329 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Todd23 wrote...

Who would complain about a lack of inclusion for people like themselves if they could play as such a character? So long as you can be any race in DA3, I'm cool.

I prefer things not like my self. I can be myself any time I want after all.

I like stuff like Farscape.

[Dintonta]

Todd23 wrote...
Who would complain about a lack of inclusion for people like themselves if they could play as such a character?

Who would complain about a thing if such a thing wouldn't exist?
You know, I think I love this logic... I can rely on it in any topics and it is bound to remain undefeated for a very long time!

Modifié par Dintonta, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:14 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheStrand221 wrote...

Ah this thread again, the resistance to this issue never ceases to amaze me.

All I have to say is that arguments about Thedas being based on Medieval Europe are irrelevant, because that isn't an excuse for the situation. This argument, and even devs have repeated it, boils down to this:

"We chose to design a setting in such a way that it would preclude encountering non-whites except in the most extreme circumstances. There not being non-whites is consistent with the setting, therefore it isn't racist. Including non-whites would be tokenism."

How is it they don't see that the real issue was the original design choice? Why did they write this setting so that everyone is white? That's the root of the problem, not the skin tone of random NPCs placed with no reason.

There is no problem.
It only exist in your head (and of other who complain).

Weather TheDas is fantastical setting or not doesn't matter. It's is a rather primitive setting trying to feel believable. In a primitive world with no fast-travel methods there wont' be much mixing of races, cultures or ethnicities. IT's jsut common sense given everything we know about hte development of our world.

Now you can say "this is fantasy" but that is a BS excuse, even more BS than the excuse you call BS.
If you want the world ot  feel real ,you have to follow some common sense conventions,

Contrast this with Skyrim. It's set in the homeland of the Nords, based on Scandenavia, which is as white as it gets outside of an albino convention. Yet you frequently encounter characters of color. Is it immersion breaking? No. Does it spoil that epic Norse feel of the setting? No. Because the setting of Tamriel is written to support the idea. They're traders, or immigrants, or soldiers in an imperial army that draws from all corners of the land. It isn't tokenism and it improves the experience, it doesn't detract from it. All because the Elder Scrolls devs, way back in the early 90s, thought it would be cool to have more diversity in their setting.

Skyrim has teleporting left and right, skyships and faster travel.
TheDas doesn't.
You might say "why didn't they add that?". To which I ask - WHY SHOULD THEY?

You create the basic premise/feel you want the world to have and deal with the implications - you build on that. NOT the other way around.
Tamriel is Tamriel, TheDas is Thedas. Writers and developers have to have freedom to create and that includes also the freedom to NOT put something.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There is no problem.

I respectfully disagree. Our own history shows that even in such a setting, diversity would transpire in places like Kirkwall. Historical examples were provided time and again in similar threads where the lack of diversity in Thedas was brought up. If a place like Kirkwall is supposed to feel real, then it shouldn't be in a bubble.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Skyrim has teleporting left and right, skyships, and faster travel.

I don't recall anyone in Skyrim teleporting, I didn't see any skyships, and I distinctly recall horses and carriages being the typical mode of transportation.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Skyrim has teleporting left and right, skyships, and faster travel.

I don't recall anyone in Skyrim teleporting, I didn't see any skyships, and I distinctly recall horses and carriages being the typical mode of transportation.

Meant to write Tamriel, not Skyrim.
In previous Daggerfall games, in Morrowind, etc, you coud teleport from town to town.

[Dintonta]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Weather TheDas is fantastical setting or not doesn't matter. It's is a rather primitive setting trying to feel believable. In a primitive world with no fast-travel methods there wont' be much mixing of races, cultures or ethnicities. IT's jsut common sense given everything we know about hte development of our world.

Now you can say "this is fantasy" but that is a BS excuse, even more BS than the excuse you call BS.
If you want the world ot  feel real ,you have to follow some common sense conventions,

Sorry to jump on that (I thought I had more patience than I really have) but since that point have already been pressed over and over along this thread and continues to come back again and again, I feel I owe you a clarification :
It is rather true that in ancient times, people had less opportunity to mix on a rather large scale than they have today. (But not as true as you would think : some modern wars have created borderlines where people mixed and circulated freely before...) But to think they didn't mix at all, that no country in medieval Europe presented more than one ethnicity and/or religion, that no traders or travelers from foreign lands were ever spotted in remote villages, is blatantly wrong. Even if it's true that the Middle-Age which serves as an inspiration source to many Fantasy worlds, is, on this account, a regressive parenthensis in History, even if the North-Western Europe which is especially the source of this inspiration, was then especially insular, there was still enough travelers, new settlers (invading or peaceful), pilgrims, traders, and memories from even more ancient times (the Hellenistic kingdoms and the Roman Empire mostly) when the world was more open to exchanges, to justify that a game which would really been inspired by historical medieval times featured more than one skin color and cultural tradition.

