712 réponses à ce sujet

[incinerator950]

Ukomba wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

kopfentot wrote...

I think they could have added a scene with a cruel massacre, and dramatic death of your companions. But in no way you should be able to defeat the reapers conventionally, the protheans who apparently were more advanced than the current cycle couldn't so there's no reason races in this cycle should be able.

But the protheans also didn't have a whole united galaxy behind them

The Protheans did have a united galaxy behind them but those races were tried as slaves.

Or moved on up from slaves to just members of the Empire.  Regardless of their status, the important problem is the Prothean Empire was cut off because of the Citadel.  I'm assuming the heart of the Empire also had a large defense force in position, likely wiped out when the Reapers poured throught the Darkspace Relay.  Even better, the actual communications and Relay blackouts that would segment force responses.  

Oh, and the constant battles of attritian leading to the high number of indoctrinated beings.

Not to mention most of their leaders would have been taken immediately. 
If your emperor is indoctrinated and starts giving bad orders, it could be massively
damaging before anyone steps in to stop it.  Also the Citadel would have
been full of information.  The reapers would have known where everything
was, how strong they were, and what their weaknesses were.  The Prothians
might have been able to win, in a stand up fight, but they didn't get the same
chance Shepards cycle did.  Even so, they
lasted centuries.

 

The Reapers are vulnerable for the same reason the Protians
were vulnerable.  They have a single
tactic and really aren’t good at adapting. 
A single loss is also devastating to them since their ability to replace
lost ships is minimal, they have to risk more ships in a massive harvesting
effort to even attempt to create a single new ship.  Once the reapers start loosing, their done,
they can’t replenish their numbers, they can’t change their tactics, and their
technology doesn’t advance.  It’s very
clear that the longer a war drags out, the worse it goes for them.  This reality shows in their tactics.  They have to over whelm immediately.

If they actualy played the 4th ending out, the aliance could have eventualy devleoped stronger weapons, pulled hit and run surpise attacks,and built up foces to the point where they could win.  The prothians devleoped a way to detect indoctrinated people, and they had just inveted mass relay technology.  Compact mass realay technology.  Imagine a mini-relay like that mounted in a warhead.

If you expanded the Destroy and Control endings, you would have saw that every other major world was being occupied and attacked by the Reapers (mainly Asari, Turian, and Krogan).  The fleet at the end of Destruction is whats left after the Reapers paused during the firing of the Crucible.  Its safe to say there are more Reapers the what was left of Sword and Shield.

Also, even if you pull out of Sol or somehow managed to survive, where are your shipyards?  Most of them are being destroyed, you might not get the chance to refit and rebuild.  Reaper losses are staggering compared to other Cycles, but they have the numbers and patience to take them, we don't.  We don't have the production to match the Reaper offensive.  The 4th ending can't be expanded on to some Guerilla War because the Asari have been doing it throughout the game, and failed.  Building stronger weapons isn't going to work, the Reapers are stronger in everyway, they not only have had millions of years of technological advancement, they specifically orchestrated all the tech produced in this Cycle be a byproduct of theirs.  Its controllable, and easy to adapt to.  

Which is why Thanix Cannons are not the super miracle crutch that will save the fleet.  A hard revise of the entire trilogy is needed to make a conventional victory possible as an outcome, and not many people will be happy with having more of their choices in ME1 and ME2 scrapped to build a plot centered around killing the old Council to put a new Council irregardless of your ethical views, to prepare for the Reapers with flimsy and circumstantial evidence.  Or handing the Collector Base to Cerberus and putting Cerberus in the jurisdiction of the combined Council authority to produce weapons and technology instead of Reaper control.

Several changes and upgrades are needed, and with ME3 the way it is, it is not possible for a conventional victory unless half the Reapers decide to say **** you to the consensus and attack themselves.  

[Ukomba]

ThaDPG wrote...

Ukomba wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

kopfentot wrote...

I think they could have added a scene with a cruel massacre, and dramatic death of your companions. But in no way you should be able to defeat the reapers conventionally, the protheans who apparently were more advanced than the current cycle couldn't so there's no reason races in this cycle should be able.

But the protheans also didn't have a whole united galaxy behind them

The Protheans did have a united galaxy behind them but those races were tried as slaves.

Or moved on up from slaves to just members of the Empire.  Regardless of their status, the important problem is the Prothean Empire was cut off because of the Citadel.  I'm assuming the heart of the Empire also had a large defense force in position, likely wiped out when the Reapers poured throught the Darkspace Relay.  Even better, the actual communications and Relay blackouts that would segment force responses.  

Oh, and the constant battles of attritian leading to the high number of indoctrinated beings.

Not to mention most of their leaders would have been taken immediately. 
If your emperor is indoctrinated and starts giving bad orders, it could be massively
damaging before anyone steps in to stop it.  Also the Citadel would have
been full of information.  The reapers would have known where everything
was, how strong they were, and what their weaknesses were.  The Prothians
might have been able to win, in a stand up fight, but they didn't get the same
chance Shepards cycle did.  Even so, they
lasted centuries.

 

The Reapers are vulnerable for the same reason the Protians
were vulnerable.  They have a single
tactic and really aren’t good at adapting. 
A single loss is also devastating to them since their ability to replace
lost ships is minimal, they have to risk more ships in a massive harvesting
effort to even attempt to create a single new ship.  Once the reapers start loosing, their done,
they can’t replenish their numbers, they can’t change their tactics, and their
technology doesn’t advance.  It’s very
clear that the longer a war drags out, the worse it goes for them.  This reality shows in their tactics.  They have to over whelm immediately.

