329 réponses à ce sujet

[Zkyire]

GavrielKay wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
Uhuru (think that's right) is a part of the crew,she does an important job, she has a reason for being there because she is good at what she does.
What the people here are asking is the equivelent of having her appear on the Enterprise just so she can kiss Kirk. Maybe it's just me but I find that idea far more offensive.

The role of communications officer was integral to the story, that it be filled by a young black woman was not.  What it was however, was a bold move to show not only a woman in an important role on the bridge of military vessel, but a black woman to boot.  It was a nice move on their part to invent a future where the prejudices of the time (1960's) had been overcome.  At the time it was very controversial.

What some of the people on here are asking is for fantasy worlds which are created wholesale from the imaginations of people to maybe not be 95% caucasian, 95% of the time.  I don't think fantasy worlds should be an even mix of every conceivable player race, but if you're going to invent a world for thousands of people to explore, there's no reason why it HAS to be nearly all caucasian either.

That's a fair point.

I don't want to be exploring Ferelden and see an even mix of every race. And then in a future game be in Antiva "I wonder what the demographics of this.. place.. look.. oh it's the exact same as everywhere else." Countries of Thedas should be as unique as possible.

In saying that I *want* Bioware to explore other countries for future Dragon Age titles that aren't predominantly white, rather than them approaching it using the "You're all mixed here.. and here.. and here.. and here". Ferelden and Rivain should be polar opposites of one another. Ferelden was predominantly white with a few non whites so Rivain should be predominantly dark skinned with a few whites.

brushyourteeth wrote...

Actually
the next DA game is going to feature most of known Thedas - Fereldan,
Orlais, the Free marches, Nevarra, and even the southern tips of Antiva
and the Tevinter Imperium. Everywhere except the far north. Check it out. 

So
I totally agree. As we move further north it would be awesome to see
some new ethnicities in Thedas. And with the warm climates up north it
totally makes sense. 

Oh yeah I completely forgout about that. Why did I think it was just Orlais? But yeah, with each passing game we'll see more and more.

Modifié par Zkyire, 23 juillet 2012 - 06:38 .

[AkiKishi]

GavrielKay wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
Uhuru (think that's right) is a part of the crew,she does an important job, she has a reason for being there because she is good at what she does.
What the people here are asking is the equivelent of having her appear on the Enterprise just so she can kiss Kirk. Maybe it's just me but I find that idea far more offensive.

The role of communications officer was integral to the story, that it be filled by a young black woman was not.  What it was however, was a bold move to show not only a woman in an important role on the bridge of military vessel, but a black woman to boot.  It was a nice move on their part to invent a future where the prejudices of the time (1960's) had been overcome.  At the time it was very controversial.

What some of the people on here are asking is for fantasy worlds which are created wholesale from the imaginations of people to maybe not be 95% caucasian, 95% of the time.  I don't think fantasy worlds should be an even mix of every conceivable player race, but if you're going to invent a world for thousands of people to explore, there's no reason why it HAS to be nearly all caucasian either.

Not realy what I was getting at. Was she added to the cast just so they could run the story about her kissing Kirk ? I don't think she was. I think that just arose later.

According to th climate and since we are dealing with a world with no real travel it kind of does mean that. Populations aside from merchants,explorers etc. will be extremely localised. In other words, it depends where you go in the world.

The BME in the country I live is 2.1% and we do live in a world where travel is easy.

Translated that would be for every 100 NPCs 2 would be something other than white.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Excuse me, I'm a grown man. I don't need my Little Pony to know that friendship is good.
...
The next person trying to ram tolerance in my face is gonna get a fistfull of "tolerance of physical laws of collision" in his.

Apparently you do need that My Little Pony. 

How on earth did you manage to get so worked up about the idea of having more racial diversity in Dragon Age that you start talking about punching people?

Oh, I'm not against the idea of more racial advesity.
I'm agaisnt that idea being forced under some flase pretenses of "morals" and "equality" and accusatiosn of "racism".

[brushyourteeth]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Oh, I'm not against the idea of more racial advesity.
I'm agaisnt that idea being forced under some flase pretenses of "morals" and "equality" and accusatiosn of "racism".

