329 réponses à ce sujet

[PainS]

I agree with variety in Ethnicity, but if they make an Asian Samurai/Ninja that's pushing it too far.

[TheStrand221]

TommyServo wrote...

The fact that this...

We chose to design a setting in such a way that it would preclude encountering non-whites except in the most extreme circumstances. Therenot being non-whites is consistent with the setting, therefore it isn't racist. Including non-whites would be tokenism.

...is entirely unsupported, and in many ways contradicted, by the setting as it's described (beyond, of course, those developer blurbs and the limited scope of the first two games) is what kills me. People scream about the respecting the "integrity" of the setting, when adding a little diversity would accomplish that better than just about anything else I can think of.

You're right of course.  As many others have pointed out Kirkwall, a major port that could easily have generations of people descended from all over the Tevinter Empire (that came willingly or unwillingly) living in it was a missed opportunity to include some plausible diversity.

The only reason why we got what we got, as far as I can see, is that they just didn't give a ****.

[FKA_Servo]

PainS wrote...

I agree with variety in Ethnicity, but if they make an Asian Samurai/Ninja that's pushing it too far.

Why? Plenty of high fantasy tropes stem from a european cultural aesthetic. Is there some reason why an asian cultural aesthetic is unacceptable or ridiculous?

Suppose we learn that the people of Par Vollen are asian? Or the Anderfels?

To bring up the Elder Scrolls once again - Tamriel is a predominantly european...ish setting, comparable in many similar to Thedas. The Akaviri were a civilization, long extinct or assimilated, whose culture and art were based on real-world asian influences. You can see it on the Blades armor, and the large number of Akaviri katanas floating around Cyrodil and Skyrim. Would you say that's out of place, or pushing it too far?

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 07:10 .

[Megavice]

In the forgotten realms you had Samurai's and Ninja's so the concept isn't pushing itself too far in that regard.

Actually it would be pretty cool to play a Samurai in Dragon Age 3 and have that as your background.

[GodWood]

TheStrand221 wrote...

Ah this thread again, the resistance to this issue never ceases to amaze me.

All I have to say is that arguments about Thedas being based on Medieval Europe are irrelevant, because that isn't an excuse for the situation. This argument, and even devs have repeated it, boils down to this:

"We chose to design a setting in such a way that it would preclude encountering non-whites except in the most extreme circumstances. There not being non-whites is consistent with the setting, therefore it isn't racist. Including non-whites would be tokenism."

How is it they don't see that the real issue was the original design choice? Why did they write this setting so that everyone is white? That's the root of the problem, not the skin tone of random NPCs placed with no reason.

But this is not a problem. Thedas does have differing skin tones for different ethinicities (e.g. Rivani are presumably dark, antivans are tan etc) and the only reason why this hasn't been more obvious is because we haven't been to any Thedas countries with predominantly non-white inhabitants.

Contrast this with Skyrim. It's set in the homeland of the Nords, based on Scandenavia, which is as white as it gets outside of an albino convention. Yet you frequently encounter characters of color. Is it immersion breaking? No. Does it spoil that epic Norse feel of the setting? No. Because the setting of Tamriel is written to support the idea. They're traders, or immigrants, or soldiers in an imperial army that draws from all corners of the land. It isn't tokenism and it improves the experience, it doesn't detract from it. All because the Elder Scrolls devs, way back in the early 90s, thought it would be cool to have more diversity in their setting.

The only non-white humans in Skyrim are the redguards who only make up six percent of Skyrim's NPCs.

Honestly I don't see why not having a variety of ethnicities is inherently necessary in a medeval based game. Not all real-world ethnicites exist in Thedas (asian) and of the one's that do they're from countries yet to be explored. You can deny it all you want but it just sounds like PC tokenism to me. Diversity for the sake of diversity is stupid, racial demographics within the setting should be determined by what makes sense according to the lore NOT by appeasing those who feel a need for 'racial representment'.

I'm curious as to why Jade Empire never had this kind of whining. I can imagine I already know the answer.

[TheStrand221]

Oh my, we wouldn't want to "appease" anybody, would we!

It's called empathy. Just because you don't care about something, doesn't mean others don't.

Jade Empire was an extremely rare example of a game made by a western company. But please, do tell what is the answer? I'd like to know.

[FKA_Servo]

GodWood wrote...

Honestly I don't see why not having a variety of ethnicities is inherently necessary in a medeval based game. Not all real-world ethnicites exist in Thedas (asian) and of the one's that do they're from countries yet to be explored. You can deny it all you want but it just sounds like PC tokenism to me. Diversity for the sake of diversity is stupid, racial demographics within the setting should be determined by what makes sense according to the lore NOT by appeasing those who feel a need for 'racial representment'.

