329 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

addiction21 wrote...

Neither Jade Empire or Dragon Age are ment to be accurate historical representations of real world locals.

Also, since it has allready turned into the typical childish sniping and bickering my recommendation is to

That is one awesome snail - possibly the best thing about this thread!

[Zkyire]

An easy way out of this is to simply petition Bioware to do the next DA game (after 3 because I believe it is set in Orlais. ie. France) to be in a northern Thedas country like Rivain.

[Todd23]

Dintonta wrote...

Todd23 wrote...
Who would complain about a lack of inclusion for people like themselves if they could play as such a character?

Who would complain about a thing if such a thing wouldn't exist?
You know, I think I love this logic... I can rely on it in any topics and it is bound to remain undefeated for a very long time!

 
But doesn't this logic applied to this thread conclude genocide?

[addiction21]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Neither Jade Empire or Dragon Age are ment to be accurate historical representations of real world locals.

Also, since it has allready turned into the typical childish sniping and bickering my recommendation is to

That is one awesome snail - possibly the best thing about this thread!

He is swesome but I disagree. The best thing about this thread are how so many believe ethinicity is restricted to skin color and it can not be show in any other way but what someones skin color is.

So I present the future of Thedas

[The Hierophant]

lol

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...


Look, it's real damned easy for white people to scoff at the notion of inclusivity and equality when WE don't have to worry about not being included or made to feel like we've got equal time and space allotted to us.  

The fact of the matter is, fantasy is not created in a vacuum.  It is not humanly possible to create a fantasy universe that is NOT informed in some fashion, to a certain degree, by the personal biases of human beings living in the real world.  Got that?  It just ain't possible.  Try not to think of a pink elephant.  It's the same problem.   Even fantasy that sets out to avoid racist tropes is de facto set within that framework, because no human being in this world can conceive of a non-racist world without arriving at that conception through the vehicle of their experience within the actual world we live in.

The point being, it is a waste of effort to talk about how fantasy is, well, fantasy; not real, not based on real things, not meant to be realistic, etc.  It is not an accident when a fantasy world is peopled almost entirely by white people, and any people of color--when there are any at all--are incidental.  That's not a white person attempting to be realistic to a medieval setting, or some other such nonsense, that's a white person not thinking that anyone other than white people will be consuming their creation, and also that only white people matter, as well as the extremely illogical and misguided notion that white people won't possibly be able to relate to any characters that aren't precisely identifiable with themselves, ethnically speaking.  (The same does not apparently hold true: publishers of various media don't apparently worry about whether PoC audiences will be able to relate to white protagonists.  Ultimately it is a very negative perception of white people's cognitive abilities, but try pointing this out to people who cling to "BUT IT'S A FANTASY!!!!!!!!" Here's a hint:  For this to be your primary, or only, defense of the whitewashing issue...well, that rather baldly illustrates how threatening you find the idea.

Fantasy is dominated by white people writing for a presumed all-white audience NOT because of any other reason but internalized prejudicial thinking.  There's a belief in the industry that white people won't be able to relate to black protagonists, and so on.  This is why the lead character in Hunger Games was whitewashed despite the fact that the book explicitly describes her as being, if not fully a person of color, at minimum biracial.  It's why book covers will whitewash prominent black characters.  Likewise, Dragon Age, being largely produced by white writers and developers, features an almost entirely white cast of characters, because the people involved in writing it probably simply didn't THINK about this particular issue, and people in marketing are probably plagued by the same racist misconceptions as are those involved in the movie and literature industries, insisting that they HAVE to do this because otherwise the poor, confused white people just won't be able to relate, and we CAN'T have that!  

This was a really great post, and made some excellent points. Thank you.

[Todd23]

A very long post at least.

