293 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

MetioricTest wrote...

So the best way to learn about the Krogans is to study the Varren?

Nobody has any idea what the "base" the collectors used was. Or even if they had one. There could have been a planet through that relay.

We started the story not knowing what the Collectors were and we went through the Relay to destroy them.

Keeping the tech to fight the Reapers is something TIM brings up right at the minute of the game and is displayed as a bad option from every single squadmate in the game.

The entire story is centered around saving the colonists. Not researching Reapers.

We've also known about the Prothean ruins and it's wealth of information for 30 years. It wasn't a secret, everybody knew about it and it's how Earth got it's advanced tech. Vigil tells us that the Reapers wiped out the Protehans and nobody considered continuing to look though the database on Mars until well over 2 years later when Hackett asks Liara too because she was sitting on her thumbs? Even TIM doesn't. Then Liara finds heaps of useful information within months.

In fact during the conversation on Mars Shepard straight out brings up that he can stop the Reapers and thats why TIM brought him back. Which TIM doesn't even deny, "anybody can destroy." The problems and flaws presented here are arrogance. If the arrogance is meaningless then so is the ****ing scene. And so was bringing Shepard back in the first place.

"The Reapers were always impossible to defeat no matter what" just brutally assaults the previous story... And adds nothing to the new story.

Desperation of folly is better than desperation of inevitablity. Especially in a story where the main characters are presented as denying that inevitability and then instead of failing, succeed through a device they found on the floor that they never considered looking for before.

1.  Not sure where that tangent is going, so I'll just pass on it.

2.  This is true, we were initially looking to get to their homeworld.

3.  After the fact, it indeed is, however, regardless of who you have with you when saving the base is mentioned, one of them will agree with TIM.

4.  Actually, TIM could care less about saving the colonists:  Horizon ring any bells?  He wants to stop the Collectors, and through them the Reapers.  Since he's presumably never been through the Omega 4 Relay, our crew is the first that's ever done it and come back, he has no way to know what we'll find.

5.  Again, you can find a PDA in the Tram Control Room that explains that a new site has recently been found.  Assuming that the information on the Crucible came from the same location as the other information is just plain not paying attention to what's being presented.

6.  I just played this section yesterday, and I don't recall a conversation that says he will stop them.  He reassures Liara with "we'll stop them together", which is the same thing as telling somebody who's just had a family member in a terrible accident that "things will be OK".  How do you know things will be OK?  You don't, but you try to ease the suffering of somebody else by telling them that.  Everybody knows it's a lie, but if it makes the person feel a little better about it, it's a "good lie"?

7.  Really?  So we can disregard "The Reapers indeed did come 50,000 years ago and wipe out the Protheans, and every 50,000 years before that."?    So Vigil's information was useless, and should be disregarded, except that, hey, without it's information, we're not getting into the Citadel to stop Saren/Sovereign.

8.  The main characters are the only ones, through all three games, that keep insisting that the threat is real.  The supporting cast, Council, Alliance et al, are the ones that deny anything, and they can't wait for Sovereign to die so that they can try to find a way to deny that it was real too.

[dreman9999]

MetioricTest wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]No nihilism? The reapers killed million of people before they even got here. You had to blow up a system full of people just to slow them down. The come in and wipe the floor with everyone. We see families dies off, people go mad, and horror after horror and you say there is no nihilism.

Yes. That's not nihilism. That's just war. We also see meaningful sacrifices, allies to the rescue, Reapers dying and then we win.

And a hero end for Shepard? Did you se what the choices he had on hand to stop the reapers? No of them were moraly right.

Only because the endings suck. Synthesis is meant to be good and happy. Destroy is meant to be good with sacrifices.

Control I would rather not get into as it would change the subject.

But in the end the Universe is saved by Shepard! Who is regailed as a hero for eons to come!

Hardly an Annihilation story. Reject is the only one that comes close. And even that is just turning down the "I win" button. Not a heroic last stand. You don't even see people fall.

