293 réponses à ce sujet

[Len Lfc]

I understand you, completely, but the fact is, you don't just give up. If the Reapers are going to destroy you no matter what, you still do what it takes, in hopes of a victory, you keep fighting, & you never give up. You die fighting, knowing you did everything you could to stop them. Why on earth would you think it's pointless & decide not to do anything?

[Voiceacted a Husk]

BeastSaver wrote...

This was Vigil's supposition. Why it assumed that the Reapers had no way of traveling from the void between galaxies when they can move from system to system using FTL is flawed logic. Here is the transcribed text from the Watcher's Chamber:

"It is logical to assume the Reapers would leave one of their own behind after each extinction, a sentinel to pave the way for their inevitable return. Like those in dark space, Sovereign probably spent most of the last 50,000 years in a state of hibernation. Periodically, it would wake to analyze the situation. Keeping its existence hidden, it would evaluate the state of the galactic civilization. And, when the time was right, it would signal the Citadel and usher in the next Reaper invasion. But this time the signal failed. The keepers did not respond. Sovereign’s allies were trapped in the void. Alone, it was forced to try and discover what had gone wrong."

Well, yes. It was Vigil's supposition supported by in-game events and lore.

Sovereign spent a minimum of two thousand years (from the rachni wars to the present day) preparing the galaxy for the Reapers' return. If the Reapers could return in a measly few years, they could have jumped from Alpha Relay to Widow Relay at any moment during that time period. It renders ME1 absurd, and it makes the Reapers...

If this is the case, then the Reapers were not only lazy, they were pathetic from the start. Sovereign is turned from an intricate planner who was foiled at the last instant into a blithering idiot without an ounce of sense. I refuse to do that to sentient starships that have been harvesting for upward of a billion years.

[dreman9999]

Voiceacted a Husk wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...

This was Vigil's supposition. Why it assumed that the Reapers had no way of traveling from the void between galaxies when they can move from system to system using FTL is flawed logic. Here is the transcribed text from the Watcher's Chamber:

"It is logical to assume the Reapers would leave one of their own behind after each extinction, a sentinel to pave the way for their inevitable return. Like those in dark space, Sovereign probably spent most of the last 50,000 years in a state of hibernation. Periodically, it would wake to analyze the situation. Keeping its existence hidden, it would evaluate the state of the galactic civilization. And, when the time was right, it would signal the Citadel and usher in the next Reaper invasion. But this time the signal failed. The keepers did not respond. Sovereign’s allies were trapped in the void. Alone, it was forced to try and discover what had gone wrong."

Well, yes. It was Vigil's supposition supported by in-game events and lore.

Sovereign spent a minimum of two thousand years (from the rachni wars to the present day) preparing the galaxy for the Reapers' return. If the Reapers could return in a measly few years, they could have jumped from Alpha Relay to Widow Relay at any moment during that time period. It renders ME1 absurd, and it makes the Reapers...

If this is the case, then the Reapers were not only lazy, they were pathetic from the start. Sovereign is turned from an intricate planner who was foiled at the last instant into a blithering idiot without an ounce of sense. I refuse to do that to sentient starships that have been harvesting for upward of a billion years.

None of what you said made any sense.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

 Depends if by conventional victory you mean:

-Crucible-less victory or
-Actual conventional victory

The latter, yeah, I can see that being impossible.  But the former, not so much.  But yes I agree, the plot would have ben better if the tone was that we had simply screwed up too much to win w/o a deus ex machina.

Also, for a plot that used deus ex machina but DIDN'T SUCK, see star control 2.  It was very similar to ME3's story, and had a DEM, but made sense, and was actually well written.

[dreman9999]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

 Depends if by conventional victory you mean:

-Crucible-less victory or
-Actual conventional victory

The latter, yeah, I can see that being impossible.  But the former, not so much.  But yes I agree, the plot would have ben better if the tone was that we had simply screwed up too much to win w/o a deus ex machina.

Also, for a plot that used deus ex machina but DIDN'T SUCK, see star control 2.  It was very similar to ME3's story, and had a DEM, but made sense, and was actually well written.

But the crucible is not a deus ex. Synthesis is.

[BeastSaver]

Voiceacted a Husk wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...