Just to give you a few picks from countless examples :

In the French Jura mountains, not far from the Swiss border, which you may consider as a traditionally remote place (quite alike the Scottish Highlands with which it shares a very ancient celtic folklore), on top of a hill and in the middle of a spruce forest, there is a collapsed entrance to a cave which was called the "Saracens' Stairway" (not the same as the Pyrenean one), because there, a few centuries before Charlemagne, a community of people from North-Africa settled for a generation and excavated a very deep well.

A much more famous example : Ever heard of some Macedonian fellow who went east , with a rather massive bunch of comrades, long before the Middle-Age ever began? I may be mistaken, but I think he founded a few settlements on his way... to the place where sit now ther modern Pakistan... I really wonder how your 'common sense' explains how he could travel so far without even an airplane?

Representing ancient times such an extreme way has nothing to do with common sense or historical accuracy.

And if game devs or Fantasy authors were out for such historical accuracy, they might find that, on many other accounts (societal and cultural) they are very far from the truth.
I personally don't think they could be so ignorant or uncaring, that why I surmised in a previous post they had an entirely different reason to do so.

In hopes you will find in this post motivation to learn about real history...

Modifié par Dintonta, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:23 .

[AkiKishi]

Once upon a time there was this guy called William. He'd just aquired a country and a wanted to know who lived in it so he could tax them. He sent scribes to all corners gathering data and compiling it into a large book.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...
Look, it's real damned easy for white people to scoff at the notion of inclusivity and equality when WE don't have to worry about not being included or made to feel like we've got equal time and space allotted to us. 

The fact of the matter is, fantasy is not created in a vacuum.  It is not humanly possible to create a fantasy universe that is NOT informed in some fashion, to a certain degree, by the personal biases of human beings living in the real world.  Got that?  It just ain't possible.  Try not to think of a pink elephant.  It's the same problem.   Even fantasy that sets out to avoid racist tropes is de facto set within that framework, because no human being in this world can conceive of a non-racist world without arriving at that conception through the vehicle of their experience within the actual world we live in.

The point being, it is a waste of effort to talk about how fantasy is, well, fantasy; not real, not based on real things, not meant to be realistic, etc.  It is not an accident when a fantasy world is peopled almost entirely by white people, and any people of color--when there are any at all--are incidental.  That's not a white person attempting to be realistic to a medieval setting, or some other such nonsense, that's a white person not thinking that anyone other than white people will be consuming their creation, and also that only white people matter, as well as the extremely illogical and misguided notion that white people won't possibly be able to relate to any characters that aren't precisely identifiable with themselves, ethnically speaking.

Fantasy is dominated by white people writing for a presumed all-white
audience NOT because of any other reason but internalized prejudicial
thinking. 

Bulls***.
Utter, complete, 1000% BS.

That you cannot see any other reason that some racial prejudice speaks volume of just how prejudices you yourself are - because it shows your mental framework rather nicely.

People can write whatever they want for whatever reason they want. It's not up to you to deaalre, like a judge from on high, that their reasoning is just or not, or that they are lying or not.


Eather the world is populated completey by black people, yellow, white, religious or atheists - it doesn't matter.
If the writers jsut feels like writing it like that, then he should.
If he wants to get a feel for historical authenticity/beleviability - then he should.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dintonta wrote...
Sorry to jump on that (I thought I had more patience than I really have) but since that point have already been pressed over and over along this thread and continues to come back again and again, I feel I owe you a clarification :
It is rather true that in ancient times, people had less opportunity to mix on a rather large scale than they have today. (But not as true as you would think : some modern wars have created borderlines where people mixed and circulated freely before...) But to think they didn't mix at all, that no country in medieval Europe presented more than one ethnicity and/or religion, that no traders or travelers from foreign lands were ever spotted in remote villages, is blatantly wrong. Even if it's true that the Middle-Age which serves as an inspiration source to many Fantasy worlds, is, on this account, a regressive parenthensis in History, even if the North-Western Europe which is especially the source of this inspiration, was then especially insular, there was still enough travelers, new settlers (invading or peaceful), pilgrims, traders, and memories from even more ancient times (the Hellenistic kingdoms and the Roman Empire mostly) when the world was more open to exchanges, to justify that a game which would really been inspired by historical medieval times featured more than one skin color and cultural tradition.

