712 réponses à ce sujet

[Blueprotoss]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

laecraft wrote...

By the time the story gets to the Catalyst, it's already too late to fix it. Conventional victory would've been possible if the galaxy started doing something about the Reapers in ME2.

Agreed actually.
ME1, the council knew about the Reapers.  As a governing body, it makes sense to deny there are others like Sovereign to the general public but the militaries should have been gearing up.
ME2, should of had Shepard find clues to either more powerful weapons or at least introduce the concept of the crucible there.  Culminating at finding the final clue at the end of the game.
ME3, really should have had the trial to start and hints of military build-ups due to intel from the batarian sector.
But, as the game stands now.  The galaxy is hosed and destined to rely on space magic and poorly conceived plot devices, supposed deus ex devices and silly concepts to devastate the galaxy all for the betterment of gaming art.

ME is actually solely based around space magic because of Mass Relays and Element Zero.

It's soley based around the technobabble sort of science fiction, Mass Relays, biotics and Element Zero included.

Magic is magic whether its in DnD, Star Wars, Bioshock, Shadowrun, or ME.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

ME is actually solely based around space magic because of Mass Relays and Element Zero.

It's soley based around the technobabble sort of science fiction, Mass Relays, biotics and Element Zero included.

Magic is magic whether its in DnD, Star Wars, Bioshock, Shadowrun, or ME.

No there a specific rules for what is and isn't magic within a given universe. Every series is bound by the rules it establishes early on about how the uinverse it takes place in works. http://tvtropes.org/...FictionHardness You don't suddenly throw in something that has no bases in the established universe without explaining it or building up the possiblity first. Other wise you end up with midichlorians.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 19 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .

[JBPBRC]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Other wise you end up with midichlorians.

Or Synthesis.

[GreyLycanTrope]

JBPBRC wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Other wise you end up with midichlorians.

Or Synthesis.

Star Wars: You got technobabble in my space magic!
Mass Effect: You got space magic in my technobabble!

[3DandBeyond]

Greylycantrope wrote...

No there a specific rules for what is and isn't magic within a given universe. Every series is bound by the rules it establishes early on about how the uinverse it takes place in works. http://tvtropes.org/...FictionHardness You don't suddenly throw in something that has no bases in the established universe without explaining it or building up the possiblity first. Other wise you end up with midichlorians.

Exactly.  A writer creates a world and sets up what can exist within it-they may even as in ME create pseudo-science to back it up, but that is a part of the fiction.

Consider Star Trek-a lot of that was considered to be just unrealistic at the time (original series), but you really can see the evolution of science and that things do now exist that were their fiction at the time.

In a very real way, it has taken a long time for the visual arts (movies and TV, I mean) to catch up with and mature to meet written art in regard to SF.  I was there at one of the selected few first showings of 2001:A Space Odyssey that happened across the US.  Prior to 2001, SF was low budget and relegated to B-movie status.  It has come of age.

Star Wars and Star Trek were some of the first mass market consumed SF that set lore for what existed within their universes.  Want to be authentic and write a story within them?  You need to consult the lore or fans will rip you a new one.

What the ME3 writers did is something that would have any true fan crying foul.  You create a "world" and you adhere to its rules-you can vary from it, but you must explain it, back it up.  Elements that don't fit that "world" can't just sit there or be thrown in for fun and entertainment.  There must be a reason and you must be able to use other things in your story to back it up.

The crucible could have been explained as a dark energy weapon, and is ok as a big battery, but that makes the citadel inexplicable because the choices are there--no explanation for their existence or their location----magic.  The kid is there on the citadel, he knows a lot of things (psychic-uses the kid from Shepard's dreams), but he is extremely dense when it comes to other things (geth, Quarian, cleansing fires).  He is not adequately explained, and if his purpose is to explain the reapers, well he's not very good at that either.  There's no basis for his existence (where was he in ME1?), and he provides excuses for his actions that do not play out within the story to this level at all.  He has had a solution (the reapers), and he now has 3 solutions to HIS problem.  He doesn't fit this ME world, his choices do not fit in with the logic created within this ME world, and his solutions are his own for his own problem.

Shepard was also shown as a certain type of person in ME1 and 2.  At the beginning and end of ME3, Shepard has been replaced by an idiot.  That goes against the ME "world" as well.

[3DandBeyond]

Greylycantrope wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Other wise you end up with midichlorians.

Or Synthesis.

Star Wars: You got technobabble in my space magic!
Mass Effect: You got space magic in my technobabble!

