329 réponses à ce sujet

[Maclimes]

Silfren wrote...

The words you wrote were that as far as you could tell, "Kirkwall is not a relevant trading port".  That is patently not true per the game lore itself.  Your opinion isn't going to change that the writers specifically wrote Kirkwall as being an important center of trade.

Keep reading. I revised my opinion a few posts down. And again, "center of trade" does not mean "ethnically diverse". I'm not opposed to Kirkwall being ethnically diverse. But just because it is a trading city does not mean it trades with areas of ethnic diversity. There's no real indiciation that Kirkwall's dominance of trade extends beyong the Waking Sea, which is just Orlais, Ferelden, and the southern Free Marches.

[Silfren]

Maclimes wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The words you wrote were that as far as you could tell, "Kirkwall is not a relevant trading port".  That is patently not true per the game lore itself.  Your opinion isn't going to change that the writers specifically wrote Kirkwall as being an important center of trade.

Keep reading. I revised my opinion a few posts down. And again, "center of trade" does not mean "ethnically diverse". I'm not opposed to Kirkwall being ethnically diverse. But just because it is a trading city does not mean it trades with areas of ethnic diversity. There's no real indiciation that Kirkwall's dominance of trade extends beyong the Waking Sea, which is just Orlais, Ferelden, and the southern Free Marches.

Thing is, though, being a center of trade generally DOES mean ethnically diverse.  Is it a given?  I suppose not, but it is extremely unlikely that a major trading hub would not be.  I reject your example of a grocery store serving ten towns because there is a world of difference between a grocery store serving multiple surrounding towns, and a major sea port, because any locale that is known as a major center of trade, which Kirkwall IS, is going to draw people from all over the world, not just the most geographically close areas. 

The game repeatedly asserts that Kirkwall is a major trading hub., so I'll go with what the game says and take that to mean that it is also almost certainly an ethnically diverse area.

Again, though, this ignores the fact that historically, Kirkwall was a major center of the slave trade, and if nothing else, we know that Tevinters take slaves from anywhere and everywhere.  On that basis alone, Kirkwall should be populated with the descendents of its enslaved forebears, and that should mean the city is highly diverse.

[Maclimes]

Silfren wrote...

The game repeatedly asserts that Kirkwall is a major trading hub., so I'll go with what the game says and take that to mean that it is also almost certainly an ethnically diverse area.

But the game also repeatedly reminds you, by simply looking around, that Kirkwall is NOT ethnically diverse. Sooo... was the game right or not?

So, is it an inconsitency? Was the game wrong about Kirkwall being a major seaport? Was the game wrong about Kirkwall being non-diverse?

Or is it possible that Kirkwall is a major seaport for a non-diverse area, like the Waking Sea, and therefore it's not wrong at all? I prefer to imagine that the game is correct to itself, which means Kirkwall is a non-ethnically diverse place that serves as a major trading hub for the Waking Sea.

Now, let me say, I would have PREFERRED if that were not so. I would rather Kirkwall have been a major hub for the entirety of Thedas, making it more ethnically diverse. More culture, more people, more color, more flavor. But it simply isn't.

[The Hierophant]

Maclimes wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The game repeatedly asserts that Kirkwall is a major trading hub., so I'll go with what the game says and take that to mean that it is also almost certainly an ethnically diverse area.

But the game also repeatedly reminds you, by simply looking around, that Kirkwall is NOT ethnically diverse. Sooo... was the game right or not?

So, is it an inconsitency? Was the game wrong about Kirkwall being a major seaport? Was the game wrong about Kirkwall being non-diverse?

Or is it possible that Kirkwall is a major seaport for a non-diverse area, like the Waking Sea, and therefore it's not wrong at all? I prefer to imagine that the game is correct to itself, which means Kirkwall is a non-ethnically diverse place that serves as a major trading hub for the Waking Sea.

Now, let me say, I would have PREFERRED if that were not so. I would rather Kirkwall have been a major hub for the entirety of Thedas, making it more ethnically diverse. More culture, more people, more color, more flavor. But it simply isn't.

Imho i think the devs lacked the resources and time to create and place the different npc character models. Heck look at all the copy pasted npc littered all over high/low town, and there were no dwarven female npc's whatsoever.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 19 juillet 2012 - 10:56 .

[Maclimes]

The Hierophant wrote...

Imho i think the devs lacked the resources and time to create and place the different npc character models. Heck look at all the copy pasted npc littered all over high/low town, and there were no dwarven female npc's whatsoever.

That is, of course, a consideration as well.

I just like an excuse to look at maps.

