329 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Ferelden is supposed to be a white country, with some non-whites living there.

Yet you all whine because there's not 100% equal representation of all races? What?

People wrote nuanced arguments and statements addressing their concerns about this. I don't see the point in denigrating their arguments because you dislike the notion of diversity. The fact that a trading hub like Kirkwall should have had diversity because of the traffic it would get as an entrance to the Free Marches, and its position along the Waking Sea, is another issue that has been stressed in this thread.

As Silfren pointed out, it seems like the developers think they are catering Dragon Age to simply one demographic. We see this with The Warden always having a white family, even if the player created a brown or black Warden. We see this with the legend of Hawke telling the story of a white Ferelden, which means Varric is telling the story of Hawke as white even if the protagonist is brown or black. That leaves me to wonder why my non-white protagonist is white in the stories that Varric is telling about him.

I don't see the problem in expanding the diversity of Thedas, and I don't get how marginalizing people is justified with the "fantasy" excuse. The fact that it's a fantasy makes it all the more absurd, since the only limitations are the imaginations of the creators.

I already pointed out that the Eclipse engine is bad with darker skin tones.  This was likely a consideration when they created the game.  Thedas is now done you can't go around retconning things just becauise it does not fit your ideal mix.

[LobselVith8]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Thedas is now done you can't go around rectonning things just becauise it does not fit your ideal mix.

Having diversity in places like Kirkwall wouldn't have rectonned anything. Pointing out the failure of the developers to realistically address that a trading hub would actually have more than one single type of person doesn't hinge on your personal interpretation of the Eclipse engine. And considering that people are capable of travel in Thedas, I don't see why you are so adamant against diversity in the narrative.

[Zkyire]

It's absurd. You want diversity for the sake of diversity.

What's wrong with say Ferelden being a white country, and say Rivain being a black country? Why do every single country in Thedas have to be equally mixed?

Don't give me this "it's a fantasy" malarky. In this setting, travel is still slow, and expensive unless you have connections. Most people are poor and cannot afford this.

Slow, dangerous travel, combined with most of the population being poor peasants means very, very little travel outside of one's own country. So there'd be very little ethnic diversity.

So the only, the only reason you want more non-white people in the specifically white countries of southern Thedas is because "I'm not white so I want more non-whites there." Which is an absolutely absurd reason.

Now with Humans out of the way, what about Dwarves? Realistically most of the Dwarves would be pale skinned as they live underground. The surface Dwarves would have slightly darker skin, because of sunlight exposure, but they still wouldn't be black as they live in southern Thedas, which is comparable to northern Europe in terms of climate. Now, if a future Dragon Age game is set in northern Thedas where the climate is much warmer, and there are Dwarves living there? Then sure, they'd be dark skinned. But not in the south.

So, whether you like it or not, black people and white people don't come from the same part of the world. Whether in real life, or in the Dragon Age world. It takes travel, time and money. These countries have their dominant ethnicities, that's how it is, if you don't like it, wait until another DA game is set further north. Petition Bioware to do a future DA game in Seheron or Rivain, where the people are dark skinned. But don't complain about southern Thedas (which is supposed to be predominantly white) for being exactly how it is supposed to be.

Modifié par Zkyire, 19 juillet 2012 - 01:22 .

[Maclimes]

People keep mentioning Kirkwall as a trading hub. I don't remember that being mentioned.

And looking at a map, Kirkwall is not well situated to be a "diverse" trading hub. I think Ostwick is better situated, as the entry point to the Waking Sea area (Orlais, Ferelden, Free Marches) from the more "ethnic" areas (Rivain, Antiva, Par Vollen). The Anderfels and Tevinter are really not well accessible to Kirkwall at all. It's eitherr sail around the entire continent, or make a HUGE overland journey across Nevarr and most of the Free Marches (and the Imperial Highway there passes through Cumberland, not Kirkwall).

The way trade likely works is that most traders from Rivain, Antiva, Par Vollen, and Tevinter likely travel to Ostwick, where they sell or drop off their cargo and return home, while the cargo is then distributed by locals (Marchers and Fereldens) further into the sea to Orlais, Ferelden, and Kirkwall. As for overland trade, that would pass through Cumberland, as the naval trade does through Ostwick.

As near as I can tell, Kirkwall is not a relevant trading port, other than as perhaps a resting point on the way from Ostwick to Cumberland and Orlais, or a distribution point for the local areas of the Free Marches. And the vast majority of those traders would be local people, as the imported goods would likely have been offloaded in Cumberland or Ostwick.

