329 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

Because reusing maps, enemies falling from the sky, and cartoonish graphics are largely the consequence of indequate resources, limited production time, and poor gameplay mechanics.  These fundamentally effect the gameplay experience, detract from how the game was meant to be played, or were the unintenional consequence of cutting corners to meet a deadline date.  Having a world full of white people, or green people for that matter, does not make the mechanical gameplay any worse like many of the faults DA2 can and should be criticized for.

Kirkwall is supposed to be a trading hub and a commercial port along the Waking Sea, and an entry into the Free Marches, but it has no diversity. Dragon Age stands out as one of the few games where a person can have a homosexual relationship through their PC; for those of us who would like to see more diversity in the genre (because it's lacking all over), it stands out when we see no effort to bring diversity to a hub of trade and commerce place like Kirkwall, and have the developers flat-out state that they don't think it's an effort worth pursuing for the franchise.

Joy Divison wrote...

By criticizing BioWare's decision to base Thedas largely on Medieval Europe which was overwhleming comprised of white people, you are no longer criticizing elements of poor gameplay mechanics (which as a developer they have a responsibility to deliver on this end) or half-finished shoody asthetics (again, something they have a responsibility to deliver since I'm paying $60) and instead attacking the artistic vision of a development team simply because it does not conform with your socio-political agenda.  In short, as a paying customer, you have the right to demand a functioning game and, from a AAA title, a game with graphical standards which meet contemporary standards.  Your $60 does not entitle you a soapbox for disseminating your socio-political agenda

Thedas has women with equal rights to men, it has open homosexuality, it has elements that have absolutely nothing to do with Medieval Europe. You can't claim that Thedas is a carbon copy of Medieval Europe when the developers have willingly changed so many elements to make the setting palpable for a modern audience.

And as a paying customer, I have the right to share my opinion of the product I purchased. You don't have the right to tell me, or anyone else, what we can or can't discuss about a product we have paid for.

[Goneaviking]

Joy Divison wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'll start:  I'm a white woman, and I'm racist not because I'm an idiot or a neanderthal, but because I live in a society in which racism is systemic.  I experience racism every single time I make an assumption about another person based on their skin color.  I'm not someone who wants to go back to Jim Crow laws, and I'm not someone who tosses around the N-word every time a person of color pisses me off.  But I am still a white person living in a society that privileges me over people of color, and even if I am not overtly, actively racist, I still benefit from a racist system because it considers me, my skin color, as the default and everyone else as the exception, the other.  I didn't create that system and I don't actively try to perpetuate it, but I benefit from it all the same.  The simple fact is, I was not aware of the racial disparity problems of Bioware until one of the people on my friend's list pointed it out to me.  I didn't see it for the very plain reason that, not being a person of color, I was not immediately affected by it.  But now that I've had it brought to my attention, the problem is nothing if not obvious.

Stop making assumptions on skin color and then you won't be a racist.  Doing so when it comes to video games might be a good first step.

Would that it were so easy.

As to the actual topic of conversation I could go either way on the subject. In a fantasy world that has seen the evolution of humans, dwarves and elves on the same continent I don't see any reason to believe the game's map needs to be expanded to justify the inclusion of larger numbers of non-white characters. Presumably if conditions were varied enough to see the rise of three very different races in more-or-less the same place then there's no particular reason that multiple ethnicities couldn't have arisen whose physical differences happen to be more  more cosmetic than the differences marking out the game's various races.

That said, I also don't see a particular need to expand the colour scheme of NPCs greatly if the developers actually have based the game on medieval Europe (which was actually rather more racially and culturally diverse than most people seem to realize.) It doesn't seem to represent a significant problem so far as I can tell, certainly whatever problems exist here are less offensive than the persistant whitewashing of coloured characters being transferred between various mediums of entertainment.