This was Vigil's supposition. Why it assumed that the Reapers had no way of traveling from the void between galaxies when they can move from system to system using FTL is flawed logic. Here is the transcribed text from the Watcher's Chamber:

"It is logical to assume the Reapers would leave one of their own behind after each extinction, a sentinel to pave the way for their inevitable return. Like those in dark space, Sovereign probably spent most of the last 50,000 years in a state of hibernation. Periodically, it would wake to analyze the situation. Keeping its existence hidden, it would evaluate the state of the galactic civilization. And, when the time was right, it would signal the Citadel and usher in the next Reaper invasion. But this time the signal failed. The keepers did not respond. Sovereign’s allies were trapped in the void. Alone, it was forced to try and discover what had gone wrong."

Well, yes. It was Vigil's supposition supported by in-game events and lore.

Sovereign spent a minimum of two thousand years (from the rachni wars to the present day) preparing the galaxy for the Reapers' return. If the Reapers could return in a measly few years, they could have jumped from Alpha Relay to Widow Relay at any moment during that time period. It renders ME1 absurd, and it makes the Reapers...

If this is the case, then the Reapers were not only lazy, they were pathetic from the start. Sovereign is turned from an intricate planner who was foiled at the last instant into a blithering idiot without an ounce of sense. I refuse to do that to sentient starships that have been harvesting for upward of a billion years.

The operative word in the above quote is "trapped." The Reapers were obviously not trapped in the void. It just took longer for them to travel without a relay.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

dreman9999 wrote...
But the crucible is not a deus ex. Synthesis is.

All the endings are if you ask me.  But DEM CAN be done right, it's just very hard if you're genre isn't comedy.

[robertthebard]

MetioricTest wrote...

PoisonMushroom wrote...

So Shepard doesn't actually know that building up defences etc is futile until right before they discover the Crucible anyway. At least then your actions prior to that are based on ignorance rather than stupidity.

Shepard was uniting the Galaxy because he just didn't know any better.

Several things:

For one "You're only playing as an idiot through ignorance." isn't much of an improvement. And still makes most of the first two games a joke.

For another Shepard has extensive military knowledge on every force in the galaxy and has faced Sovereign and knows hundreds if not thousands more are coming. If they were impossible to defeat conventionally, Shepard would know better than anyone. if Shepard simply "didn't realize." then he is still an idiot.

As well as this, after Shepard has learned about the crucible and it is under construction while the Reapers are attacking but before the device is ready... he still wants to unify the fleets. Which is absolutely absurd if the Reapers are undefeatable. All it does is raise the chance of obliteration and severely cut down any time we have to finish the Crucible. So Shepard is still an idiot.

Even Anderson wanted him to get aid from the other fleets because "We can't do it alone." not "We can't do it."

But most importantly: This isn't about whether or not Shepard is an idiot. It's about the first two games. If Shepard is doing stupid and asinine things, even with great intentions, it still almost destroys a lot of the consequences, tensions, drama and plots. Others it makes irrelevant. All for the gain of nothing... "The Reapers being 100% unbeatable no matter what" instead of "100% unbeatable because the folly of man made a laundry list of mistakes and now we're paying for them" adds nothing to the story... And takes a lot away from the story.

In terms of narrative it's absurd.

Bad analogy incoming:

It'd be like The Dark Knight Rises stating Batman had been beating up innocents in the first two movies which hugely aided all the criminals. But it's okay because he didn't mean to.

Well that kills the first two movies, doesn't add anything to the 3rd one and makes him very silly now doesn't it?

So if you go to the bar and get drunk every night, instead of studying for a mid-term, you think you should still pass it?  Instead of preparing the galaxy for the impending invasion, we spent all of ME 2 chasing around after the Collectors, and playing "make me happy" with squad mates.  Now, we're just one ship, if the Alliance/Council were actually preparing for the invasion, instead of denying the threat, we could have gotten away with that.  However, they weren't.  They stuck their heads in the sand and tried to pretend it couldn't happen instead of getting ready, and yet, we're still supposed to be ready.

Hackett probably does his deal with Liara after the events of Arrival, where it's his friend that tells him "The Reapers are coming".  There's a PDA, I believe in the tram control room, that tells us that they just found a new site recently, I don't remember if it states how recently, and Liara is investigating that.  He is still one man, and answers to people higher up, Alliance Council, who, all of a sudden, are firm believers and think that after the door has been kicked down, it's time to barricade it.  So yes, the consequence of pretending a threat doesn't exist is, when it shows up, you're not ready.

[ZLurps]

BeastSaver wrote...

Voiceacted a Husk wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...

