712 réponses à ce sujet

[Benny8484]

ufc345 wrote...

Why is this still a thing. Just let Bioware work on something else that isn't the ending

Because the breath scene left more questions than answers?  Destroy ending = genocide?

Because the control ending makes shepard out to be a hypocrit by opposing the Illusive Mans beliefs all throughout Mass Effect 2 & 3?

Because "synthesis" came out of nowhere and has nothing to do with the ME universe?  What ever happened to "Does this unit have a soul" & Edi: "Now I know what it feels like to be alive" in ME2?

Plotholes everywhere & we want answers.  Such as, Why did I go through the effort of saving the Rachni?  Why do we even have war assets at all if they are not shown?

Modifié par Benny8484, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:37 .

[SpamBot2000]

ufc345 wrote...

Why is this still a thing. Just let Bioware work on something else that isn't the ending

It's abundantly clear to me that I at least am in no position of power over Bioware whatsoever, and thus can neither keep them from working nor allow them to work on anything other than what they wish to work on. I am simply supplying information on how these choices would be received by me, a past and possibly future customer, and those who share my position. And yes, it would be easier for all concerned if the certainty existed that they have in fact received this feedback. But based on their released statements, no such certainty can be assumed. 

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:38 .

[ddraigcoch123]

amat3rasu wrote...

I wish people would stop trying to change things they have no control over. It's done. The trilogy is over. Try to move on guys.

i hear you... but... BW set the scene for all this in creating a galaxy/world and a hero who had adhered to certain conventions within the ME form...
Shepard has always faced impossible, unwinable odds and has won through.. and yet, as has been said, at the end of the trilogy... Shepards end we are left with really un-heroic choices even for a sacrifice end...

I want/need at least one ending where Shepard walks away and gets the girl... but if that really doesnt fit with the creators vision for the end then i want a noble death for my hero and I want her to know that all the things she has been fighting for are safe/won... and for me that does kind of involve making sure that my friends and LI get to let me know they are ok (yeah deathbed scenes suck and are cheesy but you can make them well arty...) and that the reapers didnt win by blasting us all back to a techo stone age... and according to all the ME 'science' and the lead writer himself the end of ME3 leaves a galaxy wasteland...

and you know if the galaxy is a f***ed wasteland then i really need a survive for my Shepard who i want to continue to fight and protect the people/LI from the chaos and violence that will come in that post apocalyptic galaxy...

look this might be old to some people... but i was kinda looking forward to coming back on a regular basis and doing trilogy play throughs and adding DLC as it came out but the ending is so amiguous at best and a denial of the soul of the game at worst that i dont think i will have the heart to do it.. or i will stop after the goodbye to Liara at the totally 'gratifying' but implausible rescue by the Normandy...

i'm actually trying to protect my personal 'investment' in the game so i can continue to enjoy it... and i think ME and BW are better than this tired rip off of too many other games misery endings...

Modifié par ddraigcoch123, 20 juillet 2012 - 12:38 .

[3DandBeyond]

SpamBot2000 wrote...


Just to clarify a bit here. At least on my part, I am not overly amoured with the Crucible plot element as such, but feel that it would be important enough for Mass Effect to have a decent ending to let go of some of the less offensive stuff and just point out that it would be very feasible to implement this without reworking the entire game. The entire debate on who's got the biggest fleet is secondary in importance to allowing for an acceptable Win State for the entire series.

So, there's the Crucible. It docks and activates. Somehow this messes the Reapers up enough that they are vulnerable to our mighty fleet. Great. Not an entirely "conventional" victory then, but a hell of a lot more sensible than all-out Space Magic, since the Citadel is known to be Reaper tech and the Crucible somehow interferes with its functions. Maybe the Reapers are so powerful in the first place because the Citadel would normally assist them somehow.

So the point would be: There's no need to convince everyone about whose fleet is bigger or "it's not how big the fleet is, it's what you do with it". That's really an unnecessary and unwinnable battle if we look at the big picture, which should be about salvaging what can be salvaged out of this mess. Of course not everyone agrees that this is a worthy goal. I for one happen to think that it somehow still is. But the more effort and time is wasted on other goals, the less likely it will be to salvage anything at all here.

Well, this would be in keeping with them actually sticking with the idea the crucible was a dark energy weapon that could manipulate mass effect fields and maybe lower the mass or reapers and make them more vulnerable.  They decided to go with stuff they thought sounded cool and looked cool rather than something that fit in with the trilogy.

[3DandBeyond]

amat3rasu wrote...