The travelers merchants and others were a drop in the ocean and you know it.
And I know plenty of history, thank you very much.

And again - the spread and mixing depends on the setting, the development of nations, terrain, size of the world, etc, etc..

It's easy to write a fictional medieval-like word where there has ben no contact wahtsoever with other continents or other racial groups.

[Little Princess Peach]

Chiramu wrote...

The Thedas world would have to expand to include a lot of different ethnicities.

They could of course always change the Kossith to resemble more Asian people, otherwise the world map would have to grow bigger and we would need an adventuring character to get some Asian-esque companions :<.

in origins Jorry or gordy or whatever his name was looked asian to me

[The Hierophant]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Look, it's real damned easy for white people to scoff at the notion of inclusivity and equality when WE don't have to worry about not being included or made to feel like we've got equal time and space allotted to us. 

The fact of the matter is, fantasy is not created in a vacuum.  It is not humanly possible to create a fantasy universe that is NOT informed in some fashion, to a certain degree, by the personal biases of human beings living in the real world.  Got that?  It just ain't possible.  Try not to think of a pink elephant.  It's the same problem.   Even fantasy that sets out to avoid racist tropes is de facto set within that framework, because no human being in this world can conceive of a non-racist world without arriving at that conception through the vehicle of their experience within the actual world we live in.

The point being, it is a waste of effort to talk about how fantasy is, well, fantasy; not real, not based on real things, not meant to be realistic, etc.  It is not an accident when a fantasy world is peopled almost entirely by white people, and any people of color--when there are any at all--are incidental.  That's not a white person attempting to be realistic to a medieval setting, or some other such nonsense, that's a white person not thinking that anyone other than white people will be consuming their creation, and also that only white people matter, as well as the extremely illogical and misguided notion that white people won't possibly be able to relate to any characters that aren't precisely identifiable with themselves, ethnically speaking.

Fantasy is dominated by white people writing for a presumed all-white
audience NOT because of any other reason but internalized prejudicial
thinking. 

Bulls***.
Utter, complete, 1000% BS.

That you cannot see any other reason that some racial prejudice speaks volume of just how prejudices you yourself are - because it shows your mental framework rather nicely.

People can write whatever they want for whatever reason they want. It's not up to you to deaalre, like a judge from on high, that their reasoning is just or not, or that they are lying or not.

With regards to American/western society it's partly true. Why do you think the producers of Kung-Fu chose David

Carridine over Bruce Lee when the later wrote the premise for the series with himself as the lead? Or Last of the

Mohicans, Last Samurai, and recently with Hunger games with Katniss?(Tolkien's situation is complicated, but he was a critic of apartheid/white supremacy so he's aces in my book.)

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 juillet 2012 - 06:28 .

[Zkyire]

The Hierophant wrote...

With regards to American/western society it's partly true. Why do you think the producers of Kung-Fu chose David

Carridine over Bruce Lee when the later wrote the premise for the series with himself as the lead? Or Last of the

Mohicans, Last Samurai, and recently with Hunger games with Katniss?(Tolkien's situation is complicated, but he was a critic of apartheid/white supremacy so he's aces in my book.)

And all the east asian movies where the cast is completely east asian?

And all the south asian movies where the cast is completely south asian?

And all the african movies where the cast is completely african?

[Dintonta]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Once upon a time there was this guy called William. He'd just aquired a country and a wanted to know who lived in it so he could tax them. He sent scribes to all corners gathering data and compiling it into a large book.

... What is most interresting about this guy, however, was that he came from another close country... by ship...
That his forebears came themselves from yet another little more distant country... on ships...
That those forebears of him had fellow countrymen who went to most of the other continents... with their ships...
And that the country he just acquired, while rather insular, was already populated with people whose ancestors, like him, had settled here one day after they landed... their ships...
Of all those travelers of yore, none of them left in William's large book the bill for their spaceship booking, in hopes it could be deduced from their taxes...
I surmise they knew he would disallow it.

[CuriousArtemis]

*facepalm* They're not getting it, guys. They never will. They probably live daily lives where they themselves never encounter racism. They're probably the sort who think we live in a "post-racial" world. Yep.

ABANDON THREAD, ABANDON THREAD.

[The Hierophant]

Zkyire wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

With regards to American/western society it's partly true. Why do you think the producers of Kung-Fu chose David

Carridine over Bruce Lee when the later wrote the premise for the series with himself as the lead? Or Last of the

Mohicans, Last Samurai, and recently with Hunger games with Katniss?(Tolkien's situation is complicated, but he was a critic of apartheid/white supremacy so he's aces in my book.)

And all the east asian movies where the cast is completely east asian?