If they actualy played the 4th ending out, the aliance could have eventualy devleoped stronger weapons, pulled hit and run surpise attacks,and built up foces to the point where they could win.  The prothians devleoped a way to detect indoctrinated people, and they had just inveted mass relay technology.  Compact mass realay technology.  Imagine a mini-relay like that mounted in a warhead.

Sorry Ukomba, didn't see your response until I had already posted mine, but they say basically the same thing lol

Only beat you by a few seconds .  You didn't have to deleat your comment, I was glad to read some one else was thinking the same thing.

[ThaDPG]

What about this Leviathan of Dis DLC I keep hearing about? Something about a rogue Reaper? Does that mean we could possibly have a Reaper on our side? I would think the Refuse ending could be greatly expanded if that turns out to be the case

[Archonsg]

I am going to quote part of a speech by a comedian from a movie that for most was made before your parents were born :

"We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in
Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want
Our knowledge has made us cynical
Our cleverness hard and unkind
We think too much, and feel too little
More than machinery, we need humanity
More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness
Without these qualities life will be violent
And all will be lost"

Synthesis is abhorrent, in that it takes away individuality and diversity.
Refusal, is in essence, a declaration that one will not quietly accept suicide and solutions that were born from fear, murder, betrayal and intolerance, putting instead one's faith in humanity, unity and friends.
Too bad the writers decided that such ideals deserves nothing but failure and death.

Modifié par Archonsg, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:06 .

[ThaDPG]

Ukomba wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

Ukomba wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

kopfentot wrote...

I think they could have added a scene with a cruel massacre, and dramatic death of your companions. But in no way you should be able to defeat the reapers conventionally, the protheans who apparently were more advanced than the current cycle couldn't so there's no reason races in this cycle should be able.

But the protheans also didn't have a whole united galaxy behind them

The Protheans did have a united galaxy behind them but those races were tried as slaves.

Or moved on up from slaves to just members of the Empire.  Regardless of their status, the important problem is the Prothean Empire was cut off because of the Citadel.  I'm assuming the heart of the Empire also had a large defense force in position, likely wiped out when the Reapers poured throught the Darkspace Relay.  Even better, the actual communications and Relay blackouts that would segment force responses.  

Oh, and the constant battles of attritian leading to the high number of indoctrinated beings.

Not to mention most of their leaders would have been taken immediately. 
If your emperor is indoctrinated and starts giving bad orders, it could be massively
damaging before anyone steps in to stop it.  Also the Citadel would have
been full of information.  The reapers would have known where everything
was, how strong they were, and what their weaknesses were.  The Prothians
might have been able to win, in a stand up fight, but they didn't get the same
chance Shepards cycle did.  Even so, they
lasted centuries.

 

The Reapers are vulnerable for the same reason the Protians
were vulnerable.  They have a single
tactic and really aren’t good at adapting. 
A single loss is also devastating to them since their ability to replace
lost ships is minimal, they have to risk more ships in a massive harvesting
effort to even attempt to create a single new ship.  Once the reapers start loosing, their done,
they can’t replenish their numbers, they can’t change their tactics, and their
technology doesn’t advance.  It’s very
clear that the longer a war drags out, the worse it goes for them.  This reality shows in their tactics.  They have to over whelm immediately.

If they actualy played the 4th ending out, the aliance could have eventualy devleoped stronger weapons, pulled hit and run surpise attacks,and built up foces to the point where they could win.  The prothians devleoped a way to detect indoctrinated people, and they had just inveted mass relay technology.  Compact mass realay technology.  Imagine a mini-relay like that mounted in a warhead.

Sorry Ukomba, didn't see your response until I had already posted mine, but they say basically the same thing lol

Only beat you by a few seconds .  You didn't have to deleat your comment, I was glad to read some one else was thinking the same thing.

Since ME is a work of fiction, I don't see why this couldn't be added in.  Not saying I think they will, but I can always dream lol

[ThaDPG]

Archonsg wrote...

I am going to quote part of a speech by a comedian from a movie that for most was made before your parents were born :

"We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in
Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want
Our knowledge has made us cynical
Our cleverness hard and unkind
We think too much, and feel too little
More than machinery, we need humanity
More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness
Without these qualities life will be violent
And all will be lost"

Synthesis is abhorrent, in that it takes away individuality and diversity.
Refusal, is in essence, a declaration that one will not quietly accept suicide and solutions that were born from fear, murder, betrayal and intolerance, putting instead one's faith in humanity, unity and friends.
Too bad the writers decided that such ideals deserves nothing but failure and death.

I would be a refuser and not a destroyer if refusal had some kind of pay off with a high enough EMS, instead of automatically condemning everyone and everything in the whole galaxy to a horrible death

[Ukomba]

incinerator950 wrote...

Ukomba wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

kopfentot wrote...

I think they could have added a scene with a cruel massacre, and dramatic death of your companions. But in no way you should be able to defeat the reapers conventionally, the protheans who apparently were more advanced than the current cycle couldn't so there's no reason races in this cycle should be able.

But the protheans also didn't have a whole united galaxy behind them

The Protheans did have a united galaxy behind them but those races were tried as slaves.

Or moved on up from slaves to just members of the Empire.  Regardless of their status, the important problem is the Prothean Empire was cut off because of the Citadel.  I'm assuming the heart of the Empire also had a large defense force in position, likely wiped out when the Reapers poured throught the Darkspace Relay.  Even better, the actual communications and Relay blackouts that would segment force responses.  