For my part I generally prefer fantasy cultures that are further divorced from real historical examples. They seem to offer greater room for imaginings than "Ferelden as England, Orlais as France, Antiva as Spain" and seem less inclined to invite unnecessary and potentially bigoted assumptions about organisations, cultures and belief structures which can seriously impact on the way people interpret the game.

[Goneaviking]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

By criticizing BioWare's decision to base Thedas largely on Medieval Europe which was overwhleming comprised of white people, you are no longer criticizing elements of poor gameplay mechanics (which as a developer they have a responsibility to deliver on this end) or half-finished shoody asthetics (again, something they have a responsibility to deliver since I'm paying $60) and instead attacking the artistic vision of a development team simply because it does not conform with your socio-political agenda.  In short, as a paying customer, you have the right to demand a functioning game and, from a AAA title, a game with graphical standards which meet contemporary standards.  Your $60 does not entitle you a soapbox for disseminating your socio-political agenda

Thedas has women with equal rights to men, it has open homosexuality, it has elements that have absolutely nothing to do with Medieval Europe. You can't claim that Thedas is a carbon copy of Medieval Europe when the developers have willingly changed so many elements to make the setting palpable for a modern audience.

And as a paying customer, I have the right to share my opinion of the product I purchased. You don't have the right to tell me, or anyone else, what we can or can't discuss about a product we have paid for.

If the artistic vision of the games developers doesn't match your expectations as a player that doesn't make it a failing for either the game or the staff who created it.

No one is claiming Thedas is a carbon copy of Medieval Europe, only that it was based upon it. Making a few alterations to make the game more palatable for a wider range of players and to enhance opportunities for replayability do not oblige creators open every avenue requested/demanded by prospective players particuliarly if they believe it will make for more work without offering larger rewards.

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

To make something clear, I am not saying you are wrong for preferring a game with a diversified population when it comes to ethnicity.

I am saying it's not your place as a customer to DEMAND that artists and entertainers creative products which conform to your socio-political agenda. You don't like DRagon Age is full of white people because it subliminally perpetuates unwanted racial messages? Don't buy the game and instead create your own which has equal numbers of ethnicities.

Oh, and when you do make your game, you can be sure I will count all the NPCs and if I do not see what I feel are the proper number of people who are descended from New Guinea -- and you better be careful here, New Guinea has hundreds of different ethnic groupings -- you better believe I will be criticizing you for your design decisions when it comes to ethncity and race.

You seem to have a great deal of disdain for people having the audacity to have an issue with the lack of diversity in Dragon Age. People are sharing their opinion on the matter. People feel strongly about this. I don't see the point in trying to vilify any of them.

I see people pointing out the lack of diversity in the narrative, particularly in areas where diversity could have easily transpired. People like Silfren have addressed that they think it would be a good idea to see more inclusion for people who are vastly under-represented in all forms of entertainment, including fantasy. I would love to see people who actually looked like me in the characters who populate the narrative, particularly when there isn't anything preventing the developers from including more diversity. I don't see the problem with diversity, nor do I see why you are acting so hostile towards people who are arguing for inclusion.

[Joy Divison]

GavrielKay wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
Your $60 does not entitle you a soapbox for disseminating your socio-political agenda

Well, that's where you're wrong.  That $60 entitles me to a user login on this forum, which invites moderated discussion on whatever game related topics we please.  I don't even care what your motives are on this issue, attempts to stifle discussion about a topic that is important to certain people is ridiculous.

Those who can't do their part to keep it civil are the ones who aren't entitled to have their say.

You misunderstand.  I did not say or mean you are not entitled to prefer whatever ethnic demographics you like to see in video games.  I also did not say you did were not entitled to come onto this forum and express your opinions in a manner which did not violate forum rules.

You claimed their was no difference between complaining about poor enemy spawn mechanics and complaining about the ethnic make-up of the NPCs.  There is a difference.  The former is a poor gameplay mechanic which is not to be expected in a AAA title.  When I spend the $60 for the game, I have the reasonable expectation that such would not be included.

