329 réponses à ce sujet

[Wrathion]

Megavice wrote...

ah okay, i thought it might be transgender. That would certinally be new! 

it was m/m but i dont really know much about it, as i looked it up. i've not gotten that far in the game yet. As far as i understand, he offers you sex and love after you free him. I guess that was a start lol.

Off topic i know, but what was the s/s realtionships in Dragon Age 2 and mass effect 3 like? I refuse to buy Bioware games anymore but i'm curious how it was? I'm a bisexual man myself and in all honesty i did not like the male realtionship with Zevran in Dragon Age orgins. Not because i didn't want an s/s realtionship in the game i just  didn't like how it was done.

Yeah! I tried headcanoning one of my Hawkes as trangender...but it doesn't work to well when the game keeps screaming "Male" at you. A transgender romance option would be interesting

Lol, You have to start somewhere. Hope it doesn't turn creepy though.

I can't tell you how good the s/s relationships were. Their sexuality (in my opinion) is irrelevent. But there seem to be more misconceptions about Zevran's "super gayness" than there are about Leliana's (or Isabela's even) so...

Even though many write him off as an overly sexual, one dimensional, **** that bangs anything in sight. But he's much more than that. You have to replay, I swear and just listen to him. Or I could find some fan written essays for you. They would do a much better job of explaining that I.

I haven't played passed ME2 so I can't say much about that, sorry :>

[Megavice]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Megavice wrote...

ah okay, i thought it might be transgender. That would certinally be new! 

it was m/m but i dont really know much about it, as i looked it up. i've not gotten that far in the game yet. As far as i understand, he offers you sex and love after you free him. I guess that was a start lol.

Off topic i know, but what was the s/s realtionships in Dragon Age 2 and mass effect 3 like? I refuse to buy Bioware games anymore but i'm curious how it was? I'm a bisexual man myself and in all honesty i did not like the male realtionship with Zevran in Dragon Age orgins. Not because i didn't want an s/s realtionship in the game i just  didn't like how it was done.

Yeah! I tried headcanoning one of my Hawkes as trangender...but it doesn't work to well when the game keeps screaming "Male" at you. A transgender romance option would be interesting

Lol, You have to start somewhere. Hope it doesn't turn creepy though.

I can't tell you how good the s/s relationships were. Their sexuality (in my opinion) is irrelevent. But there seem to be more misconceptions about Zevran's "super gayness" than there are about Leliana's (or Isabela's even) so...

Even though many write him off as an overly sexual, one dimensional, **** that bangs anything in sight. But he's much more than that. You have to replay, I swear and just listen to him. Or I could find some fan written essays for you. They would do a much better job of explaining that I.

I haven't played passed ME2 so I can't say much about that, sorry :>

yeah i would like to try that out. i have no problem dating a transgender person in real life, so i have no problem with it in a game lol.

Yeah my problem with Zevran came from that, he was too in my face about it and he had no real reason to like me. i would enjoy a homosexual realtionship but i like to have depth and meaning. 

I dont know if you've played neverwinter nights mask of the betrayer but there is a character called Gann. It is never stated he is gay and there is no possible realtionsihp with him as a man but you can have one as a female.

Some people think he is actually a closet homosexual though as some of what he says to you, is simliar weather or not your male or female and you do gain a kind of feeling from him that he likes your male character. i actually developed a close realtionship to him with my character and i never thought i would.

[FKA_Servo]

Godwood wrote...
Not one single Bioware game has had a BDSM romance. It's a legitimate lifestyle practiced by many people. Why do they shy away from it? Where's their romance?

Furries? Transvestites? No love for them either.

And incest, not a single one. Yes, there's quite the stigma attached to it but so long as they're not reproducing they're not harming anyone. Where's the representation Bioware?

You see it's ridiculous to demand 'equal representation' of all sexual lifestyles simply because there is so many and it's unlikely they'll all be satisfied or accounted for. Personally I take no issue with the inclusion of any of the things mentioned above provided it fits the tone, plot and context of the setting/narrative and was written for the narrative and not to appease minorites out of a sense of politcal correctness.

A character should be gay because he was written as gay, NOT because your game needs to reach it's predetermined gay quota.