Oh, and the constant battles of attritian leading to the high number of indoctrinated beings.

Not to mention most of their leaders would have been taken immediately. 
If your emperor is indoctrinated and starts giving bad orders, it could be massively
damaging before anyone steps in to stop it.  Also the Citadel would have
been full of information.  The reapers would have known where everything
was, how strong they were, and what their weaknesses were.  The Prothians
might have been able to win, in a stand up fight, but they didn't get the same
chance Shepards cycle did.  Even so, they
lasted centuries.

 

The Reapers are vulnerable for the same reason the Protians
were vulnerable.  They have a single
tactic and really aren’t good at adapting. 
A single loss is also devastating to them since their ability to replace
lost ships is minimal, they have to risk more ships in a massive harvesting
effort to even attempt to create a single new ship.  Once the reapers start loosing, their done,
they can’t replenish their numbers, they can’t change their tactics, and their
technology doesn’t advance.  It’s very
clear that the longer a war drags out, the worse it goes for them.  This reality shows in their tactics.  They have to over whelm immediately.

If they actualy played the 4th ending out, the aliance could have eventualy devleoped stronger weapons, pulled hit and run surpise attacks,and built up foces to the point where they could win.  The prothians devleoped a way to detect indoctrinated people, and they had just inveted mass relay technology.  Compact mass realay technology.  Imagine a mini-relay like that mounted in a warhead.

If you expanded the Destroy and Control endings, you would have saw that every other major world was being occupied and attacked by the Reapers (mainly Asari, Turian, and Krogan).  The fleet at the end of Destruction is whats left after the Reapers paused during the firing of the Crucible.  Its safe to say there are more Reapers the what was left of Sword and Shield.

Also, even if you pull out of Sol or somehow managed to survive, where are your shipyards?  Most of them are being destroyed, you might not get the chance to refit and rebuild.  Reaper losses are staggering compared to other Cycles, but they have the numbers and patience to take them, we don't.  We don't have the production to match the Reaper offensive.  The 4th ending can't be expanded on to some Guerilla War because the Asari have been doing it throughout the game, and failed.  Building stronger weapons isn't going to work, the Reapers are stronger in everyway, they not only have had millions of years of technological advancement, they specifically orchestrated all the tech produced in this Cycle be a byproduct of theirs.  Its controllable, and easy to adapt to.  

Which is why Thanix Cannons are not the super miracle crutch that will save the fleet.  A hard revise of the entire trilogy is needed to make a conventional victory possible as an outcome, and not many people will be happy with having more of their choices in ME1 and ME2 scrapped to build a plot centered around killing the old Council to put a new Council irregardless of your ethical views, to prepare for the Reapers with flimsy and circumstantial evidence.  Or handing the Collector Base to Cerberus and putting Cerberus in the jurisdiction of the combined Council authority to produce weapons and technology instead of Reaper control.

Several changes and upgrades are needed, and with ME3 the way it is, it is not possible for a conventional victory unless half the Reapers decide to say **** you to the consensus and attack themselves.  

Major worlds, yes.  But there are Thousands of Major worlds and colonies.  The Geth are even known for putting space stations in the middle of empty space to avoid detection.  So the reapers don’t have a lock on the galaxy, they just focused on the most populated centers.  We know they’ve taken losses too, especially since we inflicted at least 3 our selves.  In the opening salvo at Earth a reaper was taken out so they had to have sustained pretty heavy losses themselves.  Losses they can’t really replace the way the alliance can.



No, that wasn’t all of what was left of Sword and Shield, just what Bioware chose to show of it.  They didn’t even show all of the fleet arriving… which really annoyed me at the time.  I saw a lot of alliance ships, and some Assari and Quarian.  Where were all the geth ships?  and Batarian and Solarian, and The Mercenaries?  I didn’t see Volus, Elcor Hanar or Drell ships either.  Unless they ALL look identical.  No Bioware Just didn’t show a significant portion of the ships.  They also didn’t say how many ships left while we weren’t looking.  Those last ships to leave could have been the remains of Shield.  Sword could have pulled out once the Crucible docked, or still been engaged in the fight.  They don’t say who that was or how many ships were left.





I would base my ships yards around the Geth.  You put it between star systems.  Unless you know where to look, you won’t be able to find them.  There are a limited number of reapers.  Pacifying earth would take centuries or thousands of reapers, and that’s true for ever major planet.  Now, they could split their forces up to search for those ship yards, but a reaper by it’s self isn’t going to last long against the fleet if they do find them, and each reaper down is an entire species worth of harvests destroyed.  Anderson was also doing Guerilla warfare.  Scattered and fighting on their own, yes they’ll loose.  They’re fighting the reapers where they’re the strongest, on their home worlds.  Change tactics and pick off lone reapers on more isolated systems and you could wear them down.

Reapers are stronger, but not invulnerable.  As I said, in the opening salvo at earth one gets destroyed almost immediately.  A Sovereign class.  The prothians had a weapon that could have been easily used to taken them out with a single shot.  One of those mini-mass Relays they used for the conduit would likely have more than enough punch to blow a reaper to pieces if a full sized one could take out a star system.  Also, no, the reapers aren’t millions of years more advanced.  They have never advanced.  They are using the same technology they used against the prothians, and almost certainly same they used against the cycle before that.  They’re advanced, yes, but stagnant.