[AkiKishi]

Dessalines wrote...
I have been debating this issue for almost 20 years now, and I have realize a couple of things. 1)Most people read one history book, and that is which they form their opinion on.  There were black people in Europe, and they were not a drop in a bucket. 2)When you imagine a world filled with Desire Demons, Walking Dead, Elves, Dwarves, Quanari, but you have to asked by your fans to add ethnicity to your game, then you are still not a racists. Yes, it does not make Bioware a racist, and to call them a racist is silly. It is just means they have limited artistic vision.
How many Bioware writers are from other races or cultures?  I believe that Bioware is dedicated to making game more open to all of them. I remember about complaints about how your family members did not change the skin tone in the first Dragon Age. They changed it for Dragon Age 2.
1)My belief is that things will change when more people of color in the Western world are able to get more writings jobs. Yes, I will believe they will create diverse worlds like Shonda Rhimes instead of Tyler Perry. Just my two cents.

The point of what I posted before which someone else clearly missed. Was that we have census information going back rather a long way. Outside of the Moors, it was very much a "drop in the bucket" as you put it.

All of which is irrelvent since Thedas is already established and you need a game reason to retcon it. Not someones political opinions.

[Zkyire]

Silfren wrote...

Fantasy is dominated by white people writing for a presumed all-white audience NOT because of any other reason but internalized prejudicial thinking.  There's a belief in the industry that white people won't be able to relate to black protagonists, and so on.  This is why the lead character in Hunger Games was whitewashed despite the fact that the book explicitly describes her as being, if not fully a person of color, at minimum biracial.  It's why book covers will whitewash prominent black characters.  Likewise, Dragon Age, being largely produced by white writers and developers, features an almost entirely white cast of characters, because the people involved in writing it probably simply didn't THINK about this particular issue, and people in marketing are probably plagued by the same racist misconceptions as are those involved in the movie and literature industries, insisting that they HAVE to do this because otherwise the poor, confused white people just won't be able to relate, and we CAN'T have that!  

You know, I'm getting very tired of attitudes like this.

You're insinuating that white people are inherently prejudiced and racist.

Stories out of the west are predominantly targeted at white people because in the West, white people are the majority. The same way if you had a movie made in east asia, you'd have an entire cast of east asians. There'd be no "diversity", there'd be no "inclusion". They'd make a story for the majority of people in their country. And you know what's great? Nobody complains.

Nobody.

People recognise "Oh this is an east asian story, set in east asia, targeted predominantly towards east asians".

White people try to do the exact same thing? "Oh you whites and your prejudice! Why are there so many white people in this game/movie? You're acting like racists."

This attitude is appearing over and over and over again, and it is sickening.

You're completely accepting of other races, ethnicities and countries having their own stories, but completely intolerant of white people having theirs.

Hell, we've even got posters in this thread now trying to claim that Europe was never fully white (with no proof shown) and to claim otherwise is apparantly racist of us.

Approaching this discussion from an in-game perspective, for in-game reasons about why X ethnicity is shown/not shown in Y parts of Thedas is perfectly fine, and there are plenty of arguments to support their inclusion. But turning around and claiming that white writers are basically racist because they didn't do it is not acceptable.

Modifié par Zkyire, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

motomotogirl wrote...

*facepalm* They're not getting it, guys. They never will. They probably live daily lives where they themselves never encounter racism. They're probably the sort who think we live in a "post-racial" world. Yep.

ABANDON THREAD, ABANDON THREAD.

Except that's not racism. Seriously.

You see it everyhwhere. That's your problem and the problem of people like you.
The strange notion that PC must be enforced everyhwere by some rigid formula, and faliure to comply is heresy racism.
Wihout even knowign the people who write/crete, you assign darker intentions and reasoning behind waht they write.

You don't have to like it that characters are not of your skin color.
But that doesn't make it racist.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dintonta wrote...
...As well as you know that I wasn't only speaking of travelers and merchants...
Compared to the very populated cultural hubs which flourishes around the Mediterranean Sea and along the path of both Alexander and the Caliphs, the more insular nations of the North-Western Europa were but a bucket in a well.