I'm curious as to why Jade Empire never had this kind of whining. I can imagine I already know the answer.

It DOES make sense according to the lore. It's absolutely not contradicted by anything in the lore.

Not really interested in tackling the rest, because it's all been said before, but I will question what you find so personally offensive about expanding the diversity of a fictional world. I can't wrap my head around what gets "ruined" by this.

[Wrathion]

GodWood wrote...



I'm curious as to why Jade Empire never had this kind of whining. I can imagine I already know the answer.

I'm only going to tackle this last part. Because the rest is dumb. 

Though, I myself have never played Jade Empire, from what I know it was a video game based on East Asian culture, and that there were white NPC's though, not many. Asian countries are WAAAY less diverse than European ones so...obviously most of the NPC's would be Asian.  And the reason why no one "whined" about it was because out of the thousands of games in exstence there was one that did not put white people as the head or focus of it. And it was awesome. There you go.
Have a nice day.

[addiction21]

Neither Jade Empire or Dragon Age are ment to be accurate historical representations of real world locals.

Also, since it has allready turned into the typical childish sniping and bickering my recommendation is to

[GodWood]

TheStrand221 wrote...
Oh my, we wouldn't want to "appease" anybody, would we!

It's called empathy. Just because you don't care about something, doesn't mean others don't.

So it's for the sake of pandering. At least you admit it.

Jade Empire was an extremely rare example of a game made by a western company. But please, do tell what is the answer? I'd like to know.

A combination of racism and white guilt.

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...
I'm only going to tackle this last part. Because the rest is dumb.

Good rebuttal!

Though, I myself have never played Jade Empire, from what I know it was a video game based on East Asian culture, and that there were white NPC's though, not many.

Of the hundreds (possibly a thousand) NPC's there was one white character.

Asian countries are WAAAY less diverse than European ones so...obviously most of the NPC's would be Asian.

But Jade Empirem wasn't set in a real asian country, it was fictional. Surely the setting should have been designed in such a way that whites got significant representation too.

And the reason why no one "whined" about it was because out of the thousands of games in exstence there was one that did not put white people as the head or focus of it. And it was awesome. There you go.
Have a nice day.

You believe the game [that you never played] was awesome because the main protaganists were not white? You believe the game was actually better by virtue of the main cast not being of a certain ethinicity?

[FKA_Servo]

GodWood wrote...

-snip-

Textbook example of "missing the point."

[TheStrand221]

Wow, so empathy is pandering.

Everyone who doesn't agree with you is a whiner or overcome with white guilt.

People who enjoy the rare games that don't feature whites first and foremost are racist.

And you top it all off with an animated .gif of a little black boy "whining" about racism.

You make a better argument against yourself and your blind privilege then I could ever make. Bravo.

[GodWood]

TommyServo wrote...
It DOES make sense according to the lore. It's absolutely not contradicted by anything in the lore.

It makes sense that they'd exist, but it does not make sense that large quantities of them would be in Fereldan where the country is predominantly white.

Not really interested in tackling the rest, because it's all been said before, but I will question what you find so personally offensive about expanding the diversity of a fictional world. I can't wrap my head around what gets "ruined" by this.

I'm not offended. I simply like to maintain consistency in a setting that has already established racial demographics and not have the lore retconned in the name of appeasing those who need their quasi-racist pandering.

TheStrand221 wrote...
Wow, so empathy is pandering.

Everyone who doesn't agree with you is a whiner or overcome with white guilt.

People who enjoy the rare games that don't feature whites first and foremost are racist.

And you top it all off with an animated .gif of a little black boy "whining" about racism.

You make a better argument against yourself and your blind privilege then I could ever make. Bravo.

Holy strawman argument Batman!

Modifié par GodWood, 17 juillet 2012 - 07:48 .

[Wrathion]

TommyServo wrote...

GodWood wrote...

-snip-

Textbook example of "missing the point."

I know right? I dont' even feel like responding, how is possible that someone could just be...so wrong?

[TheStrand221]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

GodWood wrote...

-snip-

Textbook example of "missing the point."

I know right? I dont' even feel like responding, how is possible that someone could just be...so wrong?

The whole reverse-racism victimization complex thing is pretty old hat, nothing new here.

[FKA_Servo]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

I know right? I dont' even feel like responding, how is possible that someone could just be...so wrong?

It might also be a textbook example of trollin' dun rite.

Personally, I don't care whether Godwood and other posters like that are actually that selfish and tone deaf or just trolls stirring the pot. When I respond to them, it's certainly not for their benefit - if s/he's a troll or jerk whose ignorance is so internalized that s/he feels the need to attack the notion diversity in a videogame on a videogame message board, empathy and logic won't make a dent either way. I post in the hope that the devs see something worth considering.

