329 réponses à ce sujet

[FKA_Servo]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Don't even know what your point is here.

My point is that people should stop treating Thedas as some sort of AU medieval history. Rivaini aren't African and Antivans aren't Latino or whatever. Maybe it served as a broad inspiration for the setting, but people take it too far. Those terms do not exist in Thedas, and real-life history has no bearing on the situation in Thedas.

Par Vollen is home of the Qunari/Kossith. We know what they look like. And just about every ethnicity has been shown in the games, save Seheron. So, i guess Seheron could potentially be the origin of a new race, and that'd be fine. 

My problem is the retconning of already established ethnicities, not where they may move to. 

Par Vollen was the home of a human civilization that could be considered analogous to the civilizations of pre-Columbian South America. The Kossith invaded them and assimilated them into the Qun, but those humans were there first... And are still there currently. We don't know where the Kossith are from, though it's likely beyond Thedas. They aren't native to the continent, as far as we know. 

By my reckoning, we've never met anyone from Seheron or Par Vollen. We've met exactly one Anders (...Anders), and we know hardly anything about his past. He could be a eatablished as a transplant from Ferelden and the rest of the Anderfels could be treated as unknown to us. It wouldn't be a retcon in that case.

Modifié par TommyServo, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:47 .

[Todd23]

I could care less if they add more or less ethnicity. I just want them to stop changing people's ethnicity. Entire races of people going from brown to white, or green to white. Wasn't Isabella a ginger? And god did Merrill get pale, especially considering she came from Fereldan.

[Zanallen]

Set the next game in Rivain and then the majority of people will be dark skinned. Problem solved.

[FKA_Servo]

Todd23 wrote...

I could care less if they add more or less ethnicity. I just want them to stop changing people's ethnicity. Entire races of people going from brown to white, or green to white. Wasn't Isabella a ginger? And god did Merrill get pale, especially considering she came from Fereldan.

The only thing that happened to Isabela was an engine change. She looks pretty much the same as she did in Origins, otherwise. The lighting in the Pearl trips everyone up. 

Edit: With pictures!

Modifié par TommyServo, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:25 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

TommyServo wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Don't even know what your point is here.

My point is that people should stop treating Thedas as some sort of AU medieval history. Rivaini aren't African and Antivans aren't Latino or whatever. Maybe it served as a broad inspiration for the setting, but people take it too far. Those terms do not exist in Thedas, and real-life history has no bearing on the situation in Thedas.


.

Wait, are you upset because not all RL races are being represented or because there aren't enough coloured people to look at?

When this issue comes up, it's usually because everyone wants their race represented within the game for "equality's" sake. If your race not being represented isn't the problem, then why does it matter if the entirety of Thedas is white?

It seems like you want more coloured people in the games because you would like to see less white, as opposed to some kind of equal representation among RL races. That criticism is a very...curious one, if that's the case.

[LobselVith8]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I hope for the sake of the setting's consistency, Bioware doesn't pander to these fools who have no idea how to craft a consistent setting. I would have been intellectually offended if Bioware made Jade Empire with everyone's ****ing race in mind.

Wouldn't it have made sense for Kirkwall to feature more diversity, considering it's a hub for travel along the Free Marches and the Waking Sea, as well as the center of power for templars over eastern Thedas? I don't see the problem with diversity. I think it's unrealistic for places like Kirkwall to feature so little diversity, actually. If the developers are sincerely basing the setting on our own history, there's no excuse for Kirkwall not to be a melting pot for different people from various parts of the known world.

I also think the developers are a little 'blind' to this issue. I doubt The Warden's family would always be white - even if the protagonist is brown or black - if they were considering this issue in the first place. And the "legend" being told about Hawke depicts a white Ferelden, regardless of what Hawke actually looks like. Rather than consider how jarring this would be for players who intended to create ethnically Antivan or Rivaini characters by shielding Hawke's physical appearance in something like the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor, they simply didn't care.

[FKA_Servo]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Wait, are you upset because not all RL races are being represented or because there aren't enough coloured people to look at?

When this issue comes up, it's usually because everyone wants their race represented within the game for "equality's" sake. If your race not being represented isn't the problem, then why does it matter if the entirety of Thedas is white?

