712 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Panda]

What if they make victory require 1,000,000 War assets?

[Dunabar]

flanny wrote...

I agree with you but bioware don't care about their fans anymore, they only care about their 'art'.

bioware will never make an ending better than their 'art'. at this point all you can do is headcanon

Pardon me while I laugh. If Bioware didn't care why would they release the Extended Cuts (Which FYI was free), all these multiplayer DLC's (which were also free), and continue making these DLC's? If thats not showing some love, than dag yo...what does a company got to do to show they care?

As for the matter of "Art"...I guess only Artistic minds understand Art and sadly thats just one of many things lacking in society.

Modifié par Dunabar, 24 juillet 2012 - 04:17 .

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Dunabar wrote...

Pardon me while I laugh. If Bioware didn't care why would they release the Extended Cuts (Which FYI was free), all these multiplayer DLC's (which were also free), and continue making these DLC's? If thats not showing some love, than dag yo...what does a company got to do to show they care?

As for the matter of "Art"...I guess only Artistic minds understand Art and sadly thats just one of many things lacking in society.

To pretend that they care while remaining rigid?

[ld1449]

Dunabar wrote...

flanny wrote...

I agree with you but bioware don't care about their fans anymore, they only care about their 'art'.

bioware will never make an ending better than their 'art'. at this point all you can do is headcanon

Pardon me while I laugh. If Bioware didn't care why would they release the Extended Cuts (Which FYI was free), all these multiplayer DLC's (which were also free), and continue making these DLC's? If thats not showing some love, than dag yo...what does a company got to do to show they care?

As for the matter of "Art"...I guess only Artistic minds understand Art and sadly thats just one of many things lacking in society.

We didn't ask for the free MP stuff. We asked for something specific. Ending, changes. Not Clarification, and not Clousre.

If I go to a hospital to get my arm bandaged up from a cut or something, and you wrap up my leg for a twisted ankle or rub my neck with aloe vera or something to remove the crick in my neck from earlier, gee thanks and all but that doesn't change the fact that the arm is still bleeding.

Furthermore Mr artistic mind, I would love to hear your oh so invaluable insight into this artistic endings that so few of the "lacking" members of society can understand.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

A+ for effort.

[Dunabar]

ld1449 wrote...

We didn't ask for the free MP stuff. We asked for something specific. Ending, changes. Not Clarification, and not Clousre.

If I go to a hospital to get my arm bandaged up from a cut or something, and you wrap up my leg for a twisted ankle or rub my neck with aloe vera or something to remove the crick in my neck from earlier, gee thanks and all but that doesn't change the fact that the arm is still bleeding.

Furthermore Mr artistic mind, I would love to hear your oh so invaluable insight into this artistic endings that so few of the "lacking" members of society can understand.

Easy enough.

What we have in the case of Mass effects story is simply that, a story. We the players own the CD that contains that story, does it make the story ours? Well our actions in the game may determin what the story comes out being in one sense, but in the end we're reaching a particuler climatic ending to the story the company has hired people to make. Thus the story belongs to the company and not the player community, so if the company wishes for the story to end in particuler fasion or several different fasions then that is their choice, and as much as we may wish for our "opinions" to be the driving force of the story to get 'our way of things', it is simply insulting to the Writers to say "Your ending sucks and it needs to be remade because of- (insert your opinion here)."

So i ask - Who knows how the story is truely meant to end? The players? The company? Well logic dictates that "The who made the story, is the who knows how it is meant to end." Bioware didn't need to put out the extended cuts, people simply whined enough to get it. All well and good, I praise Bioware for doing the extended cuts BUT not changing how the story was suppose to end in their minds.

Now if Bioware turned around and made a whole brand new ending - 1 ending just to simply shut up every single person who is crying over how the game ended, then Bioware would lose out on a lot of respect of players who didn't mind the original endings or the endings that followed with the EC DLC. I myself have more respect for Bioware if they DIDN'T change how the story ended, than I would if they changed how it ended just to pascify the unknown minority or majority. I would much rather Bioware keep their artistic integrity and focus on either new content or new projects in the works, over trying to sit down to make 1,000,000 different endings just to make everyone happy. It won't happen, sad truth and hard pill to swallow but it wont happen.