This was Vigil's supposition. Why it assumed that the Reapers had no way of traveling from the void between galaxies when they can move from system to system using FTL is flawed logic. Here is the transcribed text from the Watcher's Chamber:

"It is logical to assume the Reapers would leave one of their own behind after each extinction, a sentinel to pave the way for their inevitable return. Like those in dark space, Sovereign probably spent most of the last 50,000 years in a state of hibernation. Periodically, it would wake to analyze the situation. Keeping its existence hidden, it would evaluate the state of the galactic civilization. And, when the time was right, it would signal the Citadel and usher in the next Reaper invasion. But this time the signal failed. The keepers did not respond. Sovereign’s allies were trapped in the void. Alone, it was forced to try and discover what had gone wrong."

Well, yes. It was Vigil's supposition supported by in-game events and lore.

Sovereign spent a minimum of two thousand years (from the rachni wars to the present day) preparing the galaxy for the Reapers' return. If the Reapers could return in a measly few years, they could have jumped from Alpha Relay to Widow Relay at any moment during that time period. It renders ME1 absurd, and it makes the Reapers...

If this is the case, then the Reapers were not only lazy, they were pathetic from the start. Sovereign is turned from an intricate planner who was foiled at the last instant into a blithering idiot without an ounce of sense. I refuse to do that to sentient starships that have been harvesting for upward of a billion years.

The operative word in the above quote is "trapped." The Reapers were obviously not trapped in the void. It just took longer for them to travel without a relay.

So, Sovereign spent two thousands years in his attempt to open the relay when Reaper fleet could just fly from dark space to our galaxy in 2-3 years. It's said somewhere in ME2 that Reapers started their journey after Sovereign was destroyed.

But wait? Why didn't Sovereign used Harby's little helpers, the Collectors and called Harby that "there is something wrong with the Citadel" after its first attempt open the relay failed two thousands years ago?

Some things in ME universe makes sense, some doesn't. ME3 just took the things to... new level.

[M920CAIN]

essarr71 wrote...

Youre going to die. No way to avoid it.

Would you say everything up until then is a waste of time?

Ha , touche!

[BeastSaver]

ZLurps wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...

Voiceacted a Husk wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...

This was Vigil's supposition. Why it assumed that the Reapers had no way of traveling from the void between galaxies when they can move from system to system using FTL is flawed logic. Here is the transcribed text from the Watcher's Chamber:

"It is logical to assume the Reapers would leave one of their own behind after each extinction, a sentinel to pave the way for their inevitable return. Like those in dark space, Sovereign probably spent most of the last 50,000 years in a state of hibernation. Periodically, it would wake to analyze the situation. Keeping its existence hidden, it would evaluate the state of the galactic civilization. And, when the time was right, it would signal the Citadel and usher in the next Reaper invasion. But this time the signal failed. The keepers did not respond. Sovereign’s allies were trapped in the void. Alone, it was forced to try and discover what had gone wrong."

Well, yes. It was Vigil's supposition supported by in-game events and lore.

Sovereign spent a minimum of two thousand years (from the rachni wars to the present day) preparing the galaxy for the Reapers' return. If the Reapers could return in a measly few years, they could have jumped from Alpha Relay to Widow Relay at any moment during that time period. It renders ME1 absurd, and it makes the Reapers...

If this is the case, then the Reapers were not only lazy, they were pathetic from the start. Sovereign is turned from an intricate planner who was foiled at the last instant into a blithering idiot without an ounce of sense. I refuse to do that to sentient starships that have been harvesting for upward of a billion years.

The operative word in the above quote is "trapped." The Reapers were obviously not trapped in the void. It just took longer for them to travel without a relay.

So, Sovereign spent two thousands years in his attempt to open the relay when Reaper fleet could just fly from dark space to our galaxy in 2-3 years. It's said somewhere in ME2 that Reapers started their journey after Sovereign was destroyed.

But wait? Why didn't Sovereign used Harby's little helpers, the Collectors and called Harby that "there is something wrong with the Citadel" after its first attempt open the relay failed two thousands years ago?

Some things in ME universe makes sense, some doesn't. ME3 just took the things to... new level.