The ethnic makeup does not effect the gameplay and is the artistic decision of the developers.  You knew Kirkwall was streaming with white people and yet bought the game anyway.  You are demanding Bioware shape Thedas -- their project, not yours -- to conform to your socio-political agenda.  That has nothing to do with gameplay and nothing to do with your $60.  You are just complaining that the artistic creation you don't have to buy does not meet your political standards.  You don't have to like it or buy it.  You might not have a problem with telling people how they should create art, but I bet if the shoe were on the other foot you'd recognize the difference.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 26 juillet 2012 - 06:47 .

[Joy Divison]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

To make something clear, I am not saying you are wrong for preferring a game with a diversified population when it comes to ethnicity.

I am saying it's not your place as a customer to DEMAND that artists and entertainers creative products which conform to your socio-political agenda. You don't like DRagon Age is full of white people because it subliminally perpetuates unwanted racial messages? Don't buy the game and instead create your own which has equal numbers of ethnicities.

Oh, and when you do make your game, you can be sure I will count all the NPCs and if I do not see what I feel are the proper number of people who are descended from New Guinea -- and you better be careful here, New Guinea has hundreds of different ethnic groupings -- you better believe I will be criticizing you for your design decisions when it comes to ethncity and race.

You seem to have a great deal of disdain for people having the audacity to have an issue with the lack of diversity in Dragon Age. People are sharing their opinion on the matter. People feel strongly about this. I don't see the point in trying to vilify any of them.

I see people pointing out the lack of diversity in the narrative, particularly in areas where diversity could have easily transpired. People like Silfren have addressed that they think it would be a good idea to see more inclusion for people who are vastly under-represented in all forms of entertainment, including fantasy. I would love to see people who actually looked like me in the characters who populate the narrative, particularly when there isn't anything preventing the developers from including more diversity. I don't see the problem with diversity, nor do I see why you are acting so hostile towards people who are arguing for inclusion.

I suspect your reading on my motivation and feelings are about as accurate if I were to say that you seem to have a great disdain for Bioware for having the audacity not to include more people of color.

[The Hierophant]

Seriously guys, you should not use DA2 as an example for a lack of diversity due to it being a rushed game.(copy pasted maps, npcs, etc.) The official map is uncompleted, and we have yet to see the continent the Kossith hail from, or what's south of the Kocari wilds.
On the matter of inclusion, it could easily conflict with Bio's vision of a Medieval Europe like society for the DA series-E.g."I'm Puerto Rican, so i want to see my people rendered in game just so i can feel represented even though it thematically doesn't fit with the current setting." Instead the devs could probably work on the Chasind, Neverran, Rivaini, Antivan, character models so that they are easily distiguishable in looks, and are not palette swaps of each other.(e.g. Broad lips, noses, wiry hair, the works.)
As a customer it's okay to voice your issues with gameplay, visuals, writing quality, conflicting lore, or perceived drop in quality, but to demand (like it's a god given right)  the devs to alter a part of their story, to conform to said person's irl expectations despite it being the dev's fantasy story reeks of entitlement. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:00 .

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'll start:  I'm a white woman, and I'm racist not because I'm an idiot or a neanderthal, but because I live in a society in which racism is systemic.  I experience racism every single time I make an assumption about another person based on their skin color.  I'm not someone who wants to go back to Jim Crow laws, and I'm not someone who tosses around the N-word every time a person of color pisses me off.  But I am still a white person living in a society that privileges me over people of color, and even if I am not overtly, actively racist, I still benefit from a racist system because it considers me, my skin color, as the default and everyone else as the exception, the other.  I didn't create that system and I don't actively try to perpetuate it, but I benefit from it all the same.  The simple fact is, I was not aware of the racial disparity problems of Bioware until one of the people on my friend's list pointed it out to me.  I didn't see it for the very plain reason that, not being a person of color, I was not immediately affected by it.  But now that I've had it brought to my attention, the problem is nothing if not obvious.