Now I am sure anyone who has read this far is thinking "Well my opinion says (insert opinion here)" which is all well and good. My opinion is not worth more than anyone elses, but in my opinion Bioware has done a good job. I would rather them focus on putting out new content or Multiplayer stuff over trying to make everyone happy with the story ending. We the players do not own the story, we own the game CD's that we purchased, we own the rights to play the content on these CD's, but we do NOT own the right to tell the company that they need to change the story just to suit our minds. If they choose to change the ending then that should be on -THEIR- terms, not -OURS-, and the problem is that sad truth of being unable to make everyone happy.

Sadly Bioware is in a spot of "Damned if we do, damned if we don't" where people in the community are livid because the story didn't end their way. Which brings me to another question and I will use a scene from the game as a bit of an example.

Quarians vs. Geth - Now in my story I choose to make peace between both groups, I prefer the Quarians but because I know how I would respond to such a situtation I made peace.

Now lets say just say that I owned all rights to this part of the story. Does anyone have the right to tell me that story needs to change and that I should let "Group A" or "Group B" destroy the other? Well they would think they have the right to tell me too, which they would have the 'vocal right' but not the 'Legal right'.

Now I am sure folks are tired of reading through all of this and are either nodding their heads in agreement or getting ready to go all "HULK SMASH INTERNET OPINION!!!!!" or whatever metaphoric ideal you have to describe getting angry. So I will try to wrap this up here.

The company owns all rights to the story, thus how the story ends is up to them. We can either like it and move on with our lives to see if anything else will come, or sit around like a bunch of hungry wolves looking for something to sink our teeth into, or get up and look for something else to sink our teeth into and not be so dependent on Bioware throwing us a bone.

I myself am of the Wolves who are satisfied with what has been done and have moved on with life. I feel Bioware has more in the works and thus I roam to see what comes later. Far as the endings go, each one has its own meaning but all share the one common trait that extends from the past game play that has happend. The way I look to it all is this-

"A character who has given their life so others may live" or if you wish to be of the less -MEMEMEMEME- belief "A group of people who have given their lives so others may live." War is a cruel, unforgiving, and merciless Master. The God of War demands blood and sacrifice to sate its hunger, if Shepards death sates the God of war, and allows others in the Galaxy to live free of the chaos brought in the Wars wake, then that is the price that must be paid to ensure such to happen.

Does Shepards death mean the end of Mass effect? No. Only Bioware's word and efforts determin the future of Mass effect. If we continue to growl at them like a pack of enraged wolves because we disagree with the ending, then its best we just leave to seek other places to sate our hunger, because in the end Bioware doesn't need to feed  any of us.

[Dendio1]

The story says that the last stand is earth. The universe's allied forces are unified and at their peak strength. They fight to hold the reapers at bay so the crucible plan can be carried out. Conventional Victory was never an option

Modifié par Dendio1, 24 juillet 2012 - 07:57 .

[Bolt-Action]

