63 réponses à ce sujet

[1483749283]

andocrack wrote...

It's annoying to see characters you think will have something valuable to say, only to have them talk cryptically and disappear. If DA3 doesn't address any lingering questions, then what's the point of playing it? The game really needs to resolve them because I don't think the series can attract a new audience or even hold its current one by coasting through like DA2 did.

The way I see it, Mass Effect had less loose ends to tie up, and Bioware couldn't deliver. They improved it and I'm satisfied enough, but even with their second chance, they still decided to just skip over a lot of the details and leave it at that.

I agree that just looking at how the traffic on this board has died down, the DA series seems in danger. The next game needs to garner much better reception for the series to be able to continue.

IMHO DA2 had a terrific story. I actually think DA2's biggest problems were graphics-related: the character models seemed a downgrade in detail and quality from origins and the environment reuse hurt (though I didn't mind it too much). That and also very strange difficulty balancing (ridiculously easy on normal on one end, but with too many sadistic features like those rogues on the hardcore/nightmare end).

[FieryDove]

I want to know more about the black city...or visit it. And what is Flemeth...that's all.

[Dave of Canada]

Pausanias wrote...

[*]What is the black city and what is its relation to Arlathan.

Considering how central the Black City and Arlathan are to the cultures and faiths of Thedosian people, I doubt we'd get answers. Perhaps we'll find hints and we can piece together an image but I doubt we'll get the full story.

Will the Morrigan/Flemeth/Old God Baby conflict actually see any resolution or will it just keep on being mysterious.

They'll answer the god baby portion in DA3, almost guaranteed. They won't risk dragging this out for next gen.

Why do old gods/archdemons turn into look lke dragons when they become archdemons, when there are also dragons that are not archdemons.

We do know that Old Gods are capable of transmiting messages to people, least that's what Legacy's finale implies. Dragons seem more like wild animals, dragon cults don't really "talk" to them and the dragon mostly just gets worshipped.

The key difference being that dragons also resided in the Silent Grove while Archdemons reside underground, something is definitely up.

What is the source of the corruption and what is the song that they sing prior to being tainted.

Legacy shows a magister being corrupted and "singing" a similar song which influences the Darkspawn and Grey Wardens alike, so perhaps Chantry lore isn't too far off.

Is there anything to Andraste, is she an old god baby, and is there any real power to her or is she just a myth.

Doubt we'll ever know. Once again, importance to faith in Thedosian society. Andraste is a messiah figure and we don't need to know her true relationship with the world.

What is the relationship between demonic power and darkspawn power. This was the subject of Avernus's research. Are they mutually exclusive or do they intersect somehow. Will something come of their union.

Avernus research pointed out that Darkspawn corruption is foreign to demons of the fade, they don't understand it and that's why Avernus sees strength in it. Pretty much the opposite of intersecting.

Is there a grand designer of the darkspawn cycle or is it some kind of freakish but naturally occurring physical property of Thedas.

The Darkspawn were probably originally engineered, possibly by the Old Gods or someone else involved. However, they're mostly a force of nature now rather than some grand pawn.

Perhaps that's what the mastermind desired, however.

My biggest concern is that compared to these questions, the entire axis of the mages vs. templar wars seems rather tiresome and over-explored...

I'm of the opposite, I'm more interested in human conflicts where people fight each other for their beliefs and faith rather than having some fantastical elements which take away from the conflict.

The Mage/Templar conflict--at the very moment--isn't even in it's adolescence.

I am not particularly excited about hearing more argumentation along these lines, more discussion of mages' need for freedom or Templars' desire to protect the innocent, as I do believe this particular issue has been beaten to death by dragon age 2 and surrounding novels.

However the war following it will influence much more than just that, though.

Will mages fall onto blood magic and show themselves as the figures which the Templar point them out to be? Will kings and queens try to control the mages or fall in line with the Templar to have "public" approval? Will Templar--in their paranoia--begin becoming public threats? How will the Orlesian civil war work alongside this? Will people throw their lots in one side or another? Will Nevarra take it's chance to strike at the weakened Orlais?

