329 réponses à ce sujet

[GavrielKay]

Zkyire wrote...

I feel like I should post a picture of a roundabout.

Feels appropriate considering the way this thread is going.

Heh.  A roundabout would at least have some good exit points.

[Sharn01]

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote... I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas. I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

You come off sounding like you oppose it.  If you don't like to read about BioWare being criticized for doing what they do, it is simple enough to just avoid those threads.  What you end up sounding like is that you wish people would stop talking about it so that BioWare won't hear about it and won't be influenced to make changes.  If that isn't your intention, then perhaps toning down the rhetoric would help your actual point shine through.

That's because they DO oppose it, but it's safer to couch their rather vehement, angry, and repetitive opposition in rational-sounding concern-troll terms than to just admit to their privileged, prejudiced perspective as someone whose dominant perspective is used to being catered to and really, REALLY, doesn't want to see that catering come to an end.

Sorry, but all this angry rhetoric is NOT what a person would be writing if they were actually in favor of diversity.  A person doesn't spend so much time and energy attacking the idea with such vitriol and condescension unless they are actively opposed todiversity itself, not merely the reasons for it, as is being pleaded in the above quote.  They're just tacking on that bit about "it being done for the wrong reasons" to give their position a sympathetic veneer.

I hate to be defending Lotion, but you obviously dont know him that well. 

Sometimes he is right, and sometimes he is wrong, but it doesnt matter what the subject is, if he disagree's with you he will let you know it, and if you respond to his post, he will keep responding as well and will continue to do so until you give up, repeating the same arguments over and over again.  I am not bashing him for it, if thats what he likes to do, I say go for it, but you will never convince him your opinion is right if he disagrees with it, he wont even admit facts are true unless he can somehow twist their meaning to support his opinion, otherwise he will just ignore them or use counter arguments that only barely relate to the fact presented.


Just though I would add that for the record, I dont want them to just throw in more races for no reason myself, it needs to fit the lore, and adding more races in trade hubs is probably the easiest way to do it.

Modifié par Sharn01, 25 juillet 2012 - 08:43 .

[The Hierophant]

C'mon guys, at least we got Hubert. *shrugs*

Modifié par The Hierophant, 25 juillet 2012 - 08:48 .

[Silfren]

Sharn01 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote... I don't oppose the idea of more mixed TheDas. I oppose the idea that it's the only right approach, and that everything else is stupif/bigoted/imoral /insensitive or what have you.

You come off sounding like you oppose it.  If you don't like to read about BioWare being criticized for doing what they do, it is simple enough to just avoid those threads.  What you end up sounding like is that you wish people would stop talking about it so that BioWare won't hear about it and won't be influenced to make changes.  If that isn't your intention, then perhaps toning down the rhetoric would help your actual point shine through.

That's because they DO oppose it, but it's safer to couch their rather vehement, angry, and repetitive opposition in rational-sounding concern-troll terms than to just admit to their privileged, prejudiced perspective as someone whose dominant perspective is used to being catered to and really, REALLY, doesn't want to see that catering come to an end.

Sorry, but all this angry rhetoric is NOT what a person would be writing if they were actually in favor of diversity.  A person doesn't spend so much time and energy attacking the idea with such vitriol and condescension unless they are actively opposed todiversity itself, not merely the reasons for it, as is being pleaded in the above quote.  They're just tacking on that bit about "it being done for the wrong reasons" to give their position a sympathetic veneer.

I hate to be defending Lotion, but you obviously dont know him that well. 

Sometimes he is right, and sometimes he is wrong, but it doesnt matter what the subject is, if he disagree's with you he will let you know it, and if you respond to his post, he will keep responding as well and will continue to do so until you give up, repeating the same arguments over and over again.  I am not bashing him for it, if thats what he likes to do, I say go for it, but you will never convince him your opinion is right if he disagrees with it, he wont even admit facts are true unless he can somehow twist their meaning to support his opinion, otherwise he will just ignore them or use counter arguments that only barely relate to the fact presented.