Modifié par Maclimes, 19 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .

[LobselVith8]

Zkyire wrote...

So the only, the only reason you want more non-white people in the specifically white countries of southern Thedas is because "I'm not white so I want more non-whites there." Which is an absolutely absurd reason.

Historically, there was diversity in places like Kirkwall. I get the feeling you don't care, though. But perhaps you can share some insight into why Varric is telling tales about a white protagonist even if Hawke isn't white? Why make it clear Varric tells tales about a white Ferelden when we can make Hawke nonwhite?

[EricHVela]

I agree that Kirkwall is not a good trading port, but I think it might provide a choke-point in trade with the threat of their ability to block the routes. Given the overzealous Templars in Kirkwall, I doubt many would stay long if they didn't need to do so.

Still, I felt there was a bit of unnecessary pandering through some aspects of recent BWE games. It seemed a bit obvious to me (and many acknowledged the pandering directed at them by claiming that "it's fair to [them]" instead of "it's accurate to the setting").

If they diversify the "ethnicity" in the future, I would want a valid in-character reason for it without nixing the established social design.

I also would not want some kind of wild, important variance that suddenly appears out of nowhere with a Journal description that somehow did not get an entry in previous games. (This differs from something new appearing, This is specific to something that exists and gets a drastic change with a journal entry that should have been in a previous game.)

I am "multi-ethnic", but I don't want that to be a deciding factor for authors to tell me a story. I can understand that others want to see their ethnicity portrayed (usually only positively) in stories, but when it becomes obvious to me that it's out-of-place or thrown into the story as an afterthought, it seems insincere to me.

[Maclimes]

When it comes to the diversity, I would expect Ostwick to be a very diverse port city, with Rivaini, Antivan, Ferelden, and Free Marcher merchants all plying their trade.
Cumberland would have a mix of Orlesian, Ferelden, Nevarran, Marcher, and Tevinter merchants.

But Kirkwall is just a stop along the Ferelden/Orlais/Free Marchs line.

[LobselVith8]

There's a quest about a plot by some in Kirkwall to take down ships from Amarantine because the arling threatens Kirkwall's dominance over the Waking Sea. How are people saying that it's not a good or valid trading port considering that it's status as a trading port is one of the quests given to Hawke?

[Maclimes]

LobselVith8 wrote...

But perhaps you can share some insight into why Varric is telling tales about a white protagonist even if Hawke isn't white? Why make it clear Varric tells tales about a white Ferelden when we can make Hawke nonwhite?

This bugs me, but I understand the reasoning. (Not saying it's correct, just that I understand it).

Instead of the traditional "Create character, assign stats, get backstory, then begin the actual game" beginning of most RPGs, they instead wanted a "get right into the action" style intro. And I do understand the value of such an approach.

But it came with a number of important flaws. One of which is the ethnic assignment of Hawke as white. Can you see that retraction on Varric's part? "Okay, I lied, he wasn't really a white guy with a beard. He was actually a bald black guy."

This could have been handled way better. I don't see why we couldn't have the character creator first, THEN do the "jump into action" method.

[Maclimes]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a quest about a plot by some in Kirkwall to take down ships from Amarantine because the arling threatens Kirkwall's dominance over the Waking Sea. How are people saying that it's not a good or valid trading port considering that it's status as a trading port is one of the quests given to Hawke?

Yes, dominance over the Waking Sea. The only nations on the Waking Sea are the Free Marches, Ferelden, and Orlais. It is an important "local" trading port (both Kirkwall and Amaranthine are centrally located in the Waking Sea). But that does not make it a major international trading port.

Antiva, Rivain, Tevinter, Par Vollen... all of these places are far outside the Waking Sea, and would likely trade at an entry port, not sail all the way to the center of the Sea first.

[AkiKishi]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

So the only, the only reason you want more non-white people in the specifically white countries of southern Thedas is because "I'm not white so I want more non-whites there." Which is an absolutely absurd reason.

Historically, there was diversity in places like Kirkwall. I get the feeling you don't care, though. But perhaps you can share some insight into why Varric is telling tales about a white protagonist even if Hawke isn't white? Why make it clear Varric tells tales about a white Ferelden when we can make Hawke nonwhite?

