712 réponses à ce sujet

[Skirata129]

so say a company... Microsoft for example, created a new gaming platform. it has a problem where most of them run at half the speed they were reputed to. Microsoft issues a recall and says they fixed the problem. However, the problem is still there, but slightly fewer of them run slowly than did before. They already addressed the problem once right? No further obligations to their customer base whatsoever. just don't buy their products from now on.

[3DandBeyond]

LinksOcarina wrote...


Snipped ----

I only attack people because of their stupidity and because those people need to learn something.

This is just special.  Please heed your own "advice".  I have used reasoned and rational explanation for things. You repeatedly resort to this kind of non-debate tactic.  Feel superior?  Pitiful.

ME had lore that Bioware created.  The endings break with that lore, retcon much that came before, require a total suspension of disbelief and introduce an unknown character at the last moment.  That's not good story telling.  If you think it is that's your right and you should be happy, but you are distinctly unhappy.

I post because Bioware does intend to release ME3 related DLC.  This may or may not yet impact things we see in the games.  Even people who believe in IT might find something there-no one knows.

I don't hate at all.  I've loved these games.  I do dislike what was done to them, but I totally dislike any attempt to try to assert attempts by some to intimidate others.  Who died and made you the ME discussion god?  If mods feel we are out of line, they tell us and to their credit they allow debate.  Personal attacks are another thing.  Be happy-play the ME3 ending over and over again and see what new thing happens in the huge variety of endings you have-you know the ones that came out of choices you made in the games.

[robertthebard]

AresKeith wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Just think about it this way, if you use your powers to alter the game without it being on biowares terms or will, you open the possibility for this to be abused by people who do not care about the game but merely care about an agenda, be it political, religious, or simply to gain media notoriety and a misguided attempt to protect children.

The difference being that were the one's who bought the game. If the church of scientology happened to constitute 90 something% of a future gaming company's customer base, it would also be in their interest to listen to them. Money talks.

Actually, no difference still. You bought the product, they listened and changed it once. If you are still not satisfied don't buy more products. 

Simple as that. This is how capitalism works. 

they didn't change sh** all they did was add cutscenes that should have been in the game in the first place, EA/Bioware ignored their original fans just to gain new CoD fans

Were you one of those?  Just sayin' looking at your join date.

[LinksOcarina]

3DandBeyond wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...


Snipped ----

I only attack people because of their stupidity and because those people need to learn something.

This is just special.  Please heed your own "advice".  I have used reasoned and rational explanation for things. You repeatedly resort to this kind of non-debate tactic.  Feel superior?  Pitiful.

ME had lore that Bioware created.  The endings break with that lore, retcon much that came before, require a total suspension of disbelief and introduce an unknown character at the last moment.  That's not good story telling.  If you think it is that's your right and you should be happy, but you are distinctly unhappy.

I post because Bioware does intend to release ME3 related DLC.  This may or may not yet impact things we see in the games.  Even people who believe in IT might find something there-no one knows.

I don't hate at all.  I've loved these games.  I do dislike what was done to them, but I totally dislike any attempt to try to assert attempts by some to intimidate others.  Who died and made you the ME discussion god?  If mods feel we are out of line, they tell us and to their credit they allow debate.  Personal attacks are another thing.  Be happy-play the ME3 ending over and over again and see what new thing happens in the huge variety of endings you have-you know the ones that came out of choices you made in the games.

I know, thats why I liked the original endings anyway, because the choices did matter leading up to it, just like in the other games where the choices had little, if any, impact on the endings. Well, at least Mass Effect 1, 2 they got it right and that is probably why I like it best compared to the other two games in the series.

Wait, I said I would stop talking to you...ugh I guess I am just a glutton for self-hatred then...ah well. At least I accept it.  Hey you know what, you got me. I hate myself so much because of how the endings are. I have to project my hate onto everyone else. That is how I thrive.That, and my ability to feel supierior to your "reaosnable" logic, which is a lie to begin with.  But what do I know, it's obvious you know how to tell a good story. What would you recommend as a story then, i'm curious, what is truely a revelation that we should all follow in the footsteps of storytelling? 

Ahh, whats the point. I guess I should just stop before I make myself look more foolish, and you too for wasting time, energy, and effort on something insignificant. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:03 .

[AresKeith]

robertthebard wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Just think about it this way, if you use your powers to alter the game without it being on biowares terms or will, you open the possibility for this to be abused by people who do not care about the game but merely care about an agenda, be it political, religious, or simply to gain media notoriety and a misguided attempt to protect children.

