293 réponses à ce sujet

[MetioricTest]

Now first off this isn't an ending topic. I'm not saying I want a convential victory or it should be included in DLC or anything like that. I frankly didn't and don't care how the end of the war went down so long as it was told well.

But since this whole "conventional victory" stuff popping up recently (I think some people are calling it the new IT) I've seen literally hundreds of people declare that it is and always was impossible, presented as such since the first game.

And to that I say bull****.

If victory was an impossibility and pointless to attempt until Liara found the crucible plans on the floor at the start of the game. Why did it matter that the council refused to believe the Reaper threat? Why was that dramatic? **** it, if defeat at the hands of Reapers was assured unless someone stumbles over an "I win" button, we may as well deny Reaper existance and die in happiness instead of long drawn out agonizing death. Hell the stumbling part can happen either way (as indeed it did)

What's the relevance of bringing Shepard back to life and stopping the Collectors from abducting human colonies? Saving a few lives? We'd save even more if we took all the resources/time/effort we spent into doing that and instead put it into curing dieases and giving it to hospitals.

Why does it matter whether or not we save Toombs? Take down the Shadow Broker? 

What's the dramatic value in anything, anything at all if at absolute best all it means is "Well, at least we'll go down swinging a little bit more when we all die." That's terrible... The point always was working towards the ultimate goal of defeating the Reapers.

Now don't misunderstand my point here. I'll repeat I'm not saying this as a "And so they should have made it an option!" I'm saying "Within the context of the story it should have been possible or else the story loses a lot of meaning and drama."

The entire trilogy and ME3 especially is so much stronger if:
"We could have beaten the Reapers If only.... The council listened two years ago."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... We would unify our fleets, even at the cost of our homeworld's security."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... The Asari had shared knowledge of the prothean beacon."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... The Batarians had been more cooperative."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... Miranda's butt wasn't distracting the admirals."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... TIM's obsession didn't lead him to indoctrination and he had worked with us."
Etc.
And now we have to fall back on this desperate crucible plan because of the folly of man.

As opposed to:
"Never had a chance. Good thing Liara found those plans 5 minutes ago."

Just my thoughts. In my "headcannon" or whatever (I don't like that term for some reason) defeating the Reapers was always possible. It just was never realized due to arrogance and denial.  I find that to be a much more powerful and moral story than "We were always ****ed but then we discovered the Death Star."

Modifié par MetioricTest, 17 juillet 2012 - 02:41 .

[DistantUtopia]

MetioricTest wrote...
(snip)
Just my thoughts. In my "headcannon" or whatever (I don't like that term for some reason) defeating the Reapers was always possible. It just was never realized to arrogance and denial.  I find that to be a much more powerful and moral story than "We were always ****ed but then we discovered the Death Star."

A very good post and quite a compelling argument why within the narrative, a coventional victory should be possible.

[sth128]

MetioricTest wrote...

The entire trilogy and ME3 especially is so much stronger if:
"We could have beaten the Reapers If only.... The council listened two years ago."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... We would unify our fleets, even at the cost of our homeworld's security."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... The Asari had shared knowledge of the prothean beacon."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... The Batarians had been more cooperative."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... Miranda's butt was distracting the admirals."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... TIM's obsession didn't lead him toindoctrination and he had worked with us."
Etc.
And now we have to fall back on this desperate crucible plan because of the folly of man.

No no you got it backwards. It's more like this:

If the Council listened two years ago............................... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If we unified our fleets...................................................... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If the Asari shared Prothean knowledge........................... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If the Batarians cooperated............................................... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If Miranda distracted everyone with her behind.................. Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If TIM devoted all his resources to actually help Shepard... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.

Nothing we do or not do will EVER change the outcome of the war. Because Reapers cannot be defeated by any means except the Crucible, which contains space magic powered by artistic integrity.

All our decisions, choices, and love interests (and there are so many of them) DO NOT MATTER... Reapers still win because conventional victory is not possible. It is NEVER possible.

Modifié par sth128, 17 juillet 2012 - 02:46 .