Around we go, in any case.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 07:59 .

[GodWood]

So instead of actually responding to my points your just going to block your ears, cry troll and circle-jerk amongst yourselves.

Nice.

[CuriousArtemis]

TheStrand221 wrote...

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

GodWood wrote...

-snip-

Textbook example of "missing the point."

I know right? I dont' even feel like responding, how is possible that someone could just be...so wrong?

The whole reverse-racism victimization complex thing is pretty old hat, nothing new here.

I know; once you realize what s/he is, there is no longer a reason to respond to his/her posts.

TommyServo wrote...

Personally, I don't care whether Godwood and other posters like that are actually that selfish and tone deaf or just trolls stirring the pot. When I respond to them, it's certainly not for their benefit - if s/he's a troll or jerk whose ignorance is so internalized that s/he feels the need to attack the notion diversity in a videogame on a videogame message board, empathy and logic won't make a dent either way. I post in the hope that the devs see something worth considering.

 

Great point.  Yeah, let's hope they do.

Currently, as most of you surely know, there's a big ruckus going on about the representation of women in video games.  I see this as a positive move forward in the industry.  Hopefully this will spill over into representations of non-whites in video games as well... including in our beloved Thedas:)

[FKA_Servo]

GodWood wrote...

It makes sense that they'd exist, but it does not make sense that large quantities of them would be in Fereldan where the country is predominantly white.

Denerim would have made sense. Not that that matters, since as the Strand noted, this was a problem from conception.

Besides, I'm not talking about Ferelden, I'm talking about the rest of Thedas, and the future - as is the OP, I think. We're going to be going to new places in Thedas, places we've never seen and may know nothing about. If they're all as thoroughly (and implausibly) whitewashed as Kirkwall, it will be disappointing.

GodWood wrote...

So instead of actually responding to my points your just going to block your ears, cry troll and circle-jerk amongst yourselves.

Nice.

Are you actually here to discuss anything in good faith?

The first thing you did was deride the idea of wanting a more representative humanity in the game as pandering. You dismiss Jade Empire is the result of reverse racism and white guilt.

The existence of Jade Empire *is* awesome, and one of the many reasons it's awesome is because the characters were not overwhelmingly white. Most popular culture is overwhelmingly white (and male) - it's the default. Look at Revan. Look at Shepard. Look at the Warden from the trailers. Look at Hawke. Four games with a customizable protagonist, but in each case the "face" of the franchise was... a white guy. Because Bioware/EA are convinced that anything else wouldn't sell. What kind of message does that send to a child of color who's looking for role models in popular media? What does it say to the person of color who designs Shepard in her own image?

It slaps Sheploo on the cover and says "Cute try, but this is what a REAL hero looks like." That's garbage.

Alexandrine rightly suggested that this was a good thing - that you twist that statement in such a way as to portray it in a racist light shows that you are either ignorant of context and... history in general, and are incapable of contributing meaningfully here, or are trolling for the sake of it.

In light of this, I don't really care what you have to say. I believe you're completely wrong. I might respond, but like I said - it's in the hope that my response is read by someone who matters. It's clear that I'm not going to convince you.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 08:55 .

[GodWood]

motomotogirl wrote...
Currently, as most of you surely know, there's a big ruckus going on about the representation of women in video games. 

Which is not at all analogous to what's being complained about in this thread.

The issue with the depiction of women in videogames is that they're objects of titillation first and actual characters second. Not at all is it a problem of how much they're represented but rather simply how they're represented.

For the gender issue to synonymous with the supposed race issue posited in this thread, races would have to be depicted in a one-note matter with the sole purpose of objectification. What the actual complaint here in this thread is is the lack of non-white characters in an already established predominantly non-white setting.

[GodWood]

TommyServo wrote...
Are you actually here to discuss anything in good faith?

I am here to discuss what is being brought up in the thread. Sadly very few actually want to.

The first thing you did was deride the idea of wanting a more representative humanity in the game as pandering.

No, I dismiss the idea of needing greater representation of races in an already established predominantly white setting soley for the purpose of appeasing those who feel the need for representation as pandering.

If the game was set in Revain (an established non-white country) I would take no issue with it and nor would I demand that there be more whites. 

You dismiss Jade Empire is the result of reverse racism and white guilt.

I did no such thing. Reread what I said.

The existence of Jade Empire *is* awesome, and one of the many reasons it's awesome is because the characters were not overwhelmingly white.

Racist

Most popular culture is overwhelmingly white (and male) - it's the default. Look at Revan. Look at Shepard. Look at the Warden from the trailers. Look at Hawke. Four games with a customizable protagonist, but in each case the "face" of the franchise was... a white guy.

