293 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

I find it funny that this is still a topic.....having replayed the trilogy, twice in the past two weeks....the fact that conventional victory NOT being a possibility, has been foreshadowed since the very first game.....

Modifié par Mcfly616, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:29 .

[NoirCZ]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

NoirCZ wrote...

I wasnt talking about Geth and EDI hacking reapers, but about them coordinating the fire, like EDI did with the reaper on Ranoch, or like EDI helped with targeting the THANIX missiles.
And about reapers sitting in place... it sure looked like they did in the cinematics... even if not, codex said that turians were able ot outmaneuver reapers at least partially. Plus with the asari working on reaper code to predict their movement...

Another question... what the hell are THANIX missiles anyway? I thought that THANIX cannon was a gun developed from reaper tech, shooting stream of molten metal or something... how do you put that onto missile? I wonder if the normal THANIX cannon fire can be countered... I mean normal torpedo from main gun (gauss gun?) can be shot down by GARDIAN lasers...

The codex about that also stated that the advantages in maneuverability were marginal at best. 

The reapers adapt to tactics and exploit them.  Its brought up in the codex and by javik.  They're hyper intelligent synthetic lifeforms.  they're not just a ship, each of them is a nation.  When you attack earth its a surprise assault against a defensive fleet thats busy harvesting humans from earth to the citadel for reaper creation.  They dont actually "stay in place" for long.  If you have low EMS you see more of the reapers' battle superiority in the initial assault and the docking of the crucible.  sadly bioware didnt invest the time to give us a really complicated space battle to play with (though there are remnants within the game of prototypes for it)  In any place, every notation by the turians for every small victory ends with powerful losses that render the tactics useless for further combat.  The reapers are toying wtih us.  Asari trying to predict thier movements is grasping at best and doomed for failure at worse.  The reapers are living beings with intelligence and firepower far beyond what we're capable of. 

We just dont get to see it because ea rushed the game so bioware was forced to leave it up to our imagination by describing it in codex.  We didnt get to see the big battle so abunch of people are just assuming that it was winnable because of how other battles in the game have went (Collectors, Destroyers).  Maybe bioware can do a "reaper big fat battle" dlc where they show us how terrifying reapers are in combat.  A Destroyer isnt a true reaper, it doesnt have the intelligence, size, firepower, or defenses of its greater bretheren.  We never get to see a fleet get decimated by actual reapers, we just fight thier grunts and infantry.  Maybe we'll get a DLC where people who didnt replay ME1 enough times to understand what was going on in the confusing space battle at the end will get the chance to see a real reaper in action and witness how devastatingly powerful and unstoppable they are when they're not practically ignoring us.  (I'm really bummed that we didnt encounter more indoctrinated people throughout the game, thats the reapers bread and butter.  that and being huge.)

Yes it is a surprise attack, thats where the fire coordinated by Geth and EDI would be most helpful. As you also said, destroyers and harversters are not sovergin class capital ships... and as far as I know, it is never said how many of those there are, it always said that reapers are vast in numbers, but they also obviously count in harvesters, destroyers and such which can be taken out by several frigates if I recall it right. Javic also admited that they were not that diverse which I guess made their tactics a bit... unified. And nope, never saw the low EMS, always went in with 6k to 8k EMS. I am not saying it should be "pew pew we won, lets go home" I just say that allied forced would put up much better fight even if it would pyrrhic vitory. Which is anyway a WHAT IF scenario. Then again, maybe that is what it was almost like in the rejection ending. Then again everyone is general after the battle.
I always wondered, if Citadel is Reaper station, why they did not brainwash the whole station.  Then again not really that much info on that either. I guess it would be deserted pretty quick if the indoctrination is always so obvious as seeing "ghosts" and hearing voices. Then again one would think that Saren would notice something like that. Or maybe the code from Vigil in ME1 disabled that as well.

[MetioricTest]

The discovery of the Atomic Bomb was an I win button for America, are you saying World War 2 was a bad story?

What? I don't even know where to respond to that. It has nothing to do with anything.

A "Device" story isnt an inherently bad concept.  Also as an asside, claiming "space magic" is ridiculous when Mass Effect is built on space magic.  