Nope.

And again - the spread and mixing depends on the setting, the development of nations, terrain, size of the world, etc, etc.. It's easy to write a fictional medieval-like word where there has ben no contact wahtsoever with other continents or other racial groups.

True and Fair... That was exactly my point in my first post : You can imagine wathever fiction you fancy and give it a likeness of medieval setting... but then, please don't come up with arguments such as your fancies are *more realistic* than those of others, in a topic where such considerations are not only irrelevant but false.

But they are not.
By making it feel more like real history nad real implications, it does make it more real.

And besides, it's easier on the resources.

In short there is absolutely NOTHING better about a high fantasy world where everyone mixes together. There is no objective "better". It's just a different take, a different flavor.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It's easy to write a fictional medieval-like word where there has ben no contact wahtsoever with other continents or other racial groups.

Yes, it is easy to conceive an entirely fictional world whose inhabitants are nearly all caucasian.

But that's the root of the problem.  With free reign to create a world however they pleased - one with dwarves, elves and magic - they chose to create a world that did not have diversity.

You are not making any sense. What is what you sut said if not diversity? It's just a differnet kind of diversity.

Whether they were accurate in their supposed emulation of medieval Europe or not doesn't even matter.  They didn't have to choose to create a fantasy Europe.

They didn't have to. But they did. Maybe the like that setting? So what?

And having chosen to create a fantasy Europe, they didn't have to populate it with nearly all caucasian people.  They could have put in purple people and all we could do is decide if they managed to make a good game.

They could have put in purple people. but that would make the setting..sillier, for the lack of a better word.

You are asking the wrong question - the question isn't "could they have done it differently". The question is "why should they?"

They are not writing a history book.  There was no necessity to recreate medieval Europe, and no necessity to create
a fantasy Europe that had only white people in a major port city.

They wanted to create a medievaly setting. SO WHAT?

They chose to do those things.  Thus, they opened themselves up to criticism for having created a completely imaginary world that is populated with all kinds of fantasitcal creatures, but apparently not real diversity.

And you choose to make this post, thus opening yourself to my criticism.
Doesn't matter what you write. I WILL find a flaw or something wrong with it. Because I can.

Yes, they had every right to do so.  Yes, they can create an entirely fictional world however they please and fill it with whoever they please.  But, as players, we can call them on it and point out that it didn't have to be that way, and might have been a better and more inclusive feeling game if they had made different choices.  That's how progress is made.

Bwahahahaha... Progress... Progress...:lol:

[LobselVith8]

Todd23 wrote...

A very long post at least.

It was addressing how many people seem to scoff at the issues that some of us care about when it comes to diversity, or seem to think that it doesn't matter. I brought up another post by Maria (on the prior page) who compared the concern over diversity to the similar issues about women wanting to be treated as equals and the inclusion of homosexuality; it boils down to people wanting narratives to be inclusive for them. For the same reasons that people want strong women or the inclusion of homosexuality, the same is true about diversity; Kirkwall would have made sense as a port for the Free Marches and the Waking Sea to have diversity. I don't see the problem; why does it become so difficult to grasp that people would want there to be diversity in the narrative?

I'm getting tired of people ignoring that marginalized people get marginalized all the time and treat it as though it isn't a big deal. We have The Warden with a white family regardless of his or her skin color, because the developers didn't bother to factor in non-white Wardens; we have Varric talking about a white Hawke for years, even if the protagonist is brown or black; the default skin color for protagonists is almost always white, whether it's Shepard or Hawke. The points that were brought up by Silfren are valid, and I don't see a point I'm denigrating them simply because they make some people feel comfortable.

Zkyrie wrote...

You're completely accepting of other races, ethnicities, and countries having their own stories, but completely intolerant of white people having theirs.