[The Hierophant]

Maclimes wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Imho i think the devs lacked the resources and time to create and place the different npc character models. Heck look at all the copy pasted npc littered all over high/low town, and there were no dwarven female npc's whatsoever.

That is, of course, a consideration as well.

I just like an excuse to look at maps.

lol. So far think it's too early for people question the lack of diversity amongst the human races in the DA series while it's only at the second game.

[addiction21]

The Hierophant wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Imho i think the devs lacked the resources and time to create and place the different npc character models. Heck look at all the copy pasted npc littered all over high/low town, and there were no dwarven female npc's whatsoever.

That is, of course, a consideration as well.

I just like an excuse to look at maps.

lol. So far think it's too early for people question the lack of diversity amongst the human races in the DA series while it's only at the second game.

It happened with the first game. It is never too early to demand a fictional world conforms to your real world prefrences.

[Wrathion]

addiction21 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Imho i think the devs lacked the resources and time to create and place the different npc character models. Heck look at all the copy pasted npc littered all over high/low town, and there were no dwarven female npc's whatsoever.

That is, of course, a consideration as well.

I just like an excuse to look at maps.

lol. So far think it's too early for people question the lack of diversity amongst the human races in the DA series while it's only at the second game.

It happened with the first game. It is never too early to demand a fictional world conforms to your real world prefrences.

I thought for sure you were a rooster. Why are you having opinions? You cannot speak.

[The Hierophant]

addiction21 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Imho i think the devs lacked the resources and time to create and place the different npc character models. Heck look at all the copy pasted npc littered all over high/low town, and there were no dwarven female npc's whatsoever.

That is, of course, a consideration as well.

I just like an excuse to look at maps.

lol. So far think it's too early for people question the lack of diversity amongst the human races in the DA series while it's only at the second game.

It happened with the first game. It is never too early to demand a fictional world conforms to your real world prefrences.

True, but my main gripe with using DA2 as an example for a lack of diversity is that the game is an all around rush/hack job in presentation, and story. I have little issue with Fereldan due to the fact that it's considered a back water country. I hope the Dragon Age series follows Steven Erikson's Malazan Series example due to it being a melting pot of races without it seeming like pandering. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 20 juillet 2012 - 12:43 .

[addiction21]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

I thought for sure you were a rooster. Why are you having opinions? You cannot speak.

I have talons and thats enought to hit keys on a keyboard.

[AkiKishi]

addiction21 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Imho i think the devs lacked the resources and time to create and place the different npc character models. Heck look at all the copy pasted npc littered all over high/low town, and there were no dwarven female npc's whatsoever.

That is, of course, a consideration as well.

I just like an excuse to look at maps.

lol. So far think it's too early for people question the lack of diversity amongst the human races in the DA series while it's only at the second game.

It happened with the first game. It is never too early to demand a fictional world conforms to your real world prefrences.

Peoples real world preferences have no place in a fantasy world.Climate, geographical location, transport methods and population drift should be the only considerations.
Part of the problem with DA is it tries to do "medivel" through a modern prism.

[Todd23]

I still don't by the lighting spiel. None of my black friends have turned into gingers, no matter the lighting. Zevran still looks dark in the tavern. And by that picture, she should be darker than him.

[Dintonta]

Silfren wrote...

Anyone who wants to make the "but ethnic diversity wouldn't be realistic to the setting" argument should really take the time to read this blog article.  

In short: "It's a dumb argument.  Stop making it."

Thank you for the link! That's indeed good and healthy reading!

Its last part could also give the gist of why Bioware made the design choices it made for DA (especially if you consider that G.R.R. Martin Fantasy, which is mostly cited in the blog article you linked, is an inspiration source for the DAverse) and why those choices were not necessarily made out of your usual "white privilegied are uncaring",  or out of sheer cowardice regarding the supposed bad sells that could have resulted otherwise.
Because, in long, what the blog-article says is "pseudo-medieval realism is a dumb argument. Stop making it... And : However, you can make a design choice which is utterly unpleasant as long as you, as an author, feel it compelling..."

Sooo, did I just say that choice Bioware found utterly compelling was to paint a whole whitewashed world?
Certainly not.

And before everybody goes mad at me, and say wild irrelevant things because I'm trying to understand BW choices...
An' before I'm going to trip someone badly in a next post : I'm a rather tanned gal of arab/muslim cultural origin (to say it at very large), raised mostly in an European country.