Because appearence in DA and ME is trivial. If you are not playing Sheploo (or Jane) then your playing a version that only exists for you. The game won't acknowledge it in anyway shape or form. Same with Hawke. Hawke is the guy on the box cover/posters.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 19 juillet 2012 - 02:30 .

[LobselVith8]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Because appearence in DA and ME is trivial. If you are not playing Sheploo (or Jane) then your playing a version that only exists for you. The game won't acknowledge it in anyway shape or form. Same with Hawke. Hawke is the guy on the box cover/posters.

I don't see how it's trival when The Warden's background factors into how people respond to the protagonist, from Sten's comments towards a female Warden to how being an elven protagonist is treated by Shianni, the Dalish, and the humans. Appearance isn't meant to be trival at all. As for Hawke, I think it's jarring because the player determines how Hawke appears - white, black, yellow, brown - while Varric has apparently been describing him as white for years. I wonder if Dragon Age III will repeat this for the new protagonist.

[AkiKishi]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Because appearence in DA and ME is trivial. If you are not playing Sheploo (or Jane) then your playing a version that only exists for you. The game won't acknowledge it in anyway shape or form. Same with Hawke. Hawke is the guy on the box cover/posters.

I don't see how it's trival when The Warden's background factors into how people respond to the protagonist, from Sten's comments towards a female Warden to how being an elven protagonist is treated by Shianni, the Dalish, and the humans. Appearance isn't meant to be trival at all. As for Hawke, I think it's jarring because the player determines how Hawke appears - white, black, yellow, brown - while Varric has apparently been describing him as white for years. I wonder if Dragon Age III will repeat this for the new protagonist.

If it's not trivial then come up with an example that actually uses appearence and not something completely unrelated like background gender or race.

In those examples what the character looks like changes nothing.

[LobselVith8]

BobSmith101 wrote...

If it's not trivial then come up with an example that actually uses appearence and not something completely unrelated like background gender or race.

In those examples what the character looks like changes nothing.

Gender and race are part of the protagonist's appearance. Therefore, it isn't trivial.

[AkiKishi]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

If it's not trivial then come up with an example that actually uses appearence and not something completely unrelated like background gender or race.

In those examples what the character looks like changes nothing.

Gender and race are part of the protagonist's appearance. Therefore, it isn't trivial.

No they are not. Appearence are those sliders you play around with to determine what the character looks like. Gender and race are seperate selections.

The game might acknowledge you as a woman or an elf but it does not care what that woman or elf looks like.

[Maclimes]

BobSmith101 wrote...

No they are not. Appearence are those sliders you play around with to determine what the character looks like. Gender and race are seperate selections.

The game might acknowledge you as a woman or an elf but it does not care what that woman or elf looks like.

This can be proven. Creating the ugliest, most Maker-forsaken looking Warden you possible can.

Then meet Zevran. He will call you "handsome" or "beautiful". There's a few options, of course:

* Zevran has no taste, or at least terrible taste.
* Zevran is a big fat liar.
* Zevran's dialogue does not actually take your appearance into consideration.

Now, of course, you can justify in your headcanon one of the first two reasons, but the ACTUAL reason, the TRUTH, is the third one.

[LobselVith8]

BobSmith101 wrote...

No they are not.

Of course they are. The appearance of the protagonist is tied with their race and their gender. An elf doesn't have the same appearance as a dwarf. We can keep going back and forth about this, but it doesn't change the fundamental fact that a person's appearance isn't exclusive from their race and gender.

Getting back to the OP, ethnicity is clearly an issue, considering how this topic is brought up again and again since Origins was released. Some people seem to act as though having diversity in the setting would be a bad thing, and I don't see why. Would being inclusive to marginalized groups be so detrimental to Dragon Age? You might not think it matters, but not everyone shares your view on the matter.

[AkiKishi]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

No they are not.

Of course they are. The appearance of the protagonist is tied with their race and their gender. An elf doesn't have the same appearance as a dwarf. We can keep going back and forth about this, but it doesn't change the fundamental fact that a person's appearance isn't exclusive from their race and gender.

Getting back to the OP, ethnicity is clearly an issue, considering how this topic is brought up again and again since Origins was released. Some people seem to act as though having diversity in the setting would be a bad thing, and I don't see why. Would being inclusive to marginalized groups be so detrimental to Dragon Age? You might not think it matters, but not everyone shares your view on the matter.

See above post.

The game will acknowlege you are an elf or a dwarf not what you look like.

The setting is already established. Changing it just so people can feel included is not a good enough reason.