Your still not understand that fight was not point less if you find a way to win. The reapers had a weakness, the allied force used it. That was the entire point. How is that hard to understand?

I'm not sure what your point is here...

1.I'm sorry. We were nearly wiped out by the end of the game. And we win at a a heavy cost. Sure we see the best of the world in ME3, but we still see the worst. And even more so in ME2. me3 HAS 
nihilismis in it but it's plot is not just oabout that at all. It's up to theplayer what morals and themes they take from it.

2.Then your not getting the endings. The choices are all moraly bad onperpuse to put the player into maral conflict. You still win at a horrible cost. And Synthesis is not a good ending. It's one where everyone is brain wash and don't know it.

3. The point is you not understand that they are beating the reapers with ther weakness and that does not make the plot bad.

[ZLurps]

BeastSaver wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...

Voiceacted a Husk wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...

This was Vigil's supposition. Why it assumed that the Reapers had no way of traveling from the void between galaxies when they can move from system to system using FTL is flawed logic. Here is the transcribed text from the Watcher's Chamber:

"It is logical to assume the Reapers would leave one of their own behind after each extinction, a sentinel to pave the way for their inevitable return. Like those in dark space, Sovereign probably spent most of the last 50,000 years in a state of hibernation. Periodically, it would wake to analyze the situation. Keeping its existence hidden, it would evaluate the state of the galactic civilization. And, when the time was right, it would signal the Citadel and usher in the next Reaper invasion. But this time the signal failed. The keepers did not respond. Sovereign’s allies were trapped in the void. Alone, it was forced to try and discover what had gone wrong."

Well, yes. It was Vigil's supposition supported by in-game events and lore.

Sovereign spent a minimum of two thousand years (from the rachni wars to the present day) preparing the galaxy for the Reapers' return. If the Reapers could return in a measly few years, they could have jumped from Alpha Relay to Widow Relay at any moment during that time period. It renders ME1 absurd, and it makes the Reapers...

If this is the case, then the Reapers were not only lazy, they were pathetic from the start. Sovereign is turned from an intricate planner who was foiled at the last instant into a blithering idiot without an ounce of sense. I refuse to do that to sentient starships that have been harvesting for upward of a billion years.

The operative word in the above quote is "trapped." The Reapers were obviously not trapped in the void. It just took longer for them to travel without a relay.

So, Sovereign spent two thousands years in his attempt to open the relay when Reaper fleet could just fly from dark space to our galaxy in 2-3 years. It's said somewhere in ME2 that Reapers started their journey after Sovereign was destroyed.

But wait? Why didn't Sovereign used Harby's little helpers, the Collectors and called Harby that "there is something wrong with the Citadel" after its first attempt open the relay failed two thousands years ago?

Some things in ME universe makes sense, some doesn't. ME3 just took the things to... new level.

IMO, in the Mass Effect universe, 2000 years is a long time for organics. Not so much for a Reaper that has been around for millions (if not billions) of years. What would 2000 years be to them? A couple of days? Did they start for the Milky Way galaxy once they realized that the method they had used to start the reaping cycle was not an option this time? Instead of efficiently crushing the center of government and seizing control of the mass relays, they have to do it the "hard" way. Why didn't they head to the Citadel as soon as they arrived at the mass relay in Batarian space? The element of surprise was gone and they had no doubt they would succeed against puny organics. It might take more time, but what is time to them?

Well, the problem has been there since ME2 and I can understand people trying to fix these thing, I personally never cared about it that much, never tried to make any theory how it could be explained it just is that these things happen. That said, I don't have anything against people making up possible explanations, as long they aren't sold people as canon.

What you say about not going to Citadel first when Reapers came out from dark space, or going to Citadel after taking over the whole Batarian space, it's something where nonsense factor starts to get disturbing. In practice, we only won in ME3 because Reaper's were morons after all. I guess it happened because ME3 was probably just 3/4 parts what was planned, but I digress.