Just though I would add that for the record, I dont want them to just throw in more races for no reason myself, it needs to fit the lore, and adding more races in trade hubs is probably the easiest way to do it.

Obviously I don't?  

On the contrary, I've had a number of "discussions" with them, and I've watched others.  I'm quite familiar with the way they conduct conversations.

I'm not out to convince them of anything, but I'm not going to keep silent when I see them spouting what I consider to be hostile, ignorant statements.  Especially not on such a topic as this.  

There is a certain class of people who reacts with with anger and hostility to the topic of diversity in media, and Lotion Soronnar has presented themselves as being of that group of people.  You are mistaken if you think I will be lectured or cajoled or otherwise convinced into not countering their opposition to something that there is no good reason to be opposed to.  

Diversity is a good thing.  Attacking it as being too PC, of being done for the "wrong" reasons, and attacking people who want diversity in their media for trying to bring politics into "other people's" games...all these are nothing but bullsh!t attempts to vilify something that is not a bad thing, except insofar as certain people from the dominant, privileged class find it so very threatening that they will resort to any tactic available to undermine it, even those which are ludicrous and very, very dubious in their rationality.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...
Oh, but I am perfectly free to write what I think about your own words.  They DO reflect a bias, and I'm free to analyze your words to whatever extent I want.  You don't have to like it, but that's a separate issue.  As long as I'm not personally attacking you, I'm well within my rights to say whatever I like about the words you post in a public forum.  Ain't it awesome how that works?

Implying darker motives/motivations goes beyond simple discussion.
It's insulting and the basest form of debating.

For example, I could say that from your words I deduce that you MUST be a socially inept drunk with an inferiority complex that posts because it doesn't have a life of it's own, so it latches to other peoples causes without thinking.
Sounds plausible?
Of course, I typed that out off the top of my head, but you get the point (hopefully).

But such redicolous conjectures don't belong in ANY civilized discussion because tehy are basicly Ad Hominems.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...
If tolerance were univeral and racism were truly gone, I could understand not wanting to hear any more about it.  But the real world has plenty of intolerance and racism.  These things change by pointing out their existance and ways that they could be reduced.  In my book, tolerance really is superior to a "fistfull" of anything.

And in my book, staying true to the spirit is superior to staying true to the letter.

The problem wiht monster hunters is that often, once the number of monsters start dwindling down, they begin to see monsters everywhere.
Hence people shouting sexism/racism/wahtever-ism when there is none is becoming very grating.

Remember Redident Evil? One of the games was set in africa. 99,9% of character were black. And then some "smart" peopel start calling racism cause there were tons of black zombies..in africa. And that was racist. the fact that we spent all other games killing white zombies didn't seem to bother anyone.

To quote you:
 

I'm not out to convince them of anything, but I'm not going to keep
silent when I see them spouting what I consider to be hostile, ignorant
statements.  Especially not on such a topic as this.  

There is a
certain class of people who reacts with with anger and hostility to the
topic of diversity in media, and Lotion Soronnar has presented
themselves as being of that group of people.  You are mistaken if you
think I will be lectured or cajoled or otherwise convinced into not
countering their opposition to something that there is no good reason to
be opposed to. 

You are mistaken if you think that *I* will refrain from countering their (your?) drivel.


Long story hort - I'm not the one obsessed by race. Ever played
Diablo 2? Guess what my favorite class is? Paladin. Guess what color he
is? Black. Did it bother me at all? No.
But according to you, to better "accept" that character, and for the sake of diversity, I should have complained.
But I didn't.
You know why? Because race/color/religion isn't my one defining thought process/filter.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:23 .

[GodWood]

After 12 pages of repeating the same points the pro-retcon side still continues to inaccurately portray the others point of view and instead spout wild accusations.

I think we dismiss this as trolling or just incredible amounts of stupidity.

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And in my book, staying true to the spirit is superior to staying true to the letter.

What spirit?