[Silfren]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

You see it's ridiculous to demand 'equal representation' of all sexual lifestyles simply because there is so many and it's unlikely they'll all be satisfied or accounted for. Personally I take no issue with the inclusion of any of the things mentioned above provided it fits the tone, plot and context of the setting/narrative and was written for the narrative and not to appease minorites out of a sense of politcal correctness.

Wait.  Writing content that includes people outside of the dominant culture amounts to just appeasing them out of a sense of political correctness? 

Way to remove even the possibility that game devs might want to do the right thing and acknowledge that more than just one particular demographic plays their games and would appreciate having content that makes them feel included.  Or just the fact that, hey, it's the economically smart thing to do, appealing to as wide an audience as possible.

(And really you people who buy this PC crap need to get over yourselves.  What you call being PC as if that's such a horrific thing, has never been anything more than the attempt by decent folks to be aware of and sensitive to the opinions of marginalized people.  Oh, the horror of such compassion!)

Fantasy world remember ?

The demographic of the people playing the game should not even matter. The world is already established you can't go retconning things just because some people feel the need to make everything equal.

Look, it's real damned easy for white people to scoff at the notion of inclusivity and equality when WE don't have to worry about not being included or made to feel like we've got equal time and space allotted to us. 

The fact of the matter is, fantasy is not created in a vacuum.  It is not humanly possible to create a fantasy universe that is NOT informed in some fashion, to a certain degree, by the personal biases of human beings living in the real world.  Got that?  It just ain't possible.  Try not to think of a pink elephant.  It's the same problem.   Even fantasy that sets out to avoid racist tropes is de facto set within that framework, because no human being in this world can conceive of a non-racist world without arriving at that conception through the vehicle of their experience within the actual world we live in.

The point being, it is a waste of effort to talk about how fantasy is, well, fantasy; not real, not based on real things, not meant to be realistic, etc.  It is not an accident when a fantasy world is peopled almost entirely by white people, and any people of color--when there are any at all--are incidental.  That's not a white person attempting to be realistic to a medieval setting, or some other such nonsense, that's a white person not thinking that anyone other than white people will be consuming their creation, and also that only white people matter, as well as the extremely illogical and misguided notion that white people won't possibly be able to relate to any characters that aren't precisely identifiable with themselves, ethnically speaking.  (The same does not apparently hold true: publishers of various media don't apparently worry about whether PoC audiences will be able to relate to white protagonists.  Ultimately it is a very negative perception of white people's cognitive abilities, but try pointing this out to people who cling to "BUT IT'S A FANTASY!!!!!!!!" Here's a hint:  For this to be your primary, or only, defense of the whitewashing issue...well, that rather baldly illustrates how threatening you find the idea.

Fantasy is dominated by white people writing for a presumed all-white audience NOT because of any other reason but internalized prejudicial thinking.  There's a belief in the industry that white people won't be able to relate to black protagonists, and so on.  This is why the lead character in Hunger Games was whitewashed despite the fact that the book explicitly describes her as being, if not fully a person of color, at minimum biracial.  It's why book covers will whitewash prominent black characters.  Likewise, Dragon Age, being largely produced by white writers and developers, features an almost entirely white cast of characters, because the people involved in writing it probably simply didn't THINK about this particular issue, and people in marketing are probably plagued by the same racist misconceptions as are those involved in the movie and literature industries, insisting that they HAVE to do this because otherwise the poor, confused white people just won't be able to relate, and we CAN'T have that! 

[AkiKishi]

Silfren wrote...

Look, it's real damned easy for white people to scoff at the notion of inclusivity and equality when WE don't have to worry about not being included or made to feel like we've got equal time and space allotted to us. 

The fact of the matter is, fantasy is not created in a vacuum.  It is not humanly possible to create a fantasy universe that is NOT informed in some fashion, to a certain degree, by the personal biases of human beings living in the real world.  Got that?  It just ain't possible.  Try not to think of a pink elephant.  It's the same problem.   Even fantasy that sets out to avoid racist tropes is de facto set within that framework, because no human being in this world can conceive of a non-racist world without arriving at that conception through the vehicle of their experience within the actual world we live in.

