293 réponses à ce sujet

[MandaPanda81]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

they were impossible to beat in me1 thats why it was a prevention story.  me3 is consistent with me1.

They were impossible to beat assuming that they were allowed to use their normal tactics: Take over the Citadel, shut down the relays, cut the fleets off from one another, etc.  This is specifically what Sovereign was trying to do and why it was so crucial that it be stopped.

Once that plan failed, there were plenty of ways they could have gone with the story.  What might be an impossibility for a galactic government in disarray and a bunch of worlds that are cut off from each other, could still be possible once the Reapers are forced to fight conventionally.

So no, I never got the impression from ME1 that we'd need to start looking for the win button.

[v TricKy v]

MandaPanda81 wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

they were impossible to beat in me1 thats why it was a prevention story.  me3 is consistent with me1.

They were impossible to beat assuming that they were allowed to use their normal tactics: Take over the Citadel, shut down the relays, cut the fleets off from one another, etc.  This is specifically what Sovereign was trying to do and why it was so crucial that it be stopped.

Once that plan failed, there were plenty of ways they could have gone with the story.  What might be an impossibility for a galactic government in disarray and a bunch of worlds that are cut off from each other, could still be possible once the Reapers are forced to fight conventionally.

So no, I never got the impression from ME1 that we'd need to start looking for the win button.

This
The Reapers were not impossible to beat from the beginning. ME1 shows in fact that they are relying on chaos and backstabbing. Indoctrination, the Rachni wars, the Geth armada, Saren, the Citadel trap, shutting down the Relays.
But then comes ME3 and they are suddenly an unstoppable army steamrolling everything without hassle.
Everyone who says that we never could beat them should play ME1 again. Because only ME3 made them unstoppable.

[Allaiya]

Well put OP. I agree with it all. The mere existence of ME1 & 2 should demonstrate the possibility of a conventional victory. Otherwise, what was the point of ME1 & ME2 if we could just have had one game where we find the Reaper On/Off switch at the end.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

During ME1 soverign is presented as a being that cannot be stopped. Saren fears the reapers, the citadel fleets and alliance fifth fleet have no chance against him. Its not very well conveyed but when the fleet is battling soverign after the arms have been opened up they are fighting soverign only. The entire force is shooting continuously and they cant make a dent in soverign's shields. He was unstoppable. They couldnt hurt him, his kinectic shielding was too strong and his weapons were overwhelming. it was like fighting a level 80 raid boss with level 60 gear. You cant take a hit and you cant do any damage. You're nothing compared to that. Thats what sovereign was. The only way you were able to beat him was because saren was killed during soverign's mind link, sovereign goes offline and his shields disengage. He litterally goes comatose and thats the only reason he's vulnerable. Up until that point nothing was able to hurt it. It was too powerful to fight and there were thousands more like it waiting to show up and kill us all.


They're better than us in every way, we cant defeat them, thats the entire concept of the reapers. Ancient Evil should be better than conventional weaponry. There is no reason to make the reapers weak enough and dumbed down enough so that mere organics could defeat them with meager volumes of warships. You're overestimating the total value of the surprise attack and underselling the power of the reapers. Being able to sever galactic government is one thing, but they need power and unrelenting force to take down each military. The protheans still fought the reapers for hundreds of years before losing, the shutdown of thier galactic government didnt mean they got beaten all at once. The reapers were unbeatable in that cycle and every cycle before it and not JUST because of the Citadel trap. That was just the opening gambit.

[RethenX]

I don't have fleet or ground forces numbers, nor do I know how effective regular forces are against Reapers. Besides that, through out the game our supply lines were effectively cut off, or under constant strain that it would be difficult to pursue a long going campaign against the Reapers. Add in that they have virtually infinite manpower due to indoctrination, conventionally winning the war looks a little bleak. Unless, Allied command has a strategy that exploits Reaper weakness', then it's up in the air.

[robertthebard]

v TricKy v wrote...

MandaPanda81 wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

they were impossible to beat in me1 thats why it was a prevention story.  me3 is consistent with me1.