To quote you:

That wasn't me.  Nor were eairlier posts claiming that the devs were racist.

Because race/color/religion isn't my one defining thought process/filter.

Then why care if other people would prefer to see more diversity in games?  Why care if people wish that if a game developer is going to invent a world purely out of imagination that it be imagined with more diversity in it?  It makes no sense to get so riled up just because other people care about a topic that you don't. 

There is still racism and sexism and all kinds of other -isms in the world.  Many of these have very bad effects on their targets.  If you aren't affected that's great.  But problems don't get solved by not caring and not acting.  Why oppose those who hope to nudge society into a little bit more tolerance by adding tiny bits of diversity and inclusiveness into the popular media?

[GodWood]

GavrielKay wrote...
Then why care if other people would prefer to see more diversity in games?

Because we wish to maintain a consistent setting in this game. The game that has already established that it's ethnicity is primarily caucasion towards the south. To change this in the name of 'diversity' would be a retcon. 

That's it.

I (and presumably others) would make the exact complaint if Bioware decided to cram more white people into Jade Empire in order to appease white people and make them feel more represented.

[GavrielKay]

GodWood wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...
Then why care if other people would prefer to see more diversity in games?

Because we wish to maintain a consistent setting in this game. The game that has already established that it's ethnicity is primarily caucasion towards the south. To change this in the name of 'diversity' would be a retcon. 

That's it.

I (and presumably others) would make the exact complaint if Bioware decided to cram more white people into Jade Empire in order to appease white people and make them feel more represented.

It isn't a retcon. 

As mentioned in the OP, the character creator has always allowed the player to create dark skinned PCs.  Making your character darker skinned never changes your origin story.  A dark skinned Hawke doesn't suddenly become the secret love child of Leandra and some swarthy foreigner.  The precendent is already in the game.  The lore would fully support Kirkwall having a variety of peoples due both to its nature as a shipping port and as a former slave traders' haven.

No vast rewrite of the lore would be required, "in the name of rampant PC-ness" in order to have made Kirkwall a little less monochromatic.

[TEWR]

Considering Kirkwall is known to be a trading hub where people from various nations of various skin tones come together, I don't really see why we don't see a lot of different skin tones and people with accents to reflect on that.

Chalk it up to being rushed really. That's where much of DAII's faults lie. Rushed development impeding the actual reflection and visualization of what the game -- and the lore surrounding the area -- was made out to be.

[GodWood]

GavrielKay wrote...
It isn't a retcon.

Having vast diversity in a location already established in being primarily one ethnicity would be a retcon. 

As mentioned in the OP, the character creator has always allowed the player to create dark skinned PCs.

So? This does not overwrite the already established racial demographics of the setting.

Non-whites are a small minority in Southern Thedas. If you made your PC darker skinned, (s)he's now part of that small minority. 

Making your character darker skinned never changes your origin story.  A dark skinned Hawke doesn't suddenly become the secret love child of Leandra and some swarthy foreigner.

That's because your family's skin tone changes with your Hawke. If Hawke's black, Leandra's black. 

The lore would fully support Kirkwall having a variety of peoples due both to its nature as a shipping port and as a former slave traders' haven.

It could have supported it, but it didn't.

So I guess it's canonical Kirkwall is not ethnically diverse, not all trading hubs are after all. However it could have also been a resource issue. We never saw female dwarves either.

Let it be known though, this thread isn't about making Kirkwall more ethnically diverse, it's about making each country more ethnically diverse. A lore breaker.

Modifié par GodWood, 25 juillet 2012 - 11:34 .

[LobselVith8]

GodWood wrote...

After 12 pages of repeating the same points the pro-recton side still continues to inaccurately portray the others point of view and instead spout wild accusations.

When there are people arguing that Dragon Age having a white majority is fine because it's a story for white people, it's not really a wild accusation, or anything of the kind. The fact that some other arguments have pointed to Jade Empire as though it absolves the imbalance in diversity across all platforms of entertainment does make me question of people truly understand what it's like to be bombarded with different forms of entertainment where they are marginalized.

