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[Lotion Soronarr]

Dintonta wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas.
I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

I understand that.
If such reproachs had not been made, if people have just said they would have prefered to play diversified ethnicities just because they fancied it, and if BW allowed it in DA3, how would you like they introduce such a diversity, keeping in touch with that specific DA realistic flavor you like?

I suppose by increaseing the numbers of diverse people in trading humbs and by introducing other continents/lands/empires.

[Lotion Soronarr]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I honestly thought the accusations of racism were ridiculous and out of line until I read through this thread to completion.

... well played, vocal minority. You've drawn the beast out into the light.

Given your own stated stances on oppinions, you are not the one to talk...

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas.
I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

You come off sounding like you oppose it.  If you don't like to read about BioWare being criticized for doing what they do, it is simple enough to just avoid those threads.  What you end up sounding like is that you wish people would stop talking about it so that BioWare won't hear about it and won't be influenced to make changes.  If that isn't your intention, then perhaps toning down the rhetoric would help your actual point shine through.

I can say the same about you. If you don't like being criticized, it's simple enough to avoid threads like this.
Plenty of people in this thread sound like they want to force ethnic diversity everywhere, regardless what everyone else thinks, or regardless what the devs want.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote... I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas. I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

You come off sounding like you oppose it.  If you don't like to read about BioWare being criticized for doing what they do, it is simple enough to just avoid those threads.  What you end up sounding like is that you wish people would stop talking about it so that BioWare won't hear about it and won't be influenced to make changes.  If that isn't your intention, then perhaps toning down the rhetoric would help your actual point shine through.

That's because they DO oppose it, but it's safer to couch their rather vehement, angry, and repetitive opposition in rational-sounding concern-troll terms than to just admit to their privileged, prejudiced perspective as someone whose dominant perspective is used to being catered to and really, REALLY, doesn't want to see that catering come to an end.

Sorry, but all this angry rhetoric is NOT what a person would be writing if they were actually in favor of diversity.  A person doesn't spend so much time and energy attacking the idea with such vitriol and condescension unless they are actively opposed todiversity itself, not merely the reasons for it, as is being pleaded in the above quote.  They're just tacking on that bit about "it being done for the wrong reasons" to give their position a sympathetic veneer.

Your astounding psychological insight puts me at awe...really.

But here's the deal - you don't get to tell me what I think, feel or what rethoric I can or can not use.
Whatever utterly flawed preconcpetions or oppinions you might have doesn't interest me at all.
You don't get to tell me - or anyone else - what I should be writing (according to you).

"If you were truly X you wouldnt' be writing Y"...HA! Your attempt at dismissing everything by paiting me with a wide brush and insinuating I hold a different position, and harbor darker motivations than I do is rather transparent.
You don't know me. Don't even pretend you know what I think or how I think, nor do you know my reasons.
So stop acting like a know-it-psychatrist that are definately aren't.

You should be insted watching your own rethoric, since your own intensity and determination can paint your rather negatively too. Which it does BTW.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I can say the same about you.

I don't think GavrielKay has said that discussion about diversity has prompted her to want to punch the next person who wants to see it, so I don't think the same can be said about her. You are the one who seems to be so angry that people are openly addressing their concern about diversity in the narrative.

Also, I don't see what is wrong about diversity. Certain people are marginalized in all forms of entertainment, and some of us would like to see this changed. Addressing that Kirkwall would have realistically been a melting pot because of its history of bringing slaves from all over Thedas, and its present status as a shipping port and entry way into the Free Marches, I don't see why you dismiss the criticism that's brought forth about the subject.

[Fauxnormal]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I honestly thought the accusations of racism were ridiculous and out of line until I read through this thread to completion.

... well played, vocal minority. You've drawn the beast out into the light.

Yeah. The idiots who scream racisim at every curve and act as if we still live in 1820 really are horrible.

Oh, wait, you meant-

:lol:

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But here's the deal - you don't get to tell me what I think, feel, or what rhetoric I can or can not use.

I can see why Silfren would feel that way about this thread, considering that some posts have amounted to little more than "shut up and be grateful for what little you get." Some people want diversity, but those people seem to be vilified by people like you. Ferelden was established as loosely based on England, but then why make Kirkwall the same when it's clearly not based on England? It isn't supposed to be Ferelden or Orlais, but the developers seem to think that diversity isn't a worthy pursuit. I don't see why. There is equality for both genders in Thedas, there are romantic options for a homosexual protagonist, so what's wrong about the inclusion of diversity? If the developers can twist the treatment of women and the inclusion of open homosexuality for a modern audience, why do some people then insist that diversity shouldn't be included in the narrative simply because medieval England wasn't like that?