Biotics, Indoctrination, Hiveminds, Psychokinesis, Mind Melding, Aliens that can live for a thousand years, on and instantaneous information transfer via touch.  That's a good one.  Mass effect is full of magic.  Most of this they dont even bother hinting at explanations for, yet a wave of energy that can rewrite DNA or destroy constructs is magic?  Its only a hop skip and a jump away from how actual nuclear radiation works.  (Mutations caused by radiation is a real thing, dna being rewritten, ect)

I never said anything about space magic o_O

And anyway I disagree but I'm not sure if I want to go into it here. Feels like a completely seperate topic.

Short version: While you're right in the strictest sense, you're wrong in your point. Everything might be "space magic" but it's all about execution, purpose and explanation.

Quick bad example: Joker walks in with a gun that turns Shepard into a tortoise. Shepard spends the rest of the game eating lettuce.

That's still "also space magic." but it's asinine, unexplained and pointless. When people say "space magic." this is what they mean. It's derogatory.

heres the problem with your theory... the 3rd game is all about
that we unified way too late.  If, in the 1st game they had listened we
wouldve had more time to prepare instead of a last minute, last ditch
effort. Under the cercumstances of you needing to unify the galaxy
DURING the invasion of the reapers, yeah it's perfectly acceptable that a
conventional victory is off the table. I'm sorry, but that was the
point of the last game, it appears that you missed it.

Didn't miss it at all. I agree with you entirely in every way. I'm saying if conventional victory was always an impossibility from the start it ruins the first two games. A lot of people of people are quite passionately saying it always was no matter what and I think that tarnishes the first two installments.

I'm sorru bit that was the point of the thread, It appears that you missed it/

[Jamie9]

No it doesn't. Have you ever read/seen a tragedy?

Just because you lost doesn't make the journey pointless. The fact that the heroes still tried, knowing they might fail, makes them stronger characters.

[xsdob]

Shoulda Woulda Coulda but that didn't happen, races were parinoid of eachother even in ME1 and played politics instead of responding to the threat.

It was pretty clear we were screwed all the way back in ME2 with the council not doing anything to prepare for the reapers.

Had saren reported soverigns existence 20 to 30 years ago during revelations instead of plotting to use it to make everyone pay for humiliating the turians by making them spare the humans during the first contact war we probably could have won.

That didn't happen, we didn't prepare enough, and we reap what we sow, I blame drew for planting the seeds and chris and mike for following his vision for the endings as best they could.

[MetioricTest]

Jamie9 wrote...

No it doesn't. Have you ever read/seen a tragedy?

Just because you lost doesn't make the journey pointless. The fact that the heroes still tried, knowing they might fail, makes them stronger characters.

Sure it can. If that's how tell the story and if you tell a story like that you put the focus on the heroes, the futility and the inevitability.

But ME1 and ME2 never did that. The focus is on choices/consequences and drama.

The anger at the council denying the Reapers.
The fate of the Rachni.
Who survives Virmire.
Do you trust Cerberus?
Who survives the suicide mission.
Does the galaxy unify their fleets.

And many more. If these are all ultimately irrelevant and meaningless, the way they were presented becomes comical and loses a lot of meaning. In fact some of them make me go against Shepard.

If the Reapers are unbeatable no matter what I don't WANT them to unify the fleets. That's now idiotic. I don't want them to prepare by building armies. That's idiotic.

I want them to fund research programs and have scientists round the clock looking for solutions.

Etc etc.

We failed to stop the Reapers because various characters and people of importance made mistakes, were imperfect, were arrogant and it all added up to bad consequences is more powerful than we failed to stop the Reapers because we would no matter what.

And all the friends/enemies you make along the way in minor ways such as Toombs.

The story also focuses on things like guilt over the obliteration of 300,000 Batarians thanks to Shepard's actions.


But on top of all that, thanks to the crucible even ME3 isn't a tragedy. Because you don't fail, you succeed.

So I disagree entirely on every level

[Jamie9]

@MetioricTest

I'm not even going to argue my case. I can tell it's not going to matter.