There's nothing stupid about seeing diversity as a good thing.

GodWood wrote... That's it.

It wouldn't be a recton to include diversity in places we have never seen. It wouldn't have been a recton had the developers chosen to include diversity in Kirkwall. People are addressing the problem of there not being diversity when there was opportunity to do so. And your mention of Jade Empire blatantly ignored that the problem is that there are people who are marginalized in all forms of entertainment.

GodWood wrote...

It could have supported it, but it didn't.

And the entire point is that the developers chose not to, because they have made it known that they don't think diversity is a worthy goal for the franchise. 

[Silfren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And in my book, staying true to the spirit is superior to staying true to the letter.

The problem wiht monster hunters is that often, once the number of monsters start dwindling down, they begin to see monsters everywhere.
Hence people shouting sexism/racism/wahtever-ism when there is none is becoming very grating.

\\

Then it's a good thing that shouting racism where there is none is NOT what is happening here.

The fact that Bioware chose to completely disregard diversity in the creation of its games IS an example of racism.  It isn't the same DEGREE of racism as shouting derogatory terms and actively promoting racist legislative policies, but the fact remains that the mindset that chooses to ignore the concerns of non-whites, or that mindset which is so blinded by its own privilege...those mindsets exist specifically because of the racist underpinnings of society.  

The perspective that chooses to pretend that only white people matter, that only white people play games and care about the demographics those games project...it can be either consciously racist or subconsciously so.  One is considerably more benign than the other, but it is nevertheless a harmful mindset and a racist one.  It would be far better to admit and acknowledge this, and work toward correcting it, than to vehemently deny its existence.

White people would do themselves a service to accept that we live in a racist society such that certain attitudes get picked up despite a person's best efforts.  Pointing out that a behavior demonstrates a racist perspective is NOT an insult, it is an attempt to get somebody to examine their actions and consider that maybe, just maybe, they have some learning to do.  

I'll start:  I'm a white woman, and I'm racist not because I'm an idiot or a neanderthal, but because I live in a society in which racism is systemic.  I experience racism every single time I make an assumption about another person based on their skin color.  I'm not someone who wants to go back to Jim Crow laws, and I'm not someone who tosses around the N-word every time a person of color pisses me off.  But I am still a white person living in a society that privileges me over people of color, and even if I am not overtly, actively racist, I still benefit from a racist system because it considers me, my skin color, as the default and everyone else as the exception, the other.  I didn't create that system and I don't actively try to perpetuate it, but I benefit from it all the same.  The simple fact is, I was not aware of the racial disparity problems of Bioware until one of the people on my friend's list pointed it out to me.  I didn't see it for the very plain reason that, not being a person of color, I was not immediately affected by it.  But now that I've had it brought to my attention, the problem is nothing if not obvious.

Bioware has made good strides in making its games more representative than other games in the same genre.  But that does NOT mean it doesn't have a long way to go, or that the problems it still has should not be pointed out and discussed. 

[Zkyire]

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And in my book, staying true to the spirit is superior to staying true to the letter.

The problem wiht monster hunters is that often, once the number of monsters start dwindling down, they begin to see monsters everywhere.
Hence people shouting sexism/racism/wahtever-ism when there is none is becoming very grating.

Then it's a good thing that shouting racism where there is none is NOT what is happening here.

The fact that Bioware chose to completely disregard diversity in the creation of its games IS an example of racism.  It isn't the same DEGREE of racism as shouting derogatory terms and actively promoting racist legislative policies, but the fact remains that the mindset that chooses to ignore the concerns of non-whites, or that mindset which is so blinded by its own privilege...those mindsets exist specifically because of the racist underpinnings of society.  

The perspective that chooses to pretend that only white people matter, that only white people play games and care about the demographics those games project...it can be either consciously racist or subconsciously so.  One is considerably more benign than the other, but it is nevertheless a harmful mindset and a racist one.  It would be far better to admit and acknowledge this, and work toward correcting it, than to vehemently deny its existence.

