329 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

TommyServo wrote...
I don't think so. Pointing out a general dearth of non-white protagonists and lauding a game that flies in the face of that does not a racist statement make.

Labeling the lack of white people as a positive and seeing that the game has a predominantly non-white cast as a positive is by definition racist.

I'm specifically speaking to the protagonists here. Star Wars and Mass Effect are actually two settings with an incredibly diverse and representative human population. It's awesome, and they should be commended. Inclusive romances is the thing that those two got wrong, not race.

4-7 non-hetero romances and they're still not considered 'inclusive'. 

Jesus Christ. >.>

There's your context. INB4 "double standard." That's actually how it works.

Good to see you're at least aware of your blatant hypocrisy.

Racism has a set definition and anything that meets that definition is by definition racist. Simple as that.

[Wrathion]

Consolidated Praise

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 17 juillet 2012 - 10:31 .

[Wrathion]

GodWood wrote...

Labeling the lack of white people as a positive and seeing that the game has a predominantly non-white cast as a positive is by definition racist.

Are you getting your definition of racism from the dictionary?

4-7 non-hetero romances and they're still not considered 'inclusive'.

Yeah, Bioware gave the gays something. What more do you want?!?!?

Racism has a set definition and anything that meets that definition is by definition racist. Simple as that.

You are. Oh my god, you're getting it from the dictionary. The dictionary is not a legitimate source. Any professor would laugh you out of their class if you tried to use it as one in an assigned paper. 
(Also, the dictionary definition of racism; written by racist white men)

Edit: Fixed

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 17 juillet 2012 - 10:34 .

[SirCrashalot]

ME and KOTOR have better transport, there are no spaceships in DA so that comparison is rather silly.

In the DA world all travel is by foot, horse or sail ship therefore mass (long distance) migrations of people would be unlikely in that respect. As pointed out most "ethnic" humans would be travellers or merchants therefore the number in comparison to the native populations would be very low. In DA2 there is an Indian chap who gives your character a 50% share in the Bone Pit so while the number of shown ethnics are low they are not completely absent. Considering the low number of NPCs in the game anyway having only a few of ethnic heritage would probably be about right unless you want the city 50% full of people from distant lands with no real explanation of how they got there.

Saying it isn't ok for Euro based games, but it is fine for Asian or African games to be mono racial is hypocritical by the way.

I certainly wouldnt mind seeing more adventure/RPGs based on other civilisations or cultures like Aztecs or Chinese, but I think making something for Africa might be a struggle for a standard RPG game due to the lack of technology (armour/weapons) which would take the fun out of the game for those who like to find and upgrade equipment. While the same could be said for Aztecs, they have the whole mysticism thing with traces of ancient (advanced) civilizations that could make for a good game.

Also Bioware would need to be very careful with making an African based game because it would only take one small mistep to have them accused of racism, and nowdays that doesn't take much at all.

[Wrathion]

SirCrashalot wrote...

ME and KOTOR have better transport, there are no spaceships in DA so that comparison is rather silly.

In the DA world all travel is by foot, horse or sail ship therefore mass (long distance) migrations of people would be unlikely in that respect. As pointed out most "ethnic" humans would be travellers or merchants therefore the number in comparison to the native populations would be very low. In DA2 there is an Indian chap who gives your character a 50% share in the Bone Pit so while the number of shown ethnics are low they are not completely absent. Considering the low number of NPCs in the game anyway having only a few of ethnic heritage would probably be about right unless you want the city 50% full of people from distant lands with no real explanation of how they got there.

Saying it isn't ok for Euro based games, but it is fine for Asian or African games to be mono racial is hypocritical by the way.

I certainly wouldnt mind seeing more adventure/RPGs based on other civilisations or cultures like Aztecs or Chinese, but I think making something for Africa might be a struggle for a standard RPG game due to the lack of technology (armour/weapons) which would take the fun out of the game for those who like to find and upgrade equipment. While the same could be said for Aztecs, they have the whole mysticism thing with traces of ancient (advanced) civilizations that could make for a good game.

Also Bioware would need to be very careful with making an African based game because it would only take one small mistep to have them accused of racism, and nowdays that doesn't take much at all.

You lost me at the second "ethnics". 

[Megavice]

Lol this is still going on? Jesus Christ, if people are actually pissed off about this then whining about it here isn't going to fix it. Want to do something about it? Boycott Bioware, dont buy their games. Dont give them your money. Bioware dont care what you think about this if you just keep giving away your money.