[Xilizhra]

Doubt we'll ever know. Once again, importance to faith in Thedosian society. Andraste is a messiah figure and we don't need to know her true relationship with the world.

I disagree strongly; this is information we should know most of all. It'd be fascinating.

[Sisterofshane]

Xilizhra wrote...

Doubt we'll ever know. Once again, importance to faith in Thedosian society. Andraste is a messiah figure and we don't need to know her true relationship with the world.

I disagree strongly; this is information we should know most of all. It'd be fascinating.

I agree with this.  I would much rather know more about Andraste than have some great reveal about the nature of the Maker.

[Xilizhra]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Doubt we'll ever know. Once again, importance to faith in Thedosian society. Andraste is a messiah figure and we don't need to know her true relationship with the world.

I disagree strongly; this is information we should know most of all. It'd be fascinating.

I agree with this.  I would much rather know more about Andraste than have some great reveal about the nature of the Maker.

Well, I want that too. If the Maker actually exists, we should just figure it out already.

[1483749283]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Will mages fall onto blood magic and show themselves as the figures which the Templar point them out to be? Will kings and queens try to control the mages or fall in line with the Templar to have "public" approval? Will Templar--in their paranoia--begin becoming public threats? How will the Orlesian civil war work alongside this? Will people throw their lots in one side or another? Will Nevarra take it's chance to strike at the weakened Orlais?

This type of question I feel has already been amply covered (really beaten to death, I think) on a much smaller scale in Kirkwall (DA2) and in Asunder. To reexamine the same questions just with French people and a larger playing field is a bore in my opinion.

Bring on the answers to the REAL questions about the gods, elves, archdemons, and the supernatural, I say!

It's not that I would object to what you say. It's that if DA3 covers *only* the politics and doesn't give at least *some* answers to the supernatural plot lines, I would be disappointed.

Modifié par Pausanias, 19 juillet 2012 - 07:02 .

[Silfren]

Pausanias wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The intelligence factor is rather beside the point.  Intelligent or not, dragons that become archdemons are NOT just ordinary dragons that have the misfortune of becoming tainted.  You're forgetting that darkspawn are specifically drawn to the particular "Old God" dragons through the Calling.  Not just any dragon produces the instinctual drive that pushes darkspawn to dig for centuries until they come across the Song's source.  You're also forgetting that tainted dragons are thralls to the darkspawn and the taint.  They don't suddenly "awaken" and become the commanders of a unified darkspawn army and wage a campaign against the surface world.  Only the "Old God" dragons manage that. 

The dragon creatures that the darkspawn corrupt into archdemons could turn out to be something other than the Old Gods they are believed by the Chantry and co. to be, but they are definitely not just your garden variety dragon.  Something about them is unique.

I edited the top post to reflect this discussion... 

I think the main three questions about old gods/archdemons that have to be answered at a minimum are:

• Why do they look like dragons when there are also ordinary dragons.
• Are they noncommunicative because they are as "dumb" (or primal/instinctive) as the darkspawn, or merely because they choose not to speak with surface dwellers. If they are inherently noncommunicative, were they also noncommunicative prior to receiving the taint.
• If the old gods are free of the taint prior to encountering the darkspawn, what is the song that they sing and why is it that the darkspawn are drawn to it above everything else.

Indeed, #3 is the primary mystery I'd like to see explored further and eventually resolved.  The lore we have holds that the Old Gods were imprisoned by the Maker, and are awakened when found by darkspawn, apparently becoming instantly tainted and disfigured into archdemons when that happens.  This is the Chantry's dogma on the subject, at least, and it appears that the Grey Wardens accept this, at least to a point. 

We know that the darkspawn are compelled by what the Grey Wardens refer to as the Calling--it is something that any tainted creature which survives long enough will eventually succumb to.  We also know that lyrium sings, and that something about red lyrium can seemingly inflict a Calling-like compulsion onto people affected by it.  And of course, lyrium is intricately connected to the Fade. 

So, ultimately, there is SOME kind of interweaving connection betweeen darkspawn, Old Gods/archdemons, the Calling, the Taint, lyrium, and the Fade.  WTF is it?

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I want that too. If the Maker actually exists, we should just figure it out already.