[TK514]

ZLurps wrote...

What you say about not going to Citadel first when Reapers came out from dark space, or going to Citadel after taking over the whole Batarian space, it's something where nonsense factor starts to get disturbing. In practice, we only won in ME3 because Reaper's were morons after all. I guess it happened because ME3 was probably just 3/4 parts what was planned, but I digress.

As a tangent, I agree with this.  The entire goal of Sovereign and Saren in ME 1 was to open the relay to dark space and take over the Citadel.  Then Arrival comes around, and they're trying to get to the special Alpha Relay that lets them jump right to the Citadel or anywhere else.

Then ME 3 hits and suddenly they have no interest in the Citadel at all until TIM spills the beans.  What possible reason could they have for NOT going to the Citadel first and turning off the Mass Relay system?  I could understand it if, once they attacked the Batarians the Council suddenly said "Oh crap.  Shepard was right, which means everything he told us after the Saren incedent was true!  We need to abandon or move the Citadel immediately, or we're all dead!"  If the Council races had actively done something to prevent the Reapers from finding it, but no, they just leave it right where it is, unprotected and apparently ready to hand it overat a moment's notice.  Frankly, the Citadel should have been the very last place any sane, responsible government  would allow people to go.

[yukon fire]

Should have played out like the Battle off Samar

[Blueprotoss]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

 Depends if by conventional victory you mean:

-Crucible-less victory or
-Actual conventional victory

The latter, yeah, I can see that being impossible.  But the former, not so much.  But yes I agree, the plot would have ben better if the tone was that we had simply screwed up too much to win w/o a deus ex machina.

Also, for a plot that used deus ex machina but DIDN'T SUCK, see star control 2.  It was very similar to ME3's story, and had a DEM, but made sense, and was actually well written.

ME1 actually had a Deus Ex Machina with Vigil's assistance while the Crucible wasn't because it explained in the beginning of ME3.

Stornskar wrote...

Nobody thought the best way to conquer the Spartans was to study the helots ...

Actually it was the study of the Spartan hoplites.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 23 juillet 2012 - 09:34 .

[3DandBeyond]

Blueprotoss wrote...

ME1 actually had a Deus Ex Machina with Vigil's assistance while the Crucible wasn't because it explained in the beginning of ME3.

Vigil could be a minor DeM, but the crucible is not.  Vigil works ok because even though he does offer one solution he is not totally contrived and doesn't drop in from nowhere.  It's logical that you could run into VIs because they exist in ME.  It's also logical the protheans might have known how to access the Citadel's functions since they shut off the signal to get the reapers to come.  Vigil has a data disk to access the functions.  It doesn't solve everything but since Saren went to Ilos for a reason and Shepard was after Saren well it's logical they'd find something there.

By contrast the star kid is a DeM because he drops in from out of nowhere to solve things with the citadel by joining it with the crucible.  He is a god from the machine, but not a really good one because he solves his problem and not the galaxy's and Shepard's.

The Crucible is not explained as to purpose since its purpose is not known.  It is known from the beginning of ME3, but no one knows what it is or how it works at all but they chase after it like it has all the answers.  It is a MacGuffin.

But actually these labels don't matter that much.  The only questions that need to be asked and answered about them are do they fit in the game and stories and is there too much reliance on them to fill holes in the plot?  For Vigil, it fits the plot and the game and stories and it's not a big part of it all or a big issue.  The crucible and the kid are huge, don't fit, and are relied on to be the plot, which the crucible could fit with, but the kid does not.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 juillet 2012 - 10:04 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

That's why I think there should be an ending where...you lose. Even reject/refuse breaks the cycle.