Better to do that rather than argue with some random guy on the internet in the hopes that a dev will see this and actually care.

[Wrathion]

Megavice wrote...

Lol this is still going on? Jesus Christ, if people are actually pissed off about this then whining about it here isn't going to fix it. Want to do something about it? Boycott Bioware, dont buy their games. Dont give them your money. Bioware dont care what you think about this if you just keep giving away your money.

Better to do that rather than argue with some random guy on the internet in the hopes that a dev will see this and actually care.

There you go, giving your opinion again. The fact that you're commenting her contradicts everything you've just said.

Boy Bye.

[Maclimes]

Megavice wrote...

Lol this is still going on? Jesus Christ, if people are actually pissed off about this then whining about it here isn't going to fix it. Want to do something about it? Boycott Bioware, dont buy their games. Dont give them your money. Bioware dont care what you think about this if you just keep giving away your money.

Better to do that rather than argue with some random guy on the internet in the hopes that a dev will see this and actually care.

Reasonable discourse is anathema to this forum. This forum is specifically to give crazy people (100% of the people in this thread, self included) a padded cell to bounce off each other, while normal people are simply doing exactly what you suggested.

[FKA_Servo]

GodWood wrote...
4-7 non-hetero romances and they're still not considered 'inclusive'. 
Jesus Christ. >.>

Not a single male/male same sex romance option until ME3.

In KoTOR  - Juhani. That's it. Nothing in SWtOR.

Yes, they had a ways to go. They still do.

Labeling the lack of white people as a positive and seeing that the game has a predominantly non-white cast as a positive is by definition racist.

Not what I'm saying. You're taking a statement in favor of diversity that decries racism and spinning it. Again. 

Good to see you're at least aware of your blatant hypocrisy.

Racism has a set definition and anything that meets that definition is by definition racist. Simple as that.

And I will say - again - that context exists, and you are ignoring it. In a hypothetical reality free from racial discrimination and racially motivated violence, where a premium was not put on one race over any other - in other words, a reality where everyone is actually equal in the eyes of everyone else - you'd be exactly correct. That's not our reality. Our reality is a bit more nuanced, a lot less equal. 

In any case, wishing to remedy that, and starting with looking to popular cultue for more diverse representations of other groups, is not racist. But arguing emphatically against that diversity is questionable.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 11:14 .

[SirCrashalot]

Maclimes wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Lol this is still going on? Jesus Christ, if people are actually pissed off about this then whining about it here isn't going to fix it. Want to do something about it? Boycott Bioware, dont buy their games. Dont give them your money. Bioware dont care what you think about this if you just keep giving away your money.

Better to do that rather than argue with some random guy on the internet in the hopes that a dev will see this and actually care.

Reasonable discourse is anathema to this forum. This forum is specifically to give crazy people (100% of the people in this thread, self included) a padded cell to bounce off each other, while normal people are simply doing exactly what you suggested.

True, but I was bored and haven't posted for a while. I'd forgotten just how fundamentalist people can be over fantasy based computer games.

[Megavice]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Lol this is still going on? Jesus Christ, if people are actually pissed off about this then whining about it here isn't going to fix it. Want to do something about it? Boycott Bioware, dont buy their games. Dont give them your money. Bioware dont care what you think about this if you just keep giving away your money.

Better to do that rather than argue with some random guy on the internet in the hopes that a dev will see this and actually care.

There you go, giving your opinion again. The fact that you're commenting her contradicts everything you've just said.

Boy Bye.

Ah once again it is you.  I was curious how things have developed,  and how does it contradict?
Do you know what that word means?

i was saying how foolish you all was for arguing over this rather than attempting to persuade Bioware to change their stance on this rather than sit ont he otherside of a screen and complain.  I never said i was going to do anything about it, but you said you wanted to do.  i dont see a contradiction there my dear. I've got no great crusade yet, once i do though, if i am on here arguging with you then you can call me a hypocrite.

[addiction21]

What is a opinion? A fact? What does commenting mean? Or contradict? Boy? Bye?
Apparently the dictionary is a lie and words are meaningless.

Maclimes wrote...

Reasonable discourse is anathema to this forum. This forum is specifically to give crazy people (100% of the people in this thread, self included) a padded cell to bounce off each other, while normal people are simply doing exactly what you suggested.

Good thing I am a Rooster. Not bound by human rules and concepts. Do not worry. Our day is coming. You will see. 12/21/2012.