Given how some people have come off on this thread as making it seem that Dragon Age is a story for white people, I don't see why you act so surprised that Silfren would be offended at the tone and rhetoric that some people have used for their discussion.

[Joy Divison]

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote... I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas. I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

You come off sounding like you oppose it.  If you don't like to read about BioWare being criticized for doing what they do, it is simple enough to just avoid those threads.  What you end up sounding like is that you wish people would stop talking about it so that BioWare won't hear about it and won't be influenced to make changes.  If that isn't your intention, then perhaps toning down the rhetoric would help your actual point shine through.

That's because they DO oppose it, but it's safer to couch their rather vehement, angry, and repetitive opposition in rational-sounding concern-troll terms than to just admit to their privileged, prejudiced perspective as someone whose dominant perspective is used to being catered to and really, REALLY, doesn't want to see that catering come to an end.

Sorry, but all this angry rhetoric is NOT what a person would be writing if they were actually in favor of diversity.  A person doesn't spend so much time and energy attacking the idea with such vitriol and condescension unless they are actively opposed todiversity itself, not merely the reasons for it, as is being pleaded in the above quote.  They're just tacking on that bit about "it being done for the wrong reasons" to give their position a sympathetic veneer.

Or, they oppose being criticized for making a fantasy world which does not conform to your socio-political agenda.

[T764]

If Ferleden is based on England then there could well be different ethnicities present, Black people were known to be in Roman Britain and by the end of the medieval period we had African and Indian communities.
The only legitimate reasoning against, that i can personaly see, would be technology, i know that in some games i have struggled to find darker skintones that looked natural rather than smeared mud.

[LobselVith8]

Joy Division wrote...

Or, they oppose being criticized for making a fantasy world which does not conform to your socio-political agenda.

Some of them seem to think that Dragon Age is a story for white people, and that white people should be allowed to have their own stories because other countries do as well.

[wsandista]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Joy Division wrote...

Or, they oppose being criticized for making a fantasy world which does not conform to your socio-political agenda.

Some of them seem to think that Dragon Age is a story for white people, and that white people should be allowed to have their own stories because other countries do as well.

I seem to have missed this. I think it was closer to "Jade Empire was set in an oriental setting, so it made sense to have mostly oriental people".

Like I've said before, my problem is that Thedas has already been established as a caucasian region, so having Thedas transform from a rather homogeneous(in regards to human ethnicity) to a racially diverse land, would take some serious retcon(I suppose after DA2 that isn't such a big thing though). I think the best course of action would be to introduce a new continent north of Thedas where the people are darker skinned then those in Thedas.

It still won't happen until they actually use an engine that can handle darker skin though.

[LobselVith8]

wsandista wrote...

I seem to have missed this. I think it was closer to "Jade Empire was set in an oriental setting, so it made sense to have oriental people".

I recall the mention of Jade Empire, but this happened afterward.

As for Thedas being exclusively Caucasian, we have only seen Ferelden, so it wouldn't contradict the narrative to have regions of people that aren't almost predominantly white. The Free Marches, and Kirkwall, would have made sense to have people who actually looked and sounded different than the people from Ferelden (given the emphasis on people who looked and sounded Ferelden, which became ridiculous when people in Kirkwall were no different than people from Ferelden). However, with the lack of diversity in Kirkwall, and developers like Stanley Woo and David Gaider addressing they don't think diversity is a worthy pursuit for the franchise, I don't think it will happen - regardless of the opinions on the engine that is used.

[brushyourteeth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I have to disagree. Thedas is only partly established - from here the devs can shape the setting however they want.

Well they can shape the unknown bits since they are unknown. Like I said much earlier on if we ever get to what passes for the African continent in Thedas and it's full of white people, then something is up.

LOL - indeed!  

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There is a difference between having an oppinion and villifying someone for not having your oppinion - which is what people do when they call Bioware bigoted/immoral for not doing what they want.

It being a problem? Only insomuch as loud people want to make it one. I care about plenty of things that are not in DA, do you see me attacking the devs for not putting them in? Nope.

So there are people who feel really strongly about this. They're going to speak up. When you express your preferences for the next game I'm interested to read those too. Maybe they're annoying, maybe they're even wrong - but the only thing I've heard you express so far is that they shouldn't have their opinion or the gall to post it on what is, shockingly, a Dragon Age opinion forum.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I honestly thought the accusations of racism were ridiculous and out of line until I read through this thread to completion.