It seems like you want more coloured people in the games because you would like to see less white, as opposed to some kind of equal representation among RL races. That criticism is a very...curious one, if that's the case.

Huh. I'm surprised you didn't pull your condescension muscle there. 

The problem that sticks out to me, and clearly to others as well, since this thread crops up about once a week, is that most mainstream entertainment discounts and glosses over what is not perceived as the "mainstream." Marginalized groups - women, people of color, arguably everyone and anyone outside the "straight white male" demographic - are are not considered. The prevailing knowledge assumes that no one is interested in hearing their stories or seeing them portrayed as more than a one note character, or in the background. If Thedas were entirely white, it would just further reinforce this status quo. Which wouldn't surprise me.

But frankly, I know Bioware is better than this. The shift to normalize and implement gay romance in their games shows their interest in making games for everyone. The diverse representative human populations of Mass Effect and Star Wars show this as well. 

The crux of it is that yeah, I'd like to see Thedas be a more diverse place in the future. I'd like Bioware to keep making games that have something to offer to everyone, and don't actively alienate anyone. I'd like to see a fantasy IP that isn't a typical, Tolkien-style whiteguyfest, or boring, stoic dragon killing. For anyone with a little social awareness, this isn't actually a curious criticism. 

Modifié par TommyServo, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:06 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Okay, so it is about equality.

"Rivaini aren't African and Antivans aren't Latino or whatever." This is where i got confused. I was quite obviously pointing out that these fictional ethnicity's represent these particular real life races, but you then made a statement that insinuated that you don't care about races being represented.

And as long as Bioware maintain a consistent setting, and don't start creating inconsistent scenarios in order to pander to all of the minorities out there just so they feel "accepted", then it doesn't faze me in the least.

[AkiKishi]

The setting is established you can read about it in the Wiki or in the PnP game. Changing it for non game reasons is not a compelling arguement .

If you ever travel to the Thedas version of Africa and find it populated by white people feel free to be offended at that point.

[AkiKishi]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I hope for the sake of the setting's consistency, Bioware doesn't pander to these fools who have no idea how to craft a consistent setting. I would have been intellectually offended if Bioware made Jade Empire with everyone's ****ing race in mind.

Wouldn't it have made sense for Kirkwall to feature more diversity, considering it's a hub for travel along the Free Marches and the Waking Sea, as well as the center of power for templars over eastern Thedas? I don't see the problem with diversity. I think it's unrealistic for places like Kirkwall to feature so little diversity, actually. If the developers are sincerely basing the setting on our own history, there's no excuse for Kirkwall not to be a melting pot for different people from various parts of the known world.

I also think the developers are a little 'blind' to this issue. I doubt The Warden's family would always be white - even if the protagonist is brown or black - if they were considering this issue in the first place. And the "legend" being told about Hawke depicts a white Ferelden, regardless of what Hawke actually looks like. Rather than consider how jarring this would be for players who intended to create ethnically Antivan or Rivaini characters by shielding Hawke's physical appearance in something like the Ser Isaac of Clarke armor, they simply didn't care.

The eclipse engine is just bad at darker tones. Design driven by technological limitation. Although it gets a lot of flack, white Isabella looks better in the engine than the original version because of the shading.

Appearence is just trivial in DA2 as far as Hawke goes. It's never refered too, you are from Fereldan and you are more than likely going to be white because of that. Although the option is there to change the colouring, that is as far as it goes.
You won't ever be a Rivian or anything else but a Fereldon with a different skin tone.

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Appearence is just trivial in DA2 as far as Hawke goes. It's never refered too, you are from Fereldan and you are more than likely going to be white because of that. Although the option is there to change the colouring, that is as far as it goes.
You won't ever be a Rivian or anything else but a Fereldon with a different skin tone.

Of course you can be a Rivaini Hawke.

Hawke is not a native Fereldan - s/he's a transplant. S/he was raised in Ferelden, but Leandra is from Kirkwall (so her roots could be... anything. Rivaini, Anders, someone we've never met). Malcom - ditto. We never learn where he's from in Thedas (or beyond).