[Maclimes]

TommyServo wrote...

Not a single male/male same sex romance option until ME3.

Everyone always forgets Jade Empire. Sky was a male companion who was romance-able by a male hero.

[Wrathion]

Megavice wrote...

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Lol this is still going on? Jesus Christ, if people are actually pissed off about this then whining about it here isn't going to fix it. Want to do something about it? Boycott Bioware, dont buy their games. Dont give them your money. Bioware dont care what you think about this if you just keep giving away your money.

Better to do that rather than argue with some random guy on the internet in the hopes that a dev will see this and actually care.

There you go, giving your opinion again. The fact that you're commenting her contradicts everything you've just said.

Boy Bye.

Ah once again it is you.  I was curious how things have developed,  and how does it contradict?
Do you know what that word means?

i was saying how foolish you all was for arguing over this rather than attempting to persuade Bioware to change their stance on this rather than sit ont he otherside of a screen and complain.  I never said i was going to do anything about it, but you said you wanted to do.  i dont see a contradiction there my dear. I've got no great crusade yet, once i do though, if i am on here arguging with you then you can call me a hypocrite.

If all you think we are doing is whining, why are you here? It's obvious positive representation of POC is something you care nothing about. 
Don't police me, when you can't be bothered to follow your own advice.

@Addiction21; you are so cute 

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 17 juillet 2012 - 10:53 .

[FKA_Servo]

Megavice wrote...

Better to do that rather than argue with some random guy on the internet in the hopes that a dev will see this and actually care.

On the contrary, they've proven that they see this, and they've proven that they actually care. They interact with us about this stuff all the time, and they have really taken fan feedback into account on this stuff and changed the games for the better. Finally adding inclusive romances to Mass Effect is a case in point.

Bioware, for all it's problems, is still one of the only companies that makes games I want to play. There are any number of well-reviewed, misogynistic, racially tonedeaf AAA titles around  that I could play - but I'd rather play Bioware games. In light of that, I'm going to stay here and advocate for the things that I think will make them better.

[FKA_Servo]

Maclimes wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Not a single male/male same sex romance option until ME3.

Everyone always forgets Jade Empire. Sky was a male companion who was romance-able by a male hero.

Good call. I DO always forget about that one (I didn't even know it was there until a couple of years ago).

[Megavice]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Lol this is still going on? Jesus Christ, if people are actually pissed off about this then whining about it here isn't going to fix it. Want to do something about it? Boycott Bioware, dont buy their games. Dont give them your money. Bioware dont care what you think about this if you just keep giving away your money.

Better to do that rather than argue with some random guy on the internet in the hopes that a dev will see this and actually care.

There you go, giving your opinion again. The fact that you're commenting her contradicts everything you've just said.

Boy Bye.

Ah once again it is you.  I was curious how things have developed,  and how does it contradict?
Do you know what that word means?

i was saying how foolish you all was for arguing over this rather than attempting to persuade Bioware to change their stance on this rather than sit ont he otherside of a screen and complain.  I never said i was going to do anything about it, but you said you wanted to do.  i dont see a contradiction there my dear. I've got no great crusade yet, once i do though, if i am on here arguging with you then you can call me a hypocrite.

If all you think we are doing is whining, why are you here? It's obvious positive representation of POC is something you care nothing about. 
Don't police me, when you can't be bothered to follow your own advice.

oh i'm sorry, when you become ruler of this place then you can decide where i am allowed to go and not to go. until then i'll just be wherever i want to be.

Oh and you reacted to me. You could of seen what i said as being right but you decided to react with anger and agression towards me rather than realise that what you are doing is in no way helping your cause  and instead go about it in more postive ways by going after the big guy rather than the little nobody.

Like i said, i'm on no great crusade or have an issue to put forward, if i did i wouldn't be here but since i'm not..here i am. I'm not here to troll though, this thread is already doing that for itself. i'm just here for the entertainment now. it was interesting to see what was being talked about but now its just bickering.

[Megavice]

TommyServo wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Not a single male/male same sex romance option until ME3.

Everyone always forgets Jade Empire. Sky was a male companion who was romance-able by a male hero.

Good call. I DO always forget about that one (I didn't even know it was there until a couple of years ago).

Dragon Age had Zevran and Skyrim allows you to have a homosexual marriage doesn't it? I'm not too sure, i've never been married in Skyrim yet.

[FKA_Servo]

Megavice wrote...