White people would do themselves a service to accept that we live in a racist society such that certain attitudes get picked up despite a person's best efforts.  Pointing out that a behavior demonstrates a racist perspective is NOT an insult, it is an attempt to get somebody to examine their actions and consider that maybe, just maybe, they have some learning to do.  

I'll start:  I'm a white woman, and I'm racist not because I'm an idiot or a neanderthal, but because I live in a society in which racism is systemic.  I experience racism every single time I make an assumption about another person based on their skin color.  I'm not someone who wants to go back to Jim Crow laws, and I'm not someone who tosses around the N-word every time a person of color pisses me off.  But I am still a white person living in a society that privileges me over people of color, and even if I am not overtly, actively racist, I still benefit from a racist system because it considers me, my skin color, as the default and everyone else as the exception, the other.  I didn't create that system and I don't actively try to perpetuate it, but I benefit from it all the same.  The simple fact is, I was not aware of the racial disparity problems of Bioware until one of the people on my friend's list pointed it out to me.  I didn't see it for the very plain reason that, not being a person of color, I was not immediately affected by it.  But now that I've had it brought to my attention, the problem is nothing if not obvious.

Bioware has made good strides in making its games more representative than other games in the same genre.  But that does NOT mean it doesn't have a long way to go, or that the problems it still has should not be pointed out and discussed. 

Okay time to jump back into the thread.

Non white people do exist in Thedas.

It's just that Bioware STARTED Dragon Age with a white country (Ferelden) but with each passing game they are exploring more countries. Say what you will about Kirkwall, but it's right next door to Ferelden, not thousands of miles away. It's on the border. If Ferelden is predominantly white, then Kirkwall will be too.

You're basically saying that Bioware are racist. The only way that statement will hold true is if 1) Bioware never visit any non-white nation of Thedas in any Dragon Age game ever. Or 2) They do visit a non-white nation (Like Rivain) and the population is still predominantly white).

Now seeing as how you will not be able to tell the answer to that for several years (when Bioware does or does not do it); I'd hold off the cries of racism.

Also just for future reference, completely as an aside about that "neanderthal" remark linked to idocy.. all non Sub-Saharan Africans have 1% to 4% Neanderthal DNA in them. And Neanderthals were just as smart if not smarter than ****** Sapiens. So it's not really an insult because if you're white then you're part Neanderthal as it is.

Modifié par Zkyire, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:04 .

[brushyourteeth]

Silfren wrote...

Things that would allow diversity would damage the setting?  This is a bullsh!t reason for not including diversity.  A scare tactic and nothing more.  I notice that you didn't actually bother to elaborate on what those damages would be, even though that's enough of a bold statement that it behooves you to do so. 

I'm sick and bloody tired of this "making the world more diverse would be making a political statement," nonsense, too. 

If it would be making a political statement to be more diverse, then they are making a political statement by NOT being diverse.  It's a political statement EITHER WAY...trying to argue otherwise is patently absurd.  The only difference is that THIS political statement, referring to the lack of diversity, doesn't bother the dominant group (i.e. white people) because they (we, speaking as a white person myself) aren't affected by decisions that maintain and reflect the present status quo.  

It doesn't matter that DA is a game.  Games are a part of popular culture, and they create and perpetuate the status quo as much as the rest of popular media does.  It is not inconsequential that most forms of media, be they games, movies, music videos, or network t.v. shows, or books, represent the dominant culture, and Bioware games are no different.  White people who complain about minorities objecting to the constant whitewashing process do so for no other reason than they DO NOT see what the problem is.  Unfortunately, as is obvious in this forum, most would rather argue and condemn and insult rather than shut up and try to learn something from what the marginalized groups are trying to tell them.

I have to agree with the underlined. I'm not black, but I've always found it easy to see the beauty in black women. Want to know where I can trace this back to? Hours of reading the X-Men comics as a kid and generally being in awe of Storm. Pop culture diversity isn't just some kind of political statement, although it does change attitudes every day - it often does actually enrich a project and bring something special to the table. I'd say it most often isn't about "Oh, we need one of everything so the minorities will shut up."