That's a very eloquent and well written opinion.
But you're failing to see the bigger picture, which is, if the OC ending was so great, why change it? I already know you're going to instantly respond with "whiners, etc etc." but the fact is the OC ending was...not good, to anybody not even BW themselves, hence the EC ending.
If you're truly thrilled with the OC ending, by all means, delete the EC ending from your system and take the advice you, yourself, have provided. Now, if your response is going to be anything along the line of "BW didn't want to change the OC ending..." then you're definitely going to want to delete the EC ending from your system. Why? Because, by your own admission, you eluded to the fact that, it's because of fans like these that, the EC ending was released, and since this is a waste of their time (according to you) you should scrap the EC ending.
Now if you feel the EC ending was the "cat's meow" again, take your advice that you provided.
You can quote legality all day long but the fact is this; BW has fans and guess what? BW wants fans (I think) companies, irregardless of what they produce or provide, want feedback from the customers.
BW already compromised their "artistic integrity" when they altered the ending. (on a side note, a video game is not art, art is not made for the masses, art is made by the artist for the artist and everyone else be damned, which is why art is so personal and subjective)
If a person does not like the ending, they have every right, for the next 20yrs if they choose, to ask for a different ending. They're not hurting anyone and it's their time, so it's completely up to them how they use it,not you, not me, not BW. This is a public forum so they may post away as they see fit as long as it conforms to the forums rules, which they are. Your or my opinion is no more right or wrong than anyone else's, nor do they have anymore or less merit, truth or value. If they want to try, it's their right, while BW has the rights to ME, the public has the right to ask to have something changed that they do not agree with, as long as it does not violate any laws, which they are not. Do I think it'll change anything? No. But that's irrelevant, the attempt is sometimes, more important than a success. There are several well written posts about the 3 choices and how they betray Shep and all he stands for as well as the the entire MEverse. And I agree with them. Your understanding of the 3 choices is but one way, there are infinitely more, you're not taking into consideration. Heck if you want to hold hands with glow boy and tell him he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, go for it, that's your right and purgative, as this, is theirs. If you'd like to preach about how fantastic BW is, I'm sure they'd love to hear it. I haven't heard anyone demand anything from BW, they are asking, which is acceptable. What would BW be without their fans? Just another game dev without a hit.

Modifié par Bolt-Action, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:21 .

[Bolt-Action]

Furthermore, BW released the MP Ex packs for free, because they were trying to set up a system that they could make money from, nothing else. You can tell yourself whatever you like, but that's the truth, it wasn't a favor or freeby.
Also, everyone appreciated the EC ending for free, but since it didn't resolve all of the issues that still exist, they're willing to give BW another shot at an ending. You didn't even consider the fact that, the fans would be willing to pay, out of their own pockets I might add, for another ending, so it's not about the money to them as much as it is, what they feel is appropriate. Mighty nice of the fans to keep an open mind and give BW yet another opportunity, instead of condemning them or writing them off. And be willing to pay for it, to boot. From what I can tell, the majority of fans (on this forum) dislike the ending. It also seems that the fans (on this forum) that like the current or orig ending are the minority. At least from what I've seen, as far as the numbers go (there's a thread available if you'd like to peruse it.) 

I can appreciate your opinion and take on the situation, but it's purely one-sided from your point of view and is not indicative of others. They are fans, just like you.

Modifié par Bolt-Action, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:10 .

[ddraigcoch123]

@ Bolt-Action well said and a and you caught a comment I was going to make about the MP

@ Dunabar happy for you, truly, happy you got the game you wanted and the ending your happy with... would you like to extend the courtesy to me or are you content for your $/£ to be of more value than mine... And you are right the ending belongs to BW but why won't people with your opinion see that I am asking for BW's own ending... that Shep can survive is written into one of the endings... however meanly and 'ray of hope-like' its their freakin ending...

So again to anyone who can answer a simple question - I bought a game with multiple endings, one of those endings allows Shepard to live - I choose that ending and instead of getting a small still of Shep helping to rebuild Thessia with choosen LI (along the lines of Zaeed in a deckchair!!!) or being visited in hospital by my crew I get a burned torso on the rubble who may or may not be taking a last painful breath before dying alone and in pain...

OUT F***ING STANDING end to a galaxy hero...

Reason EC was free was that we would have been able to really go after them for making us pay for wronlgy advertised products...

Reason MP is being handed off free as has been said by Bolt-Action its coz they make money from it... check out where a lump of EA's profits come from... thats fine by me but don't be so naive as to think BW love us so much that they do this completely for 'Art'

If ME was meant to end on a harder edge well it needed to do some more setting up... Apocalypse Now it was never meant to be...

And as for your comments about us dumb arse grunts who dont understand art... well all i can say is that i do love the smell of being patronised in the morning and if your knowledge/appreciation of Art has made you the compassionate, understanding and fair person that you are then i dont want to be drinking your coolaid...

Modifié par ddraigcoch123, 24 juillet 2012 - 11:53 .