Then that'd be the total opposite of what the writers want. Their relationship with in-game religion mirrors reality where these questions cannot be answered.

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...
I'm of the opposite, I'm more interested in human conflicts where people fight each other for their beliefs and faith rather than having some fantastical elements which take away from the conflict.

The Mage/Templar conflict--at the very moment--isn't even in it's adolescence.

I'm with you, in that I find the human conflict between mages and templars and their respective supporters by far the most interesting aspect of the series.  It isn't that I don't find the rest of the story compelling.  But Bioware did an excellent job of creating a wonderfully complex moral conflict in the mage/templar drama.  And I'm surprised at how often people say the conflict has been overdone, beaten to death, etc.  It hasn't been beaten to death at all--Origins introduced the conflict to us, but without it being a main or even a secondary story; it was truly only introduced in DA1.  DA2 showed us the conflict coming to a bloody head, precipitating a war.

I don't think anyone could accurately or fairly accuse the story of being overdone until the end of DA3, but even then, really, DA2 only gave us the prequel to the true conflict, while making it clear that DA3 is where the full story will be addressed. 

If they're still telling the story in DA4, then it'll be overdone.  Right now, it's only getting underway.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I want that too. If the Maker actually exists, we should just figure it out already.

Then that'd be the total opposite of what the writers want. Their relationship with in-game religion mirrors reality where these questions cannot be answered.

You mean they can't be answered right this minute. I heartily disbelieve in the idea that anything is permanently impossible to know with the right clarification of vision.

[Mike3207]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dragon Age is not a trilogy, and it does not have a 'central mythos', so it doesn't need to rush to solve any mysteries quite yet.

Also, questions are interesting and answers are boring. Mystery is what keeps people interested.

Dragon Age will end up a trilogy if DA3 bombs the way DA2 did. A lot will depend on how DA3 does-commercial success and it will warrant further games.

[BouncyFrag]

Even though DA2 was disappointing in regards to addressing the OP's topics, Bioware is in a position to 'put things right' in DA3 with this rich bounty of intriguing plot points. If they can do this *crosses fingers on both hands* the Dragon Age world need not only be limited to a trilogy....just as long as they don't get it in their heads to make another mmorpg.

[leighzard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I want that too. If the Maker actually exists, we should just figure it out already.

Then that'd be the total opposite of what the writers want. Their relationship with in-game religion mirrors reality where these questions cannot be answered.

You mean they can't be answered right this minute. I heartily disbelieve in the idea that anything is permanently impossible to know with the right clarification of vision.

I agree with Dave here.  I doubt it's possible to truly know the nature of god (the Maker) in the DA universe, just as it is in the real world. 

It's also more interesting not to have a definitive answer.  If the Maker descended to Thedas tomorrow and declared that mages were his favored children it would be boring - end of story, the Maker has declared it so.   The unknowableness (probably not a real word) is what makes issues surrounding the Maker interesting.  What people believe directly influences the course of Thedas in a way that knowing wouldn't. 

And here's my two cents on the Black City, which is related.  I'd also prefer not to have the answer to this question as well.  I see the Black City as akin to the parable of the Tower of Babel.  It's a warning, a testetment to why you shouldn't try to know the Maker: attempt such a thing and you will be cast out.  It's also rationale used by the Chantry and dominant culture in Thedas to repress mages, since they supposedly caused man's "Fall," much in the same way that Eve's causing man's fall in the Garden of Eden has been used in the past to rationalize repressing women.  

Of course, there are plenty of other questions I do want answers to, but I don't think we'll get them for these.   Or at least I hope we won't.

Edit: There may be parallels to other cultures as well, but I just went with what I'm most familiar with, being Christian mythology.

Modifié par leborum, 20 juillet 2012 - 01:03 .

[Xilizhra]

It's also more interesting not to have a definitive answer. If the Maker descended to Thedas tomorrow and declared that mages were his favored children it would be boring - end of story, the Maker has declared it so. The unknowableness (probably not a real word) is what makes issues surrounding the Maker interesting. What people believe directly influences the course of Thedas in a way that knowing wouldn't.

I don't know. If the Maker could be shown not to exist, I believe the consequences for Thedas would be very interesting indeed, considering how many people would refuse to believe that.

