712 réponses à ce sujet

[mauro2222]

Seival wrote...

No, Greylycantrope. You are just too indecisive to accept the endings... No offence.

ME Trilogy and its ending is Masterpiece. And in time everyone will understand that.

Are you high or something?

[psrz]

Seival wrote...

No, Greylycantrope. You are just too indecisive to accept the endings... No offence.

ME Trilogy and its ending is Masterpiece. And in time everyone will understand that.

roflmao!   2deep4u ™

Why took you so long  ?

[Terraforming2154]

ZLurps wrote...

Terraforming2154 wrote...
I feel like this would have been the best compromise.
The Crucible should have been used as a way to weaken the Reapers and the EMS should have been effectively used to finish them off.

I also think the Catalyst should have been something other than what it was. Maybe something simple - just a way to understand how to use the Crucible, rather than a rogue AI with three choices.

Oh how I wish people would read more posts in threads before they reply.

Crusible is unnecessary and IMO it's even silly. Say Crusible were used like you say. Then we would be here debating how damn silly it's that the ultimate war machines, whatever, are stupid enough not to move Citadel away from Crusible even if the Catalyst were so damn helpless that it can't close a back door.

I never suggested that moving the Citadel wasn't a huge contrivance, because it was.

I'm not even saying that I like the Crucible plot device or how it was introduced and implemented, but I still think it could have been handled a lot better than it was in the finished product.

[mango smoothie]

Skirata129 wrote...

What do you do when you first begin a war and the opposing side approaches your lines holding a civilian as a human shield?

EDIT: then you just go with plan B, stage the fake assault, fall back in what appears to be a route, and ram the relay on the edge of the system with the Reaper fleet in tow. Provided this doesn't work and not enough of the Reapers are close enough to ensure incineration, have the rest of the fleet waiting the travel through to the Sol system in formation and hit the now disorganized pursuing force.

Yes because the reapers are stupid enough to follow us to the Charon relay after we just tried to destroy the Citadel. Plus I don't think the reapers would even pursue the fleet under any circumstances. They're patient and I would think they would rather let the fleet go after they defeated them then take the risk of falling for a trap.I'm sorry but trying something like Arrival is just not a feasible plan to stop the reapers.

Listen I would've liked to seen a coventional victory against the reapers too, but only if they had from the very begininng wrote the story for that to happen. The current way the story is written just makes coventional victory impossible.

Modifié par mango smoothie, 17 juillet 2012 - 10:04 .

[Kamfrenchie]

taggen86 wrote...

Thore2k10 wrote...

jeffyg93 wrote...

No. It's pathetic how many people want conventional victory. Despite it NOT being possible within the game's lore, it would cheapen the Reapers, and the ending would be uninspired.

dont call us pathetic just because were not happy with how it turned out.. its absolutely possible to kill a reaper conventionaly.

i voted for yes because everything is better than what we got. besides they said that there wont be a "giant reaper off switch" witch i actually hoped would be genuine...

HOW is it possible to kill the reaper armada conventionally? Tell me cause I would like to know:)

lots of cains for everyone

[ZLurps]

Terraforming2154 wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Terraforming2154 wrote...
I feel like this would have been the best compromise.
The Crucible should have been used as a way to weaken the Reapers and the EMS should have been effectively used to finish them off.

I also think the Catalyst should have been something other than what it was. Maybe something simple - just a way to understand how to use the Crucible, rather than a rogue AI with three choices.

Oh how I wish people would read more posts in threads before they reply.

Crusible is unnecessary and IMO it's even silly. Say Crusible were used like you say. Then we would be here debating how damn silly it's that the ultimate war machines, whatever, are stupid enough not to move Citadel away from Crusible even if the Catalyst were so damn helpless that it can't close a back door.

I never suggested that moving the Citadel wasn't a huge contrivance, because it was.

I'm not even saying that I like the Crucible plot device or how it was introduced and implemented, but I still think it could have been handled a lot better than it was in the finished product.