[taggen86]

No it doesnt make any sense. You would need to remake the whole trilogy, especially the end battle in me1. conventional victory is not possible without the crucible given the lore

Modifié par taggen86, 24 juillet 2012 - 12:05 .

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

I thought it was about victory through Refusal, myself. Meaning everything about ME3's the same except that Refuse somehow works.

And, again, the Crucible doesn't qualify as a MacGuffin. Its function is vital to the plot.

As for whether an alternate version of ME3 could have involved conventional victory; sure, it could have. Retconning the Battle of the Citadel would have been easy enough, and they could have invented all kinds of new tech stuff to make up the difference

The crucible is almost the exact definition of a MacGuffin. 

From Wikipedia:

It is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist (and sometimes the antagonist) is willing to do and sacrifice almost anything to pursue, often with little or no narrative explanation as to why it is considered so desirable. A MacGuffin, therefore, functions merely as "a plot element that catches the viewers' attention or drives the plot of a work of fiction" 

In fact, the specific nature of the MacGuffin may be ambiguous,
undefined, generic, left open to interpretation or otherwise completely
unimportant to the plot. Common examples are money, victory, glory,
survival, a source of power, a potential threat, a mysterious but highly
desired item or object, or simply something that is entirely
unexplained.

--The crucible is only vital to this plot because the writers said conventional warfare is impossible, so people had to hope a MacGuffin would come along.  MacGuffins are made vital to the plot because people want to find or get whatever one is in order to help them.  But no one knows what the crucible is or does and everyone wants it.  It's used instead of saying the Alliance was building their fleets up in order to fight the reapers and were putting Javelin missiles and stealth tech on every ship they could, and the geth were doing xyz and the Turians were doing this, that, and the other thing, and so on.  And then they needed Shepard to help them.  The crucible is used as some rallying point for the whole galaxy, but it's artificial-logically, who would do this-pour all the resources and best minds of the galaxy into something completely unknown that Liara and other smart people think is a weapon but that isn't a weapon?  Even if it had been defined as a weapon with known technology it would still be a MacGuffin; it would just make a bit more sense.

And that was the point that all of us have been making that if the writers had decided to do things differently, a conventional fight could have been initiated, but not doing just conventional things.  It's the fact that everyone gets hung up on the idea it's impossible and it only is because they decided this one time to make that mean it is impossible, really.  How does anyone protect the Crucible if not using conventional means? 

[3DandBeyond]

taggen86 wrote...

No it doesnt make any sense. You would need to remake the whole trilogy, especially the end battle in me1. conventional victory is not possible without the crucible given the lore

The lore has nothing to do with it and no, you wouldn't have to rewrite the whole trilogy.  The reapers are not invincible. 

So, it makes infinitely more sense to have a super duper space magic citadel/crucible/"kid" choice machine that changes "DNA", or allows Shepard's intelligence to be uploaded into not a reaper but what the Citadel, just like the kid, but using Thanix cannons, Javelin Missiles, and so on are completely out of line with ME's lore?  Apparently, we've been playing different games.

Reapers are potentially vulnerable to a lot of things.  None of this is explored because it would make the game longer, not because it would not fit the lore.  What we have doesn't fit the lore at all. 

[Master Alenko]

Never gonna happen. Bioware already spent enough of their time creating an Extended Cut. Which was released for free when they could have easily charged for it. I think that should be appreciated.

Besides, I'm not a fan of the refusal ending because I know everyone and my LI will die! LOL

[3DandBeyond]

And it is quite true the point being made in this and many other places that yes, some of us do feel quite abandoned by this game. The non-win endings with no chance for one uplifting "choice" or non-choice has really killed the lore of this game/story. It's great for those that got all that they wanted in the EC, but I think many are not being quite honest with themselves here.

When you first started ME1, I seriously doubt you hoped it would end like this. When you first started even ME3, I doubt you thought it would. I think many if not most of us did envision some real fighting with a really tough battle at the end. And the thought was that it would most likely mean Shepard would sadly sacrifice all, but that just as in other games there might also be a path to which Shepard would survive and we'd be a part of it all. We'd see what happened to Shepard.