Stop making assumptions on skin color and then you won't be a racist.  Doing so when it comes to video games might be a good first step.

Silfren was having a frank and honest commentary on racism, and how it shapes and effects her on a daily basis because we live in an imperfect world where racism is a daily reality for everyone, and you pretty much ignored the entirety of her comments. Making a snide comment isn't going to dismiss the concerns that people have over the lack of diversity in Dragon Age.

[Zkyire]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'll start:  I'm a white woman, and I'm racist not because I'm an idiot or a neanderthal, but because I live in a society in which racism is systemic.  I experience racism every single time I make an assumption about another person based on their skin color.  I'm not someone who wants to go back to Jim Crow laws, and I'm not someone who tosses around the N-word every time a person of color pisses me off.  But I am still a white person living in a society that privileges me over people of color, and even if I am not overtly, actively racist, I still benefit from a racist system because it considers me, my skin color, as the default and everyone else as the exception, the other.  I didn't create that system and I don't actively try to perpetuate it, but I benefit from it all the same.  The simple fact is, I was not aware of the racial disparity problems of Bioware until one of the people on my friend's list pointed it out to me.  I didn't see it for the very plain reason that, not being a person of color, I was not immediately affected by it.  But now that I've had it brought to my attention, the problem is nothing if not obvious.

Stop making assumptions on skin color and then you won't be a racist.  Doing so when it comes to video games might be a good first step.

Silfren was having a frank and honest commentary on racism, and how it shapes and effects her on a daily basis because we live in an imperfect world where racism is a daily reality for everyone, and you pretty much ignored the entirety of her comments. Making a snide comment isn't going to dismiss the concerns that people have over the lack of diversity in Dragon Age.

No Silfren is insinuating that any white person, by virtue of being white is "privileged" and "prejudiced".

That's racist.

Modifié par Zkyire, 26 juillet 2012 - 06:57 .

[LobselVith8]

Joy Division wrote...

The ethnic makeup does not effect the gameplay and is the artistic decision of the developers.  You knew Kirkwall was streaming with white people and yet bought the game anyway.

GavrielKay knew? Wouldn't she only know such a fact after purchasing the game and playing it?

Joy Division wrote...

You are demanding Bioware shape Thedas -- their project, not yours -- to conform to your socio-political agenda.  That has nothing to do with gameplay and nothing to do with your $60.  You are just complaining that the artistic creation you don't have to buy does not meet your political standards.  You don't have to like it or buy it.  You might not have a problem with telling people how they should create art, but I bet if the shoe were on the other foot you'd recognize the difference.

I don't see what's political about pointing out the lack of diversity in the narrative of Dragon Age, particularly in an area where diversity would have made sense (i.e. Kirkwall). People are also welcome to address their opinions on the matter in a forum intended for players to share their views on Dragon Age.

Joy Divison wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to have a great deal of disdain for people having the audacity to have an issue with the lack of diversity in Dragon Age. People are sharing their opinion on the matter. People feel strongly about this. I don't see the point in trying to vilify any of them.

I see people pointing out the lack of diversity in the narrative, particularly in areas where diversity could have easily transpired. People like Silfren have addressed that they think it would be a good idea to see more inclusion for people who are vastly under-represented in all forms of entertainment, including fantasy. I would love to see people who actually looked like me in the characters who populate the narrative, particularly when there isn't anything preventing the developers from including more diversity. I don't see the problem with diversity, nor do I see why you are acting so hostile towards people who are arguing for inclusion.

I suspect your reading on my motivation and feelings are about as accurate if I were to say that you seem to have a great disdain for Bioware for having the audacity not to include more people of color.

You suspect? Shouldn't you be aware of your own motivation and feelings?

[LiquidGrape]

Zkyire wrote...