I wish people would stop trying to change things they have no control over. It's done. The trilogy is over. Try to move on guys.

Well, it actually is not over.  And you are correct we can't control what they do, never could.  We can suggest and ask and plead and beg for things we'd like to see and they can say "no".  However, they do intend to release ME3 DLC and as such it has not been released.  Some of us would actually like to want to buy it, but since it is going to be pre-ending DLC, that may even give you additional war assets, if it has no impact on the endings what use is it?  I don't consider DLC that leads to crap endings that I already have and don't care to relive makes much sense.  However, there's an extremely slim possibility that new DLC that adds war assets could do something to add to the ending.  Highly improbable, but consider this:

Sometime I think about a year ago or more there was a lot of speculation about what ME3 would be like and one person kept posting what s/he hoped it would not be.  This person was prophetic and basically spelled out much of what the ending that was released was.  If ME3 had read that and listened to that one person we might not have gotten the crap we got.  It's far easier for a dev to do things "right" the first time than to try and fix it later.  They might make some great DLC, but I'd rather ask them for things before it comes out then complain about it after it comes out.

[OhoniX]

You do get a victory through the "refuse" option. Two, in fact. One, you get the personal victory of doing things your own way, even if at the cost of all sentient life in the galaxy. Two, you get the victory of the next cycle taking out the Reapers because they were more prudent than you and had the stones to pull the trigger.

If you want more than that, then you should have picked a different option, this is like saying that you're upset because you ordered chocolate ice cream and it didn't have any strawberries in it.

[Discouraged_one]

Even Moar DLC

[3DandBeyond]

Benny8484 wrote...

ufc345 wrote...

Why is this still a thing. Just let Bioware work on something else that isn't the ending

Because the breath scene left more questions than answers?  Destroy ending = genocide?

Because
the control ending makes shepard out to be a hypocrit by opposing the
Illusive Mans beliefs all throughout Mass Effect 2 & 3?

Because
"synthesis" came out of nowhere and has nothing to do with the ME
universe?  What ever happened to "Does this unit have a soul" & Edi:
"Now I know what it feels like to be alive" in ME2?

Plotholes
everywhere & we want answers.  Such as, Why did I go through the
effort of saving the Rachni?  Why do we even have war assets at all if
they are not shown?

SpamBot2000 wrote...

It's abundantly clear to me that I at least am in no position of power over Bioware whatsoever, and thus can neither keep them from working nor allow them to work on anything other than what they wish to work on. I am simply supplying information on how these choices would be received by me, a past and possibly future customer, and those who share my position. And yes, it would be easier for all concerned if the certainty existed that they have in fact received this feedback. But based on their released statements, no such certainty can be assumed. 

The problem is they can't even agree on what everything means and what will happen.  Twitter is their main source for releasing information.  I think they forgot this site exists long before ME3 came out-that is, unless they want you to vote what design you want for ME shoes.  So, this is the place where they come to discuss non-game merchandise and twitter is where they go to explain (and contradict one another on) in game content.

It's like they don't even ever talk to each other at all.  Mac Walters in a launch day interview said no postgame DLC because everything is a wasteland so it'd be pointless.  Ok.  Everyone thought this was true-relays destroyed, planets destroyed, The Final Hours said the crucible would cause a galactic dark ages.  Yep, the galaxy is a wasteland. 

Then they went on twitter and said that the relays exploding would not destroy star systems and planets.  They forgot there's a codex Desperate Measures that says a ruptured relay would ruin terrestrial worlds. 

And then they released the EC and said they had no idea how anyone could have come to the conclusion that the galaxy was ruined and that everything was so dark because that was never their intent.  Ok, I am no rocket scientist but someone here needs a reality check.

So, Bioware could say today that they won't ever do anything more about the ending or that this is the end of Shepard or that the breath scene means Shepard lives (though Hepler says the breath scene means Shepard dies).  Then they could just dump it all make ME4 and have that be about flying pigs and they would tell us that we should have known ME4 would be about flying pigs because they clearly meant that.

[Blueprotoss]

Skirata129 wrote...

uhuh. and so to create this atomic weapon, they violated established laws of reality (most major powers had an atomic weapons program and were racing to develop it), the deployment of said weapon has bad and apparently unconnected ramifications for those who use it such as the immediate destruction of all freeways and airport terminals, and the pilot of the Enola gay either dies outright or gets shot out of the sky? Also, no one was aware of said weapon before an mystical apparition presented it to them?

Boy, Historians sure would have loved to know this.