Exactly--god, that's good.

[GreyLycanTrope]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Exactly. A writer creates a world and sets up what can exist within it-they may even as in ME create pseudo-science to back it up, but that is a part of the fiction.

Consider Star Trek-a lot of that was considered to be just unrealistic at the time (original series), but you really can see the evolution of science and that things do now exist that were their fiction at the time.

In a very real way, it has taken a long time for the visual arts (movies and TV, I mean) to catch up with and mature to meet written art in regard to SF. I was there at one of the selected few first showings of 2001:A Space Odyssey that happened across the US. Prior to 2001, SF was low budget and relegated to B-movie status. It has come of age.

Star Wars and Star Trek were some of the first mass market consumed SF that set lore for what existed within their universes. Want to be authentic and write a story within them? You need to consult the lore or fans will rip you a new one.

As was the case with Deception, and why it was everyone's favorite punching bag for while.

What the ME3 writers did is something that would have any true fan crying foul. You create a "world" and you adhere to its rules-you can vary from it, but you must explain it, back it up. Elements that don't fit that "world" can't just sit there or be thrown in for fun and entertainment. There must be a reason and you must be able to use other things in your story to back it up.

The crucible could have been explained as a dark energy weapon, and is ok as a big battery, but that makes the citadel inexplicable because the choices are there--no explanation for their existence or their location----magic. The kid is there on the citadel, he knows a lot of things (psychic-uses the kid from Shepard's dreams), but he is extremely dense when it comes to other things (geth, Quarian, cleansing fires). He is not adequately explained, and if his purpose is to explain the reapers, well he's not very good at that either. There's no basis for his existence (where was he in ME1?), and he provides excuses for his actions that do not play out within the story to this level at all. He has had a solution (the reapers), and he now has 3 solutions to HIS problem. He doesn't fit this ME world, his choices do not fit in with the logic created within this ME world, and his solutions are his own for his own problem.

Shepard was also shown as a certain type of person in ME1 and 2. At the beginning and end of ME3, Shepard has been replaced by an idiot. That goes against the ME "world" as well.

Dead on, Walter's "dark and gritty" interpritation of the universe become the prevalent thought in more than a few portions of the game, every concept outside that vision got sidelined when the catalyst showed up, even if the vision itself disreagarded what was established.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 19 juillet 2012 - 05:55 .

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...


Well we bought our access to the ME world-I know I did by buying the games.

Obviously so, since you're posting here. Not quite sure what the point of that was.

And forgive me for doing a slice-and-dice on your post, but I don't think the thread needs a full repetition of a WoT like that.. And were recaps of the games necessary? Most of us have played them, methinks.

In ME1 -(recap) - the goal is impossible

How is it "impossible"? Does anyone actually say it's impossible to stop Saren? Shepard himself comes close right before Anderson contacts him with the pan to steal the Normandy, but that's about all I can find

In ME2  -(recap)-  The goal is impossible.

Does anyone actually say the goal is "impossible." Long odds ain't the same thing as impossible. Unless you're referring to accomplishing the goal and surviving as impossible. Even then, evidence that this is impossible is hard to come by. The box copy calls it a suicide mission, but I'm hard-pressed to recall anyone saying the mission is literally suicide in-game. As opposed to just very, very risky, which isn't at all the same thing. In any event, it's silly to call the SM "impossible" since there isn't enough data on what lies beyond the Omega-4 relay  to make an accurate prediction as to whether or not it's suicide.

In ME3 -- (recap -- nice snark on the opening dialog, btw) --  Shepard-this is impossible.

Huh? While Shepard doesn't propose a plan in the opening sequence, that's because he hasn't got one. And neither does anyone else until the Crucible comes along. But despite not having any plan, he doesn't say it's impossible. I imagine that he thinks it is, but that's just because he isn't a fool. Anyway, in the short time before the invasion and when Shepard gets briefed he doesn't have the time to think much about overall grand strategy.

 Main goal: destroy the reapers-not stop them, because that means they still exist and that's not good enough.  

Kindly refrain from telling me what my Shepards' main goals are.

Don't believe me read the words of the Bioware boss of Marketing, David Silverman, "I'd love to see this get into as many hands as possible. I think this is definitely the best chance we have in the series to really break out
and go truly blockbuster. It really is a natural entry point for people: giant alien race launches all-out war, you have to rally the forces of the universe to counter and see if you can take them down. That's pretty clear.