And here's my two cents on the Black City, which is related. I'd also prefer not to have the answer to this question as well. I see the Black City as akin to the parable of the Tower of Babel. It's a warning, a testetment to why you shouldn't try to know the Maker: attempt such a thing and you will be cast out. It's also rationale used by the Chantry and dominant culture in Thedas to repress mages, since they supposedly caused man's "Fall," much in the same way that Eve's causing man's fall in the Garden of Eden has been used in the past to rationalize repressing women.

In other words, two-thirds of it is a despicable probably-lie. I would very much like to see this disproven when the time comes.

[leighzard]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's also more interesting not to have a definitive answer. If the Maker descended to Thedas tomorrow and declared that mages were his favored children it would be boring - end of story, the Maker has declared it so. The unknowableness (probably not a real word) is what makes issues surrounding the Maker interesting. What people believe directly influences the course of Thedas in a way that knowing wouldn't.

I don't know. If the Maker could be shown not to exist, I believe the consequences for Thedas would be very interesting indeed, considering how many people would refuse to believe that.

  It's near about impossible to prove that something doesn't exist.  So I suspect very much that people would refuse to believe it, and be justified in doing so.  And actually, that conflict has potential.  Andrastians against scholars claiming to have evidence disproving the makers existence, or finding an artifact that drastically changes what's been assumed as fact for centuries about Andraste.  The Urn of Sacred Ashes could be that catalyst (ugh, that word), after Leliana led Chantry scholars back to investigate, but I haven't heard anything coming of it yet.

And here's my two cents on the Black City, which is related. I'd also prefer not to have the answer to this question as well. I see the Black City as akin to the parable of the Tower of Babel. It's a warning, a testetment to why you shouldn't try to know the Maker: attempt such a thing and you will be cast out. It's also rationale used by the Chantry and dominant culture in Thedas to repress mages, since they supposedly caused man's "Fall," much in the same way that Eve's causing man's fall in the Garden of Eden has been used in the past to rationalize repressing women.

In other words, two-thirds of it is a despicable probably-lie. I would very much like to see this disproven when the time comes.

Lying requires intent to deceive, which I don't think is there.  The legend surrounding the Black City at its core serves as an explanation for a natural phenomenon (inasmuch as the Fade can be considered "natural"), which is clearly visible on the horizon from anywhere in the Fade.  As far as it being despicable, I'm not suggesting it was engineered by a group of Andrastians sitting around trying to come up with a plausible reason for limiting mages power so that Tevinter could never happen anywhere else.  It seems more like a small piece of a system of beliefs; a piece that radical individuals might focus on to justify their beliefs.  Is the purpose of Circles to corale and keep tabs on mages and stifle them, or do Circles protect mages not only from being preyed upon by spirits as well as other humans that might wish them harm?  I don't know.  And I'm guessing from the DA2 endgame that we aren't meant to know.  We can interpret the in-game political situation in many different ways as do the characters who inhabit that universe.  The faction holding power determines how Andrastrian mythology is used and the game gives us the option to chose who that is.

[Dintonta]

leborum wrote...

...or finding an artifact that drastically changes what's been assumed as fact for centuries about Andraste.  The Urn of Sacred Ashes could be that catalyst (ugh, that word), after Leliana led Chantry scholars back to investigate, but I haven't heard anything coming of it yet.

If you have both Lelianna and Oghren when your warden get a pinch of Andraste's ashes, the dwarf make a very interresting remark to tone down Leli's enthusiasm : Something like he feels lyrium in the walls of the temple of a purity such like he never felt in his whole life (even if by that time he has already seen the Anvil of the Void...)
He explains that such lyrium can change the very nature of what is near it...

Modifié par Dintonta, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:26 .

[Sisterofshane]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I want that too. If the Maker actually exists, we should just figure it out already.

Then that'd be the total opposite of what the writers want. Their relationship with in-game religion mirrors reality where these questions cannot be answered.

I agree with you on this one Dave.  There are certain parallels to unanswerable questions here in reality that, if they DO try to explain, will probably end up being a huge let down.  Maybe ME3 ruined me, but lately I've been thinking that there are times when things are better left unexplained.  There's nothing to draw me to a fictional world if there isn't a little bit of mystery left to discuss.