Well, none of the choices lead to victory-or were ME1, 2, and 3 all about solving your enemy's goal?

And certainly for anyone that wanted Shepard to unambiguously have a chance at happiness there was no clear unequivocal scene showing that.

The truth is people that wanted one happy possible ending with that reunion can only now hope they might use refuse and show some type of real fight that could lead to victory and life for Shepard. So what-what is so wrong with asking for that? How does that hurt anyone else? It doesn't ruin your awesome cool-looking game that is all you ever hoped for.

People that want one happier ending are talking about good things. People call it cheesy in order to belittle others. Again, why? I thought most people cared about love and life and that is all some of us are asking for, have been asking for in this game. Something happy. I don't know why this has all turned into such a cynical thing. I'm a hater because I hate that the ending is some demoralizing depressing commentary on how idiotic people are and I'd prefer people take responsibility and try to do the impossible and maybe the hero finds a way to live and love again. If that makes me a hater then I need a new dictionary.

[3DandBeyond]

Master Alenko wrote...

Never gonna happen. Bioware already spent enough of their time creating an Extended Cut. Which was released for free when they could have easily charged for it. I think that should be appreciated.

Besides, I'm not a fan of the refusal ending because I know everyone and my LI will die! LOL

The idea is that Bioware could release paid for DLC that would add to the refusal ending and give you a path to victory through refusal and by using some more known methods to try and fight the reapers.  Not truly a conventional war, but using conventional known weapons to fight them.  They could make it still possible you'd lose and die, but they could also make it possible that you could win and live or win and die or lose and live and watch the reapers take over.

The fact that they intend to release paid for DLC that could add to your EMS makes no sense right now, but if additional EMS gave you a chance to fight the reapers, then it would.

And no, I don't give the credit for releasing the EC for free at all.  It didn't fix what was wrong with the original endings, it merely added slides and words and more discussion with the kid and some explanation for stuff we mostly already knew and didn't like.  We knew that's what it would be.  If you play through ME1-3, it still makes no sense because it was not changed.

And they released it for free because it was a bandaid to cover all of the less than accurate garbage they said ME3 would be at the end-the vast variety of endings that were based on all your choices throughout 3 games.  There'd be no ABC endings and so on.  If they had charged for this the response would have been worse than the initial debacle.  They released it for free because they had to.

I always look to play games that end with genocide, molestation, and godhood with some suicide on the side just for fun.  It's depressing that some think this is just awesome.

[Yakko77]

It's not going to happen but I wish it would. I loved Reject Ending at first, challenging and questioning the Star Brat but then you get the middle finger from BW and everyone dies for it. That's honestly how I took it. I think it was very spiteful and unprofessional. It came across as, "Don't like our brilliant ending you simpleton fans? Fine, here's a new one. You all die. ****** off and go away now."

[ld1449]

Master Alenko wrote...

Never gonna happen. Bioware already spent enough of their time creating an Extended Cut. Which was released for free when they could have easily charged for it. I think that should be appreciated.

Besides, I'm not a fan of the refusal ending because I know everyone and my LI will die! LOL

You do not PAY someone to pick up a mess They made. People say "Well we appreciate its free" like they had any other choice. Think back to four months ago. If they would have said "Clarity and Closure" for ten bucks then people REALLY would have left shaking their heads in disgust. Hell think of right now if the fans would have paid for the bandaid that was the extended cut. Free the BSN is split 50 50. At a cost, this thing would have kept most of the fans pissed off anyway and wasted 3 months of everyone's time.

[Father_Jerusalem]

This is still going on?

Seriously?

Uh. Okay.

[AresKeith]

yes it is problem?

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
The crucible is almost the exact definition of a MacGuffin.  

From Wikipedia:

It is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist (and sometimes the antagonist) is willing to do and sacrifice almost anything to pursue, often with little or no narrative explanation as to why it is considered so desirable. A MacGuffin, therefore, functions merely as "a plot element that catches the viewers' attention or drives the plot of a work of fiction" 

In fact, the specific nature of the MacGuffin may be ambiguous, undefined, generic, left open to interpretation or otherwise completely
unimportant to the plot. Common examples are money, victory, glory,
survival, a source of power, a potential threat, a mysterious but highly
desired item or object, or simply something that is entirely
unexplained.