For now it looks like that and perhaps many would be happy if Crusible shot some sort of beam that disabled Reaper nanides.

However, last chapters of ME3 are something so incoherent, that to make story really work... it would take much more than conventional victory. People put their focus on RGB and that Shepard dies in perhaps but Red ending but there are other issues and fixing one, wouldn't solve others, instead people would start noticing other issues.

What is very sad about it, is that there were no need to create Crusible to begin with. Everything needed to make a plausible scenario for winning the war in plausible way, finding a piece that would tip the scale, was already in ME lore.

[Haiyato]

Calinstel wrote...

Haiyato wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

taggen86 wrote...

You guys seriously need to replay the end of ME1. It took the ENTIRE CITADEL FLEET to take down one sovereign class reaper. The end of ME2 reveals that there are at least 200 of these. The only reapers shepard took down in me3 were the very small destroyers.

Conventional victory do not make sense without space magic.

With all due respect, it is not I who needs to redo the ending of ME1.
The geth engaged the Citadel fleet, not Sovereign.
Sovereign did swat one turian vessel (unsure if it was a cruiser or dreadnaught) but that was all.
Also, in the battle of the Alliance ships with Sovereign, only 8 cruisers were destroyed.  No dreadnaughts.  So, the battle was not so one sided as it seems.

Well according to the Wiki, a dreadnought (SSV Logan) only slowed a Reaper destroyer down.  And we lost the SSV Shasta in the Horse Head Nebula during a fight. The second, fourth, and fifth fleets are destroyed. I am assuming the three dreadnoughts are toast as well. Thats 4 dreadnoughts gone because there is no mention of the capital ships surviving from these three. We also don't know how many dreadnoughts were lost from the other council species. I don't know a conventional win would even work if they attack in a group. Fleet versus one yes.

http://masseffect.wi...i/Alliance_Navy

The codex states 1 cruiser can take out a Reaper destroyer as well.
Funny, the codex used to actually make some sense.  Now, it's what part of it you read that you believe in.

 But honestly one vs one no problem I believe we can win no problem. But a fleet vs fleet nope. Because if that was the case, the Reapers would have had a hard time getting past the First, second, third, fourth and fifth fleets since they were are station around Arturus station which is near the Charon Relay, well at least that is what I gathered from the wiki. Considering that the First Fleet is the Alliance's largest fleet which lost about 10% of its ships at the cost of sacrificing the entire second fleet and so on.

[ZLurps]

Calinstel wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

taggen86 wrote...

You guys seriously need to replay the end of ME1. It took the ENTIRE CITADEL FLEET to take down one sovereign class reaper. The end of ME2 reveals that there are at least 200 of these. The only reapers shepard took down in me3 were the very small destroyers.

Conventional victory do not make sense without space magic.

With all due respect, it is not I who needs to redo the ending of ME1.
The geth engaged the Citadel fleet, not Sovereign.
Sovereign did swat one turian vessel (unsure if it was a cruiser or dreadnaught) but that was all.
Also, in the battle of the Alliance ships with Sovereign, only 8 cruisers were destroyed.  No dreadnaughts.  So, the battle was not so one sided as it seems.

Edit... I was too hasty.

Only 8 cruisers were destroyed, and that's because Sovereign's shields went down, not because fleet was firing it, but because what happened in Citadel when Sovereign tried open the Citadel relay.

All I ask for is proof.  Otherwise, it's just speculation.

I think it's very clearly implied in ME1, I never saw serious possibility to interpret it any other way but here you go.


http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Sovereign

"In a bid to stop Shepard, Sovereign reanimated Saren through the cybernetic implants in his cadaver and linked his consciousness to it. Sovereign then attempted to destroy Shepard and the squad inside the Citadel Tower with the avatar, while simultaneously devastating the Alliance Fifth Fleet in the space battle outside. Upon the destruction of its avatar, the signal that linked to Sovereign became corrupted and caused Sovereign's shields to shut down."