[chemiclord]

To the OP:

That's largely been my take on it... it's not that the Reapers could never be defeated conventionally... but that thanks to the leaders of the galaxy burying their heads in the sand and being more concerned with their "personal squabbles" than the building threat on the horizon... it put the galaxy behind the barrel.

They basically wasted the opportunity that they were given, an advantage that no other cycle had, because hey, it was so much more important to keep feeding old grudges and maintain the status quo.

[MetioricTest]

^ Exactly so

Jamie9 wrote...

@MetioricTest

I'm not even going to argue my case. I can tell it's not going to matter.

Please do. I'm curious to what your case is.

[The Spamming Troll]

im just reading through this thread thinking about how dissapointing i think parts of ME3 are. it really blows my mind that ME3 turned out to be a clunker.

how is that possible?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:31 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

MetioricTest wrote...

I disagree. It was about working towards defeating the Reapers. You stopped Saren because would lead the Reapers to defeat you, you stopped the Collectors because they were Reaper allies. You battled Soverign/Harbinger and delayed them to defeat the Reapers.

Saren was trying to reawaken the reapers, it was a story about stopping saren.  it wasnt a story about defeating the reapers.  Those are different concepts.  Trying to stop a cultist from opening a gate to hell and fighting satan's minions are two different stories.  Trying to stop a terrorist plot and fighting a war in the middle east are two seperate stories as well.  They arent the same thing.

The geth were reaper allies, that doesnt mean it was a story about the reapers, neither were the collectors.  ME2 was a story about stopping the collectors, your actions in that battle had absolutely zero impact on the reapers, ergo the story wasnt about them.  they were "on hold".

MetioricTest wrote...

If the entire time actually defeating the Reapers when they turn up is compeletely impossible... All this stuff that came before it was pointless. And then as such, becomes a pointless story. I can't buy into the drama and tension of choices and consequences of ME1 and ME2 if I decide that there are none.

Lets look at the choices you get to make in ME1::
x Kill the Raccni: it wasnt about using them against the reapers it was about the ethical debate of whether it was right to genocide a species.
x Ashley or Kaiden: Losing one character or another, nothing to do with the reapers, you were destroying a breeding facility.
x Killing Wrex: You have no idea at this point in the game or inclination that saving Wrex would cause him to become king of the krogans and help fight the reapers.  this is about whether you can trust this friend to shoot you or listen to you.
o Save the Council: This is an ethical debate but it also has to do with stopping a reaper.  Sacrifice human lives to save the council or hold them off to help fight a reaper.  an actual choice that has to do with your point.  Thats one for ME1 and the only one.
o Nominating Counciler: This was about picking a military or political representative for humanity.  This was a choice made after fighting one reaper and avoiding all out conflict with the reapers, it was in preperation for the innevitable arrival of the reapers and what kind of influence you wanted on the council.


Wow only two choices about whether you can stop the reapers or not.  And they came at the very end of the game.  Man I can feel the unwraveling narrative caused by me3 already!!!  :-/


Howabout some ME2?
x Activate Legion or not: Has nothing to do with the reapers
x Awaken Grunt or not: Has nothing to do with the reapers, only tie to the main plot is that he might have information about the collectors in his brain, he doesnt.
x Spare that guy from Subject Zero: Has nothing to do with the reapers.
x Save the Workers or kill Vido: Has nothing to do with the reapers
o Save the Gray Box: Implied to have something to do with the reapers, ends up meaning nothing important, might be tied to Leviathan DLC, might not.
x Spare Jacob's dad: No impact, nothing to do with the reapers.
x Spare Maelin: Nothing to do with the reapers
o Salvage Genophage Cure: Set up to be an ethical debate, but previous conversations with the krogan leader imply that it may be useful later to make the krogan powerful again and a military asset.
o Rewrite Heretics: Another ethical debate, felt like a decision about whether rewriting the heretics would lead to the geth siding with the reapers again later on.  It didnt.  didnt matter but should have.
x Prove Tali's innocense: Has nothing to do with the reapers.
o Support Retaking Quarian Homeworld: Big flag implying how the quarian and geth storyline would converge, decision driven by idea of aquiring assistence against reapers.
x Save Morinth or Samara: Nothing to do with the reapers
o Save the Collector Base: Was supposed to be used to help prepare for the reapers, didnt ammount to anything.
o Reinstate Spectre Status: Would help Shepard acquire information on defeating the reapers.  Didnt.  instead it gave him deligation powers in 3.
o Continue Project Overlord: Implied it would have had some impact on further union with the geth for fighting the reapers, it didnt.
o Kill the Shadow Broker: Use his resources to help prepare for the reapers.  Ends up being useless.
o Stop the Reapers in the Batarian System: Delays them for a few months, because it just added a false layer ontop of an existing problem that it ties its own knot on it ends up being a false impact.