To many of us this may not seem like a big deal. You can design your character, right? And the lore so far supports a limited amount of ethnic diversity. But being part of the "minority" is a very subjective thing. Anyone who's ever been the only person of their ethnic background in a room of people who look quite different from you knows what feeling like you *must* be an outsider is like. Is it a big deal? Nope. We're all just people. But for folks who have lived their entire life feeling that way, and then they rarely see their background reflected in a positive way in visual media --- yeah, we should all be able to understand wanting to come home and at least feel like it's normal to be skin color X in your DA fantasy world.

That said, I'm not comfortable with laying the blame on "white people." That's painting with a pretty broad brush, and I know plenty of white people who are genuinely non-prejudiced. It's counter-productive to fight prejudice with blame and reverse-prejudice.

Ferelden has a great reason for being populated by light-skinned humans. It's butt cold, and it loosely represents a rather young, relatively culturally isolated England. As we move north, however, if there continues to be little variation in skin tone, then that will tell us something. For The Next Thing ™ we're returning to countries that we already know are essentially populated by caucasians. What can I say? It's essentially Europe. We can't just ask Bioware to suddenly retcon the Antivans into looking African or Asian - we've already established they have lightly tanned skin. We have nowhere so far for significant numbers of Africans or Asians to come from. If we get to Rivain, however, and it's full of white people... that will be awfully disappointing. And telling. Maybe the lore can be expanded as we discover countries outside of Thedas. Maybe some of the other Free Marches city-states are populated by other human ethnic groups, immigrants from outside of Thedas or otherwise. Maybe the Fog Warriors can look African (and awesome). Just putting in my vote - I'd enjoy seeing that.

LobselVith8 wrote...
There's nothing stupid about seeing diversity as a good thing.

Very, very well said.

And the entire point is that the developers chose not to, because they have made it known that they don't think diversity is a worthy goal for the franchise.

I was honest-to-goodness shocked when I first read what some of the devs have said about this issue. It's not what I expected from them at all. 

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 26 juillet 2012 - 06:05 .

[SirGladiator]

I fully support the idea of being able to make your character any color you like, and not just traditional colors either, the full spectrum baby! And if we could have a wide range of colors for the other characters in the game, that'd be just fine too, so long as it made sense and all. Im not sure which colors would or wouldnt make sense for each given area, but so long as it fits the lore, go for it, I always enjoyed romancing the blue girl in Mass Effect, I wouldnt mind romancing one in DA also . Maybe even make her red or green or purple this time, whatever works.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And in my book, staying true to the spirit is superior to staying true to the letter.

The problem wiht monster hunters is that often, once the number of monsters start dwindling down, they begin to see monsters everywhere.
Hence people shouting sexism/racism/wahtever-ism when there is none is becoming very grating.

Then it's a good thing that shouting racism where there is none is NOT what is happening here.

It is.

Teh faux call for "diversity" IS in fact, and attack ON diversity. Since you cannot acecet anything that is diverse other than your predefined worldview.
You rage agaisnt BioWare not beign "diverse enough". And you'd to that to every game, book and movie, untill all of them look like a poster for the United Colors of Benetton. Utterly bland and the same.
Where the hell is diversity if you take away the artists freedoms to do anything other than what you percieve as "the only right thing"?

The fact that Bioware chose to completely disregard diversity in the creation of its games IS an example of racism.  It isn't the same DEGREE of racism as shouting derogatory terms and actively promoting racist legislative policies, but the fact remains that the mindset that chooses to ignore the concerns of non-whites, or that mindset which is so blinded by its own privilege...those mindsets exist specifically because of the racist underpinnings of society.

No, it isn't racism. I don't think you even know what the world means.
But aparently people fight today about who is more tolerant, who is more pro-gay/black/jew/whatever_is_popular. Jumping on the bandwangon and fighting for the "cause", eager to make apperances when tehy aren't neessary.