Shepard was written as potentially gay from the start. The precedent was set with Mass Effect 1. Femshep could identify as gay or bisexual and romance Liara or Kelly. Allowing Mshep to identify as gay or bi made that side of the coin consistent with the other. It also allowed for a more identifiable avatar and deeper roleplaying. 

I've never seen anyone advocating for a BDSM relationship option, or an incest option (apart from people building a strawman argument against gay romances, of course). But they are welcome to, and if Bioware deems it appropriate to the tone of their project, then great. That argument doesn't help your credibility though. It's irrelevant to the same sex romance topic, and it's irrelevant here. But I digress. 

Still haven't grasped what my actual point I see.

I think I have. It seems as though your bias and your privilege, and I suppose your ability to "tell it like it is" lead you to conclude that if someone complains about a monolithically whitewashed popular medium, and expresses a desire to see more progressive, diverse representation, and applauds the rare stories that do this - not because they are racist or "hate white people" but because, maybe it's nice to see a hero looking like them for once - they are a racist. I guess? Because the majority of popular media - the overwhelming majority in the case of gaming - doesn't cater to white guys, and is at all concerned with the representation of... anyone else?

I still don't see what your issue is, insofar as how this would compromise the integrity of the setting. At the end of the day, you're still casting diversity as a bad thing, which makes no sense. 

Modifié par TommyServo, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:01 .

[wowpwnslol]

If Bioware doesn't include green colored people in the next DA installment, then I am sure it's racist!

[Megavice]

Well if anyone is curious a game called Phantasmagoria 2 a puzzle of flesh released in 1996

had a character who was openly gay and had a main character who not only engaged in bdsm with women and was submissve but also held a hidden attraction for the gay guy who he was best friends with.

i know it sounds like a cheap game but the gay character they wrote, was the best depiction of a gay person i've ever seen, as a normal person whose just gay. not overly sexual or have any issues or anything. Just happens to be gay and the main character was a normal guy who looked like a nerd who wanted to be with him.

[Wrathion]

Megavice wrote...

yeah i would like to try that out. i have no problem dating a transgender person in real life, so i have no problem with it in a game lol.

Yeah my problem with Zevran came from that, he was too in my face about it and he had no real reason to like me. i would enjoy a homosexual realtionship but i like to have depth and meaning. 

I dont know if you've played neverwinter nights mask of the betrayer but there is a character called Gann. It is never stated he is gay and there is no possible realtionsihp with him as a man but you can have one as a female.

Some people think he is actually a closet homosexual though as some of what he says to you, is simliar weather or not your male or female and you do gain a kind of feeling from him that he likes your male character. i actually developed a close realtionship to him with my character and i never thought i would.

I tried it recently. If you tell him that you don't appreciate his flirting he'll stop. I've never chosen the option before, but for a Warden that doesn't like his flirting it's appropriate. It's pretty early in his dialogue if you've never seen it.
I find Zevran's romance deeper than even Morrigans (my second favorite), but their development overtime is pretty similiar anyway.

Nope, but that reminds me. Some people think that Anders, even if you don't romance him, still has feelings for your Hawke considering some of his dialogue. 
Meh, even if a companion is locked in a opposite sex relationship but their personal sexuality is never specified. I have a hard time thinking of them as heterosexual. If they don't say it, headcanon him gay forever. 

wowpwnslol wrote...




If Bioware doesn't include green colored people in the next DA installment, then I am sure it's racist!

Green people don't exist. Troll harder.

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:18 .

[Megavice]

[quote]Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

[quote]Megavice wrote...

yeah i would like to try that out. i have no problem dating a transgender person in real life, so i have no problem with it in a game lol.

Yeah my problem with Zevran came from that, he was too in my face about it and he had no real reason to like me. i would enjoy a homosexual realtionship but i like to have depth and meaning. 

I dont know if you've played neverwinter nights mask of the betrayer but there is a character called Gann. It is never stated he is gay and there is no possible realtionsihp with him as a man but you can have one as a female.

