712 réponses à ce sujet

[Geneaux486]

darthoptimus003 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
thats why the Crucible was meant to be Dark Energy weapon

It is.  It was stated repeatedly in the game that the Crucible does use dark energy.

thanks for proving the point
IT was supose to be a dark energy wepon but now in the last 5 min  it shoots space magic with no ties to the main plot and introduces a space brat
conventional victory is possible we have done it
blow the catalist and weaken the reapers cause there boss is dead yeah space brat said he controls them so there

You have no idea whether or not that would work, and odds are it wouldn't since nothing of the sort was mentioned in the game.  No ties to the main plot?  The Illusive Man was preaching control for the entire game.  Destroy was the ideal goal for the entire game.  The rift between synthetics and organics was a major theme as early as your first meeting with Legion in Mass Effect 2, and the basic concept of synthesis was foreshadowed when Legion sacrificed himself to grant his people enlightenment, so how exactly can concepts that have been relevant to the series for a sizeable portion of it have no ties to the main plot?  The Crucible can destroy the Reapers as it was expected to, so technically you're complaining about a change in function that doesn't exist.  The twist is we're given two other choices on how to end things as well.  If you don't like it, don't pick them.  You're not forced to synthesize, so why do you care that the option is available?

[AresKeith]

Geneaux486 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
thats why the Crucible was meant to be Dark Energy weapon

It is.  It was stated repeatedly in the game that the Crucible does use dark energy.

thanks for proving the point
IT was supose to be a dark energy wepon but now in the last 5 min  it shoots space magic with no ties to the main plot and introduces a space brat
conventional victory is possible we have done it
blow the catalist and weaken the reapers cause there boss is dead yeah space brat said he controls them so there

You have no idea whether or not that would work, and odds are it wouldn't since nothing of the sort was mentioned in the game.  No ties to the main plot?  The Illusive Man was preaching control for the entire game.  Destroy was the ideal goal for the entire game.  The rift between synthetics and organics was a major theme as early as your first meeting with Legion in Mass Effect 2, and the basic concept of synthesis was foreshadowed when Legion sacrificed himself to grant his people enlightenment, so how exactly can concepts that have been relevant to the series for a sizeable portion of it have no ties to the main plot?  The Crucible can destroy the Reapers as it was expected to, so technically you're complaining about a change in function that doesn't exist.  The twist is we're given two other choices on how to end things as well.  If you don't like it, don't pick them.  You're not forced to synthesize, so why do you care that the option is available?

yes it would have worked because the Reapers we did kill was because of there vulnerabilities when their on Planets. And Synthetics vs Organics was not a Major Theme in ME, it was A theme because there was no Major theme, that was a BS cop out just to have that lazy poor written ending. Everyone assumed the Crucible would destroy the Reapers no one really knew what it was going to do. People care because Synthesis shouldn't even be an option, it goes against everything Mass Effect was about and if people does choose it they force the whole Galaxy to become one new DNA

[Geneaux486]

AresKeith wrote...
yes it would have worked because the Reapers we did kill was because of there vulnerabilities when their on Planets.

And this proves not only that destroying the Citadel would destroy the Catalyst, but that destroying the Catalyst would somehow hinder beings who are "each a nation, independent" how exactly? 

And Synthetics vs Organics was not a Major Theme in ME,

 
Yes it was.  Replay ME2 and interact with Legion at all, or replay the Rannoch story arc in ME3.  It absolutely was a major theme for roughly the second half of the overall story.

 People care because Synthesis shouldn't even be an option, it goes against everything Mass Effect was about and if people does choose it they force the whole Galaxy to become one new DNA

A new framwork, not one new DNA.  Krogan are still Krogan, humans are still humans, Turians are still Turians, etc.  Don't believe me?  Watch the EC synthesis ending, you'll see that species were, in fact, visibly left in tact.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 juillet 2012 - 04:18 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

srsly guys its time to give it up, broken record much?

[Geneaux486]

DinoSteve wrote...

srsly guys its time to give it up, broken record much?

Yes but it's still fun to discuss.

[AlanC9]

Geneaux486 wrote...

And Synthetics vs Organics was not a Major Theme in ME,

Yes it was.  Replay ME2 and interact with Legion at all, or replay the Rannoch story arc in ME3.  It absolutely was a major theme for roughly the second half of the overall story.