The point being, it is a waste of effort to talk about how fantasy is, well, fantasy; not real, not based on real things, not meant to be realistic, etc.  It is not an accident when a fantasy world is peopled almost entirely by white people, and any people of color--when there are any at all--are incidental.  That's not a white person attempting to be realistic to a medieval setting, or some other such nonsense, that's a white person not thinking that anyone other than white people will be consuming their creation, and also that only white people matter, as well as the extremely illogical and misguided notion that white people won't possibly be able to relate to any characters that aren't precisely identifiable with themselves, ethnically speaking.  (The same does not apparently hold true: publishers of various media don't apparently worry about whether PoC audiences will be able to relate to white protagonists.  Ultimately it is a very negative perception of white people's cognitive abilities, but try pointing this out to people who cling to "BUT IT'S A FANTASY!!!!!!!!" Here's a hint:  For this to be your primary, or only, defense of the whitewashing issue...well, that rather baldly illustrates how threatening you find the idea.

Fantasy is dominated by white people writing for a presumed all-white audience NOT because of any other reason but internalized prejudicial thinking.  There's a belief in the industry that white people won't be able to relate to black protagonists, and so on.  This is why the lead character in Hunger Games was whitewashed despite the fact that the book explicitly describes her as being, if not fully a person of color, at minimum biracial.  It's why book covers will whitewash prominent black characters.  Likewise, Dragon Age, being largely produced by white writers and developers, features an almost entirely white cast of characters, because the people involved in writing it probably simply didn't THINK about this particular issue, and people in marketing are probably plagued by the same racist misconceptions as are those involved in the movie and literature industries, insisting that they HAVE to do this because otherwise the poor, confused white people just won't be able to relate, and we CAN'T have that! 

Actually I'd like to play a Rivian. But it would have to be a Rivian and not just a Fereldan with a different skin tone.

Even so go play politics somewhere else. Really don't want or need it in my games.

[Silfren]

Zkyire wrote...

Don't give me this "it's a fantasy" malarky. In this setting, travel is still slow, and expensive unless you have connections. Most people are poor and cannot afford this.

Slow, dangerous travel, combined with most of the population being poor peasants means very, very little travel outside of one's own country. So there'd be very little ethnic diversity.

"Travel was slow/They didn't have airplanes, etc/The Middle Ages"...this is the standard go-to excuse for why a region should be mono-ethnic.  The apparent belief is that because travel was slow, it apparently didn't exist, therefore no non-white people. 

That is, in a nutshell, bullsh!t.  The reality is that the Middle Ages that this game (and other games/media where the same argument is made) is repeatedly claimed to be based on, DID have many regions in Europe that WERE ethnically diverse, and this means that the idea that slow travel=no/little ethnic diversity, is as phenomenally stupid as it is incorrect.

So the only, the only reason you want more non-white people in the specifically white countries of southern Thedas is because "I'm not white so I want more non-whites there." Which is an absolutely absurd reason.

That's not an absurd reason unless you're a white person who never has to worry about not feeling included or represented, and who has a personal, invested interest in ridiculing the needs and concerns of people who perceive the world differently from you.

[Silfren]

Maclimes wrote...

People keep mentioning Kirkwall as a trading hub. I don't remember that being mentioned.

And looking at a map, Kirkwall is not well situated to be a "diverse" trading hub. I think Ostwick is better situated, as the entry point to the Waking Sea area (Orlais, Ferelden, Free Marches) from the more "ethnic" areas (Rivain, Antiva, Par Vollen). The Anderfels and Tevinter are really not well accessible to Kirkwall at all. It's eitherr sail around the entire continent, or make a HUGE overland journey across Nevarr and most of the Free Marches (and the Imperial Highway there passes through Cumberland, not Kirkwall).

The way trade likely works is that most traders from Rivain, Antiva, Par Vollen, and Tevinter likely travel to Ostwick, where they sell or drop off their cargo and return home, while the cargo is then distributed by locals (Marchers and Fereldens) further into the sea to Orlais, Ferelden, and Kirkwall. As for overland trade, that would pass through Cumberland, as the naval trade does through Ostwick.

As near as I can tell, Kirkwall is not a relevant trading port, other than as perhaps a resting point on the way from Ostwick to Cumberland and Orlais, or a distribution point for the local areas of the Free Marches. And the vast majority of those traders would be local people, as the imported goods would likely have been offloaded in Cumberland or Ostwick.

Your opinion aside, the game lore establishes Kirkwall as an important hub of trade.  This isn't something invented by fans, it's part of the game's story.  http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Kirkwall

Ergo, it should be very ethnically diverse.