Is Dragon Age supposed to be a series exclusively for white people? Is it only intended for a white audience? I find it intolerant to exclude people from the narrative or marginalize them. There are stories in the West where non-white protagonists or characters are made white, from the fictional Prince of Persia, 30 Days of Night, The Last Airbender, and even the historical A Beautiful Mind; book covers that whitewash non-white protagonists and characters; or non-white groups being marginalized in stories.

You seem to be intolerant of the idea of diversity in the narrative. You seem to be unaware that "proof" about historical diversity has been provided time and again in threads where this issue was brought up. You seem to think that stories in the West should only cater to a white audience, and ignore everyone else. Honestly, I find your attitude to be distasteful. 

[AkiKishi]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Is Dragon Age supposed to be a series exclusively for white people? Is it only intended for a white audience? I find it intolerant to exclude people from the narrative or marginalize them. There are stories in the West where non-white protagonists or characters are made white, from the fictional Prince of Persia, 30 Days of Night, The Last Airbender, and even the historical A Beautiful Mind; book covers that whitewash non-white protagonists and characters; or non-white groups being marginalized in stories.

You seem to be intolerant of the idea of diversity in the narrative. You seem to be unaware that "proof" about historical diversity has been provided time and again in threads where this issue was brought up. You seem to think that stories in the West should only cater to a white audience, and ignore everyone else. Honestly, I find your attitude to be distasteful. 

And what do you think happens when Bollywood makes a retelling of a classic Western tale? Sometimes it's like people just go out of their way to find something to be offended about.

For the record I have seen no proof iv'e seen some individuals, but no ones provided anything like census data.
All I've seen so far would be like me claiming that Asia was full of white people because Marco Polo went there.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 23 juillet 2012 - 03:07 .

[wsandista]

Thedas features a population of mostly Caucasian people. If they want to feature people of another ethnicity, then they would either have to retcon the lore or introduce a new culture.

Anyways, neither will happen till they get the engine to handle darker skin-tones better.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I find it intolerant to exclude people from the narrative or marginalize them.

What people? For all you now, there aren't any black people in TheDas at all. Unless you're not reffering to fictional black people, but real one.

In which case how is that intorelant?

Or are you claiming that it's impossible to enjoy the game wihout there being plenty members of your specific race or creed?
How about protesting against God of War. there's onyl one character. He's white and male. Clearly no one can anjoy that game now!!!!

You are saying that every narrative MUST have representatives of every race/creed/whatever, otherwise it's racist?

[AkiKishi]

wsandista wrote...

Thedas features a population of mostly Caucasian people. If they want to feature people of another ethnicity, then they would either have to retcon the lore or introduce a new culture.

Anyways, neither will happen till they get the engine to handle darker skin-tones better.

Which is probably as much a reason as any.

[brushyourteeth]

I thought it made perfect sense for Ferelden's cultural landscape to look exactly as it did, but now that we're branching out I'd love to see some more ethnic diversity among humans. I loved Duncan's and Isabela's darker Rivaini skin and I was downright delighted to meet that Orlesian merchant in the Denerim market who (to me) looked quite Asian.

The DA team have the power to include characters and NPC's that physically represent some of our real-life cultural backgrounds, but we're setting ourselves up for disappointment if we're expecting to really find ourselves or our real-life heritage in-game. At the end of the day Thedas is not the real world and the team walks a very fine line by introducing real-life physical traits to the countries of Thedas. They can retcon all Tevinters into looking Asian, but that no more represents Asian culture than if they hadn't - in fact, they risk offending someone by projecting a fictional culture on a real-life ethnic group. Fereldan's are basically English - it's the default setting for a fantasy world. It's vanilla. There's nothing intrinsically racist about that - England just has the monopoly on medieval fantasy settings, and they just happen to be historically white.

A great start would have been to populate the Free Marches with a mozaic of races under one culture, as it's supposed to be loosely inspired by North America - but that ship has sailed.