Most of what you did in ME2 either got used in ways that allowed shepard to deploy the crucible (requesting turian ships' aide, aquiring support from geth and/or quarian fleets) or didnt matter at all.  The Crucible doesnt disolve any of these choices because you still used that military force to launch an opperation that would have been impossible without it.  Because ME3's crucible would have been impossible to activate without the turian and geth/quarian fleet backing you up it means ME3's plot hinges on these plotlines from 2, ergo it does not dissolve 2's plot.

MetioricTest wrote...

And I feel that the point and purpose of Shepard's attitude and the attitudes of everyone he mets become tarnished if they don't mean anything.

But they do mean something.  Whats the difference between using them to shoot weapons and using them to protect and move a giant bomb?  Its the same basic thing.

MetioricTest wrote...

Why is it displayed as a bad thing that the races wouldn't come together out of fear of their homeworlds. I don't blame them, buy your people some more time instead of sending out an entire unified fleet to be crushed in one blow because victory is impossible. Not helping other becomes an absolutely superb option.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Your first sentence is completely contrary to the rest of the paragraph.

MetioricTest wrote...

I'll also repeat that if conventional victory was always an impossbility, it was idiotic of Shepard and co to constantly try to get everyone to build armies and prepare for them. Instead they should have recruited scientists and rearched every promising corner into some kind of virus or pulse to defeat the Reapers.

They found one, it was called the crucible.  it can either send out a pulse to defeat the reapers or a virus that rewrites thier brains.  Theres a third function but no one likes the green ending.

MetioricTest wrote...

Shepard's actions and the game's narrative only work if conventional victory was possible. The story is also morally much stronger for it. And so is the crucible. The crucible as the desperation fallback option because of our folly works quite well. The crucible as our only option because nothing else matters... Well it's kinda lame.

You're saying that a war is only worth fighting if you win it?  So every loser in a war should have just given up because thier side wouldnt have won anyways?  Its only interesting if you get to win at the end, that's what you're saying right?  Thats kinda lame.  (actually its absolutely lame, and super childish.)

MetioricTest wrote...

I honestly think if people here replayed ME1 and ME2 again but kept in mind that conventional victory is absolutely impossible and none of the actions/choices matter... They'd realize how bad they've just made the game (and the crucible when ME3 comes round) become... Needlessly.

ME1 wasnt about defeating the reapers it was about preventing them.  Soverign flat out told you that you would be unable to defeat them, thats why shepard's entire journey was about preventing them, because there'd be no way to stop them once they arrived.  ME1's main questline was called RACE AGAINST TIME because it was a desperate act to prevent a greater force from destroying everything.  You cant defeat them, the protheans couldnt defeat them. 

If it was about killing the reapers shepard would have told the council to send word to all fleets in the galaxy to head to the citadel and battle all the reapers at once.  

Shepard didnt do that, the entire point of ME1 was to stop cthulhu from showing up because theres no way to defeat him and his friends once they show up.  Thats the entire point of the game and what all of shepard's and anderson's actions were about.


ME2 was about stopping the collectors from destroying humanity.  It wasnt about the reapers.  It was an element brought in and closed off within the same story, the state of the reapers did not change from the beginning of the game to the end of the game.  it had nothing to do with them.

[The Spamming Troll]

^
your good at multi quoting.

i always **** it up.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:42 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

MetioricTest wrote...

The discovery of the Atomic Bomb was an I win button for America, are you saying World War 2 was a bad story?

What? I don't even know where to respond to that. It has nothing to do with anything.

It's a sinfully simple allegory.  The crucible is to the atomic bomb what the war with the reapers was to World War 2.  