The difference being that were the one's who bought the game. If the church of scientology happened to constitute 90 something% of a future gaming company's customer base, it would also be in their interest to listen to them. Money talks.

Actually, no difference still. You bought the product, they listened and changed it once. If you are still not satisfied don't buy more products. 

Simple as that. This is how capitalism works. 

they didn't change sh** all they did was add cutscenes that should have been in the game in the first place, EA/Bioware ignored their original fans just to gain new CoD fans

Were you one of those?  Just sayin' looking at your join date.

no I played ME1 on my cousins Xbox and have ME2 and 3 on PS3, I just joined the forum late

I hate COD

Modifié par AresKeith, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:00 .

[robertthebard]

AresKeith wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Just think about it this way, if you use your powers to alter the game without it being on biowares terms or will, you open the possibility for this to be abused by people who do not care about the game but merely care about an agenda, be it political, religious, or simply to gain media notoriety and a misguided attempt to protect children.

The difference being that were the one's who bought the game. If the church of scientology happened to constitute 90 something% of a future gaming company's customer base, it would also be in their interest to listen to them. Money talks.

Actually, no difference still. You bought the product, they listened and changed it once. If you are still not satisfied don't buy more products. 

Simple as that. This is how capitalism works. 

they didn't change sh** all they did was add cutscenes that should have been in the game in the first place, EA/Bioware ignored their original fans just to gain new CoD fans

Were you one of those?  Just sayin' looking at your join date.

no I played ME1 on my cousins Xbox and have ME2 and 3 on PS3, I just joined the forum late

I hate COD

I've never played it.  This is the first shooter type game I've looked at twice, let alone played, since the original Doom and Quake sharewares.

[Skirata129]

and oddly enough, I like COD, but was with Mass Effect from ME1 and hate the endings. guess their focus testing was a bit off.

[LinksOcarina]

robertthebard wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Just think about it this way, if you use your powers to alter the game without it being on biowares terms or will, you open the possibility for this to be abused by people who do not care about the game but merely care about an agenda, be it political, religious, or simply to gain media notoriety and a misguided attempt to protect children.

The difference being that were the one's who bought the game. If the church of scientology happened to constitute 90 something% of a future gaming company's customer base, it would also be in their interest to listen to them. Money talks.

Actually, no difference still. You bought the product, they listened and changed it once. If you are still not satisfied don't buy more products. 

Simple as that. This is how capitalism works. 

they didn't change sh** all they did was add cutscenes that should have been in the game in the first place, EA/Bioware ignored their original fans just to gain new CoD fans

Were you one of those?  Just sayin' looking at your join date.

no I played ME1 on my cousins Xbox and have ME2 and 3 on PS3, I just joined the forum late

I hate COD

I've never played it.  This is the first shooter type game I've looked at twice, let alone played, since the original Doom and Quake sharewares.

Call of Duty is actually a well made game. It's also a game that is released every year and is popular, so people hate it for percieved "stagnation", along with the multiplayer community. Some of that is true, but if the gaming community hated the game so much, why do they keep breaking sales records and making sequels? That same community keeps buying it, is why.

Kind of hypocritical, no?  Of course, not everyone buys it. Hell I havent bought one since modern Warfare 2 because I grew tired of it and had free time to focus more on RPGs for the first time in a while. But hey, some things are just damn good at what they do, and even if I hate CoD, it is damn good as a FPS. 

[3DandBeyond]

Skirata129 wrote...

so say a company... Microsoft for example, created a new gaming platform. it has a problem where most of them run at half the speed they were reputed to. Microsoft issues a recall and says they fixed the problem. However, the problem is still there, but slightly fewer of them run slowly than did before. They already addressed the problem once right? No further obligations to their customer base whatsoever. just don't buy their products from now on.

Well it's worse if you already bought a bunch of games that only work with that platform and can't return them and now they (in your opinion) are ruined and unplayable too.

The big problem in gaming is that for too many years fans have been disregarded and fans never really asserted themselves into any coherent debate over the content in games.  Mostly disgust has been limited to game mechanics and bugs and the like.  No other game before has had this level of complaint over the story.  But I think given that buggy games get released, hype is used but denied as any kind of promise, trailers don't show actual game content and glorify the game, and game reviewers are predisposed to like big name franchise games, fans are being forced to become consumers. 