Yep. Take them down. With the prothean(sic) super-weapon. 

You're getting just a little babble-y in the later parts of this. It almost sounds like you always thought the Crucible wouldn't be necessary, just because everyone's so united and really up for the fight. A sort of triumph of the will. I don't know if I'm meant to get that impression, though.

Original goal: destroy the reapers.
After meeting the lovechild of Shepard and the insane obsession with one poorly written boy, the new goal: stop the conflict between organics and synthetics.

Like I said, not all my Sheps share that goal. For my primary Shep it's more like this:

Original goal: stop the reapers.
After meeting (snark deleted):  same goal: stop the reapers. The Reapers were a bad solution to a non-existent problem, and what the Catalyst thought he was doing is of no interest to Shep. Her only concern is how to end this insanity with the least amount of destruction.

Old wisdom in all ME games and even throughout ME3: Nothing is impossible even if the writers say it is-they are fooling you and you know that's what ME games are really about, achieving the impossible.  This is the redeeming value or moral of the stories and redemption is a core concept throughout.

Except, of course, for all the impossible things Shepard wants to do that end up actually being impossible. Shepard can't convince the Council that the Reapers are real Shepard can't save both squadmates on Virmie. Sheaprd can't save the SR-1. Shepard can't avoid working with Cerberus to stop the Collectors. And so on.

Old vision: goals are achieved in keeping with the values and morality of the Shepard you create and by people through perseverance and because of their belief in Shepard.
New vision: original goals well uh not really necessarily achieved.  Hopefully, they are, but not if the choices aren't true, but if they are one might achieve the goal and who the hell cares about morals and values and people that believed in Shepard anyway?  This is Shepard's choice, not theirs.  And, anyway we have a new goal and any choice but reject will achieve that cooler goal, the kid's goal-you know Shepard's new BFF.  Coool words, god Shepard.  Coool look, green eyed cyborgs.  Who cares about EDI and the geth, never were important and they certainly weren't people.  What idiot fan ever got the idea that they mattered  

Huh? You want to destroy the Reapers? You can. And nobody said that EDI and the geth don't matter. (Though if someone wants to have his Shep think that neither of them matter, he's free to do that.)

And of course the choices are true.

Edit:  I think for my next playthrough I'm going to make a Shepard who's so dedicated to the destruction of the Reapers at any cost that he refuses to accept victory when it's right in front of him, and so dooms the galaxy. A nice classical tragedy, that.

Modifié par AlanC9, 19 juillet 2012 - 06:56 .

[Blueprotoss]

Greylycantrope wrote...

No there a specific rules for what is and isn't magic within a given universe. Every series is bound by the rules it establishes early on about how the uinverse it takes place in works. http://tvtropes.org/...FictionHardness You don't suddenly throw in something that has no bases in the established universe without explaining it or building up the possiblity first. Other wise you end up with midichlorians.

Again magic is magic whether its in DnD, Star Wars, Bioshock, Shadowrun, or ME.  Btw those franchises aren't bound by the real rules just like how midchlorians and Element Zero donn't exist.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

No there a specific rules for what is and isn't magic within a given universe. Every series is bound by the rules it establishes early on about how the uinverse it takes place in works. http://tvtropes.org/...FictionHardness You don't suddenly throw in something that has no bases in the established universe without explaining it or building up the possiblity first. Other wise you end up with midichlorians.

Again magic is magic whether its in DnD, Star Wars, Bioshock, Shadowrun, or ME.  Btw those franchises aren't bound by the real rules just like how midchlorians and Element Zero donn't exist.

I never said real rules I said rules they themselves established. If dragons suddenly showed up in space to fight the Reapers you should take issue.

[Tibbur]

Is hackket lying to me? My galaxy at war screen says I'm holding steady and winning in key locations.

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...


Kindly refrain from telling me what my Shepards' main goals are.

The goal of everyone was to destroy them not to take them home as pets.  And if the game ignores how any one Shepard plays it then it is not doing its job.

Hackett and Anderson and everyone, including YOUR Shepard says they must be destroyed.   That was the goal.

[Bizantura]

Bioware had the chance to have the "trilogy of the decade". Maybe not in sales terms but definitly in story and gameplay department if ME3 was of the quality of ME1&2. They could have restored much of that with the EC but didn't. There chance came and went, end of story. Trilogy sank in mediocracy, nothing to be ashamed about but nothing to be exceedingly proud about.

[Blueprotoss]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I never said real rules I said rules they themselves established. If dragons suddenly showed up in space to fight the Reapers you should take issue.