American Scientists discovered how to create a bomb capable of destroying major cities in an instant, this was detonated over Hiroshima to end world war 2.
Liara discovered how to create a bomb capable of destroying the reapers all at once.  This was detonated over planet earth to end the war with the reapers.

how is that hard to understand?  Its the exact same thing.  ME3 is a World War 2 story.  Casey hudson said this like a million times before the game came out.  The crucible is even shaped like the atomic bomb that ended world war 2.  I recognized what they were going for the instant I saw the Crucible (its a bomb) because I know my history.

MetioricTest wrote...

A "Device" story isnt an inherently bad concept.  Also as an asside, claiming "space magic" is ridiculous when Mass Effect is built on space magic.  

Biotics, Indoctrination, Hiveminds, Psychokinesis, Mind Melding, Aliens that can live for a thousand years, on and instantaneous information transfer via touch.  That's a good one.  Mass effect is full of magic.  Most of this they dont even bother hinting at explanations for, yet a wave of energy that can rewrite DNA or destroy constructs is magic?  Its only a hop skip and a jump away from how actual nuclear radiation works.  (Mutations caused by radiation is a real thing, dna being rewritten, ect)

I never said anything about space magic o_O

And anyway I disagree but I'm not sure if I want to go into it here. Feels like a completely seperate topic.

Short version: While you're right in the strictest sense, you're wrong in your point. Everything might be "space magic" but it's all about execution, purpose and explanation.

Quick bad example: Joker walks in with a gun that turns Shepard into a tortoise. Shepard spends the rest of the game eating lettuce.

That's still "also space magic." but it's asinine, unexplained and pointless. When people say "space magic." this is what they mean. It's derogatory.

Except they're wrong because its not really any of those things.  The crucible detonates a wave of enery that destroys all life, destroys all sinthetics, infects the reapers with a shepard mental construct, or rewrites DNA and synthetic code towards a purpose laid out by a previous species (whichever one added the synthesis function to the crucible, it was something the catalyst only learns after docking, he tells you exactly that)  People who say space magic are actually dumb people who like to jump on bandwagons because they're not capable of critical thinking.  (Videogame fans are on average really really dumb)

MetioricTest wrote...

heres the problem with your theory... the 3rd game is all about
that we unified way too late.  If, in the 1st game they had listened we
wouldve had more time to prepare instead of a last minute, last ditch
effort. Under the cercumstances of you needing to unify the galaxy
DURING the invasion of the reapers, yeah it's perfectly acceptable that a
conventional victory is off the table. I'm sorry, but that was the
point of the last game, it appears that you missed it.

Didn't miss it at all. I agree with you entirely in every way. I'm saying if conventional victory was always an impossibility from the start it ruins the first two games. A lot of people of people are quite passionately saying it always was no matter what and I think that tarnishes the first two installments.

I'm sorru bit that was the point of the thread, It appears that you missed it/

you're wrong, it doesnt tarnish the first 2 games.  The first game was entirely about the fact that these reapers are unstoppable and we have to prevent them from entering our galaxy.  it was a traditional "elder god" story.  ME2 had nothing to do with the main story so it isnt tarnished either.  Your point is invalid on the grounds that you dont understand what you're talking about and are wrong.  I just explained how you're wrong across multiple posts. 

(There's a specific reason why the reapers look like squid faces, also indoctrination is basically exactly what cthulhu's mere presense did to people,)

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:45 .

[NOD-INFORMER37]

I think a conventional victory should have been one of the options,(Refusal should have warranted it but it didnt even come close) and I wouldnt say that alone kills the first two games for everyone, but the lack of ANY sort of positive victory certainly did for a large number of people.

[Jamie9]

MetioricTest wrote...

Please do. I'm curious to what your case is.

Since you asked so nicely:

I will first admit that I always thought ME3 was going to take a dark turn. If every Reaper had the power of Soveriegn, we were in for a tough ride.

Throughout the first two games, you're trying to set up a defense against the Reapers. Some people think it's a suicide mission - it's impossible. But Shepard does it anyway. And people follow Shepard! Yes, Shepard saves civilization twice over, forming an amazing bond of friendship with his companions.