I'm fine with it.  You know, just for the record and everything.

[GavrielKay]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Not realy what I was getting at. Was she added to the cast just so they could run the story about her kissing Kirk ? I don't think she was. I think that just arose later.

According to th climate and since we are dealing with a world with no real travel it kind of does mean that. Populations aside from merchants,explorers etc. will be extremely localised. In other words, it depends where you go in the world.

The BME in the country I live is 2.1% and we do live in a world where travel is easy.

I don't think I stated my point clearly enough.

The writers/developers created Thedas.  They made decisions about every aspect of what that world would be like.  At some point they decided that it would emulate medieval Europe and that even a trading hub would still be predominantly white.

They are allowed to make those decisions.  And consumers are allowed to fault them for missing an opportunity to portray something else.

Star Trek, for example, can now be held up as an example of forward thinking and supporting civil rights.  They didn't have to do it the way they did, the communications officer could have been just another guy on the bridge of a starship and all of the stories would have changed accordingly.  But the decision that they actually made was to be ground breaking and progressive.  They chose to create a future world where gender and race discrimination had been left behind and a black woman could serve an important role right alongside the men.  It was not an entirely popular decision at the time, but I think it was part of their success.  They created an imaginary future where many of the problems of the day had been solved and that was appealing to a lot of people.

BioWare didn't choose to be ground breaking.  They chose to be safe and familiar and use medieval Europe as their foundation and that led to any number of other decsions including not a lot of racial diversity.  They are fully within their rights to have done so, but they can still be criticized for that like any other decision they made.  They did miss an opportunity to be ground breaking and people noticed and called them on it.

No reason for anger here, but no reason to try to silence critics by saying 'hey, it's supposed to be medieval Europe!'  There wasn't any need for it to be that, or to emulate it to such a degree anyway.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
Not realy what I was getting at. Was she added to the cast just so they could run the story about her kissing Kirk ? I don't think she was. I think that just arose later.

According to th climate and since we are dealing with a world with no real travel it kind of does mean that. Populations aside from merchants,explorers etc. will be extremely localised. In other words, it depends where you go in the world.

The BME in the country I live is 2.1% and we do live in a world where travel is easy.

I don't think I stated my point clearly enough.

The writers/developers created Thedas.  They made decisions about every aspect of what that world would be like.  At some point they decided that it would emulate medieval Europe and that even a trading hub would still be predominantly white.

They are allowed to make those decisions.  And consumers are allowed to fault them for missing an opportunity to portray something else.

I would call such a fault utterly and totally irrelevant.
I can just as easily fault them for making Merrils robes green and not blue. They missed an opportunity to portray something else there too!

Star Trek, for example, can now be held up as an example of forward thinking and supporting civil rights.  They didn't have to do it the way they did, the communications officer could have been just another guy on the bridge of a starship and all of the stories would have changed accordingly.  But the decision that they actually made was to be ground breaking and progressive.  They chose to create a future world where gender and race discrimination had been left behind and a black woman could serve an important role right alongside the men.  It was not an entirely popular decision at the time, but I think it was part of their success.  They created an imaginary future where many of the problems of the day had been solved and that was appealing to a lot of people.

Which made sense for ST since ST was the future. Mixing races is a LOGICAL projection of the future.
Trying to make a world that feel real, mixing is NOT a logicla projection.

BioWare didn't choose to be ground breaking.  They chose to be safe and familiar and use medieval Europe as their foundation and that led to any number of other decsions including not a lot of racial diversity.  They are fully within their rights to have done so, but they can still be criticized for that like any other decision they made.  They did miss an opportunity to be ground breaking and people noticed and called them on it.

What, you think that would make em ground-breaking? Really?
LOLNO.

No reason for anger here, but no reason to try to silence critics by saying 'hey, it's supposed to be medieval Europe!'  There wasn't any need for it to be that, or to emulate it to such a degree anyway.

An there isn't a need ot be anything else either.
So I'm criticizing you because you could have said something else, but you didn't. You said something I don't like. So I will criticize you till the stars burn out.

And when you finaly get so bored and irritated by my criticism, to the point you are willing to take a ice pick to the ear just to shut me up - then you will know how I feel when I read stupid complaing post #273647236428.