Modifié par TommyServo, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:26 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

TommyServo wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

I could care less if they add more or less ethnicity. I just want them to stop changing people's ethnicity. Entire races of people going from brown to white, or green to white. Wasn't Isabella a ginger? And god did Merrill get pale, especially considering she came from Fereldan.

The only thing that happened to Isabela was an engine change. She looks pretty much the same as she did in Origins, otherwise. The lighting in the Pearl trips everyone up. 

Edit: With pictures!

I don't buy this theory. No one else has their color changed when entering The Pearl. Isabela clearly looks white. More likely she was intended to be dark skinned and her model was made as such and saved into the templates but when they placed her into the game, they edited her and made her white. So the Isabela in-game is white whereas her template is brown.

Don't forget, her early DA2 concept art had her as a white woman:

 

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:46 .

[FKA_Servo]

Elton John is dead wrote...

I don't buy this theory. No one else has their color changed when entering The Pearl. Isabela clearly looks white. More likely she was intended to be dark skinned and her model was made as such and saved into the templates but when they placed her into the game, they edited her and made her white. So the Isabela in-game is white whereas her template is brown.

K. That's the headmorph from the game files. You can look around for one of the other trainwreck race threads (since locked) where Dave Gaider chimes in to confirm exactly what I said here - that's Isabela, and the lighting changes the way she looks. DA wiki works too - it says the same thing.

This illusion also occurs with my redguard in Skyrim when I go into a tavern or building with similar light.

Don't forget, her early DA2 concept art had her as a white woman:

That's not concept art - that's from the Destiny trailer. As far as I know, we've never seen any concept art for Isabela (and there isn't any on the official site). That's promotional material, and the fact that they lightened her skin is depressing, but not surprising (they passed it off as a "marketing error"). In any case, two games and Word of Gaider discredit that.

Modifié par TommyServo, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:08 .

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Appearence is just trivial in DA2 as far as Hawke goes. It's never refered too, you are from Fereldan and you are more than likely going to be white because of that. Although the option is there to change the colouring, that is as far as it goes.
You won't ever be a Rivian or anything else but a Fereldon with a different skin tone.

Of course you can be a Rivaini Hawke.

Hawke is not a native Fereldan - s/he's a transplant. S/he was raised in Ferelden, but Leandra is from Kirkwall (so her roots could be... anything. Rivaini, Anders, someone we've never met). Malcom - ditto. We never learn where he's from in Thedas (or beyond).

As far as the game is concered you are from Fereldan , whatever else you make up. Well that's just making stuff up. The game will never acknowledge you as anything else.

[Fox In The Box]

TommyServo wrote...

That's not concept art - that's from the Destiny trailer. As far as I know, we've never seen any concept art for Isabela (and there isn't any on the official site). That's promotional material, and the fact that they lightened her skin is depressing, but not surprising (they passed it off as a "marketing error"). In any case, two games and Word of Gaider discredit that.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think this is some concept art of the DA2 companions;



Isabela stands next to Flemeth.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 18 juillet 2012 - 08:17 .

[FKA_Servo]

Fox In The Box wrote...

I'm not entirely sure, but I think this is some concept art of the DA2 companions;

*picture snipped, because huge*

Isabela stands next to Flemeth.

Nice catch! I think you're right - all of those pictures match the style of Hawke, Aveline, and Sebastian (shown there, and which I believe are the only ones actually shown on the site).

That would appear to settle that, then.

Modifié par TommyServo, 18 juillet 2012 - 08:24 .

[Maclimes]

I've never seen some of those pictures. Concept Art Merril looks like a total badass!

[Silfren]

You see it's ridiculous to demand 'equal representation' of all sexual lifestyles simply because there is so many and it's unlikely they'll all be satisfied or accounted for. Personally I take no issue with the inclusion of any of the things mentioned above provided it fits the tone, plot and context of the setting/narrative and was written for the narrative and not to appease minorites out of a sense of politcal correctness.

Wait.  Writing content that includes people outside of the dominant culture amounts to just appeasing them out of a sense of political correctness? 

Way to remove even the possibility that game devs might want to do the right thing and acknowledge that more than just one particular demographic plays their games and would appreciate having content that makes them feel included.  Or just the fact that, hey, it's the economically smart thing to do, appealing to as wide an audience as possible.