It's not racism.
It's just your stupidity.

White people would do themselves a service to accept that we live in a racist society such that certain attitudes get picked up despite a person's best efforts.  Pointing out that a behavior demonstrates a racist perspective is NOT an insult, it is an attempt to get somebody to examine their actions and consider that maybe, just maybe, they have some learning to do. 

and maybe, just maybe, you have some learning to do.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:28 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Joy Division wrote...

Or, they oppose being criticized for making a fantasy world which does not conform to your socio-political agenda.

Some of them seem to think that Dragon Age is a story for white people, and that white people should be allowed to have their own stories because other countries do as well.

Dragon age is a story. PERIOD.
The second you start to think in terms of color/religion or whatever, it's the second you limit yourself and have the story and setting itself shackled by other poeples agendas. It's not a political statement. It's not supposed to be. It shouldn't be.
It's just a story.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...

Because race/color/religion isn't my one defining thought process/filter.

Then why care if other people would prefer to see more diversity in games?  Why care if people wish that if a game developer is going to invent a world purely out of imagination that it be imagined with more diversity in it?  It makes no sense to get so riled up just because other people care about a topic that you don't.

I care if people want to FROCE such changes.
I care if people make grand claims about the righteusness of their views and how everything adn everyone must conform to them.
Why shouldn't I care about that?
Why do you care that I care?

We are long past any serious discussion, for the last few pages you constantly seem to try nothing more than cheap character assasination, by questioning my (and anyone opposing you) beliefs, motives and such.

You seee, there's the difference between you and Silfen and me.
I don't assign motivations to you. I don't pretend I know why you post (I assume misplaced extremist morals but that's not something I'd ever claim and I'm only mentioning it now to make a point). I don't villify you just to make myself seem more righteus. Case in point:

That's because they DO oppose it, but it's safer to couch their rather
vehement, angry, and repetitive opposition in rational-sounding
concern-troll terms than to just admit to their privileged, prejudiced
perspective as someone whose dominant perspective is used to being
catered to and really, REALLY, doesn't want to see that catering come to
an end.

Sorry, but all this angry rhetoric is NOT what a person
would be writing if they were actually in favor of diversity.  A person
doesn't spend so much time and energy attacking the idea with such
vitriol and condescension unless they are actively opposed todiversity
itself, not merely the reasons for it, as is being pleaded in the above
quote.  They're just tacking on that bit about "it being done for the
wrong reasons" to give their position a sympathetic veneer.

There is still racism and sexism and all kinds of other -isms in the world.  Many of these have very bad effects on their targets.  If you aren't affected that's great.  But problems don't get solved by not caring and not acting.  Why oppose those who hope to nudge society into a little bit more tolerance by adding tiny bits of diversity and inclusiveness into the popular media?

Because some don't want to nudge and they go way beyond what is apropritate in their quest for what they percieve as tolerance.

[Joy Divison]

GavrielKay wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
Or, they oppose being criticized for making a fantasy world which does not conform to your socio-political agenda.

But why oppose pointing out that DA is full of white people because BioWare decided to make it so?  I criticize DA for reusing maps, enemies falling from the sky and generally having cartoonish graphics and combat.  I don't see a lot of people vehemently opposing any of those critiques saying why should they do it differently?  When it comes to diversity, there are posters saying that it doesn't fit in the world BioWare created, but I don't recall anyone saying that obviously BioWare created a region where all the caves look the same, so quit complaining.

Diversity or lack thereof is a decision.  If folks wish that more effort had been put into creating a fantasy world that had more diversity, why get upset?  I wish they'd put in fewer flying enemies.  No one says, stop whining, BioWare created a world where thugs can drop off rooftops without getting hurt, just accept it.