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I would call such a fault utterly and totally irrelevant.

You've done so several times already.  What you call irrelevant is very important to other folks.  To get upset because someone cares more about something than you do is silly.

I can just as easily fault them for making Merrils robes green and not blue. They missed an opportunity to portray something else there too!

Are you really trying to say that racial diversity and acceptance is equivalent to clothing color?

Which made sense for ST since ST was the future. Mixing races is a LOGICAL projection of the future.
Trying to make a world that feel real, mixing is NOT a logicla projection.

Wow.  Way to miss every point that I've tried to make.

[brushyourteeth]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

No reason for anger here, but no reason to try to silence critics by saying 'hey, it's supposed to be medieval Europe!'  There wasn't any need for it to be that, or to emulate it to such a degree anyway.

An there isn't a need ot be anything else either.
So I'm criticizing you because you could have said something else, but you didn't. You said something I don't like. So I will criticize you till the stars burn out.

And when you finaly get so bored and irritated by my criticism, to the point you are willing to take a ice pick to the ear just to shut me up - then you will know how I feel when I read stupid complaing post #273647236428.

You're obviously not too bored to keep complaining yourself.

But by all means, do - immaturity always makes me laugh.

[Dintonta]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
...In short there is absolutely NOTHING better about a high
fantasy world where everyone mixes together. There is no objective
"better". It's just a different take, a different flavor.

I understand what you mean, and I think the quote above sum up pretty well the strong resistance you, and some other posters, oppose to the idea of a more mixed Thedas.
About the 'high fantasy world where everyone mixes together', though, I think you exaggerate what I was actually suggesting : It is accepted that the specific flavor of the DAverse is quite different from one of a typical D&D game (where you could even see a green skinned half-orc samurai pushing his katana 'through and through' Lewis Carroll's Jabberwock...)
And, if I'm not wrong, you wouldn't want to loose such a flavor for the sake of RL societal demands.

Here, I have a question :
Would you find that introducing a single handful of explorers or merchants from another foreign ethnicity (as you recognized a drop of them could have existed in what you admitted being realistic for an ancient setting) would detract from that specific flavor you like, if it would be handed properly as an alternative origin for humans?

And besides, it's easier on the resources.

Good point, that was certainly one of BW considerations.

Modifié par Dintonta, 24 juillet 2012 - 05:54 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I would call such a fault utterly and totally irrelevant.

You've done so several times already.  What you call irrelevant is very important to other folks.  To get upset because someone cares more about something than you do is silly.

And to keep telling poeple everyone should care and everything should revolve about that something is also silly.

I can just as easily fault them for making Merrils robes green and not blue. They missed an opportunity to portray something else there too!

Are you really trying to say that racial diversity and acceptance is equivalent to clothing color?

In the implications for this discussion? Yes.
It's cosmetics. Inclusion of anything and everything is not mandatory, nor is it immoral for not doing so.
After all, why stop there?

If we REALLY want diversity, then we should include everything. Every religion, worldview, color, taste and what-have-you.

Those that are accusing the devs, by treating this as something the devs should be ashamed about, are esentially guilt-tripping them. Impliyng that what they made is somehow wrong/immoral.


The funny reality is that those to complain obsess far more about race than the devs do.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dintonta wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
...In short there is absolutely NOTHING better about a high
fantasy world where everyone mixes together. There is no objective
"better". It's just a different take, a different flavor.

I understand what you mean, and I think the quote above sum up pretty well the strong resistance you, and some other posters, oppose to the idea of a more mixed Thedas.

I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas.
I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas.
I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

You seem to be opposed to people having a different opinion than you do on the issue of diversity, given your comments to GavrielKay. People are addressing diversity in Thedas because it's an issue some of us care about, since it isn't strictly limited to Dragon Age. It has become a problem across many different forms of entertainment. 

[Dintonta]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dintonta wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
...In short there is absolutely NOTHING better about a high
fantasy world where everyone mixes together. There is no objective
"better". It's just a different take, a different flavor.

I understand what you mean, and I think the quote above sum up pretty well the strong resistance you, and some other posters, oppose to the idea of a more mixed Thedas.