 
 

That hard revise could come in the form of Leviathan, but you wouldn’t need a hard revise, you’d just need to continue the story.  Lets say you did loose most of the fleet at earth.  The reapers took losses too, we saw it in the cinematic, we even killed on our selves.  So where do you go from there?  Well, start off on the citadel.  It was just recently taken, most of the aliens living there will still be alive and un-indoctrinated.  Show a resistance taking place.  Sheppard is in the control center, have him help those resistance fighters.  Have the citadel turn it’s powerful guns on the reapers.  How many Reapers would be lost trying to re-take the citadel?  Sword and shield could be the hammer against he citadel anvil.  Without the keepers or Cerberus giving the citadel to them, the reapers only option might be to destroy it, which wouldn’t be easy.  Develop the micro relay missile.  Conventional weapons work too.  Find new support, decrypt more Prothian data, build forces and kill reapers when ever possible.

Could you not see a 4th game set during this desperate fighting? Shepard out of commission but new heros stepping forward to resist?  It’s no impossible.

Modifié par Ukomba, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:44 .

[Archonsg]

ThaDPG wrote...

Archonsg wrote...I am going to quote part of a speech by a comedian from a movie that for most was made before your parents were born :"We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves inMachinery that gives abundance has left us in wantOur knowledge has made us cynicalOur cleverness hard and unkindWe think too much, and feel too littleMore than machinery, we need humanityMore than cleverness, we need kindness and gentlenessWithout these qualities life will be violentAnd all will be lost"Synthesis is abhorrent, in that it takes away individuality and diversity. Refusal, is in essence, a declaration that one will not quietly accept suicide and solutions that were born from fear, murder, betrayal and intolerance, putting instead one's faith in humanity, unity and friends. Too bad the writers decided that such ideals deserves nothing but failure and death.

I would be a refuser and not a destroyer if refusal had some kind of pay off with a high enough EMS, instead of automatically condemning everyone and everything in the whole galaxy to a horrible death

As is intended by team Walters and Hudson. Nevermind this is a game and that EMS should have meant something towards a victory through Refusal.

In fact, it would have made more sense if your EMS did allow you to win since after all, those were MILITARY ASSETS, and logically, if you have enough, the should garner a victory. As someone has already pointed out, why is it so hard to believe that if you had enough EMS, a victory via military means is not feasible while "magically" appearing alive after being blown up in high orbit in space without a functional EVA suit, is?

Walters and Hudson wrote the story to give us no way out unless you accept their brand of illogical, and definitely Renegade-ish path. People should see this but because they want to grasp that straw that is the "Breath scene" choose a "lesser evil".

And that saddens me.

[ThaDPG]

Not having Shepard as the main character would not bother me in the slightest, if we get a continuation to the ME story, instead of a prequel

[Segameister]

I anwsered yes to the poll, but it's completely unrealistic to expect more than what we recieved. I hated the original ending, I like the EC well enough (answered questions) to accept it for what it is.

[ThaDPG]

Archonsg wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

Archonsg wrote...I am going to quote part of a speech by a comedian from a movie that for most was made before your parents were born :"We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves inMachinery that gives abundance has left us in wantOur knowledge has made us cynicalOur cleverness hard and unkindWe think too much, and feel too littleMore than machinery, we need humanityMore than cleverness, we need kindness and gentlenessWithout these qualities life will be violentAnd all will be lost"Synthesis is abhorrent, in that it takes away individuality and diversity. Refusal, is in essence, a declaration that one will not quietly accept suicide and solutions that were born from fear, murder, betrayal and intolerance, putting instead one's faith in humanity, unity and friends. Too bad the writers decided that such ideals deserves nothing but failure and death.

I would be a refuser and not a destroyer if refusal had some kind of pay off with a high enough EMS, instead of automatically condemning everyone and everything in the whole galaxy to a horrible death

As is intended by team Walters and Hudson. Nevermind this is a game and that EMS should have meant something towards a victory through Refusal.

In fact, it would have made more sense if your EMS did allow you to win since after all, those were MILITARY ASSETS, and logically, if you have enough, the should garner a victory. As someone has already pointed out, why is it so hard to believe that if you had enough EMS, a victory via military means is not feasible while "magically" appearing alive after being blown up in high orbit in space without a functional EVA suit, is?

Walters and Hudson wrote the story to give us no way out unless you accept their brand of illogical, and definitely Renegade-ish path. People should see this but because they want to grasp that straw that is the "Breath scene" choose a "lesser evil".

And that saddens me.

I completely agree, the way they have it now, EMS is almost completely useless, you dont even get extra scenes or cinematics, no matter how much you have.  One of the more disappointing parts of the whole game, besides the ending choices of course

[Ukomba]

ThaDPG wrote...

Not having Shepard as the main character would not bother me in the slightest, if we get a continuation to the ME story, instead of a prequel

You don't want a Mass Effect: Reach, er... Mass Effect: 314?

Segameister wrote...

I anwsered yes to the poll, but it's
completely unrealistic to expect more than what we recieved. I hated
the original ending, I like the EC well enough (answered questions) to
accept it for what it is.

Not unrealistic to see it in a paid DLC.  Probubly not Leviathan but if they keep releasing DLC that raises our War Assets then a conventional victory could eventualy be possible.

Modifié par Ukomba, 30 juillet 2012 - 07:02 .

[Blueprotoss]

Ukomba wrote...

Not to mention most of their leaders would have been taken immediately. 
If your emperor is indoctrinated and starts giving bad orders, it could be massively
damaging before anyone steps in to stop it.  Also the Citadel would have
been full of information.  The reapers would have known where everything
was, how strong they were, and what their weaknesses were.  The Prothians
might have been able to win, in a stand up fight, but they didn't get the same
chance Shepards cycle did.  Even so, they
lasted centuries.