... well played, vocal minority. You've drawn the beast out into the light.

Given your own stated stances on oppinions, you are not the one to talk...

I'd love to respond to whatever I did in particular that offended you, but I really don't know what your comment was about.  I hope it will suffice to say that you must think we disagree - we don't. Your statement here is exactly what I agree is the best option:

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I suppose by increaseing the numbers of diverse people in trading humbs and by introducing other continents/lands/empires.

Do I think the devs are racist? Nope. Others have made that accusation but I don't stand by it. I think the technology's racist. I think there's no good reason not to, as others have said, show darker skin tones as the game moves north into warmer climates. So those of us who care will ask for it and see what happens. Maybe you'll even stop being angry that some of us care enough to do that. Maybe the outcome will be great and you'll be glad Bioware took things in that direction. I've not seen racism from you - just what seems like out-of-the-blue aggression. You can't seriously be immature enough to attack anyone who expresses their opinion just because it annoys you or it's different from your own - I refuse to believe it. So I'm genuinely interested in knowing what about this topic actually upsets you so much.

[Lotion Soronarr]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There is a difference between having an oppinion and villifying someone for not having your oppinion - which is what people do when they call Bioware bigoted/immoral for not doing what they want.

It being a problem? Only insomuch as loud people want to make it one. I care about plenty of things that are not in DA, do you see me attacking the devs for not putting them in? Nope.

So there are people who feel really strongly about this. They're going to speak up. When you express your preferences for the next game I'm interested to read those too. Maybe they're annoying, maybe they're even wrong - but the only thing I've heard you express so far is that they shouldn't have their opinion or the gall to post it on what is, shockingly, a Dragon Age opinion forum.

Well, I will express my preferences. Only I won't be a condensending, holier-than-thou ****** about it.

It doesn't matter how strongly you feel about X.
You don't go on demanding and subtly insulting the devs.

Do I think the devs are racist? Nope. Others have made that accusation but I don't stand by it. I think the technology's racist.

That...must be the most rediclous statement ever.....

I think there's no good reason not to, as others have said, show darker skin tones as the game moves north into warmer climates. So those of us who care will ask for it and see what happens. Maybe you'll even stop being angry that some of us care enough to do that. Maybe the outcome will be great and you'll be glad Bioware took things in that direction. I've not seen racism from you - just what seems like out-of-the-blue aggression. You can't seriously be immature enough to attack anyone who expresses their opinion just because it annoys you or it's different from your own - I refuse to believe it. So I'm genuinely interested in knowing what about this topic actually upsets you so much.

You misunderstand - I'm not annoyed by peoples oppinions (for the most part at least).
I'm annoyed at the people in question an how they present those oppinions.
I'm openly hostile to PC gone Wild and forced "equality", because they are just as opressive, insensitive and stupid as open racism/sexism.

[brushyourteeth]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You misunderstand - I'm not annoyed by peoples oppinions (for the most part at least).
I'm annoyed at the people in question an how they present those oppinions.
I'm openly hostile to PC gone Wild and forced "equality", because they are just as opressive, insensitive and stupid as open racism/sexism.

All I've seen so far is suggested equality.

Surely there's room for that.

Granted, not everyone will be nice about it - but as you've said before, you/they don't have to be. Your point has been overshadowed by the fact that you're chewing out people at random, rather than addressing the one or two people you feel like were unfair to the developers.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 25 juillet 2012 - 04:37 .

[GavrielKay]

Joy Divison wrote...
Or, they oppose being criticized for making a fantasy world which does not conform to your socio-political agenda.

But why oppose pointing out that DA is full of white people because BioWare decided to make it so?  I criticize DA for reusing maps, enemies falling from the sky and generally having cartoonish graphics and combat.  I don't see a lot of people vehemently opposing any of those critiques saying why should they do it differently?  When it comes to diversity, there are posters saying that it doesn't fit in the world BioWare created, but I don't recall anyone saying that obviously BioWare created a region where all the caves look the same, so quit complaining.

Diversity or lack thereof is a decision.  If folks wish that more effort had been put into creating a fantasy world that had more diversity, why get upset?  I wish they'd put in fewer flying enemies.  No one says, stop whining, BioWare created a world where thugs can drop off rooftops without getting hurt, just accept it.

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Well, I will express my preferences. Only I won't be a condensending, holier-than-thou ****** about it.

Well, there's the problem then, you actually believe you don't come off sounding like a holier-than-thou ******.  But you do.  When you talk about violently responding to talk about diversity, you do not sound rational.