I would also be the first to pre-order a game featuring a Fantasy universe hinting of historic world-wide inter-cultural exchanges, which would keep in touch with a few chosen elements of real world, the way the DAverse do (just for a bit of that "fleshed-out" feel).
I wrote one, times ago, because my boyfriend and I loved Tolkien's world, and we regretted its only southern people were (as usual) the bad ones siding with Sauron... And... We were also fed up with the usual "vanilla orient fantasy" full of cliché like the glib oriental shopkeeper (re-used infinitely) who just "looks" oriental because he seats on a few fancy cushions, wear a turban, smoke a hookah, and have a fat belly-dancer in tow...
We imagined tanned elves which lived in Ottoman gardens, beyond portal opening through whirlwind of sands (in the ruins of the old deserted part of an otherwise bustling port). Black sylvan elves (who looked like slender black people, not like drows) building up a great enchanted empire in a lush forest : They had a king who, like those of the old Dahomey (which served us as inspiration source), couldn't see the sea without loosing his magical powers... We made many other people in an overall D&D frame : elves, dwarves, humans, even monsters, inspired from cultures and ethnicity of the whole world and from our beloved Middle-Earth romantic spirit.
Not only it was fun to make, but it was also quite surprising to see how our mostly white D&D friend-players were eager to RP through those alternatively inspired fantasy ethnics and cultures, as long as they were well fleshed-out.
(Mmm... good times... t'was before we married and he went all complaining about *me* borrowing his computer, stealing his games, an' staying insanely late to write lengthy posts in english... using his internet connexion!)
That just needed to be said...
BW loves G.R.R. Martin's Fantasy (as do I) and they supposed --with every right-- that many other people did as well...
They wanted to emulate the same sort of Fantasy. Plus, they wanted to put a few elements of our real world in it to add a stronger feel of a "fleshed-out" world.
And, as...

The Hierophant wrote...

...I have little issue with Fereldan due to the fact that it's considered a back water country...

...That may be all the point... G.R.R. Martin's Fantasy is not whitewashed. It is dark.

In a dark world, people are usualy bogged down in limited POV, they indulge in many mostly two-sided conflicts (Mages vs Templars, Humans vs Elves, Qunaris vs Non-Qunaris, Casted dwarves vs Non-Casted dwarves, One Country vs It's next neighboring Country).
It has nothing to do with realism : as far as I know, peace, poesy and romantism are as much realistic than strife and sorrow.
It has everything to do with a design choice. And it is a valid one as any.

So, why nobody stays black when the Fantasy world grows dark?
Easy to figure : Just imagine that, instead of that ooold, long dead and forgiven, infamous rivalry between the old England and the old France (Normands invaders, papism, Napoleon, and stuff...)
--which BW actually used to flesh-out the whole dark mood between the country of Ferelden and Orlais--
The writers had portrayed your usual brave an' good an' free ferelden commoner spitting on those "Orlesian bstd" who dared invade, beat, rape, shock with their ugly fashion, suffocate with their stinkin' cheese, an' destroy his poor gaffer's ears through long exposures to their horrid accent, as a white man figuratively spitting on... errr... say... black Orlesian chevaliers? which, for that matter, wouldn't be Orlesian chevaliers at all, but... say... old Dahomey culture inspired warriors... (with equivalent obvious political and cultural *wrongs* than the Orlesians.)
Or would you like to imagine it the reverse way (black Fereldans/ white Orlesians)?
Personaly, I can already see THE FLAME it would produce on forums.
You may try any color combination through the major ethnic or cultural two-sided conflicts of  the DAverse... just to amuse yourself...
The only way to not hurt so badly anyone's feelings would be, as it as been said before by previous posters, to add more diversity in a same mixing ground (a hub) or to add "third parties" (refugees, foreign traders, orphans from foreign parents) but both solutions would detract from that dark, shut-minded world  where people keep consanguine to stick better with their atavistic beliefs and grudges and where nobody can easily escape the strict bi-polarization of conflicts.

The way I see it, BW first and foremost tried to stay very consistent with their choice of a mind-choking, conflict ridden, dark Fantasy world, while at the same time they cared to avoid that question : "Have you seen how they daresay those horrors about such or such ethnic?"... much more than this one : "Why is there so few under-represented ethnics in the DAverse?"
In this context, BW did us and itself the small favor of avoiding tokenism through NPCs. Good for me.
(But a last flake of it may yet have found its way into both CC's skin tone freedom of choice...)

Unless BW would like to make DA3's mood lighter and less conflictual, why would that change?

I'm all hopes, though, they will try to break a new ground on that matter in a future franchise.

Modifié par Dintonta, 21 juillet 2012 - 04:52 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Jade Empire didn't have a variety of ethnic groups. Did it make the game bad? Nope. It was a setting, so is Thedas, and it has far more diversity variety than JE had already. If DA 3 takes place in country with a certain ethnic real-world equivalent, then huzzah, that's fine. I just don't understand the Chex Mix party that people want. People didn't get around as much in a feudal society in real life, and in Thedas griffons have eaten most of the horses then killed the griffons so people likely travel even less.