Some people think he is actually a closet homosexual though as some of what he says to you, is simliar weather or not your male or female and you do gain a kind of feeling from him that he likes your male character. i actually developed a close realtionship to him with my character and i never thought i would.

[/quote]

I tried it recently. If you tell him that you don't appreciate his flirting he'll stop. I've never chosen the option before, but for a Warden that doesn't like his flirting it's appropriate. It's pretty early in his dialogue if you've never seen it.
I find Zevran's romance deeper than even Morrigans (my second favorite), but their development overtime is pretty similiar anyway.

Nope, but that reminds me. Some people think that Anders, even if you don't romance him, still has feelings for your Hawke considering some of his dialogue. 
Meh, even if a companion is locked in a opposite sex relationship but their personal sexuality is never specified. I have a hard time thinking of them as heterosexual. If they don't say it, headcanon him gay forever. 


ahh yeah now i remember there was an option for that. hah i remember on my first playthrough i didn't know who to pick, i picked Morrigan first then i had something with Zevran however i realised that i missed a compaion, Lelliana

 i never went to pick her up at the tavern as i didn't even know about it so she died in Lothering lol. But i cheated her into my party and romanced her instead..i actually liked her french accent

well seeing as how these are cRPG's you could create any kind of romance you want for your characters.

You should check out NWN 2 btw at least its expansion MOTBA as it really is good in story and character. you use the character you had from the first game but i wasn't a fan of the first game.

[Plaintiff]

Having read through this thread, I think now is a good time to mention that "ethnicity" does not actually refer to a person's skin colour. Ethnicity is "the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition".

By that definition, Thedas is ethnically diverse. It has a number of different fictional cultures present in the world, and we meet individuals from all of these cultures.

The representation of people of colour is a different, but related issue. Several come to mind: Isabela, Duncan, Zevran, Hubert the Orlesian Merchant, and the human form of Swiftrunner. There are others, I just can't remember them right now.

Isabela and Duncan may be Rivaini, but Hubert is Orlesian, Zevran is Antivan, and Swiftrunner is, to the best of my knowledge, Ferelden, and we know from meeting other Orlesians, Antivans and Fereldens, that there is a mix of different skintones in all three of these areas. Also, let's not forget that the PC in both games is Ferelden, and you can choose their skin tone.

This all suggests to me that skin colour and ethnicity do not necessarily correlate in the world of Thedas. Dark-skinned people can apparently exist anywhere.

So if you want more representation of coloured peoples, that's fine. Asking for more ethnic diversity is slightly more problematic, it requires the writers to expand the universe, and it seems they aren't prepared to do that at this stage, but there's no reason why they couldn't later.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:41 .

[Wrathion]

Megavice wrote...

ahh yeah now i remember there was an option for that. hah i remember on my first playthrough i didn't know who to pick, i picked Morrigan first then i had something with Zevran however i realised that i missed a compaion, Lelliana

 i never went to pick her up at the tavern as i didn't even know about it so she died in Lothering lol. But i cheated her into my party and romanced her instead..i actually liked her french accent

well seeing as how these are cRPG's you could create any kind of romance you want for your characters.

You should check out NWN 2 btw at least its expansion MOTBA as it really is good in story and character. you use the character you had from the first game but i wasn't a fan of the first game.

Lol, I missed Leliana my first time too. That seems to be a thing among DA players XD
Since she's alive in DA2 it can be assumed that she survived the blight.
Countless playthroughs with her ninja-mancing me has made me dislike her. I feel like a jerk everytime I have to "break up" with her. And then I heard of the "eyelashes" convo...
I like her as a friend.

Sure, until you mention it on a public forum. Then all hell breaks loose if the romance is s/s. It's quite funny.

I would look into it if I wasn't doing so much already, I just started playing DAO on PC so i'm spoiled with mods, and DA2 is still enjoyable for me. NWN would be too much on my plate XD

How long does it take for a forum to be locked?

[Megavice]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

Megavice wrote...

ahh yeah now i remember there was an option for that. hah i remember on my first playthrough i didn't know who to pick, i picked Morrigan first then i had something with Zevran however i realised that i missed a compaion, Lelliana

 i never went to pick her up at the tavern as i didn't even know about it so she died in Lothering lol. But i cheated her into my party and romanced her instead..i actually liked her french accent

well seeing as how these are cRPG's you could create any kind of romance you want for your characters.