Yet the rules in ME are established by magic with Mass Relays and Element Zero.  Btw biotics are the mages in ME.

Bizantura wrote...

Bioware had the chance to have the "trilogy of the decade". Maybe not in sales terms but definitly in story and gameplay department if ME3 was of the quality of ME1&2. They could have restored much of that with the EC but didn't. There chance came and went, end of story. Trilogy sank in mediocracy, nothing to be ashamed about but nothing to be exceedingly proud about.

If ME sank into mediocraty then a small enidng uproar wouldn't have ended and you shouldn't be surprised that there wasn't going be new endings for ME3 anyway. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 19 juillet 2012 - 07:29 .

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

snipped---
And of course the choices are true.

Edit:  I think for my next playthrough I'm going to make a Shepard who's so dedicated to the destruction of the Reapers at any cost that he refuses to accept victory when it's right in front of him, and so dooms the galaxy. A nice classical tragedy, that.

Provide proof outside of meta-gaming that you or your Shepard would know the choices to be anything other than fabrications made by the star kid who could be lying to you.  Independent corroboration is needed.  The only way Shepard can know what a choice will do is by choosing.  Not a great way to determine if you can be electrocuted by touching a live wire, nor if a gun is loaded by pointing it at your head.  Prove it.

And refuse is not a choice either if one is meta-gaming.  They've set it up to be impossible to make a good choice unless you like superficiality.  If you delve into what they mean they are non-choices.

Some think a renegade would choose Control-because of the power.  Well that lacks the understanding of why people want power.  They don't aspire to it just to have it if they cannot show others that it is they that have the power.   TIM wants it but I sincerely doubt he wants to die for it and never be able to get recognition for asserting it.  And that is just a minor point.  He also only ever thought he could assert control because he was indoctrinated-well, somebody was lying to him then.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

I never said real rules I said rules they themselves established. If dragons suddenly showed up in space to fight the Reapers you should take issue.

Yet the rules in ME are established by magic with Mass Relays and Element Zero.  Btw biotics are the mages in ME.

The rules are explained by technobabble, explaining that its NOT magic but fictional science. A novel concept in a Science Fiction series truly. You're being thick on purpose now.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 19 juillet 2012 - 07:37 .

[Blueprotoss]

Greylycantrope wrote...

The rules are explained by technobabble, explaining that its NOT magic but fictional science. A novel concept in a Science Fiction series truly. You're being thick on purpose now.

Again the rules in ME are established by magic with Mass Relays and Element Zero, which makes biotics into mages in ME's univrese.  Its still magic even if its explained in the codex.  I love how you're saying I'm thick based on how I'm focusing of the facts not opinion.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 19 juillet 2012 - 07:43 .

[3DandBeyond]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

I never said real rules I said rules they themselves established. If dragons suddenly showed up in space to fight the Reapers you should take issue.

Yet the rules in ME are established by magic with Mass Relays and Element Zero.  Btw biotics are the mages in ME.

The rules are explained by technobabble, explaining that its NOT magic but fictional science. A novel concept in a Science Fiction series truly. You're being thick on purpose now.

Exactly.  They can create pseudo science in a story and it's part of the fiction.  If you have a story that takes great pains to at least indicate that some "magical" aspect or unknown science exists in the universe created, it is not magic or fantasy anymore.  It is Science Fiction. 

I can say that we all now communicate through thought particles - unseen orbs that are beyond our visible spectrum - that were discovered 100 years ago and are ennervated much like nerve cells in the body through ultra high electrical impulses.  Each person in the galaxy has an implant that can interpret a thought and send it out to the correct recipient.  Ok, I explained that incredible and stupid as it may be.  If instead I said that I just talk and someone on another planet can hear me, well that's magic.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 19 juillet 2012 - 07:53 .

[3DandBeyond]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

The rules are explained by technobabble, explaining that its NOT magic but fictional science. A novel concept in a Science Fiction series truly. You're being thick on purpose now.

Again the rules in ME are established by magic with Mass Relays and Element Zero, which makes biotics into mages in ME's univrese.  Its still magic even if its explained in the codex.  I love how you're saying I'm thick based on how I'm focusing of the facts not opinion.

It is fiction and not magic.  Magic or fantasy does not utilize any scientific (even fictional science) to explain it.  There are similarities but often magic just is and SF is explained within the science of the fiction created.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

The rules are explained by technobabble, explaining that its NOT magic but fictional science. A novel concept in a Science Fiction series truly. You're being thick on purpose now.