[GodWood]

TommyServo wrote...
Shepard was written as potentially gay from the start. The precedent was set with Mass Effect 1. Femshep could identify as gay or bisexual and romance Liara or Kelly. Allowing Mshep to identify as gay or bi made that side of the coin consistent with the other. It also allowed for a more identifiable avatar and deeper roleplaying.

ME had 4-6 potential homosexual romances over the course of the trilogy. ME3 had two exclusively gay characters for people to romance.

And yet, you still complain that it's not good enough....

I've never seen anyone advocating for a BDSM relationship option,

I have.

or an incest option (apart from people building a strawman argument against gay romances, of course).

I did. I thought it would've been an interesting thing to roleplay.

But they are welcome to, and if Bioware deems it appropriate to the tone of their project, then great. That argument doesn't help your credibility though. It's irrelevant to the same sex romance topic.

It is not. Homosexual romances are not considered a potential option but rather an inherent neccessity within parts of this community on the grounds of equal representation. My point is it's nigh impossible to have all sexual identities represented so instead of trying to do so for the sake of pandering they should only be there if the plot and characters demand.

Still haven't grasped what my actual point I see.

I think I have. It seems as though your bias and your privilege,

Oy vey.

and I suppose your ability to "tell it like it is" lead you to conclude that if someone complains about a monolithically whitewashed popular medium,

No. Stop. This thread is not about the general representation of ethnicities in videogames as a whole and nor have my comments been in regards to videogames as a whole. Stop trying to piggy-back this issue on top of another.

This thread and my responses have been in regards to the representation of races within Dragon Age. 'Mass diversity' and 'equal racial representation' do not fit with the countries we have been to because it has already been established that Fereldan and Kirkwall are predominantly caucasion countries. Much like how a buttload of whites wouldn't make sense in JE because it was already established as a predominantly asian country.

and expresses a desire to see more progressive, diverse representation, and applauds the rare stories that do this - not because they are racist or "hate white people" but because, maybe it's nice to see a hero looking like them for once - they are a racist. I guess?

Praising a game because it has more of race X then race Y is racist.

Enjoying the game because the setting refreshing is not racism. Praising it for exploring the mythos and culture of something different is not racism.

But enjoying and/or praising the game simply because of the ethniticy of the cast, is, freaking, racist.

[Xilizhra]

ME had 4-6 potential homosexual romances over the course of the trilogy. ME3 had two exclusively gay characters for people to romance.

And yet, you still complain that it's not good enough....

Improvements, at least.

It is not. Homosexual romances are not considered a potential option but rather an inherent neccessity within parts of this community on the grounds of equal representation. My point is it's nigh impossible to have all sexual identities represented so instead of trying to do so for the sake of pandering they should only be there if the plot and characters demand.

All romances are "pandering." In fact, since they're made to elicit positive reactions from fans, all games period are "pandering." What Bioware can do is allow for as many sexual identities as can be commercially accepted, thus allowing for the maximum amount of people to enjoy the game. It just makes economic sense, along with the principle of the thing.

[AkiKishi]

GodWood wrote...

Praising a game because it has more of race X then race Y is racist.

Enjoying the game because the setting refreshing is not racism. Praising it for exploring the mythos and culture of something different is not racism.

But enjoying and/or praising the game simply because of the ethniticy of the cast, is, freaking, racist.

Minority logic.

"If you are a minority you can't be ist"

Women objectifying men, not sexist at all.

[Xilizhra]

BobSmith101 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Praising a game because it has more of race X then race Y is racist.

Enjoying the game because the setting refreshing is not racism. Praising it for exploring the mythos and culture of something different is not racism.

But enjoying and/or praising the game simply because of the ethniticy of the cast, is, freaking, racist.

Minority logic.

"If you are a minority you can't be ist"

Women objectifying men, not sexist at all.

Given that objectifications of men tend to focus on strength and power as opposed to helpless sexuality, I rather suspect it's less sexist. Certainly it's a less demoralizing form of such.

[AkiKishi]

Xilizhra wrote...
All romances are "pandering." In fact, since they're made to elicit positive reactions from fans, all games period are "pandering." What Bioware can do is allow for as many sexual identities as can be commercially accepted, thus allowing for the maximum amount of people to enjoy the game. It just makes economic sense, along with the principle of the thing.

Which is why I have grown to detest Bioware romances.