In the past most fans would just give up on a game they don't like-and maybe sell it used-and might not be able to return it.  Now, with MP play codes being needed on consoles, the value of a used game has really dropped.  Games are released in Beta testing state and finally people are paying attention to content.  ME featured a mostly older audience than traditional games.  Not that younger people didn't like it too, but the demographics of people that like ME is all over the place.  Some people even grew up with the games. 

I've done private beta testing on some games (not any ME) and I can say that bugs are often left in the released product.  This stuff happens and some of it never gets fixed.

There are also games that look good in trailers or that are in a series that you like and that are really bad-nothing like the previous games.  If fans start paying attention, less of this is likely to happen.  Fans of ME are now less likely to pre-order, and that may actually put the focus back where it belongs.  With a lot of pre-orders expected, companies hype the game pre-release a lot more.  If the bulk of sales come from after release day sales, games have to be better.  Youtube exists for a reason and the judgement of fans is far better than that of paid reviewers.

With a console-say a broken MS or Sony one, there are consumer laws in some places that can apply and you can even get extended warranties from 3rd parties (squaretrade) in some places.  But where does a video game fan go when a game that they finish 3 weeks after buying it ends up sucking?

[Skirata129]

Yeah, the mistake Bioware made was by trying to immediately make the leap to multiplayer fame and cash in on Call of Duty's fan base at the cost of the single player game and their original supporters.

[SteelerWayne]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

We're not getting any more endings. I can sympathize with wanting this but I think its time to let it go. If they were going to give us one it would have been in the EC. All the ending stuff is done and over, I think its time for us to move on.

Agreed wholeheartedly!!!!!!

[AresKeith]

Skirata129 wrote...

and oddly enough, I like COD, but was with Mass Effect from ME1 and hate the endings. guess their focus testing was a bit off.

I liked Mass Effect because it was a Sci-fi RPG action, I do like that they improved the action in the ME2 and ME3, but they took their focus off of one the biggest part of the game series, the RPG element. Thats why ME3 turned into a generic shooter and "A best start for new players", said by EA/Bioware, that was another problem I had with the game

[KotorEffect3]

A conventional victory would be stupid. This is getting rediculous with fans demanding bioware rewrite the entire game.

[3DandBeyond]

Skirata129 wrote...

and oddly enough, I like COD, but was with Mass Effect from ME1 and hate the endings. guess their focus testing was a bit off.

I like a lot of different games and have every COD game from 4 on.  They are mindless fun.  If I wanted just some mindless shooting action, I'd choose them every time.  I like the ranking up and don't like the credit system (won't buy) for packs in ME3's MP.  In COD you can earn every weapon and while they don't have the different character types and all and it is very predictable, well it's more than horde mode.  I have other FPS games that have all different modes including horde mode and like those too.

ME was more about the story with action and combat thrown in.  It's great to have better combat and MP is great for those who like it.  But not at the expense of the story.  ME3 is a short game with lots of timewasting fetch quests for things that should really matter.  Wow, I found a whole fleet.  So what.

The endings even though they are supposedly intellectual and artistic actually seem to appeal more to people that are more inclined to like action RPGs.  Superficially they are sooooo coooool.  You get to be god Shepard or you get to create a whole new immortal cyborg race (overpopulation anyone?) and that looks soooo cooool.  They are like non-action endings that appeal to people that wanted lots of explosions and blood.  I know other people like them and I mean no insult but if you really stop to think about them they don't make sense with the rest of the story.

[AresKeith]

Skirata129 wrote...

Yeah, the mistake Bioware made was by trying to immediately make the leap to multiplayer fame and cash in on Call of Duty's fan base at the cost of the single player game and their original supporters.

thats true, even though most of us did want a MP for Mass Effect, we literally told Bioware for a Co-op story campaign mode, but instead they did a Gears of War Horde mode

[KotorEffect3]

AresKeith wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

and oddly enough, I like COD, but was with Mass Effect from ME1 and hate the endings. guess their focus testing was a bit off.

I liked Mass Effect because it was a Sci-fi RPG action, I do like that they improved the action in the ME2 and ME3, but they took their focus off of one the biggest part of the game series, the RPG element. Thats why ME3 turned into a generic shooter and "A best start for new players", said by EA/Bioware, that was another problem I had with the game

ME 3 had some of the best rpg elements of the series.  ME 1's RPG elements consisted of a cluttered inventory and reskinned armor and weapons that only changed color from time to time.

[Ozida]

Ahem, I would really suggest most of pros- and cons- of conventional victory option to read this: social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/13174689/1. In my opinion, it is a nice balance that can satisfy both sides with no "space magic", plotholes or complicated calculations on "how many ships will it take to take down one Reaper". At least it is worth a try!

