolls devs, way back in the early 90s, thought it would be cool to have more diversity in their setting.

This describes the issue as well or better than anything else I've seen. Pretty much perfect.

The fact that this...

We chose to design a setting in such a way that it would preclude encountering non-whites except in the most extreme circumstances. Therenot being non-whites is consistent with the setting, therefore it isn't racist. Including non-whites would be tokenism.

...is entirely unsupported, and in many ways contradicted, by the setting as it's described (beyond, of course, those developer blurbs and the limited scope of the first two games) is what kills me. People scream about the respecting the "integrity" of the setting, when adding a little diversity would accomplish that better than just about anything else I can think of.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 06:57 .

[Megavice]

TommyServo wrote...

Megavice wrote...


Hah. So, now the assumption is being made that i am racist just because i am not bothered by the fact that i didn't see a few random npc's that weren't white?

Oh and i wouldn't care if i played a game were the majority of people's colour was black or another colour that wasn't white. I certinally wouldn't feel as you do about it. But if you really need Bioware to change a few random npc's then go ahead.

But seriously, why am i suddenly being branded as the hate filled white racist guy here? I never said it shouldn't happen or i was against that, in fact i was pretty clear on the matter

i didn't give a damn and i still dont.

so please, do yourself a favour and stop making assumptions about me or my postion on the situation.

I think maybe you're missing the point - that was a fairly accurate deconstruction of what you said.

I do not think that this poster was necessarily saying you're a racist - I think s/he was pointing out that you're oblivious, because as you say yourself, you don't notice these things and don't care when you do. It's not the worst thing in the world - most people are oblivious to this - but it's harmful, nevertheless. You should work on that - as should everyone, ideally. Empathy is something that I would hope is inborn, but awareness is something that needs to be cultivated.

This is why the "iconic" face of Bioware's three biggest franchises in recent years have been a white dude with dark hair. Not enough people notice it, or care enough about it to comment on it. Thankfully, some people do. Especially with Bioware, fans have called them out when they felt they were on the wrong course and been able to influence positive change - this is seen clearly in the inclusive romances in Mass Effect (and arguably the implementation of same in DA2). The issue here is not identical, but the sentiment is the same.

If people have such an issue with it then so be it and if people have such an issue with what i said then i apologise.

I wasn't trying to offend anyone and i'm not oblivous to it. but then again i've not played quite a few bioware games in a while, i just recently started Dragon Age Orgins again so i wasn't aware it was such a big issue in Bioware games that people have. So perhaps i was oblivous to a certain point and oblivous that people were bothered by it, as i think the OP was talking about a few random npc's that you dont really talk to and are just in the background, i didn't think most people would care. Because i wouldn't care if Dragon Age had very few white people in it. Now if they was portraying white people or black people or any other race in a negative light then i would of course have an issue with it. I can see where everyone is coming from though and i can see why some would feel angry at this. So i am sorry if i offended someone by saying basically "who cares?" 

about Europe: i'm curious from a histroical point of view, as i know that there was interactions between different ethnic groups due to the Crusades and the Reconquista. Elizabeth the second was even thinking of making an alliance with the moors to fight back against the Spainish and the play Othello clearly showed there was a level of racial diversity.

However, what i was saying was that you wouldn't find someone who was of a different ethinc background in every town, like the really small towns in anycase.
but i did look it up just now briefly and  did find some interesting things however i was still correct in my statement it seems that not every place had a large ammount of ethinc diversity. However i do still stand corrected in some points and i can accept that i was wrong.