I'm not sure if that only sources for Codex or Twitter. I can't find a link now, but someone from ME team tweet before ME3 was released, that Sovereign alone were decimated about every ship in fifth and Citadel defence fleet, if it's shields werent over loaded when robo-Saren avatar was destroyed.


Codex:
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Sovereign

"Sovereign's mission -- to open a mass relay that would transport the other Reapers from dark space -- proved its undoing. During the Battle of the Citadel, Sovereign linked its consciousness to Saren's. When Saren's death
corrupted the signal and shut down Sovereign's shields, Sovereign's destruction soon followed."

Modifié par ZLurps, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:01 .

[ZLurps]

Calinstel wrote...

Haiyato wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

taggen86 wrote...

You guys seriously need to replay the end of ME1. It took the ENTIRE CITADEL FLEET to take down one sovereign class reaper. The end of ME2 reveals that there are at least 200 of these. The only reapers shepard took down in me3 were the very small destroyers.

Conventional victory do not make sense without space magic.

With all due respect, it is not I who needs to redo the ending of ME1.
The geth engaged the Citadel fleet, not Sovereign.
Sovereign did swat one turian vessel (unsure if it was a cruiser or dreadnaught) but that was all.
Also, in the battle of the Alliance ships with Sovereign, only 8 cruisers were destroyed.  No dreadnaughts.  So, the battle was not so one sided as it seems.

Well according to the Wiki, a dreadnought (SSV Logan) only slowed a Reaper destroyer down.  And we lost the SSV Shasta in the Horse Head Nebula during a fight. The second, fourth, and fifth fleets are destroyed. I am assuming the three dreadnoughts are toast as well. Thats 4 dreadnoughts gone because there is no mention of the capital ships surviving from these three. We also don't know how many dreadnoughts were lost from the other council species. I don't know a conventional win would even work if they attack in a group. Fleet versus one yes.

http://masseffect.wi...i/Alliance_Navy

The codex states 1 cruiser can take out a Reaper destroyer as well.
Funny, the codex used to actually make some sense.  Now, it's what part of it you read that you believe in.

You are cherry picking. Cite whole of the relevant entry.
"The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed."

We see destroyers three shots Alliance Dreadnought in the beginning of ME3. actually not sure if it's really destroyer and can't find solid info what it is atm.

Anyway, you know, I can kill a lion with a spear, if said lion is tied to the ground.

Modifié par ZLurps, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:08 .

[Hudathan]

flanny wrote...

I agree with you but bioware don't care about their fans anymore, they only care about their 'art'.

bioware will never make an ending better than their 'art'. at this point all you can do is headcanon

If you think caring about fans means only doing what fans specifically ask for, then you have literally zero perspective.

[xsdob]

I voted yes even though I like my endings and feel a conventional victory is a good move public wise but a stupid move in every other respect.

Why vote for it than if I am a more pro-ending leaning person and someone who thinks the current refuse ending is good enough?

Well, you guys got on my nerves, and if it'll make the negativity stop than I'll do anything at this point to make this place a good place to hang out and talk with others again.

Modifié par xsdob, 18 juillet 2012 - 12:17 .

[Iakus]

Hudathan wrote...

flanny wrote...

I agree with you but bioware don't care about their fans anymore, they only care about their 'art'.

bioware will never make an ending better than their 'art'. at this point all you can do is headcanon

If you think caring about fans means only doing what fans specifically ask for, then you have literally zero perspective.

Caring about fans means giving them a variety of endings for their Shepard.  

What we got was "You exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it"

[string3r]

Sorry, not artistic enough.

[Kamfrenchie]

Hudathan wrote...

flanny wrote...

I agree with you but bioware don't care about their fans anymore, they only care about their 'art'.

bioware will never make an ending better than their 'art'. at this point all you can do is headcanon

If you think caring about fans means only doing what fans specifically ask for, then you have literally zero perspective.