Hell, replay Sovereign's Virmire convo. He sure thinks he's better than organic life.

[AresKeith]

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
yes it would have worked because the Reapers we did kill was because of there vulnerabilities when their on Planets.

And this proves not only that destroying the Citadel would destroy the Catalyst, but that destroying the Catalyst would somehow hinder beings who are "each a nation, independent" how exactly? 

And Synthetics vs Organics was not a Major Theme in ME,

 
Yes it was.  Replay ME2 and interact with Legion at all, or replay the Rannoch story arc in ME3.  It absolutely was a major theme for roughly the second half of the overall story.

 People care because Synthesis shouldn't even be an option, it goes against everything Mass Effect was about and if people does choose it they force the whole Galaxy to become one new DNA

A new framwork, not one new DNA.  Krogan are still Krogan, humans are still humans, Turians are still Turians, etc.  Don't believe me?  Watch the EC synthesis ending, you'll see that species were, in fact, visibly left in tact.

I meant that if they had used the Crucible as a Dark Energy like was meant to, then we could exploit that. Also the Catalyst claims he controls them and he's an AI get rid of it and samething  from ME1 happens.

I didn't say it wasn't a theme, I said it wasn't the main Theme of the game, when you meet Legion and do the Geth mission in ME3 you learn that the Geth never wanted to kill the Quarians or anyone that proves the Synthetic vs Organic isn't all that true.

And Synthesis still forces everyone in the Galaxy to change against their own will and is is violating the right of self-determination, their minds basically becomes part of the same collective

[incinerator950]

Geneaux486 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

srsly guys its time to give it up, broken record much?

Yes but it's still fun to discuss.

Unless you're trolling the herd, there is absolutely nothing relevant to fun discussing the same topics over and over again. 

[darthoptimus003]

AresKeith wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
yes it would have worked because the Reapers we did kill was because of there vulnerabilities when their on Planets.

And this proves not only that destroying the Citadel would destroy the Catalyst, but that destroying the Catalyst would somehow hinder beings who are "each a nation, independent" how exactly? 

And Synthetics vs Organics was not a Major Theme in ME,

 
Yes it was.  Replay ME2 and interact with Legion at all, or replay the Rannoch story arc in ME3.  It absolutely was a major theme for roughly the second half of the overall story.

 People care because Synthesis shouldn't even be an option, it goes against everything Mass Effect was about and if people does choose it they force the whole Galaxy to become one new DNA

A new framwork, not one new DNA.  Krogan are still Krogan, humans are still humans, Turians are still Turians, etc.  Don't believe me?  Watch the EC synthesis ending, you'll see that species were, in fact, visibly left in tact.

I meant that if they had used the Crucible as a Dark Energy like was meant to, then we could exploit that. Also the Catalyst claims he controls them and he's an AI get rid of it and samething  from ME1 happens.

I didn't say it wasn't a theme, I said it wasn't the main Theme of the game, when you meet Legion and do the Geth mission in ME3 you learn that the Geth never wanted to kill the Quarians or anyone that proves the Synthetic vs Organic isn't all that true.

And Synthesis still forces everyone in the Galaxy to change against their own will and is is violating the right of self-determination, their minds basically becomes part of the same collective

exactly this is why i hate these endings
they make us choose from 3 endings that go agianst EVERYTHING established in the game
destroy= mass genocide {geth, edi} and a breath seane that was half assed with no real clue as to what happens
control=what TIM was wanting and we said its wrong
synthisis=make EVERYONE the same agianst there will did they ask for that NO
and now we get a refusal ending that doesnt do anything but make us pick the other 3 crap endings and is basiclly a hugh FU from BW
and people say we cant have conventinal victory in refusal
if we work hard enough it SHOULD BE AN OPTION
and i dont see why people say no if you dont want it dont choose it let the ones ta want it get it everyones happy unless those that dont want it complains just because its there let us have our happy ending and reunion with LI

[darthoptimus003]

I meant that if they had used the Crucible as a Dark Energy like was meant to, then we could exploit that. Also the Catalyst claims he controls them and he's an AI get rid of it and samething from ME1 happens.