But that's what happens when they have to acknowledge newcomers, the NEW FANS GUYS. A GREAT POINT OF ENTRY, y' know. And you can't disappoint them making even slightly difficult to defeat the reapers, at least require some certain amount of EMS (although the worst ending really suck ass lol) to make it even possible to destroy them because they might sell it and THAT'S BAD GUYS. ONE NEW COPY EA LOST TO USED MARKETING.

[Blueprotoss]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

That's why I think there should be an ending where...you lose. Even reject/refuse breaks the cycle.

But that's what happens when they have to acknowledge newcomers, the NEW FANS GUYS. A GREAT POINT OF ENTRY, y' know. And you can't disappoint them making even slightly difficult to defeat the reapers, at least require some certain amount of EMS (although the worst ending really suck ass lol) to make it even possible to destroy them because they might sell it and THAT'S BAD GUYS. ONE NEW COPY EA LOST TO USED MARKETING.

Agreed but ironically the small uproar are still from the older "fans".

[3DandBeyond]

From the ME wiki, a codex entry in ME.

Reaper Vulnerabilities

Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.

In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.

The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.

The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.

Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.

[Kileyan]

The whole design of the game, the assets, military level, all of them represent quite a bit of work put into building up to an epic battle.

Bioware themselves admit over and over that they do not do extra work, put things into games that aren't pertinent to the story. Ask any Bioware dev why your hero can't jump, swim, ride a horse or vehicle.  The dev will tell you that their dev time is very limited and they do not include anything that isn't pertinent to the story.

All those quests, dialog, choices to build an army and fleet, an entire game around building this awesome armada, a whole mplay game around getting rating and it was all thrown away in the last 10 minutes. Does anyone really believe this ending was intended, and not a time crunch choice. All this talk, demeaning fans and hiding behind art, and the ending was designed by bean counters.

The ending should have been huge starship battles, watching our covert ops sabotage, our Elcor heavies march through reaperized bad guys, our Dreadnaught ships blowing stuff up while taking blows and valiantly driving forward.. Win or lose by our assets we earned and found. That was the ending planned, Bioware doesn't include these kind of things for no reason, they never do such a large amount of work for no reason. Yet at the end they ignore it all for 3 colors.

This lack of a conventional battle ending was done because of time, show a huge CGI battle, or show a color on a starmap as the ending. Which was cheaper and faster?

Short version, conventional victory was possible, that was the reason to collect all that crap. It only became impossible when it became financially impossible to give us those endings.

[Blueprotoss]

3DandBeyond wrote...

From the ME wiki, a codex entry in ME.

Reaper Vulnerabilities

Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.

In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.

The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.

The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.

Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.

Reapers can be killed when the odds don't favor them while the fact that they aren't immortal isn't a factor since the Protheans should have won by your logic 

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

 Depends if by conventional victory you mean:

-Crucible-less victory or
-Actual conventional victory

The latter, yeah, I can see that being impossible.  But the former, not so much.  But yes I agree, the plot would have ben better if the tone was that we had simply screwed up too much to win w/o a deus ex machina.

Also, for a plot that used deus ex machina but DIDN'T SUCK, see star control 2.  It was very similar to ME3's story, and had a DEM, but made sense, and was actually well written.

ME1 actually had a Deus Ex Machina with Vigil's assistance while the Crucible wasn't because it explained in the beginning of ME3.

Explained? 

Yeah, if you say so. I mean, we didn't receive any sort of explanation and still don't have one even with a DLC that could have solved that proble. 

[Ulous]

I think it's fairly obvious that conventional victory could be possible, or at least the Reapers believe it could be, why else would they use indoctrination? If they were so sure they could just crush anything in their path then why do they need it? Because the truth is that either through experience or speculation at least one cycle has or could create weaponry that could rival their own, therefore indoctrination is their ace card, their way of destroying the enemy from within........ But how long then is it until someone indoctrinates or controls them? The crucible being the most obvious sign of this, it is no wonder they may want another solution, because they know it's only a matter of time before they get crushed under foot.