EDIT: And the best part about all this? CONVENTIONAL VICTORY WAS EASILY POSSIBLE.

The Atomic bomb was anything from a contenional weapon especially when nobody knew what effects they would have one the Earth like destroying the whole atmosphere.  You should really do some reseach whether its real life or ME related.

[PsyrenY]

Benny8484 wrote...

ufc345 wrote...

Why is this still a thing. Just let Bioware work on something else that isn't the ending

Because the breath scene left more questions than answers?  Destroy ending = genocide?

Because the control ending makes shepard out to be a hypocrit by opposing the Illusive Mans beliefs all throughout Mass Effect 2 & 3?

Because "synthesis" came out of nowhere and has nothing to do with the ME universe?  What ever happened to "Does this unit have a soul" & Edi: "Now I know what it feels like to be alive" in ME2?

Plotholes everywhere & we want answers.  Such as, Why did I go through the effort of saving the Rachni?  Why do we even have war assets at all if they are not shown?

QQ

[Taboo]

You were told two times before reaching the Citadel for the first time that the Reapers couldn't be beaten conventionally.

[ddraigcoch123]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You were told two times before reaching the Citadel for the first time that the Reapers couldn't be beaten conventionally.

Ok so how did we kill the handful of Reapers that we did 'beat' across the 3 games?

And what is conventional... seems to me that a combination of Geth and Quarian skill, knowledge and experience wouldnt come up with a 'conventional' solution...

Collector base was a suicide mission... I obviously kept playing and working at it till I not only survived.. hum otherwise no ME3 and reunion with LIara (for whom I choose to save the Galaxy!!!) but brought everyone home... soooo suicide mission... not so much

I think the point is that I know the way that BW/writers have set up the ending you cant do it any other way, and I also know that BW/writers could have set it up differently... they are after the real 'God' of the galaxy... so its their choice that makes no honourable choice for Shepard and its their choice to blast the galaxy to pieces in the process...

Just for clarity I have no problem with Shepard making the final sacrifice... she already did saving Joker and was willing to against Saren and the Collectors... its the manner and context of that sacrifice and its effects on the galaxy  that suck... and the fact that if you honestly evaluate whether all the hard choices, replays to get a different option and dedication to give Shepard the best outcome are reflected in the games final choices then anyone who has played (and played right through all 3 acts....) has to accept that they are not and for an in depth choice and consequences driven RPG that is a huge let down...

[AresKeith]

ddraigcoch123 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You were told two times before reaching the Citadel for the first time that the Reapers couldn't be beaten conventionally.

Ok so how did we kill the handful of Reapers that we did 'beat' across the 3 games?

And what is conventional... seems to me that a combination of Geth and Quarian skill, knowledge and experience wouldnt come up with a 'conventional' solution...

Collector base was a suicide mission... I obviously kept playing and working at it till I not only survived.. hum otherwise no ME3 and reunion with LIara (for whom I choose to save the Galaxy!!!) but brought everyone home... soooo suicide mission... not so much

I think the point is that I know the way that BW/writers have set up the ending you cant do it any other way, and I also know that BW/writers could have set it up differently... they are after the real 'God' of the galaxy... so its their choice that makes no honourable choice for Shepard and its their choice to blast the galaxy to pieces in the process...

Just for clarity I have no problem with Shepard making the final sacrifice... she already did saving Joker and was willing to against Saren and the Collectors... its the manner and context of that sacrifice and its effects on the galaxy  that suck... and the fact that if you honestly evaluate whether all the hard choices, replays to get a different option and dedication to give Shepard the best outcome are reflected in the games final choices then anyone who has played (and played right through all 3 acts....) has to accept that they are not and for an in depth choice and consequences driven RPG that is a huge let down...

and wasn't Shepard beating the odds and doing the impossible the whole Trilogy, so it really should be possible

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You were told two times before reaching the Citadel for the first time that the Reapers couldn't be beaten conventionally.

We've also been told:

The rachni were extinct
Reapers don't exist
Geth want to kill all organics
Krogan are unthinking brutes (okay that one's largely true)
Ilos is just a legend
Nobody comes back from the Omega IV relay
AI can't be trusted
Quarians are all thieves
The only way you'll get Ash into a miniskirt and thigh-high boots is if you buy her dinner first.


Shepard really should learn not to trust other people's unsupported assertions

[Seival]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You were told two times before reaching the Citadel for the first time that the Reapers couldn't be beaten conventionally.

This.

...Also the endings were already set in stone twice. And BioWare already said officially, that the ending concept will not be changed... But some people just can't understand that, and keep wasting their time for useless petitions, instead of accepting ME Trilogy as it is.