ME3 continues this trend, but with an undercurrent of darkness. Entire races are being decimated, and once again, it is up to Shepard to answer the call. Now, entire races are behind the Commander. The Genophage is settled, the Quarian/Geth conflict solved.

The true "Win", I feel is getting all these different people to work together. Maybe they'll all die in a day's time. But you got them to set aside their differences, and fight as one.

That's why, even if the entire Cycle dies, I still think the games are relevant, the journey still worth taking. I fight for that unity.

[GayShep]

Without Shepard doing all he/she (we) did throughout ME1-3, the Reapers would’ve won. Here’s why:

Unless Shepard had uncovered the Reaper threat in ME1 and stopped Saren, the Reapers would’ve invaded all the way back in ME1 without us having a Crucible to work its magic. We would have died.

In ME2, Liara discovers that the previous Shadow Broker was looking for something – he believed there may have been something else left by the Protheans that could help stop the Reapers (Crucible plans). So unless Shepard had recruited Liara in ME1 and helped her become the Shadow Broker in ME2, she would never have uncovered the plans for the Crucible. And even if someone else had, they wouldn’t have thought twice about it because they wouldn’t even know about the Reapers were it not for Shepard!

The Prothean VI ‘Vendetta’ clearly states that the Crucible was created several cycles ago, each cycle adding to it. The difference with our cycle? Shepard had united races from all over the galaxy – salarians, geth, krogans, hanar, drell, asari, turians, rachni, quarians, humans – that ALL added their expertise to the project. Without Shepard acting as a uniting force, the Crucible wouldn’t have worked and we would have followed previous cycles down the pooper.

Granted, not all missions throughout the trilogy were equally important, but to claim that the ending of ME3 makes the other games pointless is incorrect.

[Taco Del Marr]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

One word: No.

A question wasn't asked, so, ah, what are you answering?

The thread title. The OP is clearly wrong. 

Since it appears you have dismissed the entire thread based on it's title without even reading the post, it seems rather difficult for you to add anything valuable to the discussion, so why do you bother?

Well, when the title alone is wrong, that's a pretty bad sign. 

Get thee hence troll, crawl back to the pro-ending space magic hell from whence you came.

[The Stabilo Boss]

I was going to post a long-winded answer, but GayShep summed it up much better than I ever could.

I just want to add that the aim was always to find a way to stop the Reapers. That does not necessarily mean that the aim was to beat the Reapers conventionally. Was there a chance after the first 2 games that we wouldn't find a 'Crucible', and everyone would be horribly slaughtered? Yes. That doesn't mean that everything Shepard did was a waste of time, because we DID find a way, and we DID stop the Reapers.

It's similar logic to saying "in Lord of the Rings, it was always impossible to get into Mordor through the Black Gates. Then, out of nowhere, Smeagol reveals a previously unknown secret entrance (total DEM, am I right guys?) But if that entrance hadn't come out of nowhere, the ring couldn't be destroyed and everyone would have died. Therefore, the first two books were completely irrelevant."

[someguy1231]

Galenwolf wrote...

I love it "a conventional victory is not possible"

Really... in a fictional universe where you make the plot up as you go along?

I'm pretty sure it was impossible for Voyager to take on an entire borg fleet - until the writers who make the story up as they go along had a future Janeway upgrade Voyager with future tech that could one shot a borg cube and could withstand an entire fleet of borg shooting it.

Funny thing about Voyager is, they were in a similar quandry as the ME universe was against the Reapers - they had deal with a nigh-invincible villain. Voyager, however, took the opposite approach that ME3 did: They suddenly gave the Borg severe Villain Decay and turned them into just another Villain-of-the-Week. ME3, however, made all of our previous efforts pointless because the Reapers have always been unstoppable. This is why I hate villains who are built up to be too powerful: eventually, the writers will have to choose one of these two outcomes.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

someguy1231 wrote...

Galenwolf wrote...

I love it "a conventional victory is not possible"

Really... in a fictional universe where you make the plot up as you go along?

I'm pretty sure it was impossible for Voyager to take on an entire borg fleet - until the writers who make the story up as they go along had a future Janeway upgrade Voyager with future tech that could one shot a borg cube and could withstand an entire fleet of borg shooting it.