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

 Depends if by conventional victory you mean:

-Crucible-less victory or
-Actual conventional victory

The latter, yeah, I can see that being impossible.  But the former, not so much.  But yes I agree, the plot would have ben better if the tone was that we had simply screwed up too much to win w/o a deus ex machina.

Also, for a plot that used deus ex machina but DIDN'T SUCK, see star control 2.  It was very similar to ME3's story, and had a DEM, but made sense, and was actually well written.

ME1 actually had a Deus Ex Machina with Vigil's assistance while the Crucible wasn't because it explained in the beginning of ME3.

Explained? 

Yeah, if you say so. I mean, we didn't receive any sort of explanation and still don't have one even with a DLC that could have solved that proble. 

Vigil uploaded a virus to prevent Sovreigns access and stunned him for the final blow.  The Crucible isn't a problem at all just like how some people previously jumped the gun on Harbinger.

[Blueprotoss]

Ulous wrote...

I think it's fairly obvious that conventional victory could be possible, or at least the Reapers believe it could be, why else would they use indoctrination? If they were so sure they could just crush anything in their path then why do they need it? Because the truth is that either through experience or speculation at least one cycle has or could create weaponry that could rival their own, therefore indoctrination is their ace card, their way of destroying the enemy from within........ But how long then is it until someone indoctrinates or controls them? The crucible being the most obvious sign of this, it is no wonder they may want another solution, because they know it's only a matter of time before they get crushed under foot.

Everything is afraid of death just like how the synthetics like the Geth are.   The Reapers ace is their numbers based on harvesting organics in this cycle and every previous cycle, which is what the Protheans eventually lost to based on their sacrafices of worlds and races.  Ironically nobody knew that the Crucible was Reaper related until the Reaper's leader offically showed up at the end of ME3.  An example of a conventional victory or somewhat one would be the next cycle defeating the Reapers from the Refusal ending.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 30 juillet 2012 - 07:50 .

[Ulous]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Everything is afraid of death just like how the synthetics like the Geth are.   The Reapers ace is their numbers based on harvesting organics in this cycle and every previous cycle, which is what the Protheans eventually lost to based on their sacrafices of worlds and races.  Ironically nobody knew that the Crucible was Reaper related until the Reaper's leader offically showed up at the end of ME3.

Indoctrination played a big part in their downfall as well, Both Javik and Vigil pointed this out, any chance they might have had of making a super weapon or organising a counter attack were and would have always been thwarted by indoctrinated agents.

[Blueprotoss]

Ulous wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Everything is afraid of death just like how the synthetics like the Geth are.   The Reapers ace is their numbers based on harvesting organics in this cycle and every previous cycle, which is what the Protheans eventually lost to based on their sacrafices of worlds and races.  Ironically nobody knew that the Crucible was Reaper related until the Reaper's leader offically showed up at the end of ME3.

Indoctrination played a big part in their downfall as well, Both Javik and Vigil pointed this out, any chance they might have had of making a super weapon or organising a counter attack were and would have always been thwarted by indoctrinated agents.

I didn't say that indoctrination wasn't a part of the plan while it still part of the resource management that allows the Reapers to gain more troops whether as husks, Reaper contruction, or sabotage agents.

[MetioricTest]

Ulous wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Everything is afraid of death just like how the synthetics like the Geth are.   The Reapers ace is their numbers based on harvesting organics in this cycle and every previous cycle, which is what the Protheans eventually lost to based on their sacrafices of worlds and races.  Ironically nobody knew that the Crucible was Reaper related until the Reaper's leader offically showed up at the end of ME3.

Indoctrination played a big part in their downfall as well, Both Javik and Vigil pointed this out, any chance they might have had of making a super weapon or organising a counter attack were and would have always been thwarted by indoctrinated agents.

Much more than that.

They didn't have control over the Relays and every world they left behind to "buy time" gave the Reapers billions of husks. Insuring them doom. A slow doom but a doom