Dragon Age had Zevran and Skyrim allows you to have a homosexual marriage doesn't it? I'm not too sure, i've never been married in Skyrim yet.

That comment was specifically referring to Mass Effect and the Bioware Star Wars games. Dragon Age has pretty much always been awesome about inclusive romances. Mass Effect had Liara... and Kelly. No male/male romance options until ME3. Star Wars had a f/f romance with Juhani in KoTOR, but that's it. Although, s/s romances are supposedly in the pipe for SWtOR.

Yes as well in Skyrim, although the romance content in that game is hardly comparable to the stories in a Bioware game. It's just "there" - not that it's not awesome. I basically play Bioware games... and Skyrim.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 juillet 2012 - 11:03 .

[Wrathion]

Megavice wrote...

oh i'm sorry, when you become ruler of this place then you can decide where i am allowed to go and not to go. until then i'll just be wherever i want to be.

Oh and you reacted to me. You could of seen what i said as being right but you decided to react with anger and agression towards me rather than realise that what you are doing is in no way helping your cause  and instead go about it in more postive ways by going after the big guy rather than the little nobody.

Like i said, i'm on no great crusade or have an issue to put forward, if i did i wouldn't be here but since i'm not..here i am. I'm not here to troll though, this thread is already doing that for itself. i'm just here for the entertainment now. it was interesting to see what was being talked about but now its just bickering.

Anger and Aggression? Honey, You think you're new. You aren't, i've heard what you been spouting many times before. It doesn't make me angry. It's highly amusing.

The rest of that: yes yes fascinating.

TommyServo wrote...

That comment was specifically referring to Mass Effect and the Bioware Star Wars games. Dragon Age has pretty much always been awesome about inclusive romances. Mass Effect had Liara... and Kelly. No male/male romance options until ME3. Star Wars had a f/f romance with Juhani in KoTOR, but that's it. Although, s/s romances are supposedly in the pipe for SWtOR.

Yes as well in Skyrim, although the romance content in that game is hardly comparable to the stories in a Bioware game. It's just "there" - not that it's not awesome. I basically play Bioware games... and Skyrim.

Oh, I had to look that up. I could have sword i'd seen a "Kaidan Romance" video for ME. But turns out it was a modder that had extracted some sound files. 
Does anyone know why the romance wasn't ingame?

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 17 juillet 2012 - 11:09 .

[Megavice]

TommyServo wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Dragon Age had Zevran and Skyrim allows you to have a homosexual marriage doesn't it? I'm not too sure, i've never been married in Skyrim yet.

That comment was specifically referring to Mass Effect and the Bioware Star Wars games. Dragon Age has pretty much always been awesome about inclusive romances. Mass Effect had Liara... and Kelly. No male/male romance options until ME3. Star Wars had a f/f romance with Juhani in KoTOR, but that's it. Although, s/s romances are supposedly in the pipe for SWtOR.

Yes as well in Skyrim, although the romance content in that game is hardly comparable to the stories in a Bioware game. It's just "there" - not that it's not awesome. I basically play Bioware games... and Skyrim.

hmm you'll have to forgive me but what does s/s mean?

Temple of Elemental Evil had a homosexual realtionship, you could even get married, i remember that now. It actually got into alot of trouble for that at the time when it was released in 2003.

[Wrathion]

Megavice wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Dragon Age had Zevran and Skyrim allows you to have a homosexual marriage doesn't it? I'm not too sure, i've never been married in Skyrim yet.

That comment was specifically referring to Mass Effect and the Bioware Star Wars games. Dragon Age has pretty much always been awesome about inclusive romances. Mass Effect had Liara... and Kelly. No male/male romance options until ME3. Star Wars had a f/f romance with Juhani in KoTOR, but that's it. Although, s/s romances are supposedly in the pipe for SWtOR.

Yes as well in Skyrim, although the romance content in that game is hardly comparable to the stories in a Bioware game. It's just "there" - not that it's not awesome. I basically play Bioware games... and Skyrim.

hmm you'll have to forgive me but what does s/s mean?

Temple of Elemental Evil had a homosexual realtionship, you could even get married, i remember that now. It actually got into alot of trouble for that at the time when it was released in 2003.

s/s = same sex

Was it f/f and m/m?

*Question Thief*

[Megavice]

[quote]Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

[quote]Megavice wrote...

oh i'm sorry, when you become ruler of this place then you can decide where i am allowed to go and not to go. until then i'll just be wherever i want to be.