They were impossible to beat assuming that they were allowed to use their normal tactics: Take over the Citadel, shut down the relays, cut the fleets off from one another, etc.  This is specifically what Sovereign was trying to do and why it was so crucial that it be stopped.

Once that plan failed, there were plenty of ways they could have gone with the story.  What might be an impossibility for a galactic government in disarray and a bunch of worlds that are cut off from each other, could still be possible once the Reapers are forced to fight conventionally.

So no, I never got the impression from ME1 that we'd need to start looking for the win button.

This
The Reapers were not impossible to beat from the beginning. ME1 shows in fact that they are relying on chaos and backstabbing. Indoctrination, the Rachni wars, the Geth armada, Saren, the Citadel trap, shutting down the Relays.
But then comes ME3 and they are suddenly an unstoppable army steamrolling everything without hassle.
Everyone who says that we never could beat them should play ME1 again. Because only ME3 made them unstoppable.

Isn't a good thing that Sovereign decided it was a good time to possess Saren's Husk and try to kill you instead of focusing on the task at hand?  He really picked a bad time to "Assume Control", and paid for it.  You'll notice that Harbinger didn't make the same mistake in 2, he bailed just before the Collector base blew up, which ever way it blew up.  I watched the cutscene of Sovereign getting into the Citadel, nothing was doing anything to him, he even ran over what looked like a dreadnaught on his way in.  Just straight out ran right through it.  Yeah, I came away with the impression that we could beat him easily after that.

[lillitheris]

MetioricTest wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

There’s some narrative truth to this. However, part of me has always liked inevitabilities.

So, rather than “if the Council had acted 2 years ago, we could have won”, you have “if the Council had acted 2 years ago, we might have saved billions of lives by preparing better”.

If the Reapers will kill them anyway they didn't save billions of lives. They prolonged the agonzing death of billions of lives.

You’re not making any sense.

People on Earth, Palaven, Thessia, everywhere died in the billions because they were not prepared at all.

Had everyone been preparing defenses and so on for a year or two, dispersing people far and wide, a significant number of them would not be dead at the end of ‘ME3’ if we assume largely similar plot development with the Crucible and so on.

And that’s the price that was paid.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

robertthebard wrote...
Isn't a good thing that Sovereign decided it was a good time to possess Saren's Husk and try to kill you instead of focusing on the task at hand?  He really picked a bad time to "Assume Control", and paid for it.  You'll notice that Harbinger didn't make the same mistake in 2, he bailed just before the Collector base blew up, which ever way it blew up.  I watched the cutscene of Sovereign getting into the Citadel, nothing was doing anything to him, he even ran over what looked like a dreadnaught on his way in.  Just straight out ran right through it.  Yeah, I came away with the impression that we could beat him easily after that.

This.  This right here.  The reapers are unbeatable.  it was a flaw in his character that allowed us to beat soverign, though mighty he was.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 18 juillet 2012 - 11:37 .

[v TricKy v]

robertthebard wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

MandaPanda81 wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

they were impossible to beat in me1 thats why it was a prevention story.  me3 is consistent with me1.

They were impossible to beat assuming that they were allowed to use their normal tactics: Take over the Citadel, shut down the relays, cut the fleets off from one another, etc.  This is specifically what Sovereign was trying to do and why it was so crucial that it be stopped.

Once that plan failed, there were plenty of ways they could have gone with the story.  What might be an impossibility for a galactic government in disarray and a bunch of worlds that are cut off from each other, could still be possible once the Reapers are forced to fight conventionally.

So no, I never got the impression from ME1 that we'd need to start looking for the win button.

This
The Reapers were not impossible to beat from the beginning. ME1 shows in fact that they are relying on chaos and backstabbing. Indoctrination, the Rachni wars, the Geth armada, Saren, the Citadel trap, shutting down the Relays.
But then comes ME3 and they are suddenly an unstoppable army steamrolling everything without hassle.
Everyone who says that we never could beat them should play ME1 again. Because only ME3 made them unstoppable.