Two of which were white based on the fact that they were set in predominantly white settings, of course they'd be white. The other two are legitimate issues which could be discussed but are not necessary for this thread as it is concerned with representation of race in the Dragon Age setting.

Alexandrine rightly suggested that this was a good thing - that you twist that statement in such a way as to portray it in a racist light shows that you are either ignorant of context and... history in general, and are incapable of contributing meaningfully here, or are trolling for the sake of it.

I presented it as what it was - a racist statement.

S/he said the game was awesome because 'white people' weren't the main ethnicity. It can also be assumed that the fact that it wasn't predominantly populated with white characters 'is a positive thing'.

It shouldn't take a genius to see that as a racist mindset. If I claim that a game is better due to the 'lack of black focus' and posit that the amount of white characters 'is a positive' how am I not racist?

In light of this, I don't really care what you have to say. I believe you're completely wrong.

Where am I wrong? So far I've only been met by strawmans, ad hominems and other logical fallacies.

You're more then welcome to point out any flaws in my stance, unlike others in this thread I welcome discussion.

[FKA_Servo]

GodWood wrote...

Racist.

I don't think so. Pointing out a general dearth of non-white protagonists and lauding a game that flies in the face of that does not a racist statement make.

Two of which were white based on the fact that they were set in predominantly white settings, of course they'd be white. The other two are legitimate issues which could be discussed but are not necessary for this thread as it is concerned with representation of race in the Dragon Age setting.

I'm specifically speaking to the protagonists here. Star Wars and Mass Effect are actually two settings with an incredibly diverse and representative human population. It's awesome, and they should be commended. Inclusive romances is the thing that those two got wrong, not race. It's just unfortunate that they didn't feel a non-white protagonist was worth risking.

Maybe most Fereldans are white, but Hawke was not a native Fereldan. Leandra was from Kirkwall (a cosmopolitan center) and Malcom could have been from anywhere. There is no compelling reason for "iconic" Hawke to not be white... or a dude... other than the status quo.

I presented it as what it was - a racist statement.

S/he said the game was awesome because 'white people' weren't the main ethnicity. It can also be assumed that the fact that it wasn't predominantly populated with white characters 'is a positive thing'.

It shouldn't take a genius to see that as a racist mindset. If I claim that a game is better due to the 'lack of black focus' and posit that the amount of white characters 'is a positive' how am I not racist?

Alex's statement was not racist for the same reason mine was not, and your hypothetical statement would be, because again, context exists. You need to consider this in terms of modern western civilization and recognize that we do not live in a post-racial society. This is still an issue that affects people.

When you praise a game or a setting for a positive, normalized implementation of a racially diverse society with lots of people of lots of different colors, or a piece of popular entertainment that features a cast of solely non-white characters, you're doing it through the lens of a society where white people have systematically discriminated, oppressed, enslaved, and marginalized non-white people for hundreds of years, and a popular culture that, as I said in my previous post, defaults to white players almost all of the time. If I, as an american or a european, say "it's nice to see a game with non-white protagonist for once," there's no awful history looming there. Switch "white" with "black" or "native american" and that statement is a whole lot more ominous because it reinforces, and is reinforced by, that painful history.

There's your context. INB4 "double standard." That's actually how it works.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 09:47 .

[ShadyKat]

Dragon Age really needs to take a few notes from The Elder Scrolls. One of the strong points of that series is the diverse races and cultures it has. Everything from people of color, to talking lizard people. Always loved how they handled races in that series, and wish DA would follow that example. The whole European theme and Tolkien-ish setting is a bit dull, and been done to death.

[Maclimes]

Curious. If Thedas was instead based on Africa, would be people be on here complaining that there weren't enough white or Asian people?

[FKA_Servo]

Maclimes wrote...

Curious. If Thedas was instead based on Africa, would be people be on here complaining that there weren't enough white or Asian people?

Probably. I wouldn't. It's largely academic though. If we're talking major companies like Bioware and EA, a fantasy epic set in a fictionalized Africa would have the deck stacked against it unless it advertised with a white protagonist. They wouldn't even greenlight it because it wouldn't be "safe." That's part of the problem. It's also, unfortunately, the current climate. There are exceptions of course - the first Assassin's Creed comes to mind - but not many.

I would consider such a game progressive and positive - and I would view people who complain about a non-white protagonist or an overwhelming lack of white characters as suspect, because as I explained in my post above, the two situations are not equal. A story with an overwhelmingly white cast, in a setting that doesn't require it (my position is NO setting requires this) does not compromise the status quo and elevate the medium in the way that a diverse, representative cast might. We went through this with inclusive romances and positive representations of LBGT people in Mass Effect (DA ran with this well before that) and the games are undoubtedly better for it.

Edit: for clarification.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 10:04 .