Modifié par Ozida, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:33 .

[AresKeith]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

and oddly enough, I like COD, but was with Mass Effect from ME1 and hate the endings. guess their focus testing was a bit off.

I liked Mass Effect because it was a Sci-fi RPG action, I do like that they improved the action in the ME2 and ME3, but they took their focus off of one the biggest part of the game series, the RPG element. Thats why ME3 turned into a generic shooter and "A best start for new players", said by EA/Bioware, that was another problem I had with the game

ME 3 had some of the best rpg elements of the series.  ME 1's RPG elements consisted of a cluttered inventory and reskinned armor and weapons that only changed color from time to time.

RPG elements consist of more than just inventory and armor customization, I happened to like the inventory system and armor is basic RPG, you have to be stupid to not really have that in and Weapon customization was disappointing

[LinksOcarina]

[quote]AresKeith wrote...

[quote]KotorEffect3 wrote...

[quote]AresKeith wrote...

[quote]Skirata129 wrote...

and oddly enough, I like COD, but was with Mass Effect from ME1 and hate the endings. guess their focus testing was a bit off.[/quote]

I liked Mass Effect because it was a Sci-fi RPG action, I do like that they improved the action in the ME2 and ME3, but they took their focus off of one the biggest part of the game series, the RPG element. Thats why ME3 turned into a generic shooter and "A best start for new players", said by EA/Bioware, that was another problem I had with the game[/quote]


ME 3 had some of the best rpg elements of the series.  ME 1's RPG elements consisted of a cluttered inventory and reskinned armor and weapons that only changed color from time to time.[/quote]

RPG elements consist of more than just inventory and armor customization, I happened to like the inventory system and armor is basic RPG, you have to be stupid to not really have that in and Weapon customization was disappointing[/quote

Basic RPG is not inventory management, at least in the Western tradtion. That is a trope of Light RPGs, or as some people like calling them, JRPGs.

[Skirata129]

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed would be a good example of that. fun game in it's own right, but hardly an RPG and exactly what we didn't want Mass Effect to be.

[AresKeith]

Assassins Creed had good focus on both Story and MP

[3DandBeyond]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

A conventional victory would be stupid. This is getting rediculous with fans demanding bioware rewrite the entire game.

Who is demanding anything.  Asking and even strongly urging is not demanding.  People really need to stop fighting amongst themselves.  Healthy debate can make games better.  It's when you stop talking about stuff that people create things based solely on what they want to see and not at all on what you might like.  The only ones in a position to demand anything are the bosses at EA.

Unfortunately we live in a text messaging era where people say things, ask for things and the nuance is lost.

Consider the star kid.  What's the first thing he says to Shepard?  Wake up.  Shepard is clearly not sleeping.  Why doesn't the kid say, "get up".  That's more correct.  But he doesn't say it because it sounds harsh.  You can't say it and make it sound nice.  Same thing happens when people state they don't like something a company has done.

I know from firsthand experience.  I created one thread here where I said how much I loved the ME series and Bioware for creating it.  And where I said with respect what I didn't like about the endings.  I asked them to open up a real discussion with fans here not on twitter or at some convention but where owners of the games are.  That was for the original endings.  I wasn't demanding anything, I was asking and said so.  I still got nastiness from some saying it was too soft on them, but I got a lot that said I needed to quit whining, quit demanding, quit complaining, quit hating.  This was before the EC was announced.  Some people only ever see what they want to see.  And why?  I don't know.  How can it hurt to express wishes that may or may not be possible in future content?  It's asking even if done by "petition" or poll.  And since they do have DLC planned (most likely pre-ending DLC) what good is that DLC if you still get the same 3 (4) choices and endings?  They still want to make money and some still are asking for different or additional content.  Bioware can say no and people can buy other games.  That's how it works.

[3DandBeyond]

LinksOcarina wrote...


Basic RPG is not inventory management, at least in the Western tradtion. That is a trope of Light RPGs, or as some people like calling them, JRPGs.

Hmmm.  Fallout 3, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout New Vegas.  Every RPG out there basically that is less an action RPG features inventory management of some type.

And ME1 is 5 years old and in development terms is older than that.  By contrast, action oriented games tend to dispense with inventory and go with finding weapons as you go, on the ground, and so on which is what ME3 started to do.  I truly missed heavy weapons as part of my inventory, but then again they were never needed and pretty useless, other than for burning up Rachni webbing and "eggs".