So let them tell me about the real Andraste, how Arlathan really fell, or even how the first Darkspawn came into being.  As for the maker and the existence of the fade and Thedas, I'd rather it be kept ambiguous. 

[DPSSOC]

Dintonta wrote...

leborum wrote...

...or finding an artifact that drastically changes what's been assumed as fact for centuries about Andraste.  The Urn of Sacred Ashes could be that catalyst (ugh, that word), after Leliana led Chantry scholars back to investigate, but I haven't heard anything coming of it yet.

If you have both Lelianna and Oghren when your warden get a pinch of Andraste's ashes, the dwarf make a very interresting remark to tone down Leli's enthusiasm : Something like he feels lyrium in the walls of the temple of a purity such like he never felt in his whole life (even if by that time he has already seen the Anvil of the Void...)
He explains that such lyrium can change the very nature of what is near it...

Ah but the Ashes are a purifying force (if you hold them to be divinely blessed) so it becomes a question of did the Lyrium create the Ashes or did the Ashes purify the lyrium.

[Plaintiff]

Mike Smith wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dragon Age is not a trilogy, and it does not have a 'central mythos', so it doesn't need to rush to solve any mysteries quite yet.

Also, questions are interesting and answers are boring. Mystery is what keeps people interested.

Dragon Age will end up a trilogy if DA3 bombs the way DA2 did. A lot will depend on how DA3 does-commercial success and it will warrant further games.

DA2 was commercially successful. It made a profit.

Even if you were right (you're not, but let's pretend), DA3 is not required to answer all the current questions, and answering them would not serve to make the game more successful.

[Ophir147]

Questions are easy. Questions can make your game a fan favorite, one that people will already be nostalgic about five years later. Questions... can make some of the best games of all time.

Answers... not so much.

[Todd23]

1. Old Gods can take any form. Why not the biggest, most impressive, and most powerful one in Thedas?
2. The taint makes them go mad, and they do speak, just only to darkspawn.
3. The "song" they sing is a naturally generated sound that normally no one would be able to hear. However, the taint was created to tune into it in a way that makes it unresistably alluring.

[Dintonta]

DPSSOC wrote...

Dintonta wrote...

leborum wrote...

...or finding an artifact that drastically changes what's been assumed as fact for centuries about Andraste.  The Urn of Sacred Ashes could be that catalyst (ugh, that word), after Leliana led Chantry scholars back to investigate, but I haven't heard anything coming of it yet.

If you have both Lelianna and Oghren when your warden get a pinch of Andraste's ashes, the dwarf make a very interresting remark to tone down Leli's enthusiasm : Something like he feels lyrium in the walls of the temple of a purity such like he never felt in his whole life (even if by that time he has already seen the Anvil of the Void...)
He explains that such lyrium can change the very nature of what is near it...

Ah but the Ashes are a purifying force (if you hold them to be divinely blessed) so it becomes a question of did the Lyrium create the Ashes or did the Ashes purify the lyrium.

Darn, didn't think about that! *facepalm*
Will we forever be stuck behind that old storry of chicken and egg? *double-facepalm*

Wait! We could also imagine that the Maker may well be, for all we know, some sort "self-awareness" of the whole DAverse Lyrium (a bit like the "Stone" seems like a self-awareness of the material stone, to the dwarves).

If so, Lyrium as a whole = Maker who created both the world and Andraste...
...Lyrium wins! Hehe... what do say of that?

Modifié par Dintonta, 21 juillet 2012 - 05:43 .

[DPSSOC]

Dintonta wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Dintonta wrote...

leborum wrote...

...or finding an artifact that drastically changes what's been assumed as fact for centuries about Andraste.  The Urn of Sacred Ashes could be that catalyst (ugh, that word), after Leliana led Chantry scholars back to investigate, but I haven't heard anything coming of it yet.

If you have both Lelianna and Oghren when your warden get a pinch of Andraste's ashes, the dwarf make a very interresting remark to tone down Leli's enthusiasm : Something like he feels lyrium in the walls of the temple of a purity such like he never felt in his whole life (even if by that time he has already seen the Anvil of the Void...)
He explains that such lyrium can change the very nature of what is near it...