It doesn't matter how strongly you feel about X.
You don't go on demanding and subtly insulting the devs.

You go on demanding that the critics shut up and insulting them instead.  This is not really an improvement.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 25 juillet 2012 - 04:57 .

[AkiKishi]

GavrielKay wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
Or, they oppose being criticized for making a fantasy world which does not conform to your socio-political agenda.

But why oppose pointing out that DA is full of white people because BioWare decided to make it so?  I criticize DA for reusing maps, enemies falling from the sky and generally having cartoonish graphics and combat.  I don't see a lot of people vehemently opposing any of those critiques saying why should they do it differently?  When it comes to diversity, there are posters saying that it doesn't fit in the world BioWare created, but I don't recall anyone saying that obviously BioWare created a region where all the caves look the same, so quit complaining.

Diversity or lack thereof is a decision.  If folks wish that more effort had been put into creating a fantasy world that had more diversity, why get upset?  I wish they'd put in fewer flying enemies.  No one says, stop whining, BioWare created a world where thugs can drop off rooftops without getting hurt, just accept it.

Because people don't fall from the sky? But in areas similiar to Fereldon if you reduced the population to a % you would find many more white people. Like I said eariler the BEM for my country is 2.1%. In Dragon Age terms thats 2 non white NPC's for every 98 white ones.

Introducing populations that never existed or don't exist in those areas is the sort of unreality that you are saying people are complaining about falling from the sky, caves/buildings looking the same etc. How is introducing more of that a good thing?

Modifié par BobSmith101, 25 juillet 2012 - 05:54 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You misunderstand - I'm not annoyed by peoples oppinions (for the most part at least).
I'm annoyed at the people in question an how they present those oppinions.
I'm openly hostile to PC gone Wild and forced "equality", because they are just as opressive, insensitive and stupid as open racism/sexism.

All I've seen so far is suggested equality.

When you're insunuating the other person is immoral/stupid/bigoted for not accepting your suggestion, you are not just suggesting.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Well, I will express my preferences. Only I won't be a condensending, holier-than-thou ****** about it.

Well, there's the problem then, you actually believe you don't come off sounding like a holier-than-thou ******.  But you do.  When you talk about violently responding to talk about diversity, you do not sound rational.

Am I calling you immoral? Am I acting like my oppinion is superior and the only one?
no.
So no.

It doesn't matter how strongly you feel about X.
You don't go on demanding and subtly insulting the devs.

You go on demanding that the critics shut up and insulting them instead.  This is not really an improvement.

You obviously do not read what I post, because that's not what I was doing.
the subtle difference are lost on you I guess.

[GavrielKay]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Because people don't fall from the sky? But in areas similiar to Fereldon if you reduced the population to a % you would find many more white people. Like I said eariler the BEM for my country is 2.1%. In Dragon Age terms thats 2 non white NPC's for every 98 white ones.

Areas similar to Ferelden?  You mean where there is magic and darkspawn invasions?  Or elves?  Sure, in those areas you hardly ever see non-caucasian folks...

I have 3 questions related to this issue:

1)  Why did they choose to emulate a region and time where diversity was low?  They didn't have to.  It's ok that they did, but it was a choice they didn't have to make.  It is fair to hold them accountable for this choice.

2)  Why was Kirkwall the same as Ferelden, even though it is clearly mentioned as a major trading center, with a sea port.  Oh, and it has a history of being home to thousands of slaves from wherever the Tevinter Empire captured them.  There was a logical reason to include diversity in Kirkwall.  It is fair to hold them accountable for this choice as well.

3)  Thedas is obviously not Earth in any time frame.  Using medieval Europe as a loose inspiration is noted, but if you can have magic, elves, Qunari, dragons, magic dust and demons - why not also stretch it to include mixed races?

I don't recall anyone suggesting that the BioWare offices be stormed and torn down.  This is not a question of "forcing PC" on anyone.  It is a simple matter of pointing out that they could well have added racial diversity to their game and they didn't.  It is perfectly legitimate to notice this and to start a discussion thread about it. 

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Am I calling you immoral? Am I acting like my oppinion is superior and the only one?
no.
So no.

....

The next person trying to ram tolerance in my face is gonna get a fistfull of "tolerance of physical laws of collision" in his.

That sure sounds like feeling your opinion is superior and others should shut up about theirs.

If tolerance were univeral and racism were truly gone, I could understand not wanting to hear any more about it.  But the real world has plenty of intolerance and racism.  These things change by pointing out their existance and ways that they could be reduced.  In my book, tolerance really is superior to a "fistfull" of anything.