(And really you people who buy this PC crap need to get over yourselves.  What you call being PC as if that's such a horrific thing, has never been anything more than the attempt by decent folks to be aware of and sensitive to the opinions of marginalized people.  Oh, the horror of such compassion!)

Modifié par Silfren, 18 juillet 2012 - 09:42 .

[Androme]

Rivain is the only nation with dark-skinned humans as primary ethnicity amongst the population. (?)

Modifié par Androme, 18 juillet 2012 - 09:48 .

[Silfren]

Anyone who wants to make the "but ethnic diversity wouldn't be realistic to the setting" argument should really take the time to read this blog article.  

In short: "It's a dumb argument.  Stop making it."

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

Anyone who wants to make the "but ethnic diversity wouldn't be realistic to the setting" argument should really take the time to read this blog article.  

In short: "It's a dumb argument.  Stop making it."

Also people tend to forget about Mongolian invasion of Europe, what with the intermingling of cultures/people. (Whether it's consensual or not, i'll leave it up to the imagination.)

Modifié par The Hierophant, 18 juillet 2012 - 10:19 .

[Zkyire]

Ferelden is supposed to be a white country, with some non-whites living there.

That's exactly what you get.

Yet you whine because there's not 100% equal representation of all races? What?

So if there's a game set in Rivain, I will get to whine if half the characters aren't white? Brilliant. I'll remember to do that.

[The Hierophant]

Zkyire wrote...

Ferelden is supposed to be a white country, with some non-whites living there.

That's exactly what you get.

Yet you whine because there's not 100% equal representation of all races? What?

So if there's a game set in Rivain, I will get to whine if half the characters aren't white? Brilliant. I'll remember to do that.

Don't do it, Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson will find you. I don't know how but they'll find you.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 19 juillet 2012 - 02:35 .

[AkiKishi]

Silfren wrote...

You see it's ridiculous to demand 'equal representation' of all sexual lifestyles simply because there is so many and it's unlikely they'll all be satisfied or accounted for. Personally I take no issue with the inclusion of any of the things mentioned above provided it fits the tone, plot and context of the setting/narrative and was written for the narrative and not to appease minorites out of a sense of politcal correctness.

Wait.  Writing content that includes people outside of the dominant culture amounts to just appeasing them out of a sense of political correctness? 

Way to remove even the possibility that game devs might want to do the right thing and acknowledge that more than just one particular demographic plays their games and would appreciate having content that makes them feel included.  Or just the fact that, hey, it's the economically smart thing to do, appealing to as wide an audience as possible.

(And really you people who buy this PC crap need to get over yourselves.  What you call being PC as if that's such a horrific thing, has never been anything more than the attempt by decent folks to be aware of and sensitive to the opinions of marginalized people.  Oh, the horror of such compassion!)

Fantasy world remember ?

The demographic of the people playing the game should not even matter. The world is already established you can't go retconning things just because some people feel the need to make everything equal.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 19 juillet 2012 - 09:31 .

[LobselVith8]

Zkyire wrote...

Ferelden is supposed to be a white country, with some non-whites living there.

Yet you all whine because there's not 100% equal representation of all races? What?

People wrote nuanced arguments and statements addressing their concerns about this. I don't see the point in denigrating their arguments because you dislike the notion of diversity. The fact that a trading hub like Kirkwall should have had diversity because of the traffic it would get as an entrance to the Free Marches, and its position along the Waking Sea, is another issue that has been stressed in this thread.

As Silfren pointed out, it seems like the developers think they are catering Dragon Age to simply one demographic. We see this with The Warden always having a white family, even if the player created a brown or black Warden. We see this with the legend of Hawke telling the story of a white Ferelden, which means Varric is telling the story of Hawke as white even if the protagonist is brown or black. That leaves me to wonder why my non-white protagonist is white in the stories that Varric is telling about him.

I don't see the problem in expanding the diversity of Thedas, and I don't get how marginalizing people is justified with the "fantasy" excuse. The fact that it's a fantasy makes it all the more absurd, since the only limitations are the imaginations of the creators.