The Reapers are vulnerable for the same reason the Protians
were vulnerable.  They have a single
tactic and really aren’t good at adapting. 
A single loss is also devastating to them since their ability to replace
lost ships is minimal, they have to risk more ships in a massive harvesting
effort to even attempt to create a single new ship.  Once the reapers start loosing, their done,
they can’t replenish their numbers, they can’t change their tactics, and their
technology doesn’t advance.  It’s very
clear that the longer a war drags out, the worse it goes for them.  This reality shows in their tactics.  They have to over whelm immediately.

If they actualy played the 4th ending out, the aliance could have eventualy devleoped stronger weapons, pulled hit and run surpise attacks,and built up foces to the point where they could win.  The prothians devleoped a way to detect indoctrinated people, and they had just inveted mass relay technology.  Compact mass realay technology.  Imagine a mini-relay like that mounted in a warhead.

Ironically the Reaper tactics revolve around overwhelming thier greater numbers and technologies over billions of years in reaping each cycle, which the Leviathan of Dis is one of the examples for their long life spans.  The Protheans survived centuries by sacraficing the lower species to buy time from their eventual extinctions.  A conventional victory against the Reapers isn't possible like the Flood in Halo, Lambent in Gears, Zerg in Starcraft, or Skynet in Terminator.

[Blueprotoss]

Ukomba wrote...

Segameister wrote...

I anwsered yes to the poll, but it's
completely unrealistic to expect more than what we recieved. I hated
the original ending, I like the EC well enough (answered questions) to
accept it for what it is.

Not unrealistic to see it in a paid DLC.  Probubly not Leviathan but if they keep releasing DLC that raises our War Assets then a conventional victory could eventualy be possible.

Its unrealistic to expect a new ending just like how some people wanted the EC to do that. The DLC is most likely going be pre-ending with a few post-ending.

[Blueprotoss]

ThaDPG wrote...

As is intended by team Walters and Hudson. Nevermind this is a game and that EMS should have meant something towards a victory through Refusal.

In fact, it would have made more sense if your EMS did allow you to win since after all, those were MILITARY ASSETS, and logically, if you have enough, the should garner a victory. As someone has already pointed out, why is it so hard to believe that if you had enough EMS, a victory via military means is not feasible while "magically" appearing alive after being blown up in high orbit in space without a functional EVA suit, is?

Walters and Hudson wrote the story to give us no way out unless you accept their brand of illogical, and definitely Renegade-ish path. People should see this but because they want to grasp that straw that is the "Breath scene" choose a "lesser evil".

And that saddens me.

The EMS is built around the Crucible being a weapon not the effectiveness of the armada protecting it.  The irony here is that the only illogical points are complaining about what Bioware wants to do when its their IP and demanding what you want based on your ppersonal opinion.

[incinerator950]

Ukomba wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Ukomba wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

kopfentot wrote...

I think they could have added a scene with a cruel massacre, and dramatic death of your companions. But in no way you should be able to defeat the reapers conventionally, the protheans who apparently were more advanced than the current cycle couldn't so there's no reason races in this cycle should be able.

But the protheans also didn't have a whole united galaxy behind them

The Protheans did have a united galaxy behind them but those races were tried as slaves.

Or moved on up from slaves to just members of the Empire.  Regardless of their status, the important problem is the Prothean Empire was cut off because of the Citadel.  I'm assuming the heart of the Empire also had a large defense force in position, likely wiped out when the Reapers poured throught the Darkspace Relay.  Even better, the actual communications and Relay blackouts that would segment force responses.  

Oh, and the constant battles of attritian leading to the high number of indoctrinated beings.

Not to mention most of their leaders would have been taken immediately. 
If your emperor is indoctrinated and starts giving bad orders, it could be massively
damaging before anyone steps in to stop it.  Also the Citadel would have
been full of information.  The reapers would have known where everything
was, how strong they were, and what their weaknesses were.  The Prothians
might have been able to win, in a stand up fight, but they didn't get the same
chance Shepards cycle did.  Even so, they
lasted centuries.

 

The Reapers are vulnerable for the same reason the Protians
were vulnerable.  They have a single
tactic and really aren’t good at adapting. 
A single loss is also devastating to them since their ability to replace
lost ships is minimal, they have to risk more ships in a massive harvesting
effort to even attempt to create a single new ship.  Once the reapers start loosing, their done,
they can’t replenish their numbers, they can’t change their tactics, and their
technology doesn’t advance.  It’s very
clear that the longer a war drags out, the worse it goes for them.  This reality shows in their tactics.  They have to over whelm immediately.

If they actualy played the 4th ending out, the aliance could have eventualy devleoped stronger weapons, pulled hit and run surpise attacks,and built up foces to the point where they could win.  The prothians devleoped a way to detect indoctrinated people, and they had just inveted mass relay technology.  Compact mass realay technology.  Imagine a mini-relay like that mounted in a warhead.

If you expanded the Destroy and Control endings, you would have saw that every other major world was being occupied and attacked by the Reapers (mainly Asari, Turian, and Krogan).  The fleet at the end of Destruction is whats left after the Reapers paused during the firing of the Crucible.  Its safe to say there are more Reapers the what was left of Sword and Shield.