Isn't a good thing that Sovereign decided it was a good time to possess Saren's Husk and try to kill you instead of focusing on the task at hand?  He really picked a bad time to "Assume Control", and paid for it.  You'll notice that Harbinger didn't make the same mistake in 2, he bailed just before the Collector base blew up, which ever way it blew up.  I watched the cutscene of Sovereign getting into the Citadel, nothing was doing anything to him, he even ran over what looked like a dreadnaught on his way in.  Just straight out ran right through it.  Yeah, I came away with the impression that we could beat him easily after that.

There are no Dreadnoughts in the Sovereign end fight besides the Destiny Ascension. There are only Cruisers in these cutscenes. Sovereign is 2 kilometers long and our Dreadnoughts are 1 kilometers long. I didnt see a ship in there that was half as big as Sovereign. The Destiny Ascension could take a lot of fire too from the fleet of geth ships. So I dont see your point.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

What do geth have to do with soverign? Why would you even bring them up? They're just geth they're not as strong as a reaper.

[robertthebard]

v TricKy v wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

MandaPanda81 wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

they were impossible to beat in me1 thats why it was a prevention story.  me3 is consistent with me1.

They were impossible to beat assuming that they were allowed to use their normal tactics: Take over the Citadel, shut down the relays, cut the fleets off from one another, etc.  This is specifically what Sovereign was trying to do and why it was so crucial that it be stopped.

Once that plan failed, there were plenty of ways they could have gone with the story.  What might be an impossibility for a galactic government in disarray and a bunch of worlds that are cut off from each other, could still be possible once the Reapers are forced to fight conventionally.

So no, I never got the impression from ME1 that we'd need to start looking for the win button.

This
The Reapers were not impossible to beat from the beginning. ME1 shows in fact that they are relying on chaos and backstabbing. Indoctrination, the Rachni wars, the Geth armada, Saren, the Citadel trap, shutting down the Relays.
But then comes ME3 and they are suddenly an unstoppable army steamrolling everything without hassle.
Everyone who says that we never could beat them should play ME1 again. Because only ME3 made them unstoppable.

Isn't a good thing that Sovereign decided it was a good time to possess Saren's Husk and try to kill you instead of focusing on the task at hand?  He really picked a bad time to "Assume Control", and paid for it.  You'll notice that Harbinger didn't make the same mistake in 2, he bailed just before the Collector base blew up, which ever way it blew up.  I watched the cutscene of Sovereign getting into the Citadel, nothing was doing anything to him, he even ran over what looked like a dreadnaught on his way in.  Just straight out ran right through it.  Yeah, I came away with the impression that we could beat him easily after that.

There are no Dreadnoughts in the Sovereign end fight besides the Destiny Ascension. There are only Cruisers in these cutscenes. Sovereign is 2 kilometers long and our Dreadnoughts are 1 kilometers long. I didnt see a ship in there that was half as big as Sovereign. The Destiny Ascension could take a lot of fire too from the fleet of geth ships. So I dont see your point.

The point was, he flew through it like it wasn't there.  All the while taking fire, and just shrugging it off.  If he hadn't stopped what he was doing to fight Shepard on the ground, he could have opened the relay.  Instead, he decided to possess Saren's Husk, and fight you on the ground.  Losing that fight disables Sovereign's shields, and then the fleet hurt him.  Otherwise, we would have come into ME 2 in the middle of the war, instead of goofing off with Cerberus and the Collectors.

[NM_Che56]

1 reaper versus an untold number...kind of a big difference...

[shurikenmanta]

I don't think it was ever stated as outright *impossible*, just insanely, insanely, insanely difficult to the point where it would be considered *virtually* impossible.

I wouldn't oppose a conventional ending option, but only if it required a realistic EMS (250000 or more), not just an 'I win everything' button.

[v TricKy v]

robertthebard wrote...

The point was, he flew through it like it wasn't there.  All the while taking fire, and just shrugging it off.  If he hadn't stopped what he was doing to fight Shepard on the ground, he could have opened the relay.  Instead, he decided to possess Saren's Husk, and fight you on the ground.  Losing that fight disables Sovereign's shields, and then the fleet hurt him.  Otherwise, we would have come into ME 2 in the middle of the war, instead of goofing off with Cerberus and the Collectors.