You should check out NWN 2 btw at least its expansion MOTBA as it really is good in story and character. you use the character you had from the first game but i wasn't a fan of the first game.

Lol, I missed Leliana my first time too. That seems to be a thing among DA players XD
Since she's alive in DA2 it can be assumed that she survived the blight.
Countless playthroughs with her ninja-mancing me has made me dislike her. I feel like a jerk everytime I have to "break up" with her. And then I heard of the "eyelashes" convo...
I like her as a friend.

Sure, until you mention it on a public forum. Then all hell breaks loose if the romance is s/s. It's quite funny.

I would look into it if I wasn't doing so much already, I just started playing DAO on PC so i'm spoiled with mods, and DA2 is still enjoyable for me. NWN would be too much on my plate XD

How long does it take for a forum to be locked?

You know i did too until i really got to thinking about the Maker and the Chantry.  After i decided that i thought the Maker was a total **** who was unworthy of respect for having decided to damn the whole of humainty just because a few people pissed him off and turn his back on  the people then decide that he still does love them all and wants to help them despite refusing to get rid of the blight and forcing humans to appranty live in a constant fear of him and beg his forgiveness made me raelly have problems with her as i found her belief in the maker rather annoying, i wished i could debate with her about it. but i've not really been given a chance to.

Seems like a wasted chance at really going into some intense convo there.


meh i dont give a damn what people think anyway, so if  they dont like it then fine, but doesn't mean i have to change it lol.

ah i recently began playing Baulders gate 1-3 myself and NWN. only recently began DAO. so wha do you like about DA2 as i heard it was awful.

well given the fact that we've so derailed this thread with our convo, probrably quite soon lol.

[LobselVith8]

wowpwnslol wrote...

If Bioware doesn't include green colored people in the next DA installment, then I am sure it's racist!

People are addressing that they think diversity would be a good thing, instead of the developers acting as though it would ruin the artistic integrity of the narrative to have any diversity. It seems like the developers are ignorant about these concerns - we see how The Warden's family is white, regardless of the skin color chosen for the protagonist, and the "legend" of Hawke is about a white skinned Ferelden.

Given what David Gaider and Stanley Woo have said about the issue, writing off the request for more diversity in the narrative as tokenism, I don't think the developers will properly include diversity in the Dragon Age universe.

[Xilizhra]

You see it's ridiculous to demand 'equal representation' of all sexual lifestyles simply because there is so many and it's unlikely they'll all be satisfied or accounted for. Personally I take no issue with the inclusion of any of the things mentioned above provided it fits the tone, plot and context of the setting/narrative and was written for the narrative and not to appease minorites out of a sense of politcal correctness.

Well, then, it's a good thing none of the bisexual/homosexual romance options we've gotten so far have tonally clashed with anything, yes?

[Gibb_Shepard]

I hope for the sake of the setting's consistency, Bioware doesn't pander to these fools who have no idea how to craft a consistent setting. I would have been intellectually offended if Bioware made Jade Empire with everyone's ****ing race in mind.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Labeling the lack of white people as a positive and seeing that the game has a predominantly non-white cast as a positive is by definition racist.

Are you getting your definition of racism from the dictionary?

Racism has a set definition and anything that meets that definition is by definition racist. Simple as that.

You are. Oh my god, you're getting it from the dictionary. The dictionary is not a legitimate source. Any professor would laugh you out of their class if you tried to use it as one in an assigned paper. 
(Also, the dictionary definition of racism; written by racist white men)

Edit: Fixed

Holy mother of god. Your idiocy knows no bounds. 

[Plaintiff]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I hope for the sake of the setting's consistency, Bioware doesn't pander to these fools who have no idea how to craft a consistent setting. I would have been intellectually offended if Bioware made Jade Empire with everyone's ****ing race in mind.

It would be extremely easy to increase representation without damaging the consistency of the setting.

Thedas is one isolated continent. There have been strong hints in-game that there are lands beyond Thedas that have yet to be discovered and explored.