No Silfren is insinuating that any white person, by virtue of being white is "privileged" and "prejudiced".

That's racist.

Yes, no and no.

Yes, white privilege is a thing.
No, white people aren't inherently prejudiced, and Silfren never made any such claim. Merely that systematic racism allows white people (or even light-skinned people of colour) a social license to retain certain prejudices, and benefit from the perception of white as the normative.
No, it isn't racist to acknowledge that white privilege exists.

As for the matter of ethnicity in Dragon Age, the defense of BioWare's expressed vision of Thedas kinda falters when their analogue is quite so flawed, particularly since its relation to Medieval Europe has been purported as an explanation as to why the populace of the series is so predominantly white.

All you have to do is look up the Moors in order to realise that Medieval Europe bore little resemblance to the whitewashed affair our contemporary popular culture has managed to render it. And they were far from the only peoples of colour prevalent in that particular time and place.
Romani, Ottoman Turks, a variety of North African peoples, not to mention the Mongolian tribes which were absorbed into the societies and peoples they assimilated. The list goes on, and then I haven't even touched upon the slave trade which, if not as widespread as it had been in years past, was still enforced.

Dragon Age is by no means the only perpetrator of this kind of erasure, nor is it nearly the worst. It gave us Isabela, after all, who I maintain is among the best characters I have encountered in any form of media. But considering just how deliberate BioWare usually is in their world building, the apparent failure to acknowledge the ethnical diversity of their supposed model is something of a disappointment.

And therefore, a perfectly legitimate subject for criticism.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:26 .

[Silfren]

Zkyire wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'll start:  I'm a white woman, and I'm racist not because I'm an idiot or a neanderthal, but because I live in a society in which racism is systemic.  I experience racism every single time I make an assumption about another person based on their skin color.  I'm not someone who wants to go back to Jim Crow laws, and I'm not someone who tosses around the N-word every time a person of color pisses me off.  But I am still a white person living in a society that privileges me over people of color, and even if I am not overtly, actively racist, I still benefit from a racist system because it considers me, my skin color, as the default and everyone else as the exception, the other.  I didn't create that system and I don't actively try to perpetuate it, but I benefit from it all the same.  The simple fact is, I was not aware of the racial disparity problems of Bioware until one of the people on my friend's list pointed it out to me.  I didn't see it for the very plain reason that, not being a person of color, I was not immediately affected by it.  But now that I've had it brought to my attention, the problem is nothing if not obvious.

Stop making assumptions on skin color and then you won't be a racist.  Doing so when it comes to video games might be a good first step.

Silfren was having a frank and honest commentary on racism, and how it shapes and effects her on a daily basis because we live in an imperfect world where racism is a daily reality for everyone, and you pretty much ignored the entirety of her comments. Making a snide comment isn't going to dismiss the concerns that people have over the lack of diversity in Dragon Age.

No Silfren is insinuating that any white person, by virtue of being white is "privileged" and "prejudiced".

That's racist.

I'm not insinuating anything at all.  I am stating quite bluntly and openly that white people experience a great deal of privilege by virtue of being white.  I did NOT say anything about white people being naturally prejudiced, although quite honestly many white people are.  Though, as was said by someone else who actually paid attention to what I wrote, that prejudice is not necessarily inherent.  It is a product of being consumers of the systemic racism that pervades our society, that being the United States, because that is the focus of my experience and, I strongly suspect, where the majority of forumites on the BSN are located.  Ours IS a racist society, and white people DO benefit from this society's racist underpinnings.  

However, outright prejudice was not the salient point.  Privilege was.  There isn't a white person alive anywhere in this nation who has not experienced the benefit of racial privilege at at least one point in their lives.  It is inevitable.  Rather than deny this reality, I accept it and do what I can to be aware of it so that I can counter it.  

This is not racist, not in the least, tiniest little bit.  Only your need to deny the existence of such pervasive, invisible privilege demands that you label it as such. 