And all the south asian movies where the cast is completely south asian?

And all the african movies where the cast is completely african?

So you approve of people being passed over for roles due to  their race despite their acting capability, or casting a racially different lead to bring sympathy to another races plight?

[Zkyire]

motomotogirl wrote...

*facepalm* They're not getting it, guys. They never will. They probably live daily lives where they themselves never encounter racism. They're probably the sort who think we live in a "post-racial" world. Yep.

ABANDON THREAD, ABANDON THREAD.

The people who say that X city/country in Dragon Age should be more ethnically diverse based on its location or its position as a trading hub? Those arguments are legitimate.

Your argument however has absolutely nothing to do with this. What happens to you in your personal life has absolutely nothing whatsoever in any way, shape or form to do with the species, races, ethnicities and cultures that appear in any fictional story.

Modifié par Zkyire, 22 juillet 2012 - 06:54 .

[Zkyire]

The Hierophant wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

With regards to American/western society it's partly true. Why do you think the producers of Kung-Fu chose David

Carridine over Bruce Lee when the later wrote the premise for the series with himself as the lead? Or Last of the

Mohicans, Last Samurai, and recently with Hunger games with Katniss?(Tolkien's situation is complicated, but he was a critic of apartheid/white supremacy so he's aces in my book.)

And all the east asian movies where the cast is completely east asian?

And all the south asian movies where the cast is completely south asian?

And all the african movies where the cast is completely african?

So you approve of people being passed over for roles due to  their race despite their acting capability, or casting a racially different lead to bring sympathy to another races plight?

You mean like pretty much all non western movies do?

[GodWood]

motomotogirl wrote...
*facepalm* They're not getting it, guys. They never will.

Not if you keep not even trying to refute what's being said.

They probably live daily lives where they themselves never encounter racism. They're probably the sort who think we live in a "post-racial" world. Yep.

You seem to think racism never comes from a non-white source nor is it ever directed at white people. How self-absorbed.

Modifié par GodWood, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:01 .

[The Hierophant]

Zkyire wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

With regards to American/western society it's partly true. Why do you think the producers of Kung-Fu chose David

Carridine over Bruce Lee when the later wrote the premise for the series with himself as the lead? Or Last of the

Mohicans, Last Samurai, and recently with Hunger games with Katniss?(Tolkien's situation is complicated, but he was a critic of apartheid/white supremacy so he's aces in my book.)

And all the east asian movies where the cast is completely east asian?

And all the south asian movies where the cast is completely south asian?

And all the african movies where the cast is completely african?

So you approve of people being passed over for roles due to  their race despite their acting capability, or casting a racially different lead to bring sympathy to another races plight?

You mean like pretty much all non western movies do?

Wait, what's your argument? Are you saying that film studios in other countries only cast the majority race for their films, and that it's okay because everybody else is doing it, so it's okay for western media to do it despite the plethora of races that inhabit the region?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:17 .

[The Hierophant]

GodWood wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...
*facepalm* They're not getting it, guys. They never will.

Not if you keep not even trying to refute what's being said.

They probably live daily lives where they themselves never encounter racism. They're probably the sort who think we live in a "post-racial" world. Yep.

You seem to think racism never comes from a non-white source nor is it ever directed at white people. How self-absorbed.

Everyone is capable of racism, and that shouldn't be denied.

[Dintonta]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The travelers merchants and others were a drop in the ocean...

Some previous posters didn't ask more than the opportunity to play a character who'd have been part of such a drop. (I didn't ask for such a thing, but that's the reason why I cited travelers and merchants.)

...and you know it.

...As well as you know that I wasn't only speaking of travelers and merchants...
Compared to the very populated cultural hubs which flourishes around the Mediterranean Sea and along the path of both Alexander and the Caliphs, the more insular nations of the North-Western Europa were but a bucket in a well.

And I know plenty of history, thank you very much.

There is no such History set in stone, the work of historians is a dynamic one, and it is often hindered by the preconceptions of the time being.
I didn't mean to offend you, and I apologize for my snapy remark : My point was not that you didn't have interest in history but that I constantly see people sharing this interest, overlooking great parts of it.

And again - the spread and mixing depends on the setting, the development of nations, terrain, size of the world, etc, etc.. It's easy to write a fictional medieval-like word where there has ben no contact wahtsoever with other continents or other racial groups.

True and Fair... That was exactly my point in my first post : You can imagine wathever fiction you fancy and give it a likeness of medieval setting... but then, please don't come up with arguments such as your fancies are *more realistic* than those of others, in a topic where such considerations are not only irrelevant but false.