It would be easy to introduce more ethnic representation by having players travel to one of these previously unknown places. It could even be the major plotline for a future game.

[addiction21]

Retracting a bad joke

Modifié par addiction21, 18 juillet 2012 - 05:24 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I hope for the sake of the setting's consistency, Bioware doesn't pander to these fools who have no idea how to craft a consistent setting. I would have been intellectually offended if Bioware made Jade Empire with everyone's ****ing race in mind.

It would be extremely easy to increase representation without damaging the consistency of the setting.

Thedas is one isolated continent. There have been strong hints in-game that there are lands beyond Thedas that have yet to be discovered and explored.

It would be easy to introduce more ethnic representation by having players travel to one of these previously unknown places. It could even be the major plotline for a future game.

Of course it can be introduced, but the general vibe i'm getting from this thread is that people want new races just plopped into already established locations.

And i think we all know we won't be seeing unestablished locations in the near future. We'll most likely see Tevinter, Nevarra, Rivain, the Anderfels, Seheron, Orlais (likely DA3), and perhaps even Par Vollen, before we visit any lands that are as of yet unestablished.

[FKA_Servo]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I hope for the sake of the setting's consistency, Bioware doesn't pander to these fools who have no idea how to craft a consistent setting. I would have been intellectually offended if Bioware made Jade Empire with everyone's ****ing race in mind.

See now, this sounds like sarcasm to me. I don't get how this is an even an issue to the people who don't care about it. It removes nothing and changes nothing that matters to you! You won't even notice it happened because you aren't even looking for it!

My sarcasm gland has been worn down by years on this forum though, so I could be wrong. 

[Gibb_Shepard]

TommyServo wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I hope for the sake of the setting's consistency, Bioware doesn't pander to these fools who have no idea how to craft a consistent setting. I would have been intellectually offended if Bioware made Jade Empire with everyone's ****ing race in mind.

 I don't get how this is an even an issue to the people who don't care about it. It removes nothing and changes nothing that matters to you! You won't even notice it happened because you aren't even looking for it!

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Let me reiterate what i said: Implanting new races within locations where it has already been established that they don't exist is bad. 

Now reply to that statement by disagreeing or agreeing with it, and tell me why.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 18 juillet 2012 - 05:43 .

[FKA_Servo]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Of course it can be introduced, but the general vibe i'm getting from this thread is that people want new races just plopped into already established locations.

And i think we all know we won't be seeing unestablished locations in the near future. We'll most likely see Tevinter, Nevarra, Rivain, the Anderfels, Seheron, Orlais (likely DA3), and perhaps even Par Vollen, before we visit any lands that are as of yet unestablished.

. 

I can only speak for myself, but this isn't what I want. 

DAO and DA2 are over. That ship has sailed. I think it was a massive missed opportunity in the case of Kirkwall and Denerim, but I'm not asking them to revisit that. 

What I don't want to happen is we go to Rivain, or the Anderfels, or tevinter, or further north towards the equator, and find that hey, everyone is still white! I want Val Royeaux to be a cosmopolitan population center. I want to see parts of thedas that we haven't been to yet, and meet people we've never met. We know that thedas is more diverse than we've seen in the games  - I just want to see that reflected in the game world going forward. 

[Gibb_Shepard]

TommyServo wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Of course it can be introduced, but the general vibe i'm getting from this thread is that people want new races just plopped into already established locations.

And i think we all know we won't be seeing unestablished locations in the near future. We'll most likely see Tevinter, Nevarra, Rivain, the Anderfels, Seheron, Orlais (likely DA3), and perhaps even Par Vollen, before we visit any lands that are as of yet unestablished.

. 

I can only speak for myself, but this isn't what I want. 

DAO and DA2 are over. That ship has sailed. I think it was a massive missed opportunity in the case of Kirkwall and Denerim, but I'm not asking them to revisit that. 

What I don't want to happen is we go to Rivain, or the Anderfels, or tevinter, or further north towards the equator, and find that hey, everyone is still white! I want Val Royeaux to be a cosmopolitan population center. I want to see parts of thedas that we haven't been to yet, and meet people we've never met. We know that thedas is more diverse than we've seen in the games  - I just want to see that reflected in the game world going forward. 