So basically, the team is screwed and may have no way to make everyone happy. So to that end, I think it'd be interesting to hear some solutions from the people who are upset (and I understand why - I really do).

[Zkyire]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I thought it made perfect sense for Ferelden's cultural landscape to look exactly as it did, but now that we're branching out I'd love to see some more ethnic diversity among humans. I loved Duncan's and Isabela's darker Rivaini skin and I was downright delighted to meet that Orlesian merchant in the Denerim market who (to me) looked quite Asian.

The DA team have the power to include characters and NPC's that physically represent some of our real-life cultural backgrounds, but we're setting ourselves up for disappointment if we're expecting to really find ourselves or our real-life heritage in-game. At the end of the day Thedas is not the real world and the team walks a very fine line by introducing real-life physical traits to the countries of Thedas. They can retcon all Tevinters into looking Asian, but that no more represents Asian culture than if they hadn't - in fact, they risk offending someone by projecting a fictional culture on a real-life ethnic group. Fereldan's are basically English - it's the default setting for a fantasy world. It's vanilla. There's nothing intrinsically racist about that - England just has the monopoly on medieval fantasy settings, and they just happen to be historically white.

A great start would have been to populate the Free Marches with a mozaic of races under one culture, as it's supposed to be loosely inspired by North America - but that ship has sailed.

So basically, the team is screwed and may have no way to make everyone happy. So to that end, I think it'd be interesting to hear some solutions from the people who are upset (and I understand why - I really do).

Which is perfectly fine, in fact I'll be disappointed with Bioware if they didn't. The farther north in Thedas you go; the hotter it gets. The hotter it gets; the darker the skin tones will be. And seeing how Antiva is basically comparable to Spain, then that'd make Rivain comparable to Morocco or Tunisia (so out of Europe and into North Africa).

Having people of different real life races, ethnicities and equivelant skin tones is perfectly fine.  My personal problem with this is the idea that each should be equally represented in every single country on every single continent, whether it makes sense (very large distances, great oceans, expensive travel, dangerous travel etc) or not.

Ferelden would not make sense in any way to be "diverse".

But on the other hand, Tevinter would as they make slaves of everyone from any species, country, culture or whatever other group.

As would Antiva, because of its proximity to Rivain, and so on.

Modifié par Zkyire, 23 juillet 2012 - 04:20 .

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You are asking the wrong question - the question isn't "could they have done it differently". The question is "why should they?"

I don't know that they "should" do anything.  But I do know that peaceful social change happens by little nudges and leanings in the right direction.  We live in a world with suicide bombings, crazed gunmen and armed vigilantes.  If a game can portray a world where race has nothing to do with social status or mobility, maybe they can help people imagine that world.  And if you can spend 40 to 60 hours traipsing around in that world, maybe you start to internaltize just a tiny bit of that tolerance.

Certainly I don't think every fantasy story told needs to be about tolerance or diversity.  But fantasy is a genre where worlds are created out of nothing.  Why not make those worlds more inclusive than the real one?  Sometimes there are good story reasons, but not usually.

Star Trek got away with what is widely accepted as the first interracial kiss on TV.  Pushing the boundaries of current social prejudices can be a part of science fiction and fantasy.  Given free reign, why not imagine a world with fewer (or at least different) stereotypes?

I don't know where your fury or snark comes from though.  I just think BioWare made a decision and their customers have a right to critique them.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 23 juillet 2012 - 04:42 .

[AkiKishi]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You are asking the wrong question - the question isn't "could they have done it differently". The question is "why should they?"

I don't know that they "should" do anything.  But I do know that peaceful social change happens by little nudges and leanings in the right direction.  We live in a world with suicide bombings, crazed gunmen and armed vigilantes.  If a game can portray a world where race has nothing to do with social status or mobility, maybe they can help people imagine that world.  And if you can spend 40 to 60 hours traipsing around in that world, maybe you start to internaltize just a tiny bit of that tolerance.