Modifié par Silfren, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:32 .

[The Hierophant]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

No Silfren is insinuating that any white person, by virtue of being white is "privileged" and "prejudiced".

That's racist.

As for the matter of ethnicity in Dragon Age, the defense of BioWare's expressed vision of Thedas kinda falters when their analogue is quite so flawed, particularly since its relation to Medieval Europe has been purported as an explanation as to why the populace of the series is so predominantly white.

Did the writers really try to correlate Thedas' lack of diverse human races with irl European history? I thought it was because of LoTR's influence like a homage, If this is the case like you said than their excuse is flimsy. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:40 .

[LiquidGrape]

The Hierophant wrote...

Did the writers really try to correlate Thedas' lack of diverse human races with irl European history? I thought it was because of LoTR's influence like a homage, If this is the case like you said than their excuse is flimsy. 

I seem to recall Gaider making comments to that effect, but naturally I could be misremembering. I'll attempt to find some kind of source.
Regardless, I do not mean to suggest that any of the people at BioWare are actually racist. Simply that Thedas' function as an analogue to medieval Europe is inherently flawed, considering the lack of diversity.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:58 .

[The Hierophant]

LiquidGrape wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Did the writers really try to correlate Thedas' lack of diverse human races with irl European history? I thought it was because of LoTR's influence like a homage, If this is the case like you said than their excuse is flimsy. 

I seem to recall Gaider making comments to that effect, but naturally I could be misremembering. I'll attempt to find some kind of source.
Regardless, I do not mean to suggest that any of the people at BioWare are actually racist. Simply that Thedas' function as an analogue to medieval Europe is inherently flawed, considering the lack of diversity.

True.

[Silfren]

LiquidGrape wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Did the writers really try to correlate Thedas' lack of diverse human races with irl European history? I thought it was because of LoTR's influence like a homage, If this is the case like you said than their excuse is flimsy. 

I seem to recall Gaider making comments to that effect, but naturally I could be misremembering. I'll attempt to find some kind of source.
Regardless, I do not mean to suggest that any of the people at BioWare are actually racist. Simply that Thedas' function as an analogue to medieval Europe is inherently flawed, considering the lack of diversity.

Not to mention a lot of people defending Bioware's action as being totally legitimate because it totally reflects the Real Middle Ages.  Way too many people seem to seriously believe that Europe during the Middle Ages was all white, all the time, and that's nowhere near the reality.  I'd like to see this myth die the horrible, slow, fiery death it deserves.

Modifié par Silfren, 26 juillet 2012 - 08:10 .

[GavrielKay]

Joy Divison wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...
Your $60 does not entitle you a soapbox for disseminating your socio-political agenda

Well, that's where you're wrong.  That $60 entitles me to a user login on this forum, which invites moderated discussion on whatever game related topics we please.  I don't even care what your motives are on this issue, attempts to stifle discussion about a topic that is important to certain people is ridiculous.

Those who can't do their part to keep it civil are the ones who aren't entitled to have their say.

You misunderstand.  I did not say or mean you are not entitled to prefer whatever ethnic demographics you like to see in video games.  I also did not say you did were not entitled to come onto this forum and express your opinions in a manner which did not violate forum rules.

You said my $60 did not entitle me to a soapbox...  which is both saying I shouldn't talk about something game related that matters to me and others, but also that somehow it can't be a plain old discussion but must be a "soapbox" and therefore somehow bad.

You might not have a problem with telling people how they should create art, but I bet if the shoe were on the other foot you'd recognize the difference.

I can critique art on a forum for that art/artist all day long.  It is no different from saying I like a book for X reasons or hate a painting for Y reasons.  Comments about the world that the devs created for us to play in are just as valid.