Also, even if you pull out of Sol or somehow managed to survive, where are your shipyards?  Most of them are being destroyed, you might not get the chance to refit and rebuild.  Reaper losses are staggering compared to other Cycles, but they have the numbers and patience to take them, we don't.  We don't have the production to match the Reaper offensive.  The 4th ending can't be expanded on to some Guerilla War because the Asari have been doing it throughout the game, and failed.  Building stronger weapons isn't going to work, the Reapers are stronger in everyway, they not only have had millions of years of technological advancement, they specifically orchestrated all the tech produced in this Cycle be a byproduct of theirs.  Its controllable, and easy to adapt to.  

Which is why Thanix Cannons are not the super miracle crutch that will save the fleet.  A hard revise of the entire trilogy is needed to make a conventional victory possible as an outcome, and not many people will be happy with having more of their choices in ME1 and ME2 scrapped to build a plot centered around killing the old Council to put a new Council irregardless of your ethical views, to prepare for the Reapers with flimsy and circumstantial evidence.  Or handing the Collector Base to Cerberus and putting Cerberus in the jurisdiction of the combined Council authority to produce weapons and technology instead of Reaper control.

Several changes and upgrades are needed, and with ME3 the way it is, it is not possible for a conventional victory unless half the Reapers decide to say **** you to the consensus and attack themselves.  

Major worlds, yes.  But there are Thousands of Major worlds and colonies.  The Geth are even known for putting space stations in the middle of empty space to avoid detection.  So the reapers don’t have a lock on the galaxy, they just focused on the most populated centers.  We know they’ve taken losses too, especially since we inflicted at least 3 our selves.  In the opening salvo at Earth a reaper was taken out so they had to have sustained pretty heavy losses themselves.  Losses they can’t really replace the way the alliance can.


No, that wasn’t all of what was left of Sword and Shield, just what Bioware chose to show of it.  They didn’t even show all of the fleet arriving… which really annoyed me at the time.  I saw a lot of alliance ships, and some Assari and Quarian.  Where were all the geth ships?  and Batarian and Solarian, and The Mercenaries?  I didn’t see Volus, Elcor Hanar or Drell ships either.  Unless they ALL look identical.  No Bioware Just didn’t show a significant portion of the ships.  They also didn’t say how many ships left while we weren’t looking.  Those last ships to leave could have been the remains of Shield.  Sword could have pulled out once the Crucible docked, or still been engaged in the fight.  They don’t say who that was or how many ships were left.

I would base my ships yards around the Geth.  You put it between star systems.  Unless you know where to look, you won’t be able to find them.  There are a limited number of reapers.  Pacifying earth would take centuries or thousands of reapers, and that’s true for ever major planet.  Now, they could split their forces up to search for those ship yards, but a reaper by it’s self isn’t going to last long against the fleet if they do find them, and each reaper down is an entire species worth of harvests destroyed.  Anderson was also doing Guerilla warfare.  Scattered and fighting on their own, yes they’ll loose.  They’re fighting the reapers where they’re the strongest, on their home worlds.  Change tactics and pick off lone reapers on more isolated systems and you could wear them down.

Reapers are stronger, but not invulnerable.  As I said, in the opening salvo at earth one gets destroyed almost immediately.  A Sovereign class.  The prothians had a weapon that could have been easily used to taken them out with a single shot.  One of those mini-mass Relays they used for the conduit would likely have more than enough punch to blow a reaper to pieces if a full sized one could take out a star system.  Also, no, the reapers aren’t millions of years more advanced.  They have never advanced.  They are using the same technology they used against the prothians, and almost certainly same they used against the cycle before that.  They’re advanced, yes, but stagnant.

That hard revise could come in the form of Leviathan, but you wouldn’t need a hard revise, you’d just need to continue the story.  Lets say you did loose most of the fleet at earth.  The reapers took losses too, we saw it in the cinematic, we even killed on our selves.  So where do you go from there?  Well, start off on the citadel.  It was just recently taken, most of the aliens living there will still be alive and un-indoctrinated.  Show a resistance taking place.  Sheppard is in the control center, have him help those resistance fighters.  Have the citadel turn it’s powerful guns on the reapers.  How many Reapers would be lost trying to re-take the citadel?  Sword and shield could be the hammer against he citadel anvil.  Without the keepers or Cerberus giving the citadel to them, the reapers only option might be to destroy it, which wouldn’t be easy.  Develop the micro relay missile.  Conventional weapons work too.  Find new support, decrypt more Prothian data, build forces and kill reapers when ever possible.

Could you not see a 4th game set during this desperate fighting? Shepard out of commission but new heros stepping forward to resist?  It’s no impossible.

One wasn't destroyed immidiatly, the Reaper over Earth had its tendrels blown off and its Barriers knocked out, it was still turning and fighting going down.  By the end of the battle, Hacket pulled Sword to help defend the Crucible.  You're trying to defend your point, but the endings are pretty clear, there are more Reapers than Council ships.  That alone is the problem, you cannot rebuild fast enough to replace them. 

What powerful guns?  The Citadel is barely armed, enough to perhaps stave off boarding, but that obviously isn't going to work against the Reapers.  The Citadel's strength is closing itself, otherwise it needs a defensive fleet to work. 

Please stop pretending Guerilla Warfare is good against a superior enemy.  90% of these engagements win the war by making the enemy pull out and give up, not routed and destroyed.  Anderson was using Guerilla warfare to keep his forces organized and fighting to delay the Reapers.  These are delaying tactics, you are not presenting viable solutions to Repair, Arm, and constuct weapons and vehicles of War.