Certainly I don't think every fantasy story told needs to be about tolerance or diversity.  But fantasy is a genre where worlds are created out of nothing.  Why not make those worlds more inclusive than the real one?  Sometimes there are good story reasons, but not usually.

Star Trek got away with what is widely accepted as the first interracial kiss on TV.  Pushing the boundaries of current social prejudices can be a part of science fiction and fantasy.  Given free reign, why not imagine a world with fewer (or at least different) stereotypes?

I don't know where your fury or snark comes from though.  I just think BioWare made a decision and their customers have a right to critique them.

Bit before my time this...

Uhuru (think that's right) is a part of the crew,she does an important job, she has a reason for being there because she is good at what she does.
What the people here are asking is the equivelent of having her appear on the Enterprise just so she can kiss Kirk. Maybe it's just me but I find that idea far more offensive.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You are asking the wrong question - the question isn't "could they have done it differently". The question is "why should they?"

I don't know that they "should" do anything.  But I do know that peaceful social change happens by little nudges and leanings in the right direction.  We live in a world with suicide bombings, crazed gunmen and armed vigilantes.  If a game can portray a world where race has nothing to do with social status or mobility, maybe they can help people imagine that world.  And if you can spend 40 to 60 hours traipsing around in that world, maybe you start to internaltize just a tiny bit of that tolerance.

Soo...the "for freedom and tolerance" line
Excuse me, I'm a grown man. I don't need my Little Pony to know that friendship is good.
I need Political Correctness shoved into my face even less.

The next person trying to ram tolerance in my face is gonna get a fistfull of "tolerance of physical laws of collision" in his.

Certainly I don't think every fantasy story told needs to be about tolerance or diversity.  But fantasy is a genre where worlds are created out of nothing.  Why not make those worlds more inclusive than the real one?  Sometimes there are good story reasons, but not usually.

Inclusiveness is the eye of the beholder (in this case).
I say again - go stand on a soap box and capaign agaisnt all games that have only one character to play. Aren't they far more "exclusive"?

[brushyourteeth]

Zkyire wrote...

An easy way out of this is to simply petition Bioware to do the next DA game (after 3 because I believe it is set in Orlais. ie. France) to be in a northern Thedas country like Rivain.

Actually the next DA game is going to feature most of known Thedas - Fereldan, Orlais, the Free marches, Nevarra, and even the southern tips of Antiva and the Tevinter Imperium. Everywhere except the far north. Check it out. 

So I totally agree. As we move further north it would be awesome to see some new ethnicities in Thedas. And with the warm climates up north it totally makes sense. 

[GavrielKay]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Uhuru (think that's right) is a part of the crew,she does an important job, she has a reason for being there because she is good at what she does.
What the people here are asking is the equivelent of having her appear on the Enterprise just so she can kiss Kirk. Maybe it's just me but I find that idea far more offensive.

The role of communications officer was integral to the story, that it be filled by a young black woman was not.  What it was however, was a bold move to show not only a woman in an important role on the bridge of military vessel, but a black woman to boot.  It was a nice move on their part to invent a future where the prejudices of the time (1960's) had been overcome.  At the time it was very controversial.

What some of the people on here are asking is for fantasy worlds which are created wholesale from the imaginations of people to maybe not be 95% caucasian, 95% of the time.  I don't think fantasy worlds should be an even mix of every conceivable player race, but if you're going to invent a world for thousands of people to explore, there's no reason why it HAS to be nearly all caucasian either.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 23 juillet 2012 - 06:30 .

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Excuse me, I'm a grown man. I don't need my Little Pony to know that friendship is good.
...
The next person trying to ram tolerance in my face is gonna get a fistfull of "tolerance of physical laws of collision" in his.

Apparently you do need that My Little Pony. 

How on earth did you manage to get so worked up about the idea of having more racial diversity in Dragon Age that you start talking about punching people?