[Silfren]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Look, it's real damned easy for white people to scoff at the notion of inclusivity and equality when WE don't have to worry about not being included or made to feel like we've got equal time and space allotted to us. 

The fact of the matter is, fantasy is not created in a vacuum.  It is not humanly possible to create a fantasy universe that is NOT informed in some fashion, to a certain degree, by the personal biases of human beings living in the real world.  Got that?  It just ain't possible.  Try not to think of a pink elephant.  It's the same problem.   Even fantasy that sets out to avoid racist tropes is de facto set within that framework, because no human being in this world can conceive of a non-racist world without arriving at that conception through the vehicle of their experience within the actual world we live in.

The point being, it is a waste of effort to talk about how fantasy is, well, fantasy; not real, not based on real things, not meant to be realistic, etc.  It is not an accident when a fantasy world is peopled almost entirely by white people, and any people of color--when there are any at all--are incidental.  That's not a white person attempting to be realistic to a medieval setting, or some other such nonsense, that's a white person not thinking that anyone other than white people will be consuming their creation, and also that only white people matter, as well as the extremely illogical and misguided notion that white people won't possibly be able to relate to any characters that aren't precisely identifiable with themselves, ethnically speaking.  (The same does not apparently hold true: publishers of various media don't apparently worry about whether PoC audiences will be able to relate to white protagonists.  Ultimately it is a very negative perception of white people's cognitive abilities, but try pointing this out to people who cling to "BUT IT'S A FANTASY!!!!!!!!" Here's a hint:  For this to be your primary, or only, defense of the whitewashing issue...well, that rather baldly illustrates how threatening you find the idea.

Fantasy is dominated by white people writing for a presumed all-white audience NOT because of any other reason but internalized prejudicial thinking.  There's a belief in the industry that white people won't be able to relate to black protagonists, and so on.  This is why the lead character in Hunger Games was whitewashed despite the fact that the book explicitly describes her as being, if not fully a person of color, at minimum biracial.  It's why book covers will whitewash prominent black characters.  Likewise, Dragon Age, being largely produced by white writers and developers, features an almost entirely white cast of characters, because the people involved in writing it probably simply didn't THINK about this particular issue, and people in marketing are probably plagued by the same racist misconceptions as are those involved in the movie and literature industries, insisting that they HAVE to do this because otherwise the poor, confused white people just won't be able to relate, and we CAN'T have that! 

Actually I'd like to play a Rivian. But it would have to be a Rivian and not just a Fereldan with a different skin tone.

Even so go play politics somewhere else. Really don't want or need it in my games.

Rivian?  What's a Rivian?  Oh, you mean Rivaini, don't you? 

Righto, write off people's concerns about the lack of diversity as "just playing politics."  There's no better way to completely disregard an opportunity to LEARN something about people whose experience is different from yours.

[Maclimes]

Silfren wrote...

Your opinion aside, the game lore establishes Kirkwall as an important hub of trade.  This isn't something invented by fans, it's part of the game's story.  http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Kirkwall

Ergo, it should be very ethnically diverse.

"Important hub of trade" is not the same thing as "internationally important hub of trade". In some places, there's only one grocery store for 10 towns. That makes it an important hub of trade. It does not make it ethnically diverse.

Anyway, I'm not arguing in favor or in opposition of ethnic diversity. I'm just pointing out geographic layout, and likely implications thereof. 

[Silfren]

Maclimes wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Your opinion aside, the game lore establishes Kirkwall as an important hub of trade.  This isn't something invented by fans, it's part of the game's story.  http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Kirkwall

Ergo, it should be very ethnically diverse.

"Important hub of trade" is not the same thing as "internationally important hub of trade". In some places, there's only one grocery store for 10 towns. That makes it an important hub of trade. It does not make it ethnically diverse.

Anyway, I'm not arguing in favor or in opposition of ethnic diversity. I'm just pointing out geographic layout, and likely implications thereof. 

The words you wrote were that as far as you could tell, "Kirkwall is not a relevant trading port".  That is patently not true per the game lore itself.  Your opinion isn't going to change that the writers specifically wrote Kirkwall as being an important center of trade.

Quite apart from what Kirkwall is now, its original incarnation was as a center of Tevinter's slave trade.  Given that Tevinters will make ANYONE a slave, not any one particular racial/ethnic group, then on that factor alone, Kirkwall should be ethnically diverse. 

Modifié par Silfren, 19 juillet 2012 - 08:53 .