I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas.
I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

I understand that.
If such reproachs had not been made, if people have just said they would have prefered to play diversified ethnicities just because they fancied it, and if BW allowed it in DA3, how would you like they introduce such a diversity, keeping in touch with that specific DA realistic flavor you like?

[Fauxnormal]

motomotogirl wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Besides in these games different ethinc groups means Elves, Dawrves and humans.
 

  

Who all happen to be white.

 anyway i dont have a problem with it but it seems rather pointless to put in.
  

  

Taking a wild guess here and assuming you are not a person of color.

In anycase i think if Bioware did that they'd get some fans demanding to see asian dwarfs and such lol. 

  

Which would be just terrible, I know.  Ew, Asians! 


 

 Tbh i dont think alot of gamers in general are really that bothered or would care if a few random npc's that no one cares about were a specfic colour. i mean, they are just pixles. 

  

How to put this nicely.  I'm sure a lot of white gamers don't mind that they are over-represented in western-produced games like the Dragon Age franchise.

Black and brown players who want to see themselves in a fantasy setting, what a joke!  Those people should know their place.  (Right?)

I read a fantasy book that had people of all color in it.  Sometimes a person would have skin black as coal, and another would have pale yellow skin, and someone else would have peachy skin.  It was mentioned in passing.  A gang of travelers were predominantly dark-skinned; a noble was also dark-skinned, and so was a personal guard.  No explanation given.

Somehow the author managed to still tell an awesome story ... black people and all.

I know, crazy.

You are. Flat out.

Pathetic.

[brushyourteeth]

I honestly thought the accusations of racism were ridiculous and out of line until I read through this thread to completion.

... well played, vocal minority. You've drawn the beast out into the light.

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas.
I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

You come off sounding like you oppose it.  If you don't like to read about BioWare being criticized for doing what they do, it is simple enough to just avoid those threads.  What you end up sounding like is that you wish people would stop talking about it so that BioWare won't hear about it and won't be influenced to make changes.  If that isn't your intention, then perhaps toning down the rhetoric would help your actual point shine through.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 24 juillet 2012 - 06:46 .

[LobselVith8]

Fauxnormal wrote...

You are. Flat out.

Pathetic.

I don't think it's pathetic that motomotogirl believes there's nothing wrong with diversity. Non-white protagonists are very rare, and sometimes get white-washed. It's a problem, and some people take issue with it. The fact that some people could care less because it doesn't effect them isn't much of an argument for some of us who want this to change.

[Silfren]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote... I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas. I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

You come off sounding like you oppose it.  If you don't like to read about BioWare being criticized for doing what they do, it is simple enough to just avoid those threads.  What you end up sounding like is that you wish people would stop talking about it so that BioWare won't hear about it and won't be influenced to make changes.  If that isn't your intention, then perhaps toning down the rhetoric would help your actual point shine through.

That's because they DO oppose it, but it's safer to couch their rather vehement, angry, and repetitive opposition in rational-sounding concern-troll terms than to just admit to their privileged, prejudiced perspective as someone whose dominant perspective is used to being catered to and really, REALLY, doesn't want to see that catering come to an end.

Sorry, but all this angry rhetoric is NOT what a person would be writing if they were actually in favor of diversity.  A person doesn't spend so much time and energy attacking the idea with such vitriol and condescension unless they are actively opposed todiversity itself, not merely the reasons for it, as is being pleaded in the above quote.  They're just tacking on that bit about "it being done for the wrong reasons" to give their position a sympathetic veneer.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:46 .

[GodWood]

I can't help but think you're trolling.

[Dintonta]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

You are. Flat out.

Pathetic.

I don't think it's pathetic [...]

You and other posters shouldn't give too much credit to that one's comment.
I surmise he/she has actually no opinion at all about this thread's topic, and just feared that it could tone down. The reason why he/she acts so strangely will be obvious to you if you just take a look upon any of his/her comments in other threads :
He/She shapeshifted once into a big, greeny, fast-regenerating, voracious giant and something went horribly wrong during the casting. He/She is now a prisoner of that new form... I would even bet he/she actually enjoys it...
Nothing here which is worth worrying about it : In a few years the spell will wear off.