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

and wasn't Shepard beating the odds and doing the impossible the whole Trilogy, so it really should be possible

Shepard is only human and you can't defeat the Reapers conventially just based on the difference of technology.

[Haiyato]

AresKeith wrote...

ddraigcoch123 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You were told two times before reaching the Citadel for the first time that the Reapers couldn't be beaten conventionally.

Ok so how did we kill the handful of Reapers that we did 'beat' across the 3 games?

And what is conventional... seems to me that a combination of Geth and Quarian skill, knowledge and experience wouldnt come up with a 'conventional' solution...

Collector base was a suicide mission... I obviously kept playing and working at it till I not only survived.. hum otherwise no ME3 and reunion with LIara (for whom I choose to save the Galaxy!!!) but brought everyone home... soooo suicide mission... not so much

I think the point is that I know the way that BW/writers have set up the ending you cant do it any other way, and I also know that BW/writers could have set it up differently... they are after the real 'God' of the galaxy... so its their choice that makes no honourable choice for Shepard and its their choice to blast the galaxy to pieces in the process...

Just for clarity I have no problem with Shepard making the final sacrifice... she already did saving Joker and was willing to against Saren and the Collectors... its the manner and context of that sacrifice and its effects on the galaxy  that suck... and the fact that if you honestly evaluate whether all the hard choices, replays to get a different option and dedication to give Shepard the best outcome are reflected in the games final choices then anyone who has played (and played right through all 3 acts....) has to accept that they are not and for an in depth choice and consequences driven RPG that is a huge let down...

and wasn't Shepard beating the odds and doing the impossible the whole Trilogy, so it really should be possible

Yea its about beating all odds and doing the impossible, but at the moment conventional victory is not a possiblity. Go in game and read the war assets description on the Galaxy War map. Read about the alliance fleets and see how many we lost. We see an Alliance Dreadnought getting blown up by a Reaper Destroyer (1v1) and that is with reduce/ possibly no kinetic barriers active at the beginning when you and Anderson are making a run for it. I honestly do not see a conventional victory unless you bust out the wand. This is why you are told throughout the game it is not possible by various characters.

[ddraigcoch123]

iakus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You were told two times before reaching the Citadel for the first time that the Reapers couldn't be beaten conventionally.

We've also been told:

The rachni were extinct
Reapers don't exist
Geth want to kill all organics
Krogan are unthinking brutes (okay that one's largely true)
Ilos is just a legend
Nobody comes back from the Omega IV relay
AI can't be trusted
Quarians are all thieves
The only way you'll get Ash into a miniskirt and thigh-high boots is if you buy her dinner first.


Shepard really should learn not to trust other people's unsupported assertions

Very good... totally agree

[ddraigcoch123]

Haiyato wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

ddraigcoch123 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You were told two times before reaching the Citadel for the first time that the Reapers couldn't be beaten conventionally.

Ok so how did we kill the handful of Reapers that we did 'beat' across the 3 games?

And what is conventional... seems to me that a combination of Geth and Quarian skill, knowledge and experience wouldnt come up with a 'conventional' solution...

Collector base was a suicide mission... I obviously kept playing and working at it till I not only survived.. hum otherwise no ME3 and reunion with LIara (for whom I choose to save the Galaxy!!!) but brought everyone home... soooo suicide mission... not so much

I think the point is that I know the way that BW/writers have set up the ending you cant do it any other way, and I also know that BW/writers could have set it up differently... they are after the real 'God' of the galaxy... so its their choice that makes no honourable choice for Shepard and its their choice to blast the galaxy to pieces in the process...

Just for clarity I have no problem with Shepard making the final sacrifice... she already did saving Joker and was willing to against Saren and the Collectors... its the manner and context of that sacrifice and its effects on the galaxy  that suck... and the fact that if you honestly evaluate whether all the hard choices, replays to get a different option and dedication to give Shepard the best outcome are reflected in the games final choices then anyone who has played (and played right through all 3 acts....) has to accept that they are not and for an in depth choice and consequences driven RPG that is a huge let down...

and wasn't Shepard beating the odds and doing the impossible the whole Trilogy, so it really should be possible

Yea its about beating all odds and doing the impossible, but at the moment conventional victory is not a possiblity. Go in game and read the war assets description on the Galaxy War map. Read about the alliance fleets and see how many we lost. We see an Alliance Dreadnought getting blown up by a Reaper Destroyer (1v1) and that is with reduce/ possibly no kinetic barriers active at the beginning when you and Anderson are making a run for it. I honestly do not see a conventional victory unless you bust out the wand. This is why you are told throughout the game it is not possible by various characters.