I think that however, making a bunch o promises and making th exact opposite means thy don't care bout their fan. Same for the inconsistent writing quality

[3DandBeyond]

Calinstel wrote...

The codex states 1 cruiser can take out a Reaper destroyer as well.
Funny, the codex used to actually make some sense.  Now, it's what part of it you read that you believe in.

The codex also outlines reaper vulnerabilities, states their shields are kinetic barriers, and kinetic barriers are not resistant to temperature, toxins, or radiation.

Reapers are more vulnerable when on a planet.  And Cains do appear to be effective.  And 2 missiles took down one reaper in London-EDI did the targeting, the missiles hit the reaper, the reaper was "coming down".  Reapers as well may lose some power if you keep diminishing their numbers-one by one even.  The geth seem to weaken when one is destroyed-I recall reading or hearing that in the game.  Maybe the reapers as well.

One derelict reaper was also boarded-send the geth with Cains into space out airlocks and direct them to reapers to try and board them and destroy them from the inside.  Since the geth have reaper code in them, the reapers might not see them as they apparently can see individual people.

Perhaps there might be some use in the Rachni singing or their ability to hear frequencies others cannot hear.  They might have been used to work on disrupting reaper communication and coordination of their attacks.

[AlanC9]

Skirata129 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

apparently because they only got to use it once. Also, yes, which is why detonating the relay seems a good idea. sacrifice the Sol system, take out the majority of the Reaper fleet in one blow.

If you can somehow manage to crash an asteroid into the relay without the Reapers seeing it coming, sure. Otherwise they just FTL out the moment it hits, and you've managed to destroy both the Catalyst and Earth. Which makes non-conventional victory as impossible as conventional victory.

who needs an asteroid? dreadnoughts are roughly the same size, right?

Destroying a relay would take a lot more than a couple of shots from a dreadnought, from what they say in Arrival.

Furthermore, it's an obvious form of attack. And it's pretty easy to defend against if you put a bunch of monitoring buoys around the relay. If they all go dark the relay's blown, but you've got several hours to get going before the blast hits you since the blast travels only at lightspeed.

And this is yet another wonder strategy to defeat the Reapers that actually would work better for the Reapers than for the Citadel races. If the Reapers were taking the Citadel fleets seriously the smart play would be to blow all the primaries themselves.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 juillet 2012 - 01:30 .

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Reapers as well may lose some power if you keep diminishing their numbers-one by one even.  The geth seem to weaken when one is destroyed-I recall reading or hearing that in the game.  Maybe the reapers as well.

Ummm... you do realize that the only way this sort of wishful thinking could work out is if Bio wanted it to, right?

[3DandBeyond]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

flanny wrote...

I agree with you but bioware don't care about their fans anymore, they only care about their 'art'.

bioware will never make an ending better than their 'art'. at this point all you can do is headcanon

If you think caring about fans means only doing what fans specifically ask for, then you have literally zero perspective.

I think that however, making a bunch o promises and making th exact opposite means thy don't care bout their fan. Same for the inconsistent writing quality

Bioware abandoned the story in ME3-the one that had been created in ME1.  They began with this: Unity through diversity to destroy the reapers.  They ended with this: Stop the inevitable conflict between synthetics and organics.

It's not even about only doing what fans ask for.  And it isn't even about keeping stated promises.

Artistic integrity was lost in ME3 because Bioware abandoned it.  The theme and setting and all within a story is a promise of sorts and nowhere is that more evident than in a series of stories.  You create a world, the hero, the foe, the theme and the goal and in order for you to maintain and claim artistic integrity, you maintain that "promise".

Fans of ME were clearly shown in ME1 and 2 that if they did "enough" then the impossible became possible.  This is the art Bioware created.  They also showed that even horrific foes could be defeated using ingenuity and fortitude and strategy and perseverance.  This is the art Bioware created.  This is the expectation and promise they made.  Bioware showed the hero could live if s/he did the "right" things (not did everything right but brought things together that were needed), and that in doing so, the effects of achievement played out.  This is the art Bioware created.