I'm sincerely sorry to make such a hard answer to you, but unless you would like to see this thread's tone continue to escalate, in hopes it would help your point to be understood by those who don't (while it hasn't for now), there is no reason to give the said troll a bone to gnaw on.

[AkiKishi]

GavrielKay wrote...
BioWare didn't choose to be ground breaking.  They chose to be safe and familiar and use medieval Europe as their foundation and that led to any number of other decsions including not a lot of racial diversity.  They are fully within their rights to have done so, but they can still be criticized for that like any other decision they made.  They did miss an opportunity to be ground breaking and people noticed and called them on it.

No reason for anger here, but no reason to try to silence critics by saying 'hey, it's supposed to be medieval Europe!'  There wasn't any need for it to be that, or to emulate it to such a degree anyway.

They chose , past tense. Thedas is already established. I don't think being ground breaking has anything to do with it. First and foremost it's a game setting. Things that would allow more diversity generally damage the setting in other ways. In Mass Effect, that's not really an issue since Earth is the focus and not individual parts of it. Star Trek being much the same. Bioware job is to make games, not political statements.

But that is what they chose to do and you can't mess around with the setting just because some people don't like it.

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
BioWare didn't choose to be ground breaking.  They chose to be safe and familiar and use medieval Europe as their foundation and that led to any number of other decsions including not a lot of racial diversity.  They are fully within their rights to have done so, but they can still be criticized for that like any other decision they made.  They did miss an opportunity to be ground breaking and people noticed and called them on it.

No reason for anger here, but no reason to try to silence critics by saying 'hey, it's supposed to be medieval Europe!'  There wasn't any need for it to be that, or to emulate it to such a degree anyway.

They chose , past tense. Thedas is already established. I don't think being ground breaking has anything to do with it. First and foremost it's a game setting. Things that would allow more diversity generally damage the setting in other ways. In Mass Effect, that's not really an issue since Earth is the focus and not individual parts of it. Star Trek being much the same. Bioware job is to make games, not political statements.

But that is what they chose to do and you can't mess around with the setting just because some people don't like it.

I have to disagree. Thedas is only partly established - from here the devs can shape the setting however they want.

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

I honestly have no idea what is so threatening about seeing more diversity in video games. I can almost understand people feeling nonchalant if they see it as a non-issue, but getting angry when someone else brings up the topic? What?

[AkiKishi]

brushyourteeth wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
BioWare didn't choose to be ground breaking.  They chose to be safe and familiar and use medieval Europe as their foundation and that led to any number of other decsions including not a lot of racial diversity.  They are fully within their rights to have done so, but they can still be criticized for that like any other decision they made.  They did miss an opportunity to be ground breaking and people noticed and called them on it.

No reason for anger here, but no reason to try to silence critics by saying 'hey, it's supposed to be medieval Europe!'  There wasn't any need for it to be that, or to emulate it to such a degree anyway.

They chose , past tense. Thedas is already established. I don't think being ground breaking has anything to do with it. First and foremost it's a game setting. Things that would allow more diversity generally damage the setting in other ways. In Mass Effect, that's not really an issue since Earth is the focus and not individual parts of it. Star Trek being much the same. Bioware job is to make games, not political statements.

But that is what they chose to do and you can't mess around with the setting just because some people don't like it.

I have to disagree. Thedas is only partly established - from here the devs can shape the setting however they want.

Well they can shape the unknown bits since they are unknown. Like I said much earlier on if we ever get to what passes for the African continent in Thedas and it's full of white people, then something is up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas.
I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

You seem to be opposed to people having a different opinion than you do on the issue of diversity, given your comments to GavrielKay. People are addressing diversity in Thedas because it's an issue some of us care about, since it isn't strictly limited to Dragon Age. It has become a problem across many different forms of entertainment. 

There is a difference between having an oppinion and villifying someone for not having your oppinion - which is what people do when they call Bioware bigoted/immoral for not doing what they want.

It being a problem? Only insomuch as loud people want to make it one. I care about plenty of things that are not in DA, do you see me attacking the devs for not putting them in? Nope.