OK you know what? I agree with you that they are hard to kill.
But it doesnt change the fact that it was never stated in ME1 that we could not defeat them the hard way. Every other cylce got cut of from another and got killed system by system. Vigil even says that Sovereign had to rely on the Geth because he would have been killed quickly if he attacked the Citadel alone and that a united galaxy would be the key.
We dont know how many reapers there are and they used backstabbing the whole time. Their methods actually suggested that there cant be that many and they have to rely on cunning tactics and not on overwhelming power.
ME3 made them unstoppable but they were not like that in ME1

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

v TricKy v wrote...

OK you know what? I agree with you that they are hard to kill.
But it doesnt change the fact that it was never stated in ME1 that we could not defeat them the hard way. Every other cylce got cut of from another and got killed system by system. Vigil even says that Sovereign had to rely on the Geth because he would have been killed quickly if he attacked the Citadel alone and that a united galaxy would be the key.
We dont know how many reapers there are and they used backstabbing the whole time. Their methods actually suggested that there cant be that many and they have to rely on cunning tactics and not on overwhelming power.
ME3 made them unstoppable but they were not like that in ME1

Its important to remember that the protheans lasted 500 years against the reapers which means that cutting off the citadel only did so much.  Its a crushing blow but they still had a long battle.  Thier greatest ships obviously didnt win that battle.

Also please dont bring up EMS, that system is kind of effed.  You get 40 points for finding a flag but also you get 90 points for a turian fleet?  Normandy is worth 75 but the destiny ascension is worth 75?  Also normandy can be worth like 140.  those numbers are meaningless and I actually went through and altered every value in my ini file to more accurately represent a scale (I ended up cutting my maximum potential EMS in half by doing it.)  You really only get a few things that MATTER in that game, almost everything you get from galaxy scanning, narratively, wouldnt be worth much if they actually thought about the EMS system instead of just giving everything a random value.

[robertthebard]

v TricKy v wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

The point was, he flew through it like it wasn't there.  All the while taking fire, and just shrugging it off.  If he hadn't stopped what he was doing to fight Shepard on the ground, he could have opened the relay.  Instead, he decided to possess Saren's Husk, and fight you on the ground.  Losing that fight disables Sovereign's shields, and then the fleet hurt him.  Otherwise, we would have come into ME 2 in the middle of the war, instead of goofing off with Cerberus and the Collectors.

OK you know what? I agree with you that they are hard to kill.
But it doesnt change the fact that it was never stated in ME1 that we could not defeat them the hard way. Every other cylce got cut of from another and got killed system by system. Vigil even says that Sovereign had to rely on the Geth because he would have been killed quickly if he attacked the Citadel alone and that a united galaxy would be the key.
We dont know how many reapers there are and they used backstabbing the whole time. Their methods actually suggested that there cant be that many and they have to rely on cunning tactics and not on overwhelming power.
ME3 made them unstoppable but they were not like that in ME1

I'd love to see a Conventional Victory ending that is realistic to the setting.  I just see lots of problems with it as I keep seeing it presented here, so far anyway.  Maybe somebody will come up with a system that might work as I see it, but until then, if killing one is damned hard, which it is, killing one with their little fighter drones and other reapers fighting at the same time is going to be really hard, especially since everybody and their uncle spent all of ME 2 laughing at Shepard for working with Cerberus.

[nrcrane]

Don't really understand why people are so against a conventional means being possible. It's a fictional story so the writers could have done anything they wanted to. Just takes a bit of imagination.

Secondly, why argue against it when the alternative is finding a convenient off switch? Wouldn't a battle with varying outcomes and different degrees of success been much more satisfying then shooting a red tube? For me the completely anit-climatic current ending of pushing an off switch is about as disappointing as any ending could be.

[robertthebard]

nrcrane wrote...

Don't really understand why people are so against a conventional means being possible. It's a fictional story so the writers could have done anything they wanted to. Just takes a bit of imagination.