IMO, in the Mass Effect universe, 2000 years is a long time for organics. Not so much for a Reaper that has been around for millions (if not billions) of years. What would 2000 years be to them? A couple of days? Did they start for the Milky Way galaxy once they realized that the method they had used to start the reaping cycle was not an option this time? Instead of efficiently crushing the center of government and seizing control of the mass relays, they have to do it the "hard" way. Why didn't they head to the Citadel as soon as they arrived at the mass relay in Batarian space? The element of surprise was gone and they had no doubt they would succeed against puny organics. It might take more time, but what is time to them?

[MetioricTest]

dreman9999 wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]I'm going to tellyou this now....Rewatch the first converstions with TIM and Shepard and listen to what TIM is saying. He clearly says"THE COLLECTORS ARE WORKING FOR THE REAPERS".
wHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

...

That the Collectors are working for The Reapers.

I'm not sure what your point is

And they would have into on the reapers tech. The base the collectors used is a key to finding out how to defeat the reapers.

So the best way to learn about the Krogans is to study the Varren?

Nobody has any idea what the "base" the collectors used was. Or even if they had one. There could have been a planet through that relay.

We started the story not knowing what the Collectors were and we went through the Relay to destroy them.

Keeping the tech to fight the Reapers is something TIM brings up right at the minute of the game and is displayed as a bad option from every single squadmate in the game.

The entire story is centered around saving the colonists. Not researching Reapers.

We've also known about the Prothean ruins and it's wealth of information for 30 years. It wasn't a secret, everybody knew about it and it's how Earth got it's advanced tech. Vigil tells us that the Reapers wiped out the Protehans and nobody considered continuing to look though the database on Mars until well over 2 years later when Hackett asks Liara too because she was sitting on her thumbs? Even TIM doesn't. Then Liara finds heaps of useful information within months.

In fact during the conversation on Mars Shepard straight out brings up that he can stop the Reapers and thats why TIM brought him back. Which TIM doesn't even deny, "anybody can destroy." The problems and flaws presented here are arrogance. If the arrogance is meaningless then so is the ****ing scene. And so was bringing Shepard back in the first place.

"The Reapers were always impossible to defeat no matter what" just brutally assaults the previous story... And adds nothing to the new story.

Desperation of folly is better than desperation of inevitablity. Especially in a story where the main characters are presented as denying that inevitability and then instead of failing, succeed through a device they found on the floor that they never considered looking for before.

Modifié par MetioricTest, 21 juillet 2012 - 02:49 .

[Memnon]

Nobody thought the best way to conquer the Spartans was to study the helots ...

[Grub Killer8016]

It should be possible, but all I want is the Refusal Ending with victory involved.

[dreman9999]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But the crucible is not a deus ex. Synthesis is.

All the endings are if you ask me.  But DEM CAN be done right, it's just very hard if you're genre isn't comedy.

Destory is not a deus ex because it was discuces thorgh out the game and made clear how in the cerberus base. The same can beside for control. Added, when you full understand whatthey do, they cause more problems..That is not a deus ex.

[dreman9999]

MetioricTest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]I'm going to tellyou this now....Rewatch the first converstions with TIM and Shepard and listen to what TIM is saying. He clearly says"THE COLLECTORS ARE WORKING FOR THE REAPERS".
wHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

...

That the Collectors are working for The Reapers.

I'm not sure what your point is

And they would have into on the reapers tech. The base the collectors used is a key to finding out how to defeat the reapers.

So the best way to learn about the Krogans is to study the Varren?

Nobody has any idea what the "base" the collectors used was. Or even if they had one. There could have been a planet through that relay.

We started the story not knowing what the Collectors were and we went through the Relay to destroy them.

Keeping the tech to fight the Reapers is something TIM brings up right at the minute of the game and is displayed as a bad option from every single squadmate in the game.

The entire story is centered around saving the colonists. Not researching Reapers.

We've also known about the Prothean ruins and it's wealth of information for 30 years. It wasn't a secret, everybody knew about it and it's how Earth got it's advanced tech. Vigil tells us that the Reapers wiped out the Protehans and nobody considered continuing to look though the database on Mars until well over 2 years later when Hackett asks Liara too because she was sitting on her thumbs? Even TIM doesn't. Then Liara finds heaps of useful information within months.

In fact during the conversation on Mars Shepard straight out brings up that he can stop the Reapers and thats why TIM brought him back. Which TIM doesn't even deny, "anybody can destroy." The problems and flaws presented here are arrogance. If the arrogance is meaningless then so is the ****ing scene. And so was bringing Shepard back in the first place.

"The Reapers were always impossible to defeat no matter what" just brutally assaults the previous story... And adds nothing to the new story.