Ah but the Ashes are a purifying force (if you hold them to be divinely blessed) so it becomes a question of did the Lyrium create the Ashes or did the Ashes purify the lyrium.

Darn, didn't think about that! *facepalm*
Will we forever be stuck behind that old storry of chicken and egg? *double-facepalm*

Wait! We could also imagine that the Maker may well be, for all we know, some sort "self-awareness" of the whole DAverse Lyrium (a bit like the "Stone" seems like a self-awareness of the material stone, to the dwarves).

If so, Lyrium as a whole = Maker who created both the world and Andraste...
...Lyrium wins! Hehe... what do say of that?

Well in Awakening Justice discribes lyrium as "singing" which would seem to put it more in tune with the Old Gods, who are directly opposed to the Maker, with Red Lyrium being tainted and it's song causing people to go mad.  So if Lyrium is imbued with some kind of divine self awareness it would seem more likely to come from them and would therefore corrupt the ashes rather than make them into magical healy goodness.  This would actually further support the case for the Ashes since their pressence, and their being blessed by the Maker, has actually driven the Old God's pressence out of the surrounding lyrium which is why it's so pure.  This would also explain why the High Dragon wants them defiled.

Although Andraste being blessed by lyrichlorians might account for the speculation that she was a Mage since lyrium is magic and if it were imbued with the self awareness of the Maker could allow a non-mage to access magelike abilities well beyond the powers of even the magisters.

[Dintonta]

DPSSOC wrote...
[...]
Well in Awakening Justice discribes lyrium as "singing" which would seem to put it more in tune with the Old Gods, who are directly opposed to the Maker, with Red Lyrium being tainted and it's song causing people to go mad.  So if Lyrium is imbued with some kind of divine self awareness it would seem more likely to come from them and would therefore corrupt the ashes rather than make them into magical healy goodness.  This would actually further support the case for the Ashes since their pressence, and their being blessed by the Maker, has actually driven the Old God's pressence out of the surrounding lyrium which is why it's so pure.  This would also explain why the High Dragon wants them defiled.

Mmh... Don't forget that the Maker itself seems to have a "musical ear". After all, it's by her song that Andraste caught its attention... That why, well, the Chantry is called Chantry.
Maybe the Lyrium, the Old Gods and the Maker have some sort of connection, like a gospel singers band...
I didn't played through DA2, but from what I've read on the forums, Red Lyrium seems more like a corruption of the Lyrium, a bit like the Taint which, when corrupting an Old God, spawns a Blight. The first time you hear the Archdemon voice, in the Joining, its quite nightmarish, it's only after indulging into madness that people find it attractive. A bit like a tainted song for tainted ears...

Although Andraste being blessed by lyrichlorians might account for the speculation that she was a Mage since lyrium is magic and if it were imbued with the self awareness of the Maker could allow a non-mage to access magelike abilities well beyond the powers of even the magisters.

Yes! Lyrichlorians, that was exactly what I had in mind! That would explain many things :
Old Gods are high-dragons with much more of them than your regular high-dragon.
And there is naturally the dark side of it : Red Lyrium...
Now, it gives you two groups of "lyrichlorians imbued" high-dragons : The jedi high-dragons and the sith high-dragons.
In the Dalish lore we have two such groups of gods : the elven ones and the dark ones.
After the Trickster tricked them both, the elven ones went up in *heavens* (in dalish lore it may mean that special place beyond the Eluvians, beyond the Fade and beyond Death), while the dark ones went down, below ground.
Since the Old Gods of Tevinter, in the Chantry version, were cast underground by the Maker, and since Tevinter wasn't in good terms with old Arlathan, I would suppose that the mysterious dark gods of the elves are, actually, the gods of old Tevinter.
Now, if we make a synthesis of the whole, it gives : Lyrichlorians = human Maker = elven Trickster, that would make sense since in both Chantry and Dalish lore the Maker and the Trickster are, of all the godly beings, the "last one standing"...

Modifié par Dintonta, 21 juillet 2012 - 05:09 .