Fans are the ones that have been calling on Bioware to return to their art, to keep the promises made within the story.  Fans are not asking for the unreasonable-they are asking for a return to ME games and stories.

Bioware changed the type of story ME was-it would be like Taylor Swift deciding from now on to only sing reggae music.  Or Mick Jagger deciding the Stones should become an all kazoo band.

How about if ME3 had been said to be the fight to take Earth back and then it ended up being a bunch of pictures of people fighting and in each picture you get to find the reaper?  And then Bioware claimed that was their artistic vision.

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
Reapers as well may lose some power if you keep diminishing their numbers-one by one even.  The geth seem to weaken when one is destroyed-I recall reading or hearing that in the game.  Maybe the reapers as well.

Ummm... you do realize that the only way this sort of wishful thinking could work out is if Bio wanted it to, right?

No, I actually thought that by saying it I was changing what happened in the game. :innocent:

Yes, I know that.  I was stating what I wished might have happened.  Since I have no magical abilities, that is all I can do.

Considering the title of this thread, all of this is about wishful thinking.

[N7Gold]

Making conventional victory possible wouldn't make any sense, considering how much ships it took for the Alliance to take down Sovereign...

[Newtype Taichou]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

The codex states 1 cruiser can take out a Reaper destroyer as well.
Funny, the codex used to actually make some sense.  Now, it's what part of it you read that you believe in.

The codex also outlines reaper vulnerabilities, states their shields are kinetic barriers, and kinetic barriers are not resistant to temperature, toxins, or radiation.

Reapers are more vulnerable when on a planet.  And Cains do appear to be effective.  And 2 missiles took down one reaper in London-EDI did the targeting, the missiles hit the reaper, the reaper was "coming down".  Reapers as well may lose some power if you keep diminishing their numbers-one by one even.  The geth seem to weaken when one is destroyed-I recall reading or hearing that in the game.  Maybe the reapers as well.

One derelict reaper was also boarded-send the geth with Cains into space out airlocks and direct them to reapers to try and board them and destroy them from the inside.  Since the geth have reaper code in them, the reapers might not see them as they apparently can see individual people.

Perhaps there might be some use in the Rachni singing or their ability to hear frequencies others cannot hear.  They might have been used to work on disrupting reaper communication and coordination of their attacks.

Now these are some good alternatives, taking what has been established in the lore, all the way back fromm ME1 and giving them some significance. Using the Cains to attack the Reapers internally is a great idea. Now if only they thought of these ideas in ME2 so there would be a logical process to these solutions as well. Like maybe you help the Geth develop a way to infiltrate the Reapers. Or if the Crucible was instead introduced in ME2 as a weapon that coould take advantage of the Reaper's shield's vulnerabilities. Then in number 3 it would all feel developed rather tha rushed and thrown together because the previous game (ME2) did nothing  in terms of progression. 

Then imagine if you didn't play ME2? You wouldn't have the info regarding the Crucible, or maybe not enough which could have an effect. So much potential. 

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

Destroying a relay would take a lot more than a couple of shots from a dreadnought, from what they say in Arrival.

Furthermore, it's an obvious form of attack. And it's pretty easy to defend against if you put a bunch of monitoring buoys around the relay. If they all go dark the relay's blown, but you've got several hours to get going before the blast hits you since the blast travels only at lightspeed.

And this is yet another wonder strategy to defeat the Reapers that actually would work better for the Reapers than for the Citadel races. If the Reapers were taking the Citadel fleets seriously the smart play would be to blow all the primaries themselves.

Actually the fact the relays still function is another example of Bioware forgetting their own lore.  It's stated the first thing reapers do when starting a harvest is to shut down the relays to strand everyone.  They seem really forgetful in ME3, because they don't do this.