Desperation of folly is better than desperation of inevitablity. Especially in a story where the main characters are presented as denying that inevitability and then instead of failing, succeed through a device they found on the floor that they never considered looking for before.

Wow, I can't beleive you said that. The collects are the reapers tools and use reapers tools. The collectors even know how to make a reapers.
How is it a bad idea to attack there base if they have info on the reapers and reaper tech?
Add, TIM felt that the collecter were working with the reapers, of couse they would have there tech.

Also, no one stop look throught the prothean arcive on mar. We just did not  know what was there nor could easily translat it. Liara didn't know it was the till after lotsb.

And no Shepard on Mar never said he can beat the reaper in a straigght fight. He said he had to find a way.

I can understand how you don't see this as a story of people trying to servive the impossible. That doen't mean you stop fighting. You just find away to fight the impossible.

[MetioricTest]

Len Lfc wrote...

I understand you, completely, but the fact is, you don't just give up. If the Reapers are going to destroy you no matter what, you still do what it takes, in hopes of a victory, you keep fighting, & you never give up. You die fighting, knowing you did everything you could to stop them. Why on earth would you think it's pointless & decide not to do anything?

This is a really bad defense people keep raising for a number of reasons.

For one Mass Effect was never at any point about heroic deaths in the face of certain annihilation. It was always about overcoming the odds and defeating the enemies. The story focus on one person, Shepard. Who spends most of his time outside of battles. In ME1 he chases after Saren. In ME2 he chases after a Collector Ship while it kills thousands of others in fights he has nothing to do with. In ME3 he runs away while Reapers kill millions of people.

And then at the end of it all, we don't die. We win and actually defeat the Reapers through a device we find on the floor. This isn't an annihilation fantasy, this isn't Lovecraftian hopelessness. In all games we win and we win heroically. It's action.

On top of that Shepard is actually killed... And merely brought back to life by Martin Sheen for the hell of it. There is never any sense or moment of Nihilism in the series. Whether you like the oversimplification nor not: Shepard is a space marine hero who defeats bad guys. Not a proud story of watching the human race try hard but fail.

Saying "There are some great stories about watching people endure an onstoppable defeat" is about as relevant as "There are some great stories about people who were undercover spys during the Cold War." it's true... But it doesn't fit anything.


But more importantly than this is the fact that you're wrong. In the face of certain defeat at the hands of the Reapers you wouldn't "keep fighting just to die." you'd search for a new solution. Instead of telling everyone to build armies and unify fleets (which becomes absolutely idiotic as it would actually AID the Reapers) you'd consider alternatives. Can we flee the Milky Way? Can we do anything to help the next Cycle? Let's search these Protheans ruins we know about since they've been in this situation. Let's have teams of scientists search the galaxy and  do research. Could we make a virus that stops the Reapers? Or do something to space that makes it impossible to fly through?

The story just ignores that because all the characters don't even consider any of it. Even in ME3 the notion of what we're calling "unconventional victory" is revealed to only have been considered by Hackett (not even Shepard or TIM. In fact TIM casually states 'anyone can destroy') after Shepard has already been put into lockdown...

Hackett's actions then are to ask one person, Liara. Who goes "How about that Ruin right next to you that you've known about for 30 years?" goes there herself and finds a weapon within literally a couple of months.

This is absolutely awful storytelling that renders the actions of most of the characters as positive idiots who would have done the world a lot of favors if they just sat back and let other people handle everything except when things needed to be shot at.


Meanwhile if we accept the story in exactly the same way in every detail except that the Reapers are only 100% impossible to defeat because we ****ed everything up.   Then the story, everyone's actions and the crucible become much much stronger. And everything that has happens remains completely relevant.

I honestly don't get why people are denying this or so opposed to it. It neither makes sense nor adds anything to the story to deny it.

[dreman9999]

[quote]essarr71 wrote...

Youre going to die. No way to avoid it.

Would you say everything up until then is a waste of time?[/quote]
Building something that can stop youand everyone from dieing is a waste of time?

[/quote]

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 juillet 2012 - 03:25 .

[incinerator950]

I... the...

Holy ****ing god.

[MetioricTest]

I can't beleive you said that. The collects are the reapers tools and use reapers tools.

So were the Geth.

The collectors even know how to make a reapers.

Which nobody knew until right at the end of the game.

How is it a bad idea to attack there base if they have info on the reapers and reaper tech?