[Silfren]

BobSmith101 wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
BioWare didn't choose to be ground breaking.  They chose to be safe and familiar and use medieval Europe as their foundation and that led to any number of other decsions including not a lot of racial diversity.  They are fully within their rights to have done so, but they can still be criticized for that like any other decision they made.  They did miss an opportunity to be ground breaking and people noticed and called them on it.

No reason for anger here, but no reason to try to silence critics by saying 'hey, it's supposed to be medieval Europe!'  There wasn't any need for it to be that, or to emulate it to such a degree anyway.

They chose , past tense. Thedas is already established. I don't think being ground breaking has anything to do with it. First and foremost it's a game setting. Things that would allow more diversity generally damage the setting in other ways. In Mass Effect, that's not really an issue since Earth is the focus and not individual parts of it. Star Trek being much the same. Bioware job is to make games, not political statements.

But that is what they chose to do and you can't mess around with the setting just because some people don't like it.

Things that would allow diversity would damage the setting?  This is a bullsh!t reason for not including diversity.  A scare tactic and nothing more.  I notice that you didn't actually bother to elaborate on what those damages would be, even though that's enough of a bold statement that it behooves you to do so. 

I'm sick and bloody tired of this "making the world more diverse would be making a political statement," nonsense, too. 

If it would be making a political statement to be more diverse, then they are making a political statement by NOT being diverse.  It's a political statement EITHER WAY...trying to argue otherwise is patently absurd.  The only difference is that THIS political statement, referring to the lack of diversity, doesn't bother the dominant group (i.e. white people) because they (we, speaking as a white person myself) aren't affected by decisions that maintain and reflect the present status quo.  

It doesn't matter that DA is a game.  Games are a part of popular culture, and they create and perpetuate the status quo as much as the rest of popular media does.  It is not inconsequential that most forms of media, be they games, movies, music videos, or network t.v. shows, or books, represent the dominant culture, and Bioware games are no different.  White people who complain about minorities objecting to the constant whitewashing process do so for no other reason than they DO NOT see what the problem is.  Unfortunately, as is obvious in this forum, most would rather argue and condemn and insult rather than shut up and try to learn something from what the marginalized groups are trying to tell them.

[Silfren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote... I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas. I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

You come off sounding like you oppose it.  If you don't like to read about BioWare being criticized for doing what they do, it is simple enough to just avoid those threads.  What you end up sounding like is that you wish people would stop talking about it so that BioWare won't hear about it and won't be influenced to make changes.  If that isn't your intention, then perhaps toning down the rhetoric would help your actual point shine through.

That's because they DO oppose it, but it's safer to couch their rather vehement, angry, and repetitive opposition in rational-sounding concern-troll terms than to just admit to their privileged, prejudiced perspective as someone whose dominant perspective is used to being catered to and really, REALLY, doesn't want to see that catering come to an end.

Sorry, but all this angry rhetoric is NOT what a person would be writing if they were actually in favor of diversity.  A person doesn't spend so much time and energy attacking the idea with such vitriol and condescension unless they are actively opposed todiversity itself, not merely the reasons for it, as is being pleaded in the above quote.  They're just tacking on that bit about "it being done for the wrong reasons" to give their position a sympathetic veneer.

Your astounding psychological insight puts me at awe...really.

But here's the deal - you don't get to tell me what I think, feel or what rethoric I can or can not use.
Whatever utterly flawed preconcpetions or oppinions you might have doesn't interest me at all.
You don't get to tell me - or anyone else - what I should be writing (according to you).

"If you were truly X you wouldnt' be writing Y"...HA! Your attempt at dismissing everything by paiting me with a wide brush and insinuating I hold a different position, and harbor darker motivations than I do is rather transparent.
You don't know me. Don't even pretend you know what I think or how I think, nor do you know my reasons.
So stop acting like a know-it-psychatrist that are definately aren't.

You should be insted watching your own rethoric, since your own intensity and determination can paint your rather negatively too. Which it does BTW.

Oh, but I am perfectly free to write what I think about your own words.  They DO reflect a bias, and I'm free to analyze your words to whatever extent I want.  You don't have to like it, but that's a separate issue.  As long as I'm not personally attacking you, I'm well within my rights to say whatever I like about the words you post in a public forum.  Ain't it awesome how that works?

[Zkyire]

I feel like I should post a picture of a roundabout.

Feels appropriate considering the way this thread is going.