this is what ive been saying he specificlly states that he controls them
blow the crucible and wrek havoc on the reapers then with high enough TMS we can win convintially
so what was the purpose og gathering assets if we couldnt when like this

[darthoptimus003]

Geneaux486 wrote...

darthoptimus003 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
thats why the Crucible was meant to be Dark Energy weapon

It is.  It was stated repeatedly in the game that the Crucible does use dark energy.

thanks for proving the point
IT was supose to be a dark energy wepon but now in the last 5 min  it shoots space magic with no ties to the main plot and introduces a space brat
conventional victory is possible we have done it
blow the catalist and weaken the reapers cause there boss is dead yeah space brat said he controls them so there

You have no idea whether or not that would work, and odds are it wouldn't since nothing of the sort was mentioned in the game.  No ties to the main plot?  The Illusive Man was preaching control for the entire game.  Destroy was the ideal goal for the entire game.  The rift between synthetics and organics was a major theme as early as your first meeting with Legion in Mass Effect 2, and the basic concept of synthesis was foreshadowed when Legion sacrificed himself to grant his people enlightenment, so how exactly can concepts that have been relevant to the series for a sizeable portion of it have no ties to the main plot?  The Crucible can destroy the Reapers as it was expected to, so technically you're complaining about a change in function that doesn't exist.  The twist is we're given two other choices on how to end things as well.  If you don't like it, don't pick them.  You're not forced to synthesize, so why do you care that the option is available?

um play it again
he does say he controls them thats why the cycles started he controls them he said as much even that he turned on his creators with the reapers and if thats the case destroy the little **** and blow the reapers to hell and with high enough TMS convintianl victory would be possible and was shown thru the entire series that it CAN be done be it with losses but still possible

Modifié par darthoptimus003, 21 juillet 2012 - 06:25 .

[The_Crazy_Hand]

flanny wrote...

I agree with you but bioware don't care about their fans anymore, they only care about their 'art'.

bioware will never make an ending better than their 'art'. at this point all you can do is headcanon

this.

I hope it's worth a long term loss in sales for them.

[Geneaux486]

I meant that if they had used the Crucible as a Dark Energy like was meant to, then we could exploit that.

Destroy option.

I didn't say it wasn't a theme, I said it wasn't the main Theme of the game, when you meet Legion and do the Geth mission in ME3 you learn that the Geth never wanted to kill the Quarians or anyone that proves the Synthetic vs Organic isn't all that true.

For one thing, it is a major theme. For another, what we learn about the Geth specifically tells us nothing about the synthetic life of previous cycles.

And Synthesis still forces everyone in the Galaxy to change against their own will and is is violating the right of self-determination, their minds basically becomes part of the same collective

Their minds become nothing of the sort.

Unless you're trolling the herd, there is absolutely nothing relevant to fun discussing the same topics over and over again.

To you.

he does say he controls them thats why the cycles started he controls them he said as much even that he turned on his creators with the reapers

He says he controls them, but does not demonstrate the ability to directly influence their actions. Sovereign claims that the Reapers are independent, and Legion confirms it, meaning that the Catalyst's control is probably as simple as programming their mission into them.

and if thats the case destroy the little ****

Assuming he can be destroyed by simply targetting the Citadel, which is not evidenced in the game.

and blow the reapers to hell and with high enough TMS convintianl victory would be possible and was shown thru the entire series that it CAN be done be it with losses but still possible

The series showed us it is not possible. It takes multiple fleets and focused fire to bring down one Capital ship. Doing that while dozens of other Capital ships are attacking at the same time means the fight will be lost. Earth had their guard up, and was defeated by the Reapers. The Turian military the strongest military in the galaxy, was defeated. The Asari, who actually had more time to prepare, were still defeated. The fleet that Shepard puts together is defeated without the Crucible. This is what we can observe in the game, and it logically follows the strength Sovereign demonstrated in the first game.

[Nyaore]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

We're not getting any more endings. I can sympathize with wanting this but I think its time to let it go. If they were going to give us one it would have been in the EC. All the ending stuff is done and over, I think its time for us to move on.

Agreed. At this point, it's just not going to happen anymore. Best we can do now is resort to headcanon. Which is precisely what I'm doing, as it's the only way to get the ending I feel is appropriate for the series as I personally see it. I can wish that a near perfect EMS would allow the Refusal ending to enable you to win, as it would give you a big reason to go back and replay the last installments, but wishes won't amount to action on Bioware's side.