Funny thing about Voyager is, they were in a similar quandry as the ME universe was against the Reapers - they had deal with a nigh-invincible villain. Voyager, however, took the opposite approach that ME3 did: They suddenly gave the Borg severe Villain Decay and turned them into just another Villain-of-the-Week. ME3, however, made all of our previous efforts pointless because the Reapers have always been unstoppable. This is why I hate villains who are built up to be too powerful: eventually, the writers will have to choose one of these two outcomes.

they were impossible to beat in me1 thats why it was a prevention story.  me3 is consistent with me1.

[elitehunter34]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
What I think a very elegant and simple solution is that ties in with established narrative without changing anything important: While aboard the Collector Base Shepard uncovers Collector-Encrypted data on the location of a Prothean Weapon in the Sol System.  Unfortunately the data will take several months to decrypt (The data points to a specific location in a hidden underground bunker on Mars)  At the end of the game you can hand the data over to Cerberus for analysis, take it back to the Alliance to have them look it over, or leave it with Edi to decrypt.

What this does is important:
It makes the Collector motivations clear.  They were preparing to decimate human populations, scatter human armies across colonies, and use a human reaper to lead the assault on planet earth so they could find the crucible plans and destroy them.  The information from the data would have been in the minds of top prothean scientists that were indoctrinated and turned into collectors.  The reason for the implied attack on earth (Collector Ship mission hints at it) would be to acquire the Crucible plans and destroy them so that the device could not be used against them.

This also sets up the ME3 story better because now we know what to expect.  Reguardless of who you give the data to it would be a perfect opportunity for a trademark "meaningless choice" scenario where all 3 results point to the same conclusion.  The alliance gets ahold of the Data, Cerberus spies get involved, Edi is drydocked, Hackett assigns Liara to the dig site.  ME3 stays the same, but a subtle inclusion into the ending of ME2 (requiring two additional scenes)  would fix so many issues in what would bridge the 3 games as a dependant trilogy.  It would make ME2 mean something to the overall story.

Wow, that actually makes a lot of sense.  Maybe if Bioware was actually planning ahead they could have done something like this.

[Alamar2078]

Since the end of ME2 where we see LOTS of Reapers powering up the odds of a simple, brute force, conventional victory looked pretty low.

There are ways of making an unconventional victory more palatable than Cruicible & Catalyst but obviously that would take a total rewrite of the game so fat chance at this point.

[Taco Del Marr]

elitehunter34 wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
What I think a very elegant and simple solution is that ties in with established narrative without changing anything important: While aboard the Collector Base Shepard uncovers Collector-Encrypted data on the location of a Prothean Weapon in the Sol System.  Unfortunately the data will take several months to decrypt (The data points to a specific location in a hidden underground bunker on Mars)  At the end of the game you can hand the data over to Cerberus for analysis, take it back to the Alliance to have them look it over, or leave it with Edi to decrypt.

What this does is important:
It makes the Collector motivations clear.  They were preparing to decimate human populations, scatter human armies across colonies, and use a human reaper to lead the assault on planet earth so they could find the crucible plans and destroy them.  The information from the data would have been in the minds of top prothean scientists that were indoctrinated and turned into collectors.  The reason for the implied attack on earth (Collector Ship mission hints at it) would be to acquire the Crucible plans and destroy them so that the device could not be used against them.

This also sets up the ME3 story better because now we know what to expect.  Reguardless of who you give the data to it would be a perfect opportunity for a trademark "meaningless choice" scenario where all 3 results point to the same conclusion.  The alliance gets ahold of the Data, Cerberus spies get involved, Edi is drydocked, Hackett assigns Liara to the dig site.  ME3 stays the same, but a subtle inclusion into the ending of ME2 (requiring two additional scenes)  would fix so many issues in what would bridge the 3 games as a dependant trilogy.  It would make ME2 mean something to the overall story.

Wow, that actually makes a lot of sense.  Maybe if Bioware was actually planning ahead they could have done something like this.

This is a great idea, you could even include a token war asset strength increase on the Crucible if you save the collector base, which would show they would have found out more information about the crucible sooner.