Again the rules in ME are established by magic with Mass Relays and Element Zero, which makes biotics into mages in ME's univrese.  Its still magic even if its explained in the codex.  I love how you're saying I'm thick based on how I'm focusing of the facts not opinion.

You're focusing on repeating "It magic", that is not a fact. Do I really need to reiterate that science fiction is usually existing sceince modifed with a bit of fictional physics to allow cool things to happen? They work within these confines to establish what is and isn't possible within said fictional universe. Any thing that is established to be possible with in fictional universe = science fiction, anything that isn't = magic.

Yes I know mass effect fields and biotics don't occur in reality. In Mass Effect however they have been established with fictional science. FICTIONAL SCIENCE, NOT DRAGONS OR MAGIC THEY ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME. Magic is not explained in universe. I hope I've been clear.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 19 juillet 2012 - 08:15 .

[Blueprotoss]

3DandBeyond wrote...

It is fiction and not magic.  Magic or fantasy does not utilize any scientific (even fictional science) to explain it.  There are similarities but often magic just is and SF is explained within the science of the fiction created.

Element Zero thats all you need to know about magic in ME because its a rare mineral that enables organism to have magcal powers like a mage in DA or Baldur's Gate.

[Blueprotoss]

Greylycantrope wrote...

You're focusing on repeating "It magic", that is not a fact. Do I really need to reiterate that science fiction is usually existing sceince modifed with a bit of fictional physics to allow cool things to happen? They work within these confines to establish what is and isn't possible within said fictional universe. Any thing that is established to be possible with in fictional universe = science fiction, anything that isn't = magic.

Here's a real fact that Element Zero and Mass Relays don't exist while they're pretty much defined as magic.

Greylycantrope wrote... 

Yes I know mass effect fields and biotics don't occur in reality. In Mass Effect however they have been established with fictional science. FICTIONAL SCIENCE, NOT DRAGONS OR MAGIC THEY ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME. I hope I've been clear. 

Again the rules in ME are established by magic with Mass Relays and Element Zero, which makes biotics into mages in ME's univrese.  Its still magic even if its explained in the codex.  I love how you're saying I'm thick based on how I'm focusing of the facts not opinion.  Btw dragons aren't always based on magic, which is why you should give up with that straw-mann.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 19 juillet 2012 - 08:19 .

[Examurai]

No.
Like some users said in this topic, conventional victory doesn't work for ME3 in its current plot line. They have to rewrite some parts of the plot/dialogue through out the game. It may sound simple but it will be too damn expensive for Bioware. They will have to release it through multiple DLC's and make us pay for each one, to compensate for the cost and minimum memory capabilities one DLC can take.

Modifié par Examurai1, 19 juillet 2012 - 08:20 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Blueprotoss wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

It is fiction and not magic.  Magic or fantasy does not utilize any scientific (even fictional science) to explain it.  There are similarities but often magic just is and SF is explained within the science of the fiction created.

Element Zero thats all you need to know about magic in ME because its a rare mineral that enables organism to have magcal powers like a mage in DA or Baldur's Gate.

It's a rare element that essentially allows the manifulation of mass, mainly mass's effects on weight, no more no less.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 19 juillet 2012 - 08:20 .

[AresKeith]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

You're focusing on repeating "It magic", that is not a fact. Do I really need to reiterate that science fiction is usually existing sceince modifed with a bit of fictional physics to allow cool things to happen? They work within these confines to establish what is and isn't possible within said fictional universe. Any thing that is established to be possible with in fictional universe = science fiction, anything that isn't = magic.

Here's a real fact that Element Zero and Mass Relays don't exist.

Greylycantrope wrote... 

Yes I know mass effect fields and biotics don't occur in reality. In Mass Effect however they have been established with fictional science. FICTIONAL SCIENCE, NOT DRAGONS OR MAGIC THEY ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME. I hope I've been clear. 

Again the rules in ME are established by magic with Mass Relays and Element Zero, which makes biotics into mages in ME's univrese.  Its still magic even if its explained in the codex.  I love how you're saying I'm thick based on how I'm focusing of the facts not opinion.  Btw dragons aren't always based on magic, which is why you should give up with that straw-mann.

just because its not in the real world doessn't mean its magic, in the Mass Effect universe it science, which makes it Science Fiction in our world, the Synthesis ending on the other hand completely shatters what Sci-Fi is