Making calm, polite requests regarding future versions, which is all the OP did, is well within the rules and purpose of a gaming forum.  If you think a change would be bad, then by all means put forth your arguments against that change.  Challenging and belittling someone's reasons for wanting the change in the first place is not persuasive.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 26 juillet 2012 - 08:26 .

[LobselVith8]

LiquidGrape wrote...

I seem to recall Gaider making comments to that effect, but naturally I could be misremembering. I'll attempt to find some kind of source.

David Gaider has used the term "medieval Europe" to describe the setting quite a few times. In an interview with Horror Bound Magazine, he said, "We also wanted to pattern the land loosely on the history of medieval Europe. So I used real historical events and worked them into the history, making a fictionalized version of our own world."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 26 juillet 2012 - 08:17 .

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

I seem to recall Gaider making comments to that effect, but naturally I could be misremembering. I'll attempt to find some kind of source.

David Gaider has used the term "medieval Europe" to describe the setting quite a few times. In an interview with Horror Bound Magazine, he said, "We also wanted to pattern the land loosely on the history of medieval Europe. So I used real historical events and worked them into the history, making a fictionalized version of our own world."

The only way i can see this statement as plausible is if the Qunari are a b@st@rd combination of the Turks, Arabs, North Africans, Mongolians, and East Asians.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 juillet 2012 - 08:28 .

[GavrielKay]

The Hierophant wrote...
The only way i can see this statement as plausible is if the Qunari are a b@st@rd combination of the Turks, Arabs, North Africans, Mongolians, and East Asians.

...  and antelope?

I have no issues with claiming that medieval Europe was a loose inspiration for Thedas.  But with magic, dragons and demons, they pretty much have to acknowledge that it's a loose basis and they certainly could have, had they wanted to, made it more diverse as well as more fantastical.

[Joy Divison]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren was having a frank and honest commentary on racism, and how it shapes and effects her on a daily basis because we live in an imperfect world where racism is a daily reality for everyone, and you pretty much ignored the entirety of her comments. Making a snide comment isn't going to dismiss the concerns that people have over the lack of diversity in Dragon Age.

Was it honest and frank because you agreed with her premises?  It sounded very presumptious to me.  She flat out accused Bioware of racism.  Flatly told everyone the company only cares about white people and white people's concerns.  Then told white people that they should think a certain way.  That's honest & frank?

How else should I have responded when she admitted she still makes assumptions based on color?  And to her admission that "she doesn't want to go back to Jim Crow Laws" (how progressive!)?  Within that commentary is the assumption that I, too, as a white person also make assumptions based on skin because whether or not I realize it I live in a privileged society which benefits me.  OK I'll be a bit more serious. Don't make assumptions on people based on their skin color.  It's not cool.  Don't flatly call white people racists because they don't do something which matches your socio-political world view and then tell them how they should think.  That's not really cool either.

[Joy Divison]

LobselVith8 wrote...

[I don't see what's political about pointing out the lack of diversity in the narrative of Dragon Age, particularly in an area where diversity would have made sense (i.e. Kirkwall). People are also welcome to address their opinions on the matter in a forum intended for players to share their views on Dragon Age.

You DONT see what's political about race?!?  Sorry, we can't have a discussion then.

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to have a great deal of disdain for people having the audacity to have an issue with the lack of diversity in Dragon Age. People are sharing their opinion on the matter. People feel strongly about this. I don't see the point in trying to vilify any of them.

I see people pointing out the lack of diversity in the narrative, particularly in areas where diversity could have easily transpired. People like Silfren have addressed that they think it would be a good idea to see more inclusion for people who are vastly under-represented in all forms of entertainment, including fantasy. I would love to see people who actually looked like me in the characters who populate the narrative, particularly when there isn't anything preventing the developers from including more diversity. I don't see the problem with diversity, nor do I see why you are acting so hostile towards people who are arguing for inclusion.

You suspect? Shouldn't you be aware of your own motivation and feelings?