Because reusing maps, enemies falling from the sky, and cartoonish graphics are largely the consequence of indequate resources, limited production time, and poor gameplay mechanics.  These fundamentally effect the gameplay experience, detract from how the game was meant to be played, or were the unintenional consequence of cutting corners to meet a deadline date.  Having a world full of white people, or green people for that matter, does not make the mechanical gameplay any worse like many of the faults DA2 can and should be criticized for.

By criticizing BioWare's decision to base Thedas largely on Medieval Europe which was overwhleming comprised of white people, you are no longer criticizing elements of poor gameplay mechanics (which as a developer they have a responsibility to deliver on this end) or half-finished shoody asthetics (again, something they have a responsibility to deliver since I'm paying $60) and instead attacking the artistic vision of a development team simply because it does not conform with your socio-political agenda.  In short, as a paying customer, you have the right to demand a functioning game and, from a AAA title, a game with graphical standards which meet contemporary standards.  Your $60 does not entitle you a soapbox for disseminating your socio-political agenda

Modifié par Joy Divison, 26 juillet 2012 - 01:56 .

[Joy Divison]

To make something clear, I am not saying you are wrong for preferring a game with a diversified population when it comes to ethnicity.

I am saying it's not your place as a customer to DEMAND that artists and entertainers creative products which conform to your socio-political agenda. You don't like DRagon Age is full of white people because it subliminally perpetuates unwanted racial messages? Don't buy the game and instead create your own which has equal numbers of ethnicities.

Oh, and when you do make your game, you can be sure I will count all the NPCs and if I do not see what I feel are the proper number of people who are descended from New Guinea -- and you better be careful here, New Guinea has hundreds of different ethnic groupings -- you better believe I will be criticizing you for your design decisions when it comes to ethncity and race.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 26 juillet 2012 - 01:54 .

[Joy Divison]

Silfren wrote...

I'll start:  I'm a white woman, and I'm racist not because I'm an idiot or a neanderthal, but because I live in a society in which racism is systemic.  I experience racism every single time I make an assumption about another person based on their skin color.  I'm not someone who wants to go back to Jim Crow laws, and I'm not someone who tosses around the N-word every time a person of color pisses me off.  But I am still a white person living in a society that privileges me over people of color, and even if I am not overtly, actively racist, I still benefit from a racist system because it considers me, my skin color, as the default and everyone else as the exception, the other.  I didn't create that system and I don't actively try to perpetuate it, but I benefit from it all the same.  The simple fact is, I was not aware of the racial disparity problems of Bioware until one of the people on my friend's list pointed it out to me.  I didn't see it for the very plain reason that, not being a person of color, I was not immediately affected by it.  But now that I've had it brought to my attention, the problem is nothing if not obvious.

Stop making assumptions on skin color and then you won't be a racist.  Doing so when it comes to video games might be a good first step.

[Xilizhra]

By criticizing BioWare's decision to base Thedas largely on Medieval Europe which was overwhleming comprised of white people, you are no longer criticizing elements of poor gameplay mechanics (which as a developer they have a responsibility to deliver on this end) or half-finished shoody asthetics (again, something they have a responsibility to deliver since I'm paying $60) and instead attacking the artistic vision of a development team simply because it does not conform with your socio-political agenda. In short, as a paying customer, you have the right to demand a functioning game and, from a AAA title, a game with graphical standards which meet contemporary standards. Your $60 does not entitle you a soapbox for disseminating your socio-political agenda

I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that we had the right to say anything we chose so long as it didn't break other laws. And customer feedback is customer feedback, regardless of whether or not you care about the issues the feedback is talking about. I couldn't care less about a lot of the complaints people have about DA2, but I hardly go around telling others they're not entitled to those.

[GavrielKay]

Joy Divison wrote...
Your $60 does not entitle you a soapbox for disseminating your socio-political agenda

Well, that's where you're wrong.  That $60 entitles me to a user login on this forum, which invites moderated discussion on whatever game related topics we please.  I don't even care what your motives are on this issue, attempts to stifle discussion about a topic that is important to certain people is ridiculous.

Those who can't do their part to keep it civil are the ones who aren't entitled to have their say.