Its fairly obvious from the Leviathan datamine that if they do add it, that the only thing added might be Leviathan itself trying to help you, which is almost farfetched.  Oh, and then there's the history dialogue you'll have about the Leviathans themselves with the Catalyst, but what is that going to change?  DLC didn't change game cutscenes and ending gameplay in any of the other MEs or DA, why is it now?

If you're serious about the ships that are not present, don't count them.  What you see is what you get.  They're just EMS numbers, and the ships surviving in the Destruction ending are what you get. Minus a few stranded or flung off like the Normandy, but its highly unlikely that there are a significant number.  Its also unlikely the Salarians have backup fleets enough to challenge every Reaper, when your own forces couldn't defeat the Reaper Defense over Earth.

Like I said, Conventional war will be possible when this plot is written to accept it.  It is not now, nor will it be with DLC without the Crucible.  

Edit:  I forgot to mention something.  You do realize the Reapers destroy Industrial planets instead of capturing and processing them unless they're their homeworld (major Harvest)?  Do you not realize you're throwing all you have to defend your own planets for this Crucible?

Modifié par incinerator950, 30 juillet 2012 - 07:31 .

[Ukomba]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Ukomba wrote...

Not to mention most of their leaders would have been taken immediately. 
If your emperor is indoctrinated and starts giving bad orders, it could be massively
damaging before anyone steps in to stop it.  Also the Citadel would have
been full of information.  The reapers would have known where everything
was, how strong they were, and what their weaknesses were.  The Prothians
might have been able to win, in a stand up fight, but they didn't get the same
chance Shepards cycle did.  Even so, they
lasted centuries.

The Reapers are vulnerable for the same reason the Protians
were vulnerable.  They have a single
tactic and really aren’t good at adapting. 
A single loss is also devastating to them since their ability to replace
lost ships is minimal, they have to risk more ships in a massive harvesting
effort to even attempt to create a single new ship.  Once the reapers start loosing, their done,
they can’t replenish their numbers, they can’t change their tactics, and their
technology doesn’t advance.  It’s very
clear that the longer a war drags out, the worse it goes for them.  This reality shows in their tactics.  They have to over whelm immediately.

If they actualy played the 4th ending out, the aliance could have eventualy devleoped stronger weapons, pulled hit and run surpise attacks,and built up foces to the point where they could win.  The prothians devleoped a way to detect indoctrinated people, and they had just inveted mass relay technology.  Compact mass realay technology.  Imagine a mini-relay like that mounted in a warhead.

Ironically the Reaper tactics revolve around overwhelming thier greater numbers and technologies over billions of years in reaping each cycle, which the Leviathan of Dis is one of the examples for their long life spans.  The Protheans survived centuries by sacraficing the lower species to buy time from their eventual extinctions.  A conventional victory against the Reapers isn't possible like the Flood in Halo, Lambent in Gears, Zerg in Starcraft, or Skynet in Terminator.

That's the same as the turians tactics, they even said so.  Which is great for an initial assault, but it's a little like the British lining up into even ranks and firing in waves.  When over whelming an adversary caught in the open, that's fine, but tactics drawing ships away and ambushing them, hit and runs, ext, and those tactics start falling apart.  Technology for the allies has advanced quite a bit between ME1 and ME3.  Previously, several ships pounding away could barely scratch sovereign.  In ME3, A Reaper goes down in a few seconds during the opening fight for Earth.

How the Prothians survived doesn't really matter.  They were decapitated before the fight even started.  You can't say, well they lost so we can't win.   In an empire, mostly at piece, you wouldn't even need a large standing military, or to put much money into weapon technology since there's no one left to fight.  Arguably, The current cycle would have beater weapons since they clash back and forth so much, driving innovation and the build up of armed forces.  

Aren't all those examples of unbeatable enemies quickly re-producing creatures?   In each case, every enemy you kill is quickly replaced by another and another.  Doesn't matter how many terminators you kill, there's a factory mass producing them down the street.  Rearpers have very limited production capabilities.  Sure husks can be mass produced, but they can be slaughtered just as easily, and every husk is a resource not put towards creating one of those hard to build reapers.

[Archonsg]

That is the other thing that is wrong with the current ending as it is. ME4 will be set several hundred years into the future. So it does not matter if Bioware created totally divergent endings favoring Paragon or Renegade paths taken by the player. Shepard's story is done. We'll get a new one, a new beginning, a new hero or heroine, with new enemies and back story. So why insist on breaking Shepard, why kill his character, his personality, his soul?

Hubris?
Disdain for their fan base?
Or just simply because they wanted to hog the lime light, to upstage their own core writers and do something different?

What I got from all this is that team Walters and Hudson felt threatened, felt hurt that their original dark and nihilistic vision wasn't applauded and instead of asking themselves why this is so, and why fans are angry, choose instead to take the opportunity to belittle, insult and essentially say to the fans "So be it. Screw you!"

Whether this was intentional or not (from every indication, I do believe it was) matters little, because I am not alone in feeling that it was. As the saying goes, where's there is smoke there's usually a fire.

So all in all, all this hss changed my perception of BioWare. It used to be this company who were staffed by gamers making games that they themselves want to play and more importantly, were highly critical of their own games.

Ray, Greg, how could you, if you had actually played the game and experienced that original ending go "Yeah, that is awesome, we are going to defend that."

[Archonsg]

Blueprotoss wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

As is intended by team Walters and Hudson. Nevermind this is a game and that EMS should have meant something towards a victory through Refusal.