Secondly, why argue against it when the alternative is finding a convenient off switch? Wouldn't a battle with varying outcomes and different degrees of success been much more satisfying then shooting a red tube? For me the completely anit-climatic current ending of pushing an off switch is about as disappointing as any ending could be.

Currently, I quit after everybody gets nuked at the beam.  It fits with "Stop 'em, or die trying" to me.

The problem I have with CV is that there is no way to implement it where it doesn't take at least 100 years to finish, unless we create yet another Crucible type situation.  We take heavy losses against a single Reaper in 1.  Fighting multiple Reapers at the same time means we're going to take even heavier losses.   Then there's all the time that everybody should have spent preparing for the inevitable, but instead spent their time denying the Reaper threat.  I don't know how much could have been accomplished in that 2 - 3 year period between 1 and 3, but something would have been better than nothing.

[v TricKy v]

robertthebard wrote...

v TricKy v wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

The point was, he flew through it like it wasn't there.  All the while taking fire, and just shrugging it off.  If he hadn't stopped what he was doing to fight Shepard on the ground, he could have opened the relay.  Instead, he decided to possess Saren's Husk, and fight you on the ground.  Losing that fight disables Sovereign's shields, and then the fleet hurt him.  Otherwise, we would have come into ME 2 in the middle of the war, instead of goofing off with Cerberus and the Collectors.

OK you know what? I agree with you that they are hard to kill.
But it doesnt change the fact that it was never stated in ME1 that we could not defeat them the hard way. Every other cylce got cut of from another and got killed system by system. Vigil even says that Sovereign had to rely on the Geth because he would have been killed quickly if he attacked the Citadel alone and that a united galaxy would be the key.
We dont know how many reapers there are and they used backstabbing the whole time. Their methods actually suggested that there cant be that many and they have to rely on cunning tactics and not on overwhelming power.
ME3 made them unstoppable but they were not like that in ME1

I'd love to see a Conventional Victory ending that is realistic to the setting.  I just see lots of problems with it as I keep seeing it presented here, so far anyway.  Maybe somebody will come up with a system that might work as I see it, but until then, if killing one is damned hard, which it is, killing one with their little fighter drones and other reapers fighting at the same time is going to be really hard, especially since everybody and their uncle spent all of ME 2 laughing at Shepard for working with Cerberus.

That´s the problem with the writing of ME2/3 to be honest. They introduced a lot of new things and buffed the reapers more and more instead of sticking with the already established things about them and made the galaxy stupid intentionally. "Ah yes, Reapers. We have dismissed that claim" comes to mind. ME3 is the high point of it because
1) We have working Relays and communication
2) They didnt killed our leaders
3) People know about the Reapers
But they still can still bring the whole galaxy to its knees in a matter of months

[NoirCZ]

Sovergin unbeatable? No. - He attacked in surprise with Geth. Eveeyone crapped their pants when they even heard a word Geth. If he did not attacked with surprise on his side and in nebulae, where detection is obstructed I guess... Don't you people think that Destiny and all the Turians would "Aim for that big ship first"? .... Why the Alliance fleet fired onto Sovergin and did nothing to it? Because he was in middle of Citadel and they probably did not want to use main guns? Because as codex says... 3 - 4 dreagnaught main guns = dead capital reaper ship. If Sovergin was unbeatable in the first place, why the hell boher with Geth armada when attacking Citadel? Because he was NOT unbeatable.

Protheans lasting 500 years - don't recall it said something about really organized resistance against reapers, with their leadership dead. I'd assume that with their empire fractured, they also tried hiding and splintered into cells through the universe... so the lenght of the war was mainly because the Reapers had to find every hole the Protheans dug their scally asses in.

[alienatedflea]

MetioricTest wrote...

Now first off this isn't an ending topic. I'm not saying I want a convential victory or it should be included in DLC or anything like that. I frankly didn't and don't care how the end of the war went down so long as it was told well.

But since this whole "conventional victory" stuff popping up recently (I think some people are calling it the new IT) I've seen literally hundreds of people declare that it is and always was impossible, presented as such since the first game.