[Krunjar]

Honestly I don't think so. It took Sovereign managed to chew it's way through 30% of the alliance fleet with it's shields down and its posterior hanging in the wind. And as numbers go up the power of individuals rise as well.

[StrawberryRainPop]

MetioricTest wrote...

Now first off this isn't an ending topic. I'm not saying I want a convential victory or it should be included in DLC or anything like that. I frankly didn't and don't care how the end of the war went down so long as it was told well.

But since this whole "conventional victory" stuff popping up recently (I think some people are calling it the new IT) I've seen literally hundreds of people declare that it is and always was impossible, presented as such since the first game.

And to that I say bull****.

If victory was an impossibility and pointless to attempt until Liara found the crucible plans on the floor at the start of the game. Why did it matter that the council refused to believe the Reaper threat? Why was that dramatic? **** it, if defeat at the hands of Reapers was assured unless someone stumbles over an "I win" button, we may as well deny Reaper existance and die in happiness instead of long drawn out agonizing death. Hell the stumbling part can happen either way (as indeed it did)

What's the relevance of bringing Shepard back to life and stopping the Collectors from abducting human colonies? Saving a few lives? We'd save even more if we took all the resources/time/effort we spent into doing that and instead put it into curing dieases and giving it to hospitals.

Why does it matter whether or not we save Toombs? Take down the Shadow Broker? 

What's the dramatic value in anything, anything at all if at absolute best all it means is "Well, at least we'll go down swinging a little bit more when we all die." That's terrible... The point always was working towards the ultimate goal of defeating the Reapers.

Now don't misunderstand my point here. I'll repeat I'm not saying this as a "And so they should have made it an option!" I'm saying "Within the context of the story it should have been possible or else the story loses a lot of meaning and drama."

The entire trilogy and ME3 especially is so much stronger if:
"We could have beaten the Reapers If only.... The council listened two years ago."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... We would unify our fleets, even at the cost of our homeworld's security."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... The Asari had shared knowledge of the prothean beacon."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... The Batarians had been more cooperative."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... Miranda's butt wasn't distracting the admirals."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... TIM's obsession didn't lead him to indoctrination and he had worked with us."
Etc.
And now we have to fall back on this desperate crucible plan because of the folly of man.

As opposed to:
"Never had a chance. Good thing Liara found those plans 5 minutes ago."

Just my thoughts. In my "headcannon" or whatever (I don't like that term for some reason) defeating the Reapers was always possible. It just was never realized due to arrogance and denial.  I find that to be a much more powerful and moral story than "We were always ****ed but then we discovered the Death Star."

hey.....you know...

ARTISTIC INTEGRITY

[MetioricTest]

sth128 wrote...
No no you got it backwards. It's more like this:

If the Council listened two years ago... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If we unified our fleets... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If the Asari shared Prothean knowledge... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If the Batarians cooperated... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If Miranda distracted everyone with her behind... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If TIM devoted all his resources to actually help Shepard... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.

Nothing we do or not do will EVER change the outcome of the war. Because Reapers cannot be defeated by any means except the Crucible, which contains space magic powered by artistic integrity.

All our decisions, choices, and love interests (and there are so many of them) DO NOT MATTER... Reapers still win because conventional victory is not possible. It is NEVER possile.

I honestly can't tell whether this is sarcasm or not :/

But incase it's not, what a boring story with utterly needless tension and drama over things that don't matter in the least. And how awful does the indrouction of the crucible become, found at the start of the 3rd installment of 3.

If that's the plot it's better to not play it. Rather pretend Shepard sat back and drank margaritas all day.

Seems to void storytelling 101

[Gabylan001]

the ending kills the first two games and 90% of the third.

Modifié par Gabylan001, 17 juillet 2012 - 02:53 .

[essarr71]

Youre going to die. No way to avoid it.

Would you say everything up until then is a waste of time?

[RavenEyry]

sth128 wrote...

No no you got it backwards. It's more like this:

If the Council listened two years ago............................... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If we unified our fleets...................................................... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If the Asari shared Prothean knowledge........................... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If the Batarians cooperated............................................... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If Miranda distracted everyone with her behind.................. Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.
If TIM devoted all his resources to actually help Shepard... Reapers still win because conventional victory not possible.