I think "bad idea" is a little harsh. It's just a waste of time and resources. All the effort and money it

Add, TIM felt that the collecter were working with the reapers, of couse they would have there tech.

Also, no one stop look throught the prothean arcive on mar. We just did not  know what was there nor could easily translat it. Liara didn't know it was the till after lotsb.

We translated it 30 years ago. That's how we got our technology. TIM even jokes about how stupid we were for not continuing to search it.

The plot is that we gave up once we thought we found everything we wanted down there... Which makes sense 15 years ago. But after the events of ME1 makes no sense that nobody brought this up.

And no Shepard on Mar never said he can beat the reaper in a straigght fight. He said he had to find a way.

He tells TIM he can beat the Reapers before the crucible is discovered and mentions that TIM brought him back for this purpose. He clearly believes it.

TIM responds that anyone can destroy the Reapers and that Shepard's vision is too limited.

Neither character thinks victory is impossible. Just difficult. And yet neither character did anything towards the "unconventional" until just now. Which makes them both idiots.

Especially TIM who funded and ran so many other projects...

I can understand how you don't see this as a story of people trying to servive the impossible. That doen't mean you stop fighting. You just find away to fight the impossible.

I agree. And the way they did it makes no sense and times and is a bad story if it was impossible from the get go instead of impossible from the start of ME3

[dreman9999]

MetioricTest wrote...

Len Lfc wrote...

I understand you, completely, but the fact is, you don't just give up. If the Reapers are going to destroy you no matter what, you still do what it takes, in hopes of a victory, you keep fighting, & you never give up. You die fighting, knowing you did everything you could to stop them. Why on earth would you think it's pointless & decide not to do anything?

This is a really bad defense people keep raising for a number of reasons.

For one Mass Effect was never at any point about heroic deaths in the face of certain annihilation. It was always about overcoming the odds and defeating the enemies. The story focus on one person, Shepard. Who spends most of his time outside of battles. In ME1 he chases after Saren. In ME2 he chases after a Collector Ship while it kills thousands of others in fights he has nothing to do with. In ME3 he runs away while Reapers kill millions of people.

And then at the end of it all, we don't die. We win and actually defeat the Reapers through a device we find on the floor. This isn't an annihilation fantasy, this isn't Lovecraftian hopelessness. In all games we win and we win heroically. It's action.

On top of that Shepard is actually killed... And merely brought back to life by Martin Sheen for the hell of it. There is never any sense or moment of Nihilism in the series. Whether you like the oversimplification nor not: Shepard is a space marine hero who defeats bad guys. Not a proud story of watching the human race try hard but fail.

Saying "There are some great stories about watching people endure an onstoppable defeat" is about as relevant as "There are some great stories about people who were undercover spys during the Cold War." it's true... But it doesn't fit anything.


But more importantly than this is the fact that you're wrong. In the face of certain defeat at the hands of the Reapers you wouldn't "keep fighting just to die." you'd search for a new solution. Instead of telling everyone to build armies and unify fleets (which becomes absolutely idiotic as it would actually AID the Reapers) you'd consider alternatives. Can we flee the Milky Way? Can we do anything to help the next Cycle? Let's search these Protheans ruins we know about since they've been in this situation. Let's have teams of scientists search the galaxy and  do research. Could we make a virus that stops the Reapers? Or do something to space that makes it impossible to fly through?

The story just ignores that because all the characters don't even consider any of it. Even in ME3 the notion of what we're calling "unconventional victory" is revealed to only have been considered by Hackett (not even Shepard or TIM. In fact TIM casually states 'anyone can destroy') after Shepard has already been put into lockdown...

Hackett's actions then are to ask one person, Liara. Who goes "How about that Ruin right next to you that you've known about for 30 years?" goes there herself and finds a weapon within literally a couple of months.

This is absolutely awful storytelling that renders the actions of most of the characters as positive idiots who would have done the world a lot of favors if they just sat back and let other people handle everything except when things needed to be shot at.


Meanwhile if we accept the story in exactly the same way in every detail except that the Reapers are only 100% impossible to defeat because we ****ed everything up.   Then the story, everyone's actions and the crucible become much much stronger. And everything that has happens remains completely relevant.

I honestly don't get why people are denying this or so opposed to it. It neither makes sense nor adds anything to the story to deny it.