And to that I say bull****.

If victory was an impossibility and pointless to attempt until Liara found the crucible plans on the floor at the start of the game. Why did it matter that the council refused to believe the Reaper threat? Why was that dramatic? **** it, if defeat at the hands of Reapers was assured unless someone stumbles over an "I win" button, we may as well deny Reaper existance and die in happiness instead of long drawn out agonizing death. Hell the stumbling part can happen either way (as indeed it did)

What's the relevance of bringing Shepard back to life and stopping the Collectors from abducting human colonies? Saving a few lives? We'd save even more if we took all the resources/time/effort we spent into doing that and instead put it into curing dieases and giving it to hospitals.

Why does it matter whether or not we save Toombs? Take down the Shadow Broker? 

What's the dramatic value in anything, anything at all if at absolute best all it means is "Well, at least we'll go down swinging a little bit more when we all die." That's terrible... The point always was working towards the ultimate goal of defeating the Reapers.

Now don't misunderstand my point here. I'll repeat I'm not saying this as a "And so they should have made it an option!" I'm saying "Within the context of the story it should have been possible or else the story loses a lot of meaning and drama."

The entire trilogy and ME3 especially is so much stronger if:
"We could have beaten the Reapers If only.... The council listened two years ago."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... We would unify our fleets, even at the cost of our homeworld's security."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... The Asari had shared knowledge of the prothean beacon."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... The Batarians had been more cooperative."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... Miranda's butt wasn't distracting the admirals."
"We could have beaten the Reapers if only.... TIM's obsession didn't lead him to indoctrination and he had worked with us."
Etc.
And now we have to fall back on this desperate crucible plan because of the folly of man.

As opposed to:
"Never had a chance. Good thing Liara found those plans 5 minutes ago."

Just my thoughts. In my "headcannon" or whatever (I don't like that term for some reason) defeating the Reapers was always possible. It just was never realized due to arrogance and denial.  I find that to be a much more powerful and moral story than "We were always ****ed but then we discovered the Death Star."

I believe because conventional warfare is an impossibility in me3..me3 strenthens the other two games...all your reasons for "we could have beaten the reapers" is what shep has been tryin to fight and tell people about for years and when the reapers finally come...we are still unprepared and on the 11th hour, liara comes up with a possible save with no real idea if it will work or what it does...

[Ieldra]

OP, I do not agree with you.

As I see it, a conventional win means "without any additional knowledge or technological breakthrough", and that *was* always implied to be impossible, and that's how things should be against a force like the Reapers.

It was always clear Shepard had to find "something new" in order to make victory possible. Some knowledge about the Reapers' weaknesses, some weapon, big or small, some critical information about...well...anything, really. The Crucible is a blunt instrument, and I can imagine something more subtle, but whatever shape that "something new" would've taken, it had to come out of nowhere, or the question "why didn't the previous cycles have the same idea" would have broken the plot.

As a comparison, see this scenario Elyvern and I cooked up a year ago. The fleets do the hard work of killing the Reapers there, but the Reapers still had to be weakened by that "something new that came out of nowhere", even if it wasn't a superweapon but a high-energy pulse relayed through a hitherto unknown central location.

[T-0pel]

well said

[The Angry One]

They should release Mass Effect 1: Mac Walters Edition.
Your only option at the end will be to surrender to Saren.

You know, to maintain the artistic vision.

Modifié par The Angry One, 19 juillet 2012 - 11:21 .

[Kamfrenchie]

Doctor jackstraw, I don't see how you can possibly compare the atomic bomb and the crucible. They're vastly different. The fct tha the game even brong outthe comparison is horribl writing and lack of understanding of history.

The USA knew how the bomb worked, and they had pretty much already won the war by the time they used it.

I'm sorry but such horrible comparisons, ell, horrify me.

The reapers advantage is their barriers mostly, as Sovereign hul was quickly pwned whe the barriers went down.
And we have severl weapons that penetrate shield (thanix, javelin, lasers )

USA would have won without the bomb. the crucible is a terrible contrived dvice that saves everyone