No, I am aware of them.  I am saying you're wrong in reading them.  I don't think it is fair to call Bioware racist because one of their entertainment products does not have the ethnic diversity in which people feel is proper.  Should I show disdain for Francisco Goya and his Third of May painting because all of the subjects in it were white and olived-skin Mediterrean complexion?

Modifié par Joy Divison, 27 juillet 2012 - 02:24 .

[Xilizhra]

How else should I have responded when she admitted she still makes assumptions based on color? And to her admission that "she doesn't want to go back to Jim Crow Laws" (how progressive!)? Within that commentary is the assumption that I, too, as a white person also make assumptions based on skin because whether or not I realize it I live in a privileged society which benefits me. OK I'll be a bit more serious. Don't make assumptions on people based on their skin color. It's not cool. Don't flatly call white people racists because they don't do something which matches your socio-political world view and then tell them how they should think. That's not really cool either.

If "racism" is a problematic term for you, "privileged" might be more useful? It's not a matter of you actively disliking other races, so much as seeing as balanced things that favor white people because you more easily see it as normal. It happens with pretty much every group that happens to hold power.

No, I am aware of them. I am saying you're wrong in reading them. I don't think it is fair to call Bioware racist because one of their entertainment products does not have the ethnic diversity in which people feel is proper. Should I show disdain for Francisco Goya and his Third of May painting because all of the subjects in it were white and olived-skin Mediterrean complexion?

It certainly isn't fair to call Bioware especially racist, or more racist than is the norm for our society. However, they aren't at the forefront of antiracism either.

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Silfren was having a frank and honest commentary on racism, and how it shapes and effects her on a daily basis because we live in an imperfect world where racism is a daily reality for everyone, and you pretty much ignored the entirety of her comments. Making a snide comment isn't going to dismiss the concerns that people have over the lack of diversity in Dragon Age.

Was it honest and frank because you agreed with her premises?  It sounded very presumptious to me.  She flat out accused Bioware of racism.  Flatly told everyone the company only cares about white people and white people's concerns.  Then told white people that they should think a certain way.  That's honest & frank?

I'm not certain how I can agree with her addressing her point of view as a white woman living in the United States, because I'm neither white nor a woman. It's a different perspective than I have as a Latino man, and it's a point of view that I can only read about. As for being presumptious, she was being honest with her feelings, and she isn't the first person to address the effects of white privlege, or how it shapes and distorts the way people see the world. Furthermore, I simply addressed that Silfren took a lot of time to share her thoughts, and be honest and frank about her feelings about living in a society with white privlege. I think it took a lot of guts to be so honest about her feelings and her perspective.

Joy Divison wrote...

How else should I have responded when she admitted she still makes assumptions based on color?  And to her admission that "she doesn't want to go back to Jim Crow Laws" (how progressive!)?  Within that commentary is the assumption that I, too, as a white person also make assumptions based on skin because whether or not I realize it I live in a privileged society which benefits me.  OK I'll be a bit more serious. Don't make assumptions on people based on their skin color.  It's not cool.  Don't flatly call white people racists because they don't do something which matches your socio-political world view and then tell them how they should think.  That's not really cool either.

LiquidGrape already addressed this far better than I will, but Silfren was addressing white privlege. Let's not pretend that Dragon Age isn't shaped by that, considering how The Warden's family is always white, how Hawke starts off as a white protagonist because Varric is telling stories about a white person from Ferelden even if we decide to make him black or brown, the developers are treating white as the default.

[Zkyire]

I love how nobody's even talking about in-game reasons anymore and are just shouting accusations of racism.

I also love the hypocrisy of a few people here. Bioware does a game loosely inspired by East Asia (Jade Empire)? You're all perfectly silent. Bioware then do a game loosely inspired by Europe? "WHITE PRIVILEGE! PREJUDICE! RACIST!"

It's a bloody miracle this thread hasn't been locked yet, especially considering a few posters have actually called the people at Bioware racist themselves.