sorry but my EMS/Galaxy readiness said our chances of winning were even... and Shepard was told a lot of things were not possible... and its not the superweapon per se I have a problem with its the psychic ghost synth that appears from nowhere and the options we are forced to confront... so yep the way that BW has set up the end game you can only do it the way they set it up...

kinda the point of discussing why it doesnt bear scrutiny, isnt faithful to the themes and underlying game mythology and can be changed by the 'creators' (BW/mac/casey)... who apparently we will always will rebel against!! so they should have seen this response coming

[AresKeith]

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

and wasn't Shepard beating the odds and doing the impossible the whole Trilogy, so it really should be possible

Shepard is only human and you can't defeat the Reapers conventially just based on the difference of technology.

it wasn't just that, we had Ex-Cerberus scientist who studied Collectors tech, we had salvaged Reaper tech for them, the Crucible could have been written to be a Dark Energy weapon

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

and wasn't Shepard beating the odds and doing the impossible the whole Trilogy, so it really should be possible

Shepard is only human and you can't defeat the Reapers conventially just based on the difference of technology.

it wasn't just that, we had Ex-Cerberus scientist who studied Collectors tech, we had salvaged Reaper tech for them, the Crucible could have been written to be a Dark Energy weapon

Reengineering tech isn't going to help even if we knew how to use based on the focus towards the Crucible and the time/resources involved with it.  

[Geneaux486]

The victory is that the Reapers are stopped in the next cycle.  A victory in the present cycle without the Cruicble, ironically, would be the first actual instance of "space magic" in the Mass Effect series.

[ddraigcoch123]

yeah i guess it is quite ironic that it ends up being Liara that saves the galaxy with her 'project'...unless (or as well as) the reapers didnt win quite the same victory as they did over the Protheons due to our preparedness and some civilisations.. the Asari for one... managed to survive and re-start from the same level of development...

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You were told two times before reaching the Citadel for the first time that the Reapers couldn't be beaten conventionally.

We've also been told:

The rachni were extinct
Reapers don't exist
Geth want to kill all organics
Krogan are unthinking brutes (okay that one's largely true)
Ilos is just a legend
Nobody comes back from the Omega IV relay
AI can't be trusted
Quarians are all thieves
The only way you'll get Ash into a miniskirt and thigh-high boots is if you buy her dinner first.


Shepard really should learn not to trust other people's unsupported assertions

I seem to recall a Suicide Mission in ME2----hmmmm, how'd that work out?  Oh still alive.  You shouldn't be.  It's written in stone.

[3DandBeyond]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The victory is that the Reapers are stopped in the next cycle.  A victory in the present cycle without the Cruicble, ironically, would be the first actual instance of "space magic" in the Mass Effect series.

No it wouldn't.  Did you miss the whole 3 choices concept or did that seem ultra real?


The crucible was originally supposed to be a dark energy device. It would manipulate Mass Effect fields and be able to reduce the mass of reapers making them more vulnerable.  On planets they reduce their mass and that weakens their shields which are kinetic barriers.  Kinetic barriers are resistant to projectile weapons but not toxins, temperature, and radiation.  So, the barriers could have been weakened by the crucible and allowed them to be attacked and even beaten.

The writers used a very weak plot device in 2 key places here and told everyone it's impossible to beat the reapers just so those plot devices would be needed.  You need a MacGuffin and a Deus ex Machina, but any book publisher will likely reject your book if you include these in them.  Book publishers consider such writing lazy.  If the Crucible had been a dark energy weapon or device and at the beginning of ME3 they had looked at the plans and understood that, it would no longer be a real MacGuffin.  That would have put it back into the possibly real category as opposed to the total space magic ending.

The fact there was a suicide mission in one game that turned out not to be suicide at all and that many impossible things are done in all of the games, calling something impossible and meaning it in these games is a boneheaded move.  In real life if you are told something is impossible do you just give up?  I know we aren't fighting reapers, but impossible is impossible, right?  Never ever try because you will fail.  If people believed that I don't even think we'd be having a discussion because there would be no ME, no Bioware, no Canada, no America, no cars, no planes, no rockets, no space stations, no Jewish people left on Earth, no democracy of any sort, no fire, no wheel, no life outside of caves, and etc.  It is an intrinsic part of being a human being that when someone says a thing is impossible, you say, "no, it isn't.  Watch me."