[AresKeith]

Geneaux486 wrote...

I meant that if they had used the Crucible as a Dark Energy like was meant to, then we could exploit that.

Destroy option.

I didn't say it wasn't a theme, I said it wasn't the main Theme of the game, when you meet Legion and do the Geth mission in ME3 you learn that the Geth never wanted to kill the Quarians or anyone that proves the Synthetic vs Organic isn't all that true.

For one thing, it is a major theme. For another, what we learn about the Geth specifically tells us nothing about the synthetic life of previous cycles.

And Synthesis still forces everyone in the Galaxy to change against their own will and is is violating the right of self-determination, their minds basically becomes part of the same collective

Their minds become nothing of the sort.

the Destroy option doesn't exploit that, its makes you commit genocide against EDI and the Geth because Bioware doesn't want people to just pick Destroy and be done with it

That proves that you can condemn all Synthetics because of previous cycles, and Javik even said that the Synthetics in his cycle were being controlled by the Reapers.

And Apparently you didn't read my whole comment, your still forcing everyone to change against their own will, everyone in your fleet wanted the Reapers dead not have their minds join with theirs

[Geneaux486]

AresKeith wrote...
the Destroy option doesn't exploit that, its makes you commit genocide against EDI and the Geth because Bioware doesn't want people to just pick Destroy and be done with it

Destroy uses the Crucible's energy to destroy synthetics.  It doesn't discriminate because the cycles that created and perfected the plans for the device were always at war with synthetics.  Bioware wanted us to have a choice in the ending, a real choice.  Multiple ways to end the Reaper threat, all with their own advantages and consequences.  If destroy did only target the Reapers, then there would be one correct choice and two incorrect choices, which defeats the purpose of having a choice at all.  Instead, Shepard has a genuine moral dilema.  He just needs to sack up and make his decision.

That proves that you can condemn all Synthetics because of previous cycles, and Javik even said that the Synthetics in his cycle were being controlled by the Reapers.

The Reapers use synthetics to achieve their ends, that much we knew.

And Apparently you didn't read my whole comment, your still forcing everyone to change against their own will, everyone in your fleet wanted the Reapers dead not have their minds join with theirs

I did read your whole comment, and in response I say that if you find synthesis so appauling, don't pick it.  The game doesn't force you to.  I don't choose it either, I go with control.

[AlanC9]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

Edit: On the whole "we need the crucible!" thing - see what iakus said earlier - assertion presented as fact, nothing more.

It's a bit more than that if the Codex entries are at all trustworthy. With a set of techs like that I couldn't lose a game of MoO2, even outnumbered 2-1 with no production capability. Unless the contrived rule about retreating fleets needing to return to their own nearest base nailed me, that is.

EMS falls flat mostly because there's no actual content showcasing its value. We never see the various assets in play - like the Rachni - they're just not there.

Well, some of them are there. Human, asari, turian, geth, and quarian warships, plus human, turian, asari, and krogan ground forces.  Of course, Bio could have done more ground force scenes since they already have drell, batarian, geth, and salarian models available. More space assets is a bit problematic since they'd need to make new models -- I suppose they could introduce them during the scene where the fleets check in at the Sol relay.

I don't know if more cutsenes would have helped, though. That fleet check-in scene was about as long as I wanted it to be. And I strongly suspect that even if these scenes had been in, the complaints about the assets not mattering would still be with us, since anyone who plays a reasonably completionist game gets enough assets to win any way he likes. I think the fundamental problem here is sidequests.

Personally what I would have preferred was an ending without a forced choice, but thematic consistency - basically making the Crucible a bomb. We get to the Citadel, we have the showdown with TIM, open the arms, the Crucible docks and then the EMS rating determines what the outcome of the explosion is, low EMS means we take out the Reapers but have very little chance of surviving outselves, leaving the galaxy for the next cycle. High EMS destroys the Reapers, but does not pull a random forced consequence like the death of all synthetics out of nowhere, and instead lays the foundation for organics and synthetics living in peace as they are, respecting one another. No poorly-conceived plot-twist, no space magic (or very little) and no breaking of themes.