The races have already been established, aswell as their origin. Antivans are latinos, and Rivainis are somewhat African. They are the only differing RL races in Thedas so far. So yes, you may see a lot of Rivainis and Antivans in Orlais, but you can't go in expecting representation for Asians or Middle Easterners, as their races would not be located anywhere in the known Thedas.

Don't expect Orlais to have an equal population of those races. They are predominantly white, and the the coloured men and women would be from either Rivain or Antiva, as previously mentioned. What i don't want is for retcons to take place, such as Orlais suddenly being the origin of the Asian race.

[FKA_Servo]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Let me reiterate what i said: Implanting new races within locations where it has already been established that they don't exist is bad. 

Now reply to that statement by disagreeing or agreeing with it, and tell me why.

 I disagree. I don't see why it matters. I don't see why they can't establish a group of folks migrating down. I can't see why they committed to making this another whitewashed high fantasy setting in the first place. With writing, anything is possible. 

Besides, I'm not talking about Ferelden, or even the free marches, as i said. I'm talking about the rest of thedas. 

Feel free to explain why a particular group of people expatriating to Ferelden is so lore breaking. The world won't explode if a group of Rivaini set up shop in Denerim, or a bunch of hypothetical asian par Volleners decide they want to move south for the summer and vacation in Starkhaven. They exist, and they can travel. I honesty can't thing of any reason why this would be bad. The people who argue against this either seem to be doing so out of some weird conviction that "if anything changes, everything is ruined!" That, or they really have a problem with non-white characters invading their high fantasy.

Modifié par TommyServo, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:05 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

You misinterpreted the sentence. Read the reply you skipped, and reply to that one. And don't be such a damned racist, holy ****. "Whitewash"? Bloody hell.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:07 .

[FKA_Servo]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The races have already been established, aswell as their origin. Antivans are latinos, and Rivainis are somewhat African. They are the only differing RL races in Thedas so far. So yes, you may see a lot of Rivainis and Antivans in Orlais, but you can't go in expecting representation for Asians or Middle Easterners, as their races would not be located anywhere in the known Thedas.

Don't expect Orlais to have an equal population of those races. They are predominantly white, and the the coloured men and women would be from either Rivain or Antiva, as previously mentioned. What i don't want is for retcons to take place, such as Orlais suddenly being the origin of the Asian race.

Actually, I can say with 100% confidence that Rivaini are Rivaini and Antivans are Antivan. Since they are both fictional cultures in a fictional setting, there is no reason why they can't be present anywhere. Certainly no reason given in the game and setting as it stands. 

Who knows what the people of Par Vollen or further north look like? Who's to say they might be present in Val Royeaux? A Qunari delegation maybe? Anything is possible.

Bottom line though, Thedas isn't Europe. You all need to let go of that. 

[Gibb_Shepard]

TommyServo wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

The races have already been established, aswell as their origin. Antivans are latinos, and Rivainis are somewhat African. They are the only differing RL races in Thedas so far. So yes, you may see a lot of Rivainis and Antivans in Orlais, but you can't go in expecting representation for Asians or Middle Easterners, as their races would not be located anywhere in the known Thedas.

Don't expect Orlais to have an equal population of those races. They are predominantly white, and the the coloured men and women would be from either Rivain or Antiva, as previously mentioned. What i don't want is for retcons to take place, such as Orlais suddenly being the origin of the Asian race.

Actually, I can say with 100% confidence that Rivaini are Rivaini and Antivans are Antivan. Since they are both fictional cultures in a fictional setting, there is no reason why they can't be present anywhere. Certainly no reason given in the game and setting as it stands.

Don't even know what your point is here.

Who knows what the people of Par Vollen or further north look like? Who's to say they might be present in Val Royeaux? A Qunari delegation maybe? Anything is possible.

Par Vollen is home of the Qunari/Kossith. We know what they look like. And just about every ethnicity has been shown in the games, save Seheron. So, i guess Seheron could potentially be the origin of a new race, and that'd be fine. 

My problem is the retconning of already established ethnicities, not where they may move to.