Nothing we do or not do will EVER change the outcome of the war. Because Reapers cannot be defeated by any means except the Crucible, which contains space magic powered by artistic integrity.

All our decisions, choices, and love interests (and there are so many of them) DO NOT MATTER... Reapers still win because conventional victory is not possible. It is NEVER possible.

Um, I think that was the point of the thread.

@OP: Wow, I never had an strong feelings about the crucible either way but now I really hate it.

[sth128]

MetioricTest wrote...

I honestly can't tell whether this is sarcasm or not :/

[...]

Seems to void storytelling 101

I'm mocking Bioware's decision with sarcasm, yes. I am agreeing with your assessment that "victory impossible" pretty much voids every choice we were presented in the entire series.

A hero's journey is only meaningful if he or she can actually make a difference. If victory was never possible (as stated over and over in the third game) then whether or not we united the galaxy means little.

It's like knowing that Bruce Willis is a ghost before watching "The Sixth Sense". It renders the entire film pointless.

Incidentally, my friend told me the end of TSS before I saw it. We are no longer friends.

[sth128]

RavenEyry wrote...

Um, I think that was the point of the thread.

Yes and I'm reiterating it in my own way. People think the ending(s) is the problem. The real problem lies in the concept which forms the basis of the story.

If you cannot win, there's no point in trying. It's like alchemy. You can't change lead into gold. Just stop. Appointing the best chemists and metallurgists in the galaxy won't change a thing, ME3 will still be a block of lead instead of gold.

[MetioricTest]

essarr71 wrote...

Youre going to die. No way to avoid it.

Would you say everything up until then is a waste of time?

I'd say the drama about it was a waste of time. And curiously Saren was completely right in every way.

If we were all going to die no matter what I wouldn't be angry at the council for denying it and living happy lives.

I wouldn't be paranoid about the implications of the Rachni race's survival.

I wouldn't waste my time saving a few thousand colonists.

Seriously, next time you play ME1 and ME2 keep in mind that Reaper defeat is impossible and all your actions towards this point are pointless. No decision anybody makes or incicdent/mission that happens at any time has any bearing on the result.

Then realize that now the entire game has become pointless. And the way they try to make each one come across as dramatic and important is now laughable.

That's a terrible story.

Here are three stories:

#1: Long ago, a storm was heading toward the city of Quin'lat. The people sought protection within the walls. All except one man who remained outside. I went and asked what he was doing. He replied "I am not afraid, I will not hide my face behind stone and mortar. I will stand before the wind and make it respect me." I honored his choice and went inside. The next day, the storm came and the man was killed. The wind does not respect a fool.


#2: Long ago, a storm was heading toward the city of Quin'lat. The people sought protection within the walls. All except one man who remained outside. I went and asked what he was doing. He replied "I am not afraid, I will not hide my face behind stone and mortar. I will stand before the wind and make it respect me." I honored his choice and went inside. But the wind broke the walls and we all died anyway.

#3: Long ago, a storm was heading toward the city of Quin'lat. The people sought protection within the walls. All except one man who remained outside. I went and asked what he was doing. He replied "I am not afraid, I will not hide my face behind stone and mortar. I will stand before the wind and make it respect me." I honored his choice and went inside. But the wind broke the walls and most of us died but luckily I found a "Stop the wind" device on the floor that saved some of us.

Which do you think is the strongest story? I'll stick with #1

Modifié par MetioricTest, 17 juillet 2012 - 03:04 .

[sth128]

essarr71 wrote...

Youre going to die. No way to avoid it.

Would you say everything up until then is a waste of time?

Speak for yourself. Even if technological singularity does not occur within my life time, the genetic revolution certainly will.

I plan on living forever... Then turn myself into a robot. Muwhahaha!

Also, your analogy is inept. Death marks the end of the story, not the end results of our struggle. Your analogy sounds like "the game will end anyway so why play it".

[MetioricTest]

sth128 wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Youre going to die. No way to avoid it.

Would you say everything up until then is a waste of time?