Yeah, the amount of stuff you had in ME1 got to be a bit much but I like continually upgrading what people were carrying.

And in contrast again, I've played a couple JRPGs where weapon and armor customization is an artform and the setting and all make them seem more like western RPGs but the action is better than any of the genre.  But I wouldn't want ME3 or any ME game to be like them either.

[LinksOcarina]

3DandBeyond wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...


Basic RPG is not inventory management, at least in the Western tradtion. That is a trope of Light RPGs, or as some people like calling them, JRPGs.

Hmmm.  Fallout 3, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout New Vegas.  Every RPG out there basically that is less an action RPG features inventory management of some type.

And ME1 is 5 years old and in development terms is older than that.  By contrast, action oriented games tend to dispense with inventory and go with finding weapons as you go, on the ground, and so on which is what ME3 started to do.  I truly missed heavy weapons as part of my inventory, but then again they were never needed and pretty useless, other than for burning up Rachni webbing and "eggs".

Yeah, the amount of stuff you had in ME1 got to be a bit much but I like continually upgrading what people were carrying.

And in contrast again, I've played a couple JRPGs where weapon and armor customization is an artform and the setting and all make them seem more like western RPGs but the action is better than any of the genre.  But I wouldn't want ME3 or any ME game to be like them either.

Inventory manamgent exists in Western games of course.

but compared to Light RPGs, as you said, it pales in comparison because the customization is an artform. Mass Effect 1 was more akin to that due to customization options, percentage of success and armor reduction, literally bioling it down to a rote science on what you SHOULD do, versus experimentation and so forth. Games like Skyrim tend to throw that out for either hard numbers, or enhancements through various means. It streamlines the process to make it easy. Which is what Mass Effect 2 and 3 did. They still have it boiled down to what you should do in some respects, Skyrim is really guilty in this since half of their mechanics are broken, but thats a problem with RPGs as a whole anyway.

That said, thematically and by design, Mass Effect is more like a Light RPG than a Western one, because a majority of its mechanics emulate typical Light RPG tropes vs Western tropes, especially in narrative and linearity.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:17 .

[3DandBeyond]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Inventory manamgent exists in Western games of course.

but compared to Light RPGs, as you said, it pales in comparison because the customization is an artform. Mass Effect 1 was more akin to that due to customization options, percentage of success and armor reduction, literally bioling it down to a rote science on what you SHOULD do, versus experimentation and so forth. Games like Skyrim tend to throw that out for either hard numbers, or enhancements through various means. It streamlines the process to make it easy. Which is what Mass Effect 2 and 3 did. They still have it boiled down to what you should do, but thats a problem with RPGs as a whole anyway.

That said, thematically and by design, Mass Effect is more like a Light RPG than a Western one, because a majority of its mechanics emulate typical Light RPG tropes vs Western tropes, especially in narrative and linearity.

But the problem is you do to some extent have to decide (given current processing constraints) what the focus is on.  I've played Demon's Souls and Dark Souls and they are not story heavy games, but very equipment customization heavy.  I've also played Bethesda games and DA and many many others.  A lot of people that play the DS games hate the combat elements in Bethesda games and yeah they are right, but the Bethesda games have huge worlds and stories-you can't compare that element.  You like what you like and find the game that fits that type.  Bethesda games lovers might hate DS games because the story isn't the big thing.  It is really not a big part at all of the games and most of it is found outside the games.  The action and customization and game mechanics and elements are what matter the most.  You are just being the character.  A story is not needed.

Then there are the ME games.  ME is a story game, but it's best feature is that it carries over things you've done from one game to the next.  It's unique and it does take up infrastructure on the disk and processing power to coordinate these elements.  It's not as big as Skyrim because it can't afford to be.  But it isn't all action and customization like DS games because it can't be that either.  And it isn't COD because face it COD games are lucky if the SP is 5 hours long-it's really an extended tutorial geared toward MP.

What I want is for ME to be itself.  It's unique and that's its strength.  In the end it tried to be something it isn't.  This was a game that basically existed in a defined "world" with rules the devs even said were in a bible they used to keep it all straight. 

What this all means is if I want random mindless MP action, I have games for that and some do it better.  If I want a huge story based game that isn't really about maintaining characters and relationships, but features big even free roaming quests, I have games for that and they do that better.  But if I want games with a heart and a soul and that create a true connection between me and the character that is me in the game and with the other characters in that game, there's only one game that has ever done that-ME.  They seem to want to change and ruin that.  And I find that incredibly sad.