Oh and you reacted to me. You could of seen what i said as being right but you decided to react with anger and agression towards me rather than realise that what you are doing is in no way helping your cause  and instead go about it in more postive ways by going after the big guy rather than the little nobody.

Like i said, i'm on no great crusade or have an issue to put forward, if i did i wouldn't be here but since i'm not..here i am. I'm not here to troll though, this thread is already doing that for itself. i'm just here for the entertainment now. it was interesting to see what was being talked about but now its just bickering.

[/quote]

Anger and Aggression? Honey, You think you're new. You aren't, i've heard what you been spouting many times before. It doesn't make me angry. It's highly amusing.

The rest of that: yes yes fascinating.



I dont think i'm new at all lol. I'm glad you find it amusing, i do too but you must be hearing me wrong. As i've done nothing to you at all, you reacted to what i posted in an agressive way or at least tried to. So i reacted as well no?

hmm, though this is childish of us. shall we stop attempting to anger one another or whatever it is we are trying to do?

Modifié par Megavice, 17 juillet 2012 - 11:18 .

[GodWood]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...
You are. Oh my god, you're getting it from the dictionary. The dictionary is not a legitimate source. Any professor would laugh you out of their class if you tried to use it as one in an assigned paper

...

(Also, the dictionary definition of racism; written by racist white men)

Wow.
Ok, ignoring this poster.

TommyServo wrote...
Not a single male/male same sex romance option until ME3.

In KoTOR  - Juhani. That's it. Nothing in SWtOR.

Yes, they had a ways to go. They still do.

Not one single Bioware game has had a BDSM romance. It's a legitimate lifestyle practiced by many people. Why do they shy away from it? Where's their romance?

Furries? Transvestites? No love for them either.

And incest, not a single one. Yes, there's quite the stigma attached to it but so long as they're not reproducing they're not harming anyone. Where's the representation Bioware?

You see it's ridiculous to demand 'equal representation' of all sexual lifestyles simply because there is so many and it's unlikely they'll all be satisfied or accounted for. Personally I take no issue with the inclusion of any of the things mentioned above provided it fits the tone, plot and context of the setting/narrative and was written for the narrative and not to appease minorites out of a sense of politcal correctness.

A character should be gay because he was written as gay, NOT because your game needs to reach it's predetermined gay quota.

Not what I'm saying. You're taking a statement in favor of diversity that decries racism and spinning it. Again.

Most likely not your intent but it is what the content of your post says.

And I will say - again - that context exists, and you are ignoring it.

Because emotional baggage does not change the determined definition of a word. 

In any case, wishing to remedy that, and starting with looking to popular cultue for more diverse representations of minority groups, is not racist. But arguing emphatically against that diversity is questionable.

Still haven't grasped what my actual point I see.

[Megavice]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Megavice wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Megavice wrote...

Dragon Age had Zevran and Skyrim allows you to have a homosexual marriage doesn't it? I'm not too sure, i've never been married in Skyrim yet.

That comment was specifically referring to Mass Effect and the Bioware Star Wars games. Dragon Age has pretty much always been awesome about inclusive romances. Mass Effect had Liara... and Kelly. No male/male romance options until ME3. Star Wars had a f/f romance with Juhani in KoTOR, but that's it. Although, s/s romances are supposedly in the pipe for SWtOR.

Yes as well in Skyrim, although the romance content in that game is hardly comparable to the stories in a Bioware game. It's just "there" - not that it's not awesome. I basically play Bioware games... and Skyrim.

hmm you'll have to forgive me but what does s/s mean?

Temple of Elemental Evil had a homosexual realtionship, you could even get married, i remember that now. It actually got into alot of trouble for that at the time when it was released in 2003.

s/s = same sex

Was it f/f and m/m?

*Question Thief*

ah okay, i thought it might be transgender. That would certinally be new! 

it was m/m but i dont really know much about it, as i looked it up. i've not gotten that far in the game yet. As far as i understand, he offers you sex and love after you free him. I guess that was a start lol.

Off topic i know, but what was the s/s realtionships in Dragon Age 2 and mass effect 3 like? I refuse to buy Bioware games anymore but i'm curious how it was? I'm a bisexual man myself and in all honesty i did not like the male realtionship with Zevran in Dragon Age orgins. Not because i didn't want an s/s realtionship in the game i just  didn't like how it was done.

Modifié par Megavice, 17 juillet 2012 - 11:26 .