I've italicized the parts that are inapplicable to the Crucible. Ambiguous, etc. refers to the audience at the end, not the characters in the middle.

Unless you've interpreted the passage to mean that the key feature of a MacGuffin is that its function is unknown or unimportant to the characters. Of course, this is true in a limited sense of the Crucible, since the details of its function are unclear. But its general function is presumed to be to defeat the Reapers. And in fact, that is exactly true.

I guess you could use the MacGuffin concept this way. But it's awfully broad. What wouldn't be a MacGuffin?

  The crucible is used as some rallying point for the whole galaxy, but it's artificial-logically, who would do this-pour all the resources and best minds of the galaxy into something completely unknown that Liara and other smart people think is a weapon but that isn't a weapon? 

Since there's no other viable plan for defeating the Reapers -- yes, they would.

And that was the point that all of us have been making that if the writers had decided to do things differently, a conventional fight could have been initiated, but not doing just conventional things.  It's the fact that everyone gets hung up on the idea it's impossible and it only is because they decided this one time to make that mean it is impossible, really.  How does anyone protect the Crucible if not using conventional means? 

So it's impossible in the universe that the characters actually live in. It's hardly getting "hung up on the idea"  something's impossible when it actually is impossible.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 juillet 2012 - 11:19 .

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
The idea is that Bioware could release paid for DLC that would add to the refusal ending and give you a path to victory through refusal and by using some more known methods to try and fight the reapers.  Not truly a conventional war, but using conventional known weapons to fight them.  They could make it still possible you'd lose and die, but they could also make it possible that you could win and live or win and die or lose and live and watch the reapers take over.

If that's all you're saying... then sure. Of course they could.

Horrible idea, but Bio could do it.

Methinks you need a "should" up there.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 juillet 2012 - 11:18 .

[The_Crazy_Hand]

3DandBeyond wrote...
The lore has nothing to do with it and no, you wouldn't have to rewrite the whole trilogy.  The reapers are not invincible. 

So, it makes infinitely more sense to have a super duper space magic citadel/crucible/"kid" choice machine that changes "DNA", or allows Shepard's intelligence to be uploaded into not a reaper but what the Citadel, just like the kid, but using Thanix cannons, Javelin Missiles, and so on are completely out of line with ME's lore?  Apparently, we've been playing different games.

Reapers are potentially vulnerable to a lot of things. None of this is explored because it would make the game longer, not because it would not fit the lore. What we have doesn't fit the lore at all. 

Exactly, they had EA's deadline to deal with.  They never should have accepted EA's investment.

[ld1449]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
The lore has nothing to do with it and no, you wouldn't have to rewrite the whole trilogy.  The reapers are not invincible. 

So, it makes infinitely more sense to have a super duper space magic citadel/crucible/"kid" choice machine that changes "DNA", or allows Shepard's intelligence to be uploaded into not a reaper but what the Citadel, just like the kid, but using Thanix cannons, Javelin Missiles, and so on are completely out of line with ME's lore?  Apparently, we've been playing different games.

Reapers are potentially vulnerable to a lot of things. None of this is explored because it would make the game longer, not because it would not fit the lore. What we have doesn't fit the lore at all. 

Exactly, they had EA's deadline to deal with.  They never should have accepted EA's investment.

Actually from what I understand they were doing a merger with a different company who's name I can't recall and then EA went and bought the merging company, buying Bioware along with it. It was actually an incredulously raised eyebrow moment because the person that owned the company EA bought actually used to work for EA and left them, which definitely made people throw a question or two around.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

ld1449 wrote...

Actually from what I understand they were doing a merger with a different company who's name I can't recall and then EA went and bought the merging company, buying Bioware along with it. It was actually an incredulously raised eyebrow moment because the person that owned the company EA bought actually used to work for EA and left them, which definitely made people throw a question or two around.

EA is known for pulling crap like that, so no surprise.