As I said in my first post, I don't think that BW fancy a *whitewashed* Thedas, or that they imagined their players massively fancied it.
I think what BW fancy is a Thedas ridden with conflicts between insular communities reminiscent of RL communities.
In this context, I think BW chose the route that looked the safest to them : To not intertwine Thedosian conflicts with RL ethnic sensibilities.
Paradoxically,  this 'safe' choice is bound to create frustrations too, by the lack of ethnic diversity.
It may be the less frustrating route of both, though.
That's the drawback of fancying such a conflictual world.

Modifié par Dintonta, 22 juillet 2012 - 09:31 .

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It's easy to write a fictional medieval-like word where there has ben no contact wahtsoever with other continents or other racial groups.

Yes, it is easy to conceive an entirely fictional world whose inhabitants are nearly all caucasian.

But that's the root of the problem.  With free reign to create a world however they pleased - one with dwarves, elves and magic - they chose to create a world that did not have diversity.  Whether they were accurate in their supposed emulation of medieval Europe or not doesn't even matter.  They didn't have to choose to create a fantasy Europe.  And having chosen to create a fantasy Europe, they didn't have to populate it with nearly all caucasian people.  They could have put in purple people and all we could do is decide if they managed to make a good game.

They are not writing a history book.  There was no necessity to recreate medieval Europe, and no necessity to create a fantasy Europe that had only white people in a major port city.  They chose to do those things.  Thus, they opened themselves up to criticism for having created a completely imaginary world that is populated with all kinds of fantasitcal creatures, but apparently not real diversity.

Yes, they had every right to do so.  Yes, they can create an entirely fictional world however they please and fill it with whoever they please.  But, as players, we can call them on it and point out that it didn't have to be that way, and might have been a better and more inclusive feeling game if they had made different choices.  That's how progress is made.

[AngryFrozenWater]

karushna5 wrote...

Please don't mistake this for what it isn't. But I would like to see more companions and just people in general who have a bit of ethnicity. I loved that Isabela was someone other than white and that they changed that, which is great, but er all colors of the rainbow?

It is a fantasy setting and I just feel that in such a setting there could be more varience in the NPCs and thus companions. If it is an option for our characters, shouldn't it be possible for swarthy elves and dwarves or even asian looking of all types as well? If everyone is fine with sexuality, which I love, it feels fine to put a medieval setting where people may look different than your typical medieval French, British, Spanish population.

That sounds reasonable. A lot of players like to identify with their PC. That would help them too. Maybe there are areas where it can be fitted in the lore. But even without that, such a customization is an optional part to which it is hard to have objections against.

[Dessalines]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It's easy to write a fictional medieval-like word where there has ben no contact wahtsoever with other continents or other racial groups.

Yes, it is easy to conceive an entirely fictional world whose inhabitants are nearly all caucasian.

But that's the root of the problem.  With free reign to create a world however they pleased - one with dwarves, elves and magic - they chose to create a world that did not have diversity.  Whether they were accurate in their supposed emulation of medieval Europe or not doesn't even matter.  They didn't have to choose to create a fantasy Europe.  And having chosen to create a fantasy Europe, they didn't have to populate it with nearly all caucasian people.  They could have put in purple people and all we could do is decide if they managed to make a good game.

They are not writing a history book.  There was no necessity to recreate medieval Europe, and no necessity to create a fantasy Europe that had only white people in a major port city.  They chose to do those things.  Thus, they opened themselves up to criticism for having created a completely imaginary world that is populated with all kinds of fantasitcal creatures, but apparently not real diversity.

Yes, they had every right to do so.  Yes, they can create an entirely fictional world however they please and fill it with whoever they please.  But, as players, we can call them on it and point out that it didn't have to be that way, and might have been a better and more inclusive feeling game if they had made different choices.  That's how progress is made.

I have been debating this issue for almost 20 years now, and I have realize a couple of things. 1)Most people read one history book, and that is which they form their opinion on.  There were black people in Europe, and they were not a drop in a bucket. 2)When you imagine a world filled with Desire Demons, Walking Dead, Elves, Dwarves, Quanari, but you have to asked by your fans to add ethnicity to your game, then you are still not a racists. Yes, it does not make Bioware a racist, and to call them a racist is silly. It is just means they have limited artistic vision.
How many Bioware writers are from other races or cultures?  I believe that Bioware is dedicated to making game more open to all of them. I remember about complaints about how your family members did not change the skin tone in the first Dragon Age. They changed it for Dragon Age 2.
1)My belief is that things will change when more people of color in the Western world are able to get more writings jobs. Yes, I will believe they will create diverse worlds like Shonda Rhimes instead of Tyler Perry. Just my two cents.