Romances should be about the story not "virtual wood". The more you make it a choice the less it's about the story.
Even though I hated the Liara ME3 romance from the perspective of Engineer Shepard. As Bob I acknowledge that her romance arc was a perfect backdrop. Compared to that (and Tali on Ranoch) the others come across as nothing but fan service.

[Xilizhra]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
All romances are "pandering." In fact, since they're made to elicit positive reactions from fans, all games period are "pandering." What Bioware can do is allow for as many sexual identities as can be commercially accepted, thus allowing for the maximum amount of people to enjoy the game. It just makes economic sense, along with the principle of the thing.

Which is why I have grown to detest Bioware romances.

Romances should be about the story not "virtual wood". The more you make it a choice the less it's about the story.
Even though I hated the Liara ME3 romance from the perspective of Engineer Shepard. As Bob I acknowledge that her romance arc was a perfect backdrop. Compared to that (and Tali on Ranoch) the others come across as nothing but fan service.

Alas, expecting people to be forced into one romance for plot's sake is kind of absurd. Personally, if they allowed each companion to have a fairly major plot role and tied the romance into it as something substantial, that could work, but many people complain about not being able to see all of a character's arc if they can't do it while non-romanced.

[AkiKishi]

Xilizhra wrote...
Alas, expecting people to be forced into one romance for plot's sake is kind of absurd. Personally, if they allowed each companion to have a fairly major plot role and tied the romance into it as something substantial, that could work, but many people complain about not being able to see all of a character's arc if they can't do it while non-romanced.

This is where our views differ. Chracters might be forced into a romance but people are not. I don't believe the games exist as some sort of personal fantasty for the player, but rather to tell the story of a character within an established world structure with it's own values etc.
 
I don't need to identify with a character to play them. Perhaps that comes from years of DMing I don't know.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 juillet 2012 - 02:58 .

[LobselVith8]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Jade Empire didn't have a variety of ethic groups. Did it make the game bad?

It was a game about non-white characters, which isn't typical of most Western games produced in Western countries. What's the problem with bringing forth diversity in a place like Kirkwall, which is supposed to be a trading hub and a commercial port along the Waking Sea? It don't see why some people act so indignant about the idea of having diversity in the narrative.

It seems to me like some people think marginalized fans should simply shut up and be grateful for what little they get, and I think that mentality is asinine.

[GavrielKay]

BobSmith101 wrote...
This is where our views differ. Chracters might be forced into a romance but people are not. I don't believe the games exist as some sort of personal fantasty for the player, but rather to tell the story of a character within an established world structure with it's own values etc.
 
I don't need to identify with a character to play them. Perhaps that comes from years of DMing I don't know.

It depends on the type of game for me.  If BioWare wants to promote the Dragon Age franchise as an RPG then I want to create the character and tell her story.  The game provides a framework and backdrop for my character.

To the extent that they manage to allow me to have my own character, I will find them successful in creating a "role playing" game.  To the extent the writers tell their own story through my character, I consider it detracting from the role playing.  It is a balance of course, no game can be completely free, but more freedom is better than less.  Otherwise they can call it an interactive movie and not a role playing game.

As for the world they create as a backdrop, I don't really get carried away by demanding that it be diverse or open to any sexuality.  Role playing can be about what your character would do in a world with little diversity or with oppressive views on sexuality.  However, as players we are also consumers and if they want to sell their game to us, they will need to take into account what worlds the players want to move around in.

[LobselVith8]

I recall this conversation happening in the "Lack of racial diversity" thread, and Maria bringing up the points about how the same complaints that people had over the lack of inclusion of people like them could be made for women in the medium of fantasy, as well as homosexuality.

Maria Caliban wrote...

LURadio wrote...

I love Stanley's quote, it sums it up perfectly, why exactly in a fantasy world is racial diversity necessary ?? 

To me, it's very obvious what's wrong with a world where there are only white people and non-humans. This is especially true when the author links non-humans to real world minorities.

It's something I dislike about World of Warcraft.

Human = European influences
Not human = Native American, Japanese, West African influences

It 'matters' because fantasy, like all other entertainment, is made for real world people. And like a great deal of entertainment, it's predominately white. Real people who aren't white read, watch, and play fantasy, and much of the time, they find worlds where people who look like them simply don't exist.

If the majority of fantasy didn't have any women, I wouldn't like it. The majority of fantasy doesn't have gay people, and I don't like that. My assumption is that if you're not white, you'd like to see stand ins for your racial group slaying dragons and rescuing princesses on occasion.

I think diversity is a worthy goal.

[Todd23]

Who would complain about a lack of inclusion for people like themselves if they could play as such a character? So long as you can be any race in DA3, I'm cool.