Speak for yourself. Even if technological singularity does not occur within my life time, the genetic revolution certainly will.

I plan on living forever... Then turn myself into a robot. Muwhahaha!

Also, your analogy is inept. Death marks the end of the story, not the end results of our struggle. Your analogy sounds like "the game will end anyway so why play it".

Skyrim never ends

[sth128]

MetioricTest wrote...

Skyrim never ends

And if you hit the pause button while playing ME3, it never ends either.

Hit pause while watching The Neverending Story... Neverending within Neverending... NEVERENDINGDECEPTION!

Bwann... Meh forget it that meme is dead.

[SuperVulcan]

      The way I see it, conventional victory was never possible. The point of ME 1 was to introduce the setting, galaxy, story and so on. The beginning of Mass Effect 2, shows that the Reapers saw and acknowleged as a threat and they decided to take him out. Shepard was seen by the Illusive Man as the only hope for humanity.

     As for destroying the Collectors that was necessary because they were abducting humans, making the Human Reaper. Even before the Illusive Man knew they worked with the Reapers, he knew they had advanced technology; either way, TIM wanted to get his hands on it. Remember, Shepard is skeptical about working for Cerberus, but once the Collector are confirmed to be working for the Reapers, he decides to work with them. So the reason Shepard destroys the Collectors is because they were the only lead he had on the Reapers' activities in the galaxy and he chooses to persue it.

Throughout the trilogy, whether you know it or not, your actions ultimately affect how well the Crucible is going to be built. Of course, we didn't know that first and BioWare probably didn't either.

[Feyise]

And thats why the crucible was a terrible idea

[lillitheris]

MetioricTest wrote...

Just my thoughts. In my "headcannon" or whatever (I don't like that term for some reason) defeating the Reapers was always possible.

Try ‘headcanon’, the correct spelling?

…

There’s some narrative truth to this. However, part of me has always liked inevitabilities.

So, rather than “if the Council had acted 2 years ago, we could have won”, you have “if the Council had acted 2 years ago, we might have saved billions of lives by preparing better”.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

One word: No.

[RavenEyry]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

One word: No.

A question wasn't asked, so, ah, what are you answering?

[JBPBRC]

MetioricTest wrote...

As opposed to:
"Never had a chance. Good thing Liara found those plans 5 minutes ago."

...

I find that to be a much more powerful and moral story than "We were always ****ed but then we discovered the Death Star."

And this is why the Crucible is forever despised.

Hell, the giant gun that one-shotted a Sovereign (which was obviously a massive Cain, but I digress) didn't get looked into at all. Good thing we found what we think is a Prothean superweapon. Yup yup.

[SpamBot2000]

Well, you make a good point OP. Though seeing as it is a video game, there should be a possibility to actually impact some of those events in a meaningful way, rather than just look back on it as a lesson wasted on fools.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

RavenEyry wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

One word: No.

A question wasn't asked, so, ah, what are you answering?

The thread title. The OP is clearly wrong. 

[RavenEyry]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

One word: No.

A question wasn't asked, so, ah, what are you answering?

The thread title. The OP is clearly wrong. 

Since it appears you have dismissed the entire thread based on it's title without even reading the post, it seems rather difficult for you to add anything valuable to the discussion, so why do you bother?

[Mr.House]

Miracle of Palavan and Rannoch. Sure it was not the entire Reaper force, but if the united fleet used those tactics and where not idiots during the battle of Sol a conventional victory, while costly is indeed possible. Also the Reapers have one massive flaw. They can't replenish their numbers, only their foot soldiers. If you keep destroying so many dreadnaughts it will hurt the reapers in the long run because it takes to long to make Reapers. Also if you have the geth and rachni alive, they can build ships between clusters, and if you cured the genophage you will have unlimited krogan krogan troops at your hand(see krogan rebellions of why it ended with a bio weapon)

Not to mention if ME2 was not a waste of time and we in fact got people ready for the invasion, got all ships with thanix canons, made sure we had alot of dreadnaughts ready and the council where not complete utter morons then it would have been possible. ME2 hurt the main story arc ALOT because of it doing nothing.