No nihilism? The reapers killed million of people before they even got here. You had to blow up a system full of people just to slow them down. The come in and wipe the floor with everyone. We see families dies off, people go mad, and horror after horror and you say there is no nihilism.

And a hero end for Shepard? Did you se what the choices he had on hand to stop the reapers? No of them were moraly right.

Your still not understand that fight was not point less if you find a way to win. The reapers had a weakness, the allied force used it. That was the entire point. How is that hard to understand?

[dreman9999]

MetioricTest wrote...

I can't beleive you said that. The collects are the reapers tools and use reapers tools.

So were the Geth.

The collectors even know how to make a reapers.

Which nobody knew until right at the end of the game.

How is it a bad idea to attack there base if they have info on the reapers and reaper tech?

I think "bad idea" is a little harsh. It's just a waste of time and resources. All the effort and money it

Add, TIM felt that the collecter were working with the reapers, of couse they would have there tech.

Also, no one stop look throught the prothean arcive on mar. We just did not  know what was there nor could easily translat it. Liara didn't know it was the till after lotsb.

We translated it 30 years ago. That's how we got our technology. TIM even jokes about how stupid we were for not continuing to search it.

The plot is that we gave up once we thought we found everything we wanted down there... Which makes sense 15 years ago. But after the events of ME1 makes no sense that nobody brought this up.

And no Shepard on Mar never said he can beat the reaper in a straigght fight. He said he had to find a way.

He tells TIM he can beat the Reapers before the crucible is discovered and mentions that TIM brought him back for this purpose. He clearly believes it.

TIM responds that anyone can destroy the Reapers and that Shepard's vision is too limited.

Neither character thinks victory is impossible. Just difficult. And yet neither character did anything towards the "unconventional" until just now. Which makes them both idiots.

Especially TIM who funded and ran so many other projects...

I can understand how you don't see this as a story of people trying to servive the impossible. That doen't mean you stop fighting. You just find away to fight the impossible.

I agree. And the way they did it makes no sense and times and is a bad story if it was impossible from the get go instead of impossible from the start of ME3

1. And guess what. from the geth we got a bunch of info on the reapers. Thank you for adding to my point.
2.But we knew the collector had info on the reapers. That alone is enough. The fact they know how to make a reaper is just men illustation that the endever was not pointless.
3.We translated part of it 30 years ago. A small part of it. We been only able to translate same parts of it since.We never gave up. The problem is how prothean communicate.

4.He says he will find a way to beat the reapers. That doesn't mean he can beat the reapers. Re watch the scene again. Also, Shepard is told of the crucible before that scene. The reson TIm responds this way is because he nows also knows about the crucible.
5. IT MAKES SENSE. You find a weakness. You explote it. We don't know how it will defeatthe reapers, bu twe know it can. Having a fleet to support your weapon is not a bad idea.

Modifié par dreman9999, 21 juillet 2012 - 03:41 .

[AresKeith]

they made it possible with the Catalyst too, he said he "controls" the Reapers get rid of him and there weakened like in ME1

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

they made it possible with the Catalyst too, he said he "controls" the Reapers get rid of him and there weakened like in ME1

1. He says he's every reapers at once.
2. control is the option to get  rid of him.
3.Physically doing that is destory.
4. If you saying to do it with out the crucible....MAYBE YOU CAN EXPLINE HOW YOUR GOING TO DO THAT?

[MetioricTest]

dreman9999 wrote...
]No nihilism? The reapers killed million of people before they even got here. You had to blow up a system full of people just to slow them down. The come in and wipe the floor with everyone. We see families dies off, people go mad, and horror after horror and you say there is no nihilism.

Yes. That's not nihilism. That's just war. We also see meaningful sacrifices, allies to the rescue, Reapers dying and then we win.

And a hero end for Shepard? Did you se what the choices he had on hand to stop the reapers? No of them were moraly right.

Only because the endings suck. Synthesis is meant to be good and happy. Destroy is meant to be good with sacrifices.

Control I would rather not get into as it would change the subject.

But in the end the Universe is saved by Shepard! Who is regailed as a hero for eons to come!

Hardly an Annihilation story. Reject is the only one that comes close. And even that is just turning down the "I win" button. Not a heroic last stand. You don't even see people fall.

Your still not understand that fight was not point less if you find a way to win. The reapers had a weakness, the allied force used it. That was the entire point. How is that hard to understand?

I'm not sure what your point is here...

Modifié par MetioricTest, 21 juillet 2012 - 03:46 .