So the whole series ends with Shep pushing a button on the Citadel? I guess. Seems a bit less interesting than the current endings, though.I like the debates about which ending is better and why, and I like having to make serious decisions in character. (Though no final boss fight is a plus for me.)

Easy for me to say, of course, since the original ending didn't bother me much, and I rather like the EC endings.

[darthoptimus003]

um sovy was destroyed buy the human fleet ONE fleet 7th i believe
30 ships if im also not mistaken
we have gathered every alien fleet we could like i said it will be with heavy losses but it can be done
and we woulnt have to scarifice our soul and commite genocide to do it
and if there starbrat is the colective concience of all the reapers which he stated he is then if all that needs to be done is destroy the catalist and blow the starbrat away
and if you think that victory thru refusal is not an option then dont pick it if we were to get it no one says you have to
me and alot of other people want it and if there is a slim chance that we can get it whats the big problem yall have your ending we will get ours and then almost everyone will be happy
all im saying is that if you get a high enough TMS then we should get our happy ending and our reunion with our LI which bye the way should have been in there to begin with
instead we got a FU from BW
but thats just me

[Geneaux486]

um sovy was destroyed buy the human fleet ONE fleet 7th i believe

Multiple fleets around the Citadel, not just the humans.

we have gathered every alien fleet we could like i said it will be with heavy losses but it can be done

Fleets from worlds that the Reapers are burning, from militaries that have already sustained extremely heavy losses. The fleet at the end of the game is made up of the galaxy's leftovers. A conventional victory didn't seem possible, and with the inclusion of the Refuse option we know for certain that it was not possible.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 juillet 2012 - 07:43 .

[Jadebaby]

yes, why would you vote 'no'?

It's more Mass Effect choicies.

Even if you're content with the endings, it's opening up the game more, you shouldn't be against that.

[Geneaux486]

Jade8aby88 wrote...
Even if you're content with the endings, it's opening up the game more, you shouldn't be against that.

They'd have to crank out more choices with positive and negative aspects to keep the whole thing balanced.  Seems like a waste of time considering the game is complete.  Time for the developers to move on.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 juillet 2012 - 07:51 .

[darthoptimus003]

Geneaux486 wrote...

um sovy was destroyed buy the human fleet ONE fleet 7th i believe

Multiple fleets around the Citadel, not just the humans.

we have gathered every alien fleet we could like i said it will be with heavy losses but it can be done

Fleets from worlds that the Reapers are burning, from militaries that have already sustained extremely heavy losses. The fleet at the end of the game is made up of the galaxy's leftovers. A conventional victory didn't seem possible, and with the inclusion of the Refuse option we know for certain that it was not possible.

read the codex with the aid of the krogan the turians have been able to repel the reapers and free up there warships Garrus mintions this
the salrians never got hit yet their fleet should be at full strength the geth still have a big ass fleet as do the qurians and the when sovy bought it the turians didnt help but keep the geth fleet ocupyed so yeah the humans destroyed sovy with the loss of six ships if you went in to save the destany accention dont now how many if you didnt but like i said heavy loss but can be done

[Geneaux486]

read the codex with the aid of the krogan the turians have been able to repel the reapers and free up there warships Garrus mintions this

The ground wars, against husks. Of course the Krogans help with that. The only reason the Reapers don't just kill everyone from the sky is because they need to harvest living specimens.

the geth still have a big ass fleet as do the qurians

They just got done fighting a brutal war, they're weakened like everyone else.

but like i said heavy loss but can be done

Against one individual Reaper ship, not hundreds. And like I said, we know it can't be done because if you refuse to use the Crucible everyone dies.

than sucking it up for the sake of those who wanted victory without compliance.

That would have defeated the entire idea of choice in the end, if they had one right choice and multiple wrong choices.  That's the exact opposite of what they were going for, so why would they change that for a subset of fans?  Not only that but it would involve nerfing the previously established strength of the Reapers and create a massive plothole.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 juillet 2012 - 07:57 .

[TurianFrigate]

Best case scenario: the Leviathan DLC will give you a chance to win against them conventionally you could decide which fleet's, armies and specialists to use in different missions. Sure it would be expensive to possibly get all the actors back and make a bunch of different cinematics but this is a DLC I would personally buy.