In fact, it would have made more sense if your EMS did allow you to win since after all, those were MILITARY ASSETS, and logically, if you have enough, the should garner a victory. As someone has already pointed out, why is it so hard to believe that if you had enough EMS, a victory via military means is not feasible while "magically" appearing alive after being blown up in high orbit in space without a functional EVA suit, is?

Walters and Hudson wrote the story to give us no way out unless you accept their brand of illogical, and definitely Renegade-ish path. People should see this but because they want to grasp that straw that is the "Breath scene" choose a "lesser evil".

And that saddens me.

The EMS is built around the Crucible being a weapon not the effectiveness of the armada protecting it.  The irony here is that the only illogical points are complaining about what Bioware wants to do when its their IP and demanding what you want based on your ppersonal opinion.

So,  tell me,  my 7000+ EMS (I have something like 14,000 EMS total) points from a single asset, which in game relates to N7 units, is not a military asset and is now by your account a scientific one? 

[incinerator950]

Archonsg wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

As is intended by team Walters and Hudson. Nevermind this is a game and that EMS should have meant something towards a victory through Refusal.

In fact, it would have made more sense if your EMS did allow you to win since after all, those were MILITARY ASSETS, and logically, if you have enough, the should garner a victory. As someone has already pointed out, why is it so hard to believe that if you had enough EMS, a victory via military means is not feasible while "magically" appearing alive after being blown up in high orbit in space without a functional EVA suit, is?

Walters and Hudson wrote the story to give us no way out unless you accept their brand of illogical, and definitely Renegade-ish path. People should see this but because they want to grasp that straw that is the "Breath scene" choose a "lesser evil".

And that saddens me.

The EMS is built around the Crucible being a weapon not the effectiveness of the armada protecting it.  The irony here is that the only illogical points are complaining about what Bioware wants to do when its their IP and demanding what you want based on your ppersonal opinion.

So,  tell me,  my 7000+ EMS (I have something like 14,000 EMS total) points from a single asset, which in game relates to N7 units, is not a military asset and is now by your account a scientific one? 

They're just points on a single point scoreboard.  For a more accurate explanation, there was a chart explaining the endings on availibility of the Reaper part you aqcuire from Cronos.  That detail is largely ignorable, but the Fleets and Hammer succeeding (more than failing) are based on High or Low EMS.  

So in reality, it doesn't matter what you have, so long as you (now) have 3100.  Which is why I don't do Fetch Quests anymore, I get so much from the Geth and Quarians with my N7 points.  

[AresKeith]

my thing is the refuse option should've worked around EMS,

[Blueprotoss]

Ukomba wrote...

That's the same as the turians tactics, they even said so.  Which is great for an initial assault, but it's a little like the British lining up into even ranks and firing in waves.  When over whelming an adversary caught in the open, that's fine, but tactics drawing ships away and ambushing them, hit and runs, ext, and those tactics start falling apart.  Technology for the allies has advanced quite a bit between ME1 and ME3.  Previously, several ships pounding away could barely scratch sovereign.  In ME3, A Reaper goes down in a few seconds during the opening fight for Earth.

The Turians tactics is to stand their ground and make their enemy work for it by receiving heavy loses, which Garrus and Victus mentioned its not remotely effective against the Reapers.  The British were defeated based on guerilla tactics, the lack of land knowledge/supplies, and dismissing the French being helpful to America.  There's a huge gap between the Reapers and everyone else in technology based on how Reapers have the most advanced tech because of their resorces in the time department.

Ukomba wrote... 

How the Prothians survived doesn't really matter.  They were decapitated before the fight even started.  You can't say, well they lost so we can't win.   In an empire, mostly at piece, you wouldn't even need a large standing military, or to put much money into weapon technology since there's no one left to fight.  Arguably, The current cycle would have beater weapons since they clash back and forth so much, driving innovation and the build up of armed forces.

If the Protheans were dead from the start then they wouldn't have lasted as long, but you shouldn't expect this cycle should win in a conventional route based solely on the Protheans.

Ukomba wrote... 

Aren't all those examples of unbeatable enemies quickly re-producing creatures?   In each case, every enemy you kill is quickly replaced by another and another.  Doesn't matter how many terminators you kill, there's a factory mass producing them down the street.  Rearpers have very limited production capabilities.  Sure husks can be mass produced, but they can be slaughtered just as easily, and every husk is a resource not put towards creating one of those hard to build reapers.

Yes they are examples of unbeatable enemies quickly re-producing creatures, which is why you can't win conventionally against a numbers game when you're basically extinct.  An example of a real life number game threat with a lot of tech that makes the US scared is China while thats not the perfect example while its close enough.  A million man army with a huge popuation and a lot of advanced tech can do wonders for you.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 30 juillet 2012 - 08:06 .

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

my thing is the refuse option should've worked around EMS,

Yet it didn't and you can't refuse until the end after you collect enough resources to use the Crucible.

[AresKeith]

Blueprotoss wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

my thing is the refuse option should've worked around EMS,

Yet it didn't and you can't refuse until the end after you collect enough resources to use the Crucible.

I didn't say anything about not using the Crucible

[AlanC9]

Ukomba wrote...
If they actualy played the 4th ending out, the aliance could have eventualy devleoped stronger weapons, pulled hit and run surpise attacks,

Why do so many people keep saying the Alliance would be able to use hit-and-run surprise attacks against the Reapers? If anything, it's the Reapers who could do that against the Citadel races. The Reapers are the side that doesn't need to defend anything, because they don't have any bases.