293 réponses à ce sujet

[MetioricTest]

In fact it's quite funny.

Liara tells you that she started her search... Because Hackett asked her to use her Shadow Broker resources to search for a weapons against the Reapers after Shepard was put on Lockdown.

Which means neither Liara or Shepard thought of it or did it from their own accord... It also means Liara discovered the Prothean ruin and successfully plundered it for this information within literally a couple of months.

Imagine what every keen mind in the universe working for 2.6 years would have uncovered

Modifié par MetioricTest, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:02 .

[MetioricTest]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

Yeah, I don't really know what they're doing. Maybe they're just in denial? How early does Shepard hear the infamous 'Can't be beaten conventionally' line?

Hackett. I believe he says it (although it's coppy) when Shepard is sent to Mars right at the start.

And then he says it for certain later. Still early.

[PoisonMushroom]

MetioricTest wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

Yeah, I don't really know what they're doing. Maybe they're just in denial? How early does Shepard hear the infamous 'Can't be beaten conventionally' line?

Hackett. I believe he says it (although it's coppy) when Shepard is sent to Mars right at the start.

And then he says it for certain later. Still early.

So Shepard doesn't actually know that building up defences etc is futile until right before they discover the Crucible anyway. At least then your actions prior to that are based on ignorance rather than stupidity.

Shepard was uniting the Galaxy because he just didn't know any better.

[dreman9999]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

Yeah, I don't really know what they're doing. Maybe they're just in denial? How early does Shepard hear the infamous 'Can't be beaten conventionally' line?

Hackett. I believe he says it (although it's coppy) when Shepard is sent to Mars right at the start.

And then he says it for certain later. Still early.

So Shepard doesn't actually know that building up defences etc is futile until right before they discover the Crucible anyway. At least then your actions prior to that are based on ignorance rather than stupidity.

Shepard was uniting the Galaxy because he just didn't know any better.

Shepard had no call on anything becausehe was jailed. And he started uniting the galaxy after he got the info on the crucible..

[BeastSaver]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

Yeah, I don't really know what they're doing. Maybe they're just in denial? How early does Shepard hear the infamous 'Can't be beaten conventionally' line?

Hackett. I believe he says it (although it's coppy) when Shepard is sent to Mars right at the start.

And then he says it for certain later. Still early.

So Shepard doesn't actually know that building up defences etc is futile until right before they discover the Crucible anyway. At least then your actions prior to that are based on ignorance rather than stupidity.

Shepard was uniting the Galaxy because he just didn't know any better.

In a conversation between Hackett and Shepard, Shepard asks the "what if" question -- that the Crucible is built and doesn't work. The only thing left would be to fight to the last wo/man.

When you're talking about Reapers, there is no other choice. Will you go out on your feet or on your knees?

Modifié par BeastSaver, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:10 .

[BeastSaver]

Sorry. Double post.

Modifié par BeastSaver, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:09 .

[dreman9999]

BeastSaver wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

Yeah, I don't really know what they're doing. Maybe they're just in denial? How early does Shepard hear the infamous 'Can't be beaten conventionally' line?

Hackett. I believe he says it (although it's coppy) when Shepard is sent to Mars right at the start.

And then he says it for certain later. Still early.

So Shepard doesn't actually know that building up defences etc is futile until right before they discover the Crucible anyway. At least then your actions prior to that are based on ignorance rather than stupidity.

Shepard was uniting the Galaxy because he just didn't know any better.

In a conversation between Hackett and Shepard, Shepard asks the "what if" question -- that the Crucible is built and doesn't work. The only thing left would be to fight to the last wo/man.

When you're talking about Reapers, there is no other choice. Will you go out on your feet or on your knees?

The reaper will keep reaping because they are machines doing what they are programed to do.

[MetioricTest]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

So Shepard doesn't actually know that building up defences etc is futile until right before they discover the Crucible anyway. At least then your actions prior to that are based on ignorance rather than stupidity.

Shepard was uniting the Galaxy because he just didn't know any better.

Several things:

For one "You're only playing as an idiot through ignorance." isn't much of an improvement. And still makes most of the first two games a joke.

For another Shepard has extensive military knowledge on every force in the galaxy and has faced Sovereign and knows hundreds if not thousands more are coming. If they were impossible to defeat conventionally, Shepard would know better than anyone. if Shepard simply "didn't realize." then he is still an idiot.

As well as this, after Shepard has learned about the crucible and it is under construction while the Reapers are attacking but before the device is ready... he still wants to unify the fleets. Which is absolutely absurd if the Reapers are undefeatable. All it does is raise the chance of obliteration and severely cut down any time we have to finish the Crucible. So Shepard is still an idiot.

Even Anderson wanted him to get aid from the other fleets because "We can't do it alone." not "We can't do it."

But most importantly: This isn't about whether or not Shepard is an idiot. It's about the first two games. If Shepard is doing stupid and asinine things, even with great intentions, it still almost destroys a lot of the consequences, tensions, drama and plots. Others it makes irrelevant. All for the gain of nothing... "The Reapers being 100% unbeatable no matter what" instead of "100% unbeatable because the folly of man made a laundry list of mistakes and now we're paying for them" adds nothing to the story... And takes a lot away from the story.

In terms of narrative it's absurd.

Bad analogy incoming:

It'd be like The Dark Knight Rises stating Batman had been beating up innocents in the first two movies which hugely aided all the criminals. But it's okay because he didn't mean to.

Well that kills the first two movies, doesn't add anything to the 3rd one and makes him very silly now doesn't it?

Modifié par MetioricTest, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:18 .

[dreman9999]

MetioricTest wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

So Shepard doesn't actually know that building up defences etc is futile until right before they discover the Crucible anyway. At least then your actions prior to that are based on ignorance rather than stupidity.

Shepard was uniting the Galaxy because he just didn't know any better.

Several things:

For one "You're only playing as an idiot through ignorance." isn't much of an improvement. And still makes most of the first two games a joke.

For another Shepard has extensive military knowledge on every force in the galaxy and has faced Sovereign and knows hundreds if not thousands more are coming. If they were impossible to defeat conventionally, Shepard would know better than anyone. if Shepard simply "didn't realize." then he is still an idiot.

As well as this, after Shepard has learned about the crucible and it is under construction while the Reapers are attacking but before the device is ready... he still wants to unify the fleets. Which is absolutely absurd if the Reapers are undefeatable. All it does is raise the chance of obliteration and severely cut down any time we have to finish the Crucible. So Shepard is still an idiot.

Even Anderson wanted him to get aid from the other fleets because "We can't do it alone." not "We can't do it."

But most importantly: This isn't about whether or not Shepard is an idiot. It's about the first two games. If Shepard is doing stupid and asinine things, even with great intentions, it still almost destroys a lot of the consequences, tensions, drama and plots. Others it makes irrelevant. All for the gain of nothing... "The Reapers being 100% unbeatable no matter what" instead of "100% unbeatable because the folly of man made a laundry list of mistakes and now we're paying for them" adds nothing to the story... And takes a lot away from the story.

In terms of narrative it's absurd.

Bad analogy incoming:

It'd be like The Dark Knight Rises stating Batman had been beating up innocents in the first two movies which hugely aided all the criminals. But it's okay because he didn't mean to.

Well that kills the first two movies, doesn't add anything to the 3rd one and makes him very silly now doesn't it?

Did you not get that the point of ME2 was to find weakness for the reaper? We attack the collector base just to learn more about the reapers. Of couse Shepard knew the reaper can't be beat convetionaly. He even says it in the paragon comment during the scene Liara visits him in lotsb. Just because you can beat something convetionally, doen't mean you can beat it. You have to find it weakness of or a tool that can beat them.
And how do you not get it that uniting the fleets is not for stopping the reapers in direct conflict...It's to allow the crucible to be used in battle. How many time does this have to be said.

[shodiswe]

The first two games sets the stage.

ME1 shows us the universe, the races the citadel the galactic community and a sinister threat that lurks behind the scenes.

ME2 starts by having Shepard transformed into a Organic/synthetic hybrid with free will, even if it's not like TIM to promote freewill, but im guessing the Catalyst demanded it and TIM doesn't even realize it himself.
The Lazarus project transformed shepard into the template and schematics for a sucessful synthesis between Organics and synthetics.

In ME3 the Catalyst lets Shepard get to the citadel and disperse the "cure for the synthetic/organic conflict". At this point Shepard has the option of overridign the Catalysts programming and stop the reaping and the syn thesis and everything and restore the galaxy, (Control), Or Synthesis that transmits Sheaprds designs to all the reaper nanites out there that starts retailoring every organic with the vast amount of energy provided by the crucible.
Or destroy that lets loose all the energy and a distorted transmission that spams all AIs and tech with trash code that makes them shutoff / die.

Or refuse, hey!!! I don't want to do anything im tired of getting manipulated just kill us already! Liquify us and let someone else sort this mess out!

[MetioricTest]

Did you not get that the point of ME2 was to find weakness for the reaper? We attack the collector base just to learn more about the reapers. Of couse Shepard knew the reaper can't be beat convetionaly. He even says it in the paragon comment during the scene Liara visits him in lotsb. Just because you can beat something convetionally, doen't mean you can beat it. You have to find it weakness of or a tool that can beat them.
And how do you not get it that uniting the fleets is not for stopping the reapers in direct conflict...It's to allow the crucible to be used in battle. How many time does this have to be said.

No. No it wasn't.

It was to save the Human colonists. We didn't even know who the Collectors were until well into the game. The legend of Collectors in the game was presented as legend of rogue slavers.

The fact they are Protheans was actually meant to be a big reveal.

And keeping the collector base to use a weapon against the Reapers is something TIM comes up with right at the end of the game. He had no idea what was beyond the Relay until Shepard went through.

This is exactly what I mean about the mindset you get after you've played ME3 recently but not ME2. Replay ME1 and ME2 with "Reapers are 100% impossible to defeat no matter what" in mind at all teams and you'll soon see what I mean.

Meanwhile at no point in ME2 or ME1 does Shepard or TIM go about trying to create and fund teams of people looking for a Reaper superweapon. TIM even funds Biotic research and Geth research. But when Liara goes looking for a Reaper superweapon... She finds it in under two months. Making both TIM and Shepard idiots and nullifying ME2 as "searching for a weakness."

In addition Shepard wants to unify the fleets BEFORE the crucible is completed. Which puts the crucible in immense danger along with every home planet in the galaxy. It's idiotic. Keep the fleets seperated and you spread the Reapers about. 

^ That's the bit you keep ignoring. Shepard wanted to unify fleets before the crucible was discovered, after it was discovered and after it was completed.

Only the 3rd is reasonable. The first two are foolish.

Modifié par MetioricTest, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:38 .

[Blueprotoss]

dreman9999 wrote...

Shepard had no call on anything becausehe was jailed. And he started uniting the galaxy after he got the info on the crucible..

Ironically Shepard has been uniting the Milky Way since ME1.

dreman9999 wrote...

The reaper will keep reaping because they are machines doing what they are programed to do.

They also have the most advanced technology in the Milky Way. 

dreman9999 wrote...

Did you not get that the point of ME2 was to find weakness for the reaper? We attack the collector base just to learn more about the reapers. Of couse Shepard knew the reaper can't be beat convetionaly. He even says it in the paragon comment during the scene Liara visits him in lotsb. Just because you can beat something convetionally, doen't mean you can beat it. You have to find it weakness of or a tool that can beat them.
And how do you not get it that uniting the fleets is not for stopping the reapers in direct conflict...It's to allow the crucible to be used in battle. How many time does this have to be said.

This very true and sadly we can't stop some people from uselessly beating a dead horse. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:41 .

[dreman9999]

MetioricTest wrote...

Did you not get that the point of ME2 was to find weakness for the reaper? We attack the collector base just to learn more about the reapers. Of couse Shepard knew the reaper can't be beat convetionaly. He even says it in the paragon comment during the scene Liara visits him in lotsb. Just because you can beat something convetionally, doen't mean you can beat it. You have to find it weakness of or a tool that can beat them.
And how do you not get it that uniting the fleets is not for stopping the reapers in direct conflict...It's to allow the crucible to be used in battle. How many time does this have to be said.

No. No it wasn't.

It was to save the Human colonists. We didn't even know who the Collectors were until well into the game. The legend of Collectors in the game was presented as legend of rogue slavers.

The fact they are Protheans was actually meant to be a big reveal.

And keeping the collector base to use a weapon against the Reapers is something TIM comes up with right at the end of the game. He had no idea what was beyond the Relay until Shepard went through.

This is exactly what I mean about the mindset you get after you've played ME3 recently but not ME2. Replay ME1 and ME2 with "Reapers are 100% impossible to defeat no matter what" in mind at all teams and you'll soon see what I mean.

Meanwhile at no point in ME2 or ME1 does Shepard or TIM go about trying to create and fund teams of people looking for a Reaper superweapon. TIM even funds Biotic research and Geth research. But when Liara goes looking for a Reaper superweapon... She finds it in under two months. Making both TIM and Shepard idiots and nullifying ME2 as "searching for a weakness."

In addition Shepard wants to unify the fleets BEFORE the crucible is completed. Which puts the crucible in immense danger along with every home planet in the galaxy. It's idiotic. Keep the fleets seperated and you spread the Reapers about. 

^ That's the bit you keep ignoring. Shepard wanted to unify fleets before the crucible was discovered, after it was discovered and after it was completed.

Only the 3rd is reasonable. The first two are foolish.

I'm going to tellyou this now....Rewatch the first converstions with TIM and Shepard and listen to what TIM is saying. He clearly says"THE COLLECTORS ARE WORKING FOR THE REAPERS".
wHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

[Memnon]

For the analogy of the atomic bomb to be relevant to the Crucible, the galaxy would have had to get the brightest scientists from all of the races together to some planet, where a massive - yet secret - laboratory complex is established and their mission in life is to find out how to fight the Reapers based on knowledge and information that was available to them. In fact, I don't know why this never happend - except Cerberus, who as eeevil as they were in ME3, at least had the common sense to try to freaking study the Reapers. Cerberus studied the derelict Reaper in ME2 for crying out loud - we also had Legion's substantial intelligence of the Reapers, we had the Collector's Base where we could have potentially found some information. Apparently we saved the embryotic human Reaper, and Cerberus even managed to create husks ... having a ME version of the Manhattan Project would have been infinitely better than finding the magic gun on Mars.

And this is to say nothing of the fact that we're going to devote an ENORMOUS amount of resources to build something we have no clue about regarding its functionality - this idea was so ludicrous to me, that while I was playing I believed that the Crucible plans were planted by the Reapers themselves to divert our resources away from truly productive endeavors

Modifié par Stornskar, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:58 .

[MetioricTest]

dreman9999 wrote...
]I'm going to tellyou this now....Rewatch the first converstions with TIM and Shepard and listen to what TIM is saying. He clearly says"THE COLLECTORS ARE WORKING FOR THE REAPERS".
wHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

...

That the Collectors are working for The Reapers.

I'm not sure what your point is

[Blueprotoss]

MetioricTest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]I'm going to tellyou this now....Rewatch the first converstions with TIM and Shepard and listen to what TIM is saying. He clearly says"THE COLLECTORS ARE WORKING FOR THE REAPERS".
wHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

...

That the Collectors are working for The Reapers.

I'm not sure what your point is

The Reapers defeated the previous cycle and the Prothean survivors other then Javik were turned into the Indoctrinated slaves that the Collectors are.

[MetioricTest]

Blueprotoss wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]I'm going to tellyou this now....Rewatch the first converstions with TIM and Shepard and listen to what TIM is saying. He clearly says"THE COLLECTORS ARE WORKING FOR THE REAPERS".
wHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

...

That the Collectors are working for The Reapers.

I'm not sure what your point is

The Reapers defeated the previous cycle and the Prothean survivors other then Javik were turned into the Indoctrinated slaves that the Collectors are.

I'm still not sure what your point is.

And TIM didn't know that until about half way into the game when you first go onto the Collector Ship and find out

Modifié par MetioricTest, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:02 .

[Blueprotoss]

Stornskar wrote...

For the analogy of the atomic bomb to be relevant to the Crucible, the galaxy would have had to get the brightest scientists from all of the races together to some planet, where a massive - yet secret - laboratory complex is established and their mission in life is to find out how to fight the Reapers based on knowledge and information that was available to them. In fact, I don't know why this never happend - except Cerberus, who as eeevil as they were in ME3, at least had the common sense to try to freaking study the Reapers. Cerberus studied the derelict Reaper in ME2 for crying out loud - we also had Legion's substantial intelligence of the Reapers, we had the Collector's Base where we could have potentially found some information. Apparently we saved the embryotic human Reaper, and Cerberus even managed to create husks ... having a ME version of the Manhattan Project would have been infinitely better than finding the magic gun on Mars.

Yet you're arguing over semantics even when the US had several of the brightest foreign minds in the Manhattan Project like Albert Einstein.  Don't forget that most of the 1st World Nations at the time during WWII, which Germany and Japan weren't that far behind the US.  Ironically the sceientists labeled the Atomic bomb as a "magic bomb" based on they didn't know what woud happen if it went off like removing the Earth's atmosphere.

Stornskar wrote... 

And this is to say nothing of the fact that we're going to devote an ENORMOUS amount of resources to build something we have no clue about regarding its functionality - this idea was so ludicrous to me, that while I was playing I believed that the Crucible plans were planted by the Reapers themselves to divert our resources away from truly productive endeavors

Its not my fault that you're just focusing on opinion and complaining over nothing.

[Blueprotoss]

MetioricTest wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]I'm going to tellyou this now....Rewatch the first converstions with TIM and Shepard and listen to what TIM is saying. He clearly says"THE COLLECTORS ARE WORKING FOR THE REAPERS".
wHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

...

That the Collectors are working for The Reapers.

I'm not sure what your point is

The Reapers defeated the previous cycle and the Prothean survivors other then Javik were turned into the Indoctrinated slaves that the Collectors are.

I'm still not sure what your point is.

And TIM didn't know that until about half way into the game when you first go onto the Collector Ship and find out

So you missed the whole wild goose chase that the Illussive Man set Shepard on including the Collector Ship mission in ME2.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:13 .

[MetioricTest]

Are you just saying random things for the hell of it now?

[Blueprotoss]

MetioricTest wrote...

Are you just saying random things for the hell of it now?

Not at all while I'm just using common sense from playing the ME games.

[v TricKy v]

dreman9999 wrote...

And how do you not get it that uniting the fleets is not for stopping the reapers in direct conflict...It's to allow the crucible to be used in battle. How many time does this have to be said.

This argument is flawed unless Hackett and Shepard can see in the future because nobody knew that you need the Citadel for it. The Citadel also gets moved right after you have been told about it. The Citadel was safe the whole time.
So why are you uniting the galaxy if you dont know that you need the Citadel and you dont know that is getting moved to Earth?

[dreman9999]

v TricKy v wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And how do you not get it that uniting the fleets is not for stopping the reapers in direct conflict...It's to allow the crucible to be used in battle. How many time does this have to be said.

This argument is flawed unless Hackett and Shepard can see in the future because nobody knew that you need the Citadel for it. The Citadel also gets moved right after you have been told about it. The Citadel was safe the whole time.
So why are you uniting the galaxy if you dont know that you need the Citadel and you dont know that is getting moved to Earth?

No it's not. No matter how it was deplode it still need  a fleet to defend it till its used. It it was a gun, a fleet still nees to guard it, if it was a bomb, same case.

[dreman9999]

MetioricTest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]I'm going to tellyou this now....Rewatch the first converstions with TIM and Shepard and listen to what TIM is saying. He clearly says"THE COLLECTORS ARE WORKING FOR THE REAPERS".
wHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

...

That the Collectors are working for The Reapers.

I'm not sure what your point is

And they would have into on the reapers tech. The base the collectors used is a key to finding out how to defeat the reapers.

[krasnoarmeets]

Just for the record 'headcanon' i.e. the canon version that resides in my head and which I'm happy with versus 'headcannon' i.e. a